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padcrasher
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Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:12 am

Go thru these 14 signs of facism and ask yourself honestly if the USA is not heading down this sad path. The only one that does not apply in my opinion is #5.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media are directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media are indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 
JetJock22
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:17 am

Good lord are you still around? If the USA is headed down the road to facism, then I'm a damn proud Facist
 
rjpieces
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:18 am

I suppose the USA has been a fascist nation for the past century then. If that's the case, then I don't know of any country in the world that is well off.
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:23 am

While I agree with the basic analysis, the limitation to these tendencies is probably in the unwillingness of the majority of the US population to put up with such a course for the long haul.

There´s a clear authoritarian structure to the current political situation, but it´s already on its way out again as far as I can see. Even evil machinations don´t always succeed...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:28 am

JetJock22: If the USA is headed down the road to facism, then I'm a damn proud Facist

We´ve noticed... but you´ll probably get over it at some point...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:35 am

RJ perhaps you think the USA was always like this because this is all you've known in your short life?

I can tell you what made the US great and resepected around the World was it's promotion of human rights. It's promotion of free thought. Intellectuals thrived here. The military budget was a small part of the US budget. Domestic programs such as education funding and social security were successes. The US produced home grown Nobel Prize winners. Dissenters were not lumped in with terrorists. Corporate campaign contributions were a much smaller part of elections.

If you think these 14 points are what made the US great we are in deep deep trouble.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:37 am

Padcrasher, care to cite some specifics instead of just tossing out definitions . . . I'd be interested.

While I don't dispute that these are 14 signs of facism, I'd like to hear your examples. Otherwise continued conversation in this thread is a waste of everyone's time.

Regards
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:43 am

Klaus what makes you think trend will end? I see no evidence of it. The US media is only concerned with ratings, so you don't get a basic understanding of the issues. This is getting worse. The GOP is pushing for a phase out of public education to be replaced by various home shools/private schools were parents. (So their kids don't have to go to school with the poor kids) The GOP has slashed the IRS budgets and changed rules so that it is almost impossible to get caught cheating on taxes..

Maybe 15 years down the line people will wake up but nothing I see today makes me think things are getting better.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:44 am

I remember hearing the same rhetoric during Regan's 8 years. As a matter of fact I was the same age as Padcrasher and of the same political mindset during that time. Suffice it to say, I grew up. Perhaps Padcrasher will one day as well.

If indeed we were heading down that path of facisim, I would be very concerned about the remarks that you are making here on this forum and no doubt others. I suppose in '08' we will just see how facist this country really is.

Thomas
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:50 am

I may be wrong about this... but my impression is that many americans put up with it from a perspective of "Let´s try this out... maybe it helps."

The problem is that this tendency goes so much against the grain of what the USA stands for and - even more importantly - why they had been successful in the past. The one thing americans hate more than "communists" and "foreigners" is failure. And that´s why the "authoritarian revolution" will fail in the end, much to the dismay of its proponents.
 
ren41
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:54 am

Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Bush is a fashion designer and a fascist leader of the most power country in the world? Wow, he's one talented man.

Get a life.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:55 am

This are so easy #6

Michael Powell, Bush's tool at the FCC pushed to have rules removed on ownership limitations in the Media . For example Time Warner could own your local newspaper, your local radio station, your local TV station. They would all be allowed to get on the same page. Promoting each other back and forth. Remember when Clear Channel promoted a boycott of the Dixie Chicks nation wide on all their stations? Trying to destroy their careers for exercising their free speech?

Is this what we need in the US? Less independent voices? More corporate control of what we see and hear on TV?

Why on God's green earth was he pushing for this?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:04 am

klaus

You're giving the US too much credit. You don't understand the disdain the GOP has for education, social services, for what other Nations think. For having an different point of view. Government is bad. Foriegners are bad, including sissy Europeans. They want survival of the fittest. Dog eat dog.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:09 am

Padcrasher: The US media is only concerned with ratings

Ha Ha - and this is something NEW??? Something attributable to Dubya! Laughable. Ratings in the media have been the name of the game as long as I can remember.

Padcrasher: The GOP is pushing for a phase out of public education to be replaced by various home shools/private schools were parents

Care to share your insight here? Care to provide some source to support this line of thought?

