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vfw614
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:23 am

 
TACAA320
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:01 am

I used both: IE and Mozilla [in that order of preference].
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:49 am

DeskPilot: So Apple (and other vendors for OS X software) have and always will close all vunerabilities before they are exploited Klaus? So you're saying they will ALWAYS identify a vulnerability first?

Where did I claim such a thing?


DeskPilot: Sorry Klaus, I don't believe this. Here's an example from December last year of a known EXPLOIT that still isn't patched correctly. Oh, and Apple DIDN'T FIND the vulnerability - they were advised.

That´s not an exploit, it´s a potential vulnerability; And as far as I remember that one, it could only lead to a problem if the web site was configured incorrectly in addition.


PPGMD: Just because root is disabled, doesn't mean that a root kit can get their privlages escalated to root. Disabling root simply prevents the user from using it to do something stupid.

No, actually. By default, the root account does not exist - it´s not just blocked in the login screen.


PPGMD: And there is always privlage escalation onto the system level.

I don´t think you´d have much luck escalating privileges to an account that doesn´t exist at all.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 52):
Where did I claim such a thing?


Here's you statement. You said ALL.

Quoting Klaus (reply 44):
Incorrect! There have been potential vulnerabilities, all of which have been fixed before an exploit was "available", unlike Windows with thousands of active Exploits!
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:32 am

There´s a superficially minor but fundamentally substantial difference between "have always been" (so far) and "will always be" (in all eternity).

The former was simply my observation, the latter (proposed by yourself) would be hubris.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 54):
The former was simply my observation, the latter (proposed by yourself) would be hubris.


You use the word hubris in reference to my statement, yet you make this statement ?

Quoting Klaus (reply 44):
Incorrect! There have been potential vulnerabilities, all of which have been fixed before an exploit was "available", unlike Windows with thousands of active Exploits!


Who's suffering from pride and arrogance Klaus ?

My statement in reply 36 was that all OS (Win, Linux, OS, etc) and software suffer from vulnerabilities that can be exploited. That is the nature of software development that not all conditions can be identified and tested. I never defended Wintel, nor held this up as a shinning example of a secure OS.

Quoting DeskPilot (reply 36):
think it would be more accurate to say "know" design flaws. The fact that flaws haven't been found on OS X doesn't mean they don't exist.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Kay
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:24 pm

I used to have a very slow dial-modem connection once. When typing posts on here, if the paragraph was big, it wouldn't go through (plus the text would disappear). I was using IE and lived with that for months.. I thought it was the slow connection.

One day, I installed Mozilla. Guess what.. the problem went away.
pff.

Kay
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 52):
I don´t think you´d have much luck escalating privileges to an account that doesn´t exist at all.


Actually system level accounts exist on every system, or else they can't operate, because there are always tasks which constantly require a higher privilege than the user.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
chris78cpr
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:38 am

I use IE but i do have firefox installed. I use firefox when IE is being stupid and not letitng me look at pages properly or is refusing to refresh sites where i have sent info to.

chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:50 am

DeskPilot: You use the word hubris in reference to my statement, yet you make this statement?

Yes, I do; Historically - meaning up to now - Apple did indeed always fix the potenital vulnerabilities before an exploit emerged. I´m not even aware of any active exploits for past potential vulnerabilities...


DeskPilot: Who's suffering from pride and arrogance Klaus?

It´s a mere fact that there is currently no known threat to MacOS X from viruses, worms or other malware. And it´s equally a fact that there are literally thousands of active threats to Windows.

I don´t see any room for "pride and arrogance". I feel for you if these facts should bother you, but you already know my 0recommendation.  Wink/being sarcastic


DeskPilot: My statement in reply 36 was that all OS (Win, Linux, OS, etc) and software suffer from vulnerabilities that can be exploited.

All major OSs and most other software.


DeskPilot: That is the nature of software development that not all conditions can be identified and tested.

No. It is in fact possible to make software airtight, it´s just not all too common in practice.


DeskPilot: I never defended Wintel, nor held this up as a shinning example of a secure OS.

Which is entirely okay with me.  Wink/being sarcastic


PPGMD: Actually system level accounts exist on every system, or else they can't operate, because there are always tasks which constantly require a higher privilege than the user.

That´s not necessarily a problem; The kernel can always delegate "downwards"; But I haven´t examined the details of the default root-lockout so far; My machine does have an activated root account... and a correspondingly paranoid administrator...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 59):
That´s not necessarily a problem; The kernel can always delegate "downwards"; But I haven´t examined the details of the default root-lockout so far; My machine does have an activated root account... and a correspondingly paranoid administrator...


True having a system level account isn't a problem, but it leaves that same threat. Many OS X users like to say that their OS is completely secure because the root account is locked out citing that the administrator privileges in XP allow viruses to run rampant.

A