Padcrasher: Remember when Clear Channel promoted a boycott of the Dixie Chicks nation wide on all their stations?

And just as many stations, more in fact, did not. Once again, this is Bush' fault? How? I boycotted them too, as is my right. Is it Dubya's fault that I boycotted them? I doubt it.

Padcrasher: Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Wake up! That's called patriotism. The Stars and Stripes have been flying over this land long before you, I or Dubya got here. How is this Bush turning the country Facist?

You really, really need to get a grip on things Padcrasher . . . you're commentary is laughable at best. But it does give me something to do today, so thank your for that . . . .


 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:13 am

Padcrasher: You're giving the US too much credit.

Maybe not...  Wink/being sarcastic

Padcrasher: You don't understand the disdain the GOP has for education, social services, for what other Nations think. For having an different point of view. Government is bad. Foriegners are bad, including sissy Europeans. They want survival of the fittest. Dog eat dog

Sure... The problem is they need popular support and a silent opposition to push their agenda through. They had that post 9/11, when too many americans believed obedience and aggression were a viable path to follow. Since then, it turned out this isn´t the case.

It´s the accumulating failures which erode their position, not a lack of resolve on their part.
 
JetJock22
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:22 am

"We´ve noticed... but you´ll probably get over it at some point..."

I wouldn't count on it Klaus. I think I'm destined to be a "facsist" for the long haul Big grin

Besides, if I wasn't, yall wouldn't have the pleasure of arguing with me.  Smile

[Edited 2005-02-12 21:23:42]
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:28 am

ANC follow slowly because you gone off on many tangents. Let me spell it out for you. I'll just address your first sentence.

"The media is only concerned about ratings" First I used this in another reply and was not part of the first 14 points. I do not hold Bush responsible for this.

You have a media afraid of challenging Bush's propoganda because it would lead to charges of "liberal bias" or at worse a snubbing by the Administration's Press department. This will effect their ratings so they let him slide.

Therefore we get "town hall" meetings where only Bush supporters are allowed to attend.
We get town hall meetings where those who oppose Bush are not screened but they solve this problem by not having a question period. Just Bush doing his thing and leaving.
We get interviews with Bush failing to answer questions and the reporter not challenging him. He's afraid of being "disrespectful".


 
dl021
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:36 am

I am so glad to have someone as smart as padcrasher to spell things out for us. I think I'll put you on my RU list.

Gosh, can you tell me how to help defeat these evil fascists?

Come up with specific examples of each of your 14 for the Republican administrations and I will come up with an equal number for Democratic administrations. This to and fro can go on all day and it's doubtful you'll ever see anything beyond the hysterical conspiracies you see in the mist.

But feel free to back up your points with concrete examples accompanied by references.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:39 am

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Example: The VP has oil industry help write energy policy in the US.
He refuses to reveal who attends these meetings.

The drug companies helped write the new Senior Prescription drug bill. It has a clause the prohibits the Federal Government from putting out for bid enourmous purchases of drugs en masse. Thus they have no leverage with drug companies. They pay full price.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:40 am

So first Canada gets called socialist on here, now the U.S.A is fascist .. sheesh, where does the madness end  Nuts

Seriously, your pretty little 14 point list is nice and all and if everything in this world could simply be defined by a checklist it would be very convenient. But go and take a university level political science class, hell ANY university social science and class and you will quickly learn that life doesn't fit inside this nice perfect square box that we may like to think it does, nor can we simply classify things because it/they may or may not fit some prescribed checklist we have. There may be tendencies but those tendencies or patterns do not make something absolute.
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:41 am

Well then you can say that America is a fascist country because ever since day one we have met all of the above requirements especially nationalism though. It is not Bush's fault as much as I dislike him, our founding fathers started it and he is just continuing it. It is not his fault.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:43 am

Skyservice

Hence the title of the thread " Bush is leading", rather than "The US is" or "Bush is Facist" .

Where did I use absolute terms?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:48 am

14 Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

The GOP laughs at the Abu Grab scandal. Rush, Hannity make jokes about it.
Rumsfeld keeps his job. The attorney who helped write the torture policy is appointed Attorney General.

 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:59 am

Padcrasher: ANC follow slowly because you gone off on many tangents

I'm relatively sure I haven't gone off on as many tangents as you my friend.  Nuts

Let's hear some more - this is making the mid-day go by quickly. I appreciate it!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:00 am

The military budget was a small part of the US budget. Domestic programs such as education funding and social security were successes.

..."successes"? LOL  Nuts



They want survival of the fittest. Dog eat dog.

Capitalism 101  Insane



You have a media afraid of challenging Bush's propoganda because it would lead to charges of "liberal bias" or at worse a snubbing by the Administration's Press department. This will effect their ratings so they let him slide.

That doesn't seem to have stopped the blossoming fiscal success of NPR and "Air America"  Laugh out loud



The GOP laughs at the Abu Grab scandal. Rush, Hannity make jokes about it.

So do I... hell, I wish they'd have taped it and sold the copies. How's that Bush's fault?
 
L.1011
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:43 am



1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Nationalism, in its true sense is a country saying "We're the best so let's kill and enslave everybody that isn't us." Patriotism (what you see in America today) is saying "Woohoo we rule!" and not much else.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

And that is happening....where? And don't say Abu Gharib, considering the fact that Dubya renounced that totally.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Yeah we are definitely fascists for not wanting to get killed.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Hey Padcrasher, guess what! The military has been tops in the US budget since FDR. So that's Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and another Bush with the military tops in the US budget. Are you suggesting that FDR was a fascist? We've also always supported our troops. And considering the fact that social security reform (a domestic issue) is Bush's top priority, how can you suggest that he neglecting the domestic agenda?

5. Rampant Sexism

*Cough*First black female SecState*cough*.

6. Controlled Mass Media

And how exactly is the government controlling the media? First Amendment kinda protects us against that if you didn't notice. You have ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX News, MSNBC, CNN, blogs, radio, news websites, newspapers, and more to choose from. Liberally-biased, conservatively-biased, and independent. Just looking at the TV networks you have Walt Disney, General Electric, Viacom, Newscorp, General Electric, and Time Warner. I'd say that's a pretty diverse selection.

7. Obsession with National Security

ob·ses·sion (n) A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.-The American Heritage Dictionary

Yep, it's so unreasonable to think Osama wants to kill us.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

There is a great difference between having a religious man running the country and having religion and government be one and the same.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

As opposed to taxing them to death and dumping the money into inefficient, ineffective social programs while dramatically increasing unemployment because the companies are suffocating under massive, complication taxes and myriad regulations? Oh yeah, I like your idea much better!

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

And when, exactly, has President Bush oppressed unions?

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Hmmm. I don't know what you've been smoking, but last time I checked America still leads the world in education and technology, and we have thriving arts. People are still cramming through the doors of Harvard, and Yale, and Princeton, and Penn, and Palo Alto and Redwood are thriving. Music and movies and television and books continue to sell in record numbers. I don't know where you even got this one from.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

What the hell has changed with crime and punishment in the last four years? And again:

ob·ses·sion (n) A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.-The American Heritage Dictionary

Is not wanting your kid to be shot unreasonable? Is wanting bank robbers and serial killers and sex offenders off the streets unreasonable?

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

We continue to rank at or near the bottom of world corruption indexes, so this is a joke as well.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Yeah we've had plenty of those.  Insane

 
JetJock22
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:48 am

L1011, I think you win the award for best post of the day.  Big thumbs up Btw, welcome to my respected user list.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:57 am

L1011,

We dont see eye to eye politically but atleast you can use substantiated evidence and facts to belittle Padcrasher's cookie cutter post.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:03 am

LO11

You're arguing beside the point. I did not assert the the US was facist. Only that it is heading that way.

Nationalism is growing. Consolidationl of the media is slowly happening. Corruption is getting worse. Corporate money is deciding elecitions. Funding for the arts and public eduction is being cut. Goverment regulations of companies are not being enforced. They've moved to gut EPA regulations at the behest of their corporate contributers. We've been so whitewashed with fear that we attacked a country that was a non-player in World terrorism. They sold it to us as a WMD threat.
 
vneplus5
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:13 am

Patriotism? Yeah.. right..



(bumper sticker seen recently on a popular auction site)


That is the sort of thing that makes people hate you.

L1011, I think you win the award for best post of the day. Big thumbs up Btw, welcome to my respected user list.

Here is a link in case you two need to get a room.
 
L.1011
Posts: 2172
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:14 am

JetJock,

Thanks man! Right back at ya.

Jpetek,

Of course I could! But then again I could also waste my life by watching Dr. Phil.  Big thumbs up

Padcrasher,

If you read between the lines of my post, it clearly shoots down the fact that we are even becoming fascist. We simply aren't, but I'll address your reply anyway.

Nationalism is growing.

Once again, nationalism vs. patriotism.

Consolidationl of the media is slowly happening.

If consolidation=government control then 2+2=5.

Corruption is getting worse.

And your evidence for that is...........................where?

Corporate money is deciding elecitions.

Well that must be some indecisive money! Compare 2000 and 2004 to 1996, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1972, 1956, 1952, 1944, 1940, 1936, 1932.

Funding for the arts and public eduction is being cut.

Was America a fascist nation before the Department of Education and National Endowment for the Arts existed?

Goverment regulations of companies are not being enforced.

Oh my god! Eliot Spitzer died?!

They've moved to gut EPA regulations at the behest of their corporate contributers.

Yeah, you're right. What's 3 million acres of new wetlands anyway?

We've been so whitewashed with fear that we attacked a country that was a non-player in World terrorism. They sold it to us as a WMD threat.

And you have the evidence that they knew there was no WMD threat?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:34 am

It's a slow process. 8 years ago when they started publishing the corruption Index the US was # 15, then to #16, now #17. Right up there Chile and Barbados. I have no doubt we will slip again next year.

The Bush Admin has moved to gut EPA rules and was blocked by the Courts. Corporate PAC money is at an all time high. The Bush Admin did push for allowing consolidation of the media into huge conglomerates. (It's easier to influence them that way) They've paid journalists to promote their programs. They've cut back on question and answer sessions with the press.
.


 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:38 am

vneplus

That sort of thing is not unusual and it is getting more common. Many of the posters here are glad to embrace some of these 14 points. They've actually admitted to it. This is why I see things getting worse for many years to come. We'll pay a huge price for this in money, lives, wasted time.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:41 am

Good lord are you still around? If the USA is headed down the road to facism, then I'm a damn proud Facist

Fine, then JetJock, wear you Swasticka proudly, work on your fascist salute, and learn how to goose-step, OK?

While I'm not convinced that the U.S. is really headed to fascism, I am certainly having some concern with the far right tack this nation has taken since 9/11. We have become, in many respects, a militaristic, paranoid nation, afriad of shadows, who has, without a doubt, looked for scapegoats and to bully even long-time friends when they haven't agreed with us.

And the all-encompasing blast from the conservatives on here tells me that the author of this thread hit a sensitive nerve among all of them, with maybe the exception of JetJock, who really don't want to see their nation turn into a fascist state, and who may have some issues-more than they'll ever admit-with this administration and where it's going.

Fascism? No, not at the moment, hopefully not in my lifetime. Extremist? Absolutely, which is why I think the success the GOP is currently having will wilt away, as they become a party dominated by paranoid extremists.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:56 am

Here's what the former Governor of Louisianna said about facism. It goes hand in hand with Patriotism.

As Huey P. Long once said, "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100 percent Americanism."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:03 am

Nationalism, in its true sense is a country saying "We're the best so let's kill and enslave everybody that isn't us." Patriotism (what you see in America today) is saying "Woohoo we rule!" and not much else.

Unfortunately, from the outside it appears that the former is what defines Bush's foreign policy today.
 
mia
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:43 am

I couldnt agree more with the initiator of this post. We are supposed to learn from the past, something Americans do not. History repeats itself over and over again. The demise of this nation wont happen any time soon, but it will happen eventually.
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:46 am

JetJock22: I wouldn't count on it Klaus. I think I'm destined to be a "facsist" for the long haul

Last time those "thousand years" went by rather quickly, and out with a "bang"...  Insane

Just try to keep the casualty count somewhat limited, will you? You´re already well into six-digit figures by now...  Pissed
 
L.1011
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:22 am

Unfortunately, from the outside it appears that the former is what defines Bush's foreign policy today.

I love the focus on the 20,000 or so deaths and not the 50 million or so liberated people.  Insane
 
airplay
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:30 am

The Bush years have seen a real return to fundamentalist and extreme conservative views.

Mix in some paranoia and you certainly have the recipe for facism. The odd thing to me though, is that Americans seem to be going down this path willingly.

You guys don't seem to mind the imposition of your freedom because you are very afraid. 9/11 has caused many Americans to feel victimized and isolated. Instead of reflection, revenge was chosen.

The gradual errosion of personal freedoms is suddenly acceptable because of fear and contempt for the "evil-doers" who apparently are jealous of America's freedom.

It appeares to me that you must be very careful what you say in America these days. Don't speak out against the government. Don't express your opinion of the war. Don't speak negtively about Bush. Lest your employer be encouraged to fire you or risk imprisonment or deportation.
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:37 am

L.1011: Nationalism, in its true sense is a country saying "We're the best so let's kill and enslave everybody that isn't us."

Ah, no. That´s merely the end point and logical conclusion of nationalism.


L.1011: Patriotism (what you see in America today) is saying "Woohoo we rule!" and not much else.

No, that´s actually the core of nationalism!


Patriotism is the willingness to make personal sacrifices for the greater good of one´s own country, for the community.

Nationalism is the quasi-religious and blind adulation for symbols of one´s own nation and the belief that one´s own nation was in some way "more valuable" than other nations.

And you´re quite consistently displaying a perfect example of the latter.


L.1011: 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

And that is happening....where? And don't say Abu Gharib, considering the fact that Dubya renounced that totally.


Laughable! He just made the guy attourney general who declared abuse and torture of prisoners okay!  Insane


L.1011: 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Yeah we are definitely fascists for not wanting to get killed.


In case you still didn´t get the memo: Saddam had other priorities than to kill you. But many americans either didn´t know or didn´t want to know the truth.

He wasn´t a nice man at all, but he was merely a scapegoat used under false pretenses to rally support among a mis-informed and propaganda-intoxicated domestic population.


L.1011: 7. Obsession with National Security

ob·ses·sion (n) A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.-The American Heritage Dictionary

Yep, it's so unreasonable to think Osama wants to kill us.


The trouble is that fear has become the all-encompassing and all-overriding emotion even in places where reason or analysis would have been necessary. You´re trading a cold, hard look at reality for comfortable ignorance - as long as it´s other people who do the dying for you!


L.1011: 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

There is a great difference between having a religious man running the country and having religion and government be one and the same.


From the perspective of any secular and enlightened society, you´re closer to the Taleban than you´re to the 21st century in many respects.


L.1011: 9. Corporate Power is Protected

As opposed to taxing them to death and dumping the money into inefficient, ineffective social programs while dramatically increasing unemployment because the companies are suffocating under massive, complication taxes and myriad regulations? Oh yeah, I like your idea much better!


Those damn european commies are still somehow kicking your butts with all the things they´re doing wrong, aren´t they?  Nuts

Still, that´s not the point. The point is the consistent overriding of any other interests (including national interests!) when specific industry interests are concerned. And that´s clearly been a strong theme with the Bush administration.


L.1011: 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Hmmm. I don't know what you've been smoking, but last time I checked America still leads the world in education and technology, and we have thriving arts.


Look again. You´re falling behind on many fronts; On several you´ve never had the lead.

Threatening and firing scientists for not bending their findings to the ruling political will is a strong authoritarian theme - and one of the reasons for an accelerating brain drain from the USA. An administration that clearly favours "belief" over science has always and everywhere caused a decline in science, technology and ultimately culture in general.


L.1011: 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Is not wanting your kid to be shot unreasonable? Is wanting bank robbers and serial killers and sex offenders off the streets unreasonable?


A borderline psychopathic obsession with revenge old-testament style instead of dealing with real causes (which, unfortunately, might be more complex) is a consistent motive as much when dealing with domestic crime as it is when dealing with external threats.

Whatever doesn´t fit a primitive "good vs. evil" scheme is simply dismissed in favour of a ridiculously simplified - and usually brutal - strike at whoever is in reach. Too bad this usually paves the way for another failure and yet another, even bigger problem...


L.1011: 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

We continue to rank at or near the bottom of world corruption indexes, so this is a joke as well.


One of the main reasons being that the normal metric for corruption only deals with public spending corruption. There´s relatively little public spending available in the US system to even permit corruption of that classic kind.

When you´re looking at the political level, however, even the normal modus operandi would be considered corrupt in many other parts of the world - even the presidency is basically for sale! Has Dick Cheney disclosed even the most general specifics of his clandestine meetings with the energy industry in the meantime? He didn´t? Ah, who would have thought!  Nuts

Not even mentioning the rampant industrial corruption (Enron etc.).


L.1011: 14. Fraudulent Elections

Yeah we've had plenty of those.


Generally dismissing this knowlege with a shrug is a troubling sign for a democracy.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:48 am

It's so hilarious when bitter people are so unwilling to accept the democratic government of choice, that they stoop to hysterics about fascism. This does nothing more than marginalize true fascism. When you call Bush a fascist you are doing more to complement and normalize Hitler than you are to badmouth Bush. Nice one.  Insane

All Americans have the same rights now in Bush's 5th year as President as they did under Clinton's 8 years. There has been no rescinding of civil liberties. The US remains a shining example of human rights and rule of law that the rest of the world looks to.



 
padcrasher
Topic Author
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:55 am

Who called Bush a facist YYZ?
 
padcrasher
Topic Author
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:59 am

"All Americans have the same rights now in Bush's 5th year as President as they did under Clinton's 8 years. There has been no rescinding of civil liberties"


http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:08 am

Yyz717: All Americans have the same rights now in Bush's 5th year as President as they did under Clinton's 8 years. There has been no rescinding of civil liberties.

Yeah, right. Now "even" including the "rights" to have their own government spying on what they´re reading, getting imprisoned without recourse, getting abused...  Nuts

I´m still wondering why you still haven´t moved there!  Wink/being sarcastic


Yyz717: The US remains a shining example of human rights and rule of law that the rest of the world looks to.

You´re apparently far out of touch. Read any recent international poll and you´ll learn otherwise!


I´m still confident that the increasingly authoritarian tendencies in the USA will be overcome in time; But "shining example" - sorry, that´s a thing of the past.
 
padcrasher
Topic Author
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:17 am

Nice post Klaus. Believe it or not you know more about the US and US history than half the Americans here. Hey I see you lived in Darmstadt. Nice town. I lived in Russelsheim and Mainz and Wiesbaden back in the day.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:20 am

Yeah, right. Now "even" including the "rights" to have their own government spying on what they´re reading, getting imprisoned without recourse, getting abused...

The US is not spying on its citizens reading material, and you know it.

I´m still wondering why you still haven´t moved there!

I have lived in the US. What's your point?

You´re apparently far out of touch. Read any recent international poll and you´ll learn otherwise!

Reality, rather than polls, shows the US is still one of the freeest societies in the world. The US remains the most popular destination for 3rd world emigration. That is the poll that speaks the loudest.....not the mental meanderings of leftist urban EU trash (I'm not refering to you Klaus, but the nauseating holier-than-thou attitude of the urban Euro-trash gliterati set).





 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:28 am

It's so hilarious when bitter people are so unwilling to accept the democratic government of choice, that they stoop to hysterics about fascism.

Yyz, the reason I voted against this man is I think he, and those around him, in most cases, are extremists, especially on the foreign policy/personal liberties front, and not for the good. You can think it's hilarious all you want, you not even living in this country. I think Bush is the most extreme president we've ever had, and I do not like the direction he's taking the nation. I don't see that as hyisterics-I see it as deep concern over the directin of MY nation.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4207
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:30 am

Patriotism is the willingness to make personal sacrifices for the greater good of one´s own country, for the community.

To sacrifice is something the American people haven't done or been asked of to do by their government since 9/11.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Bush - Leading The US Into Facism

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:30 am

Reality, rather than polls, shows the US is still one of the freeest societies in the world. The US remains the most popular destination for 3rd world emigration.

All the more reason to resist the errosion of civil liberties. Should Americans just let everything slide until its too late?

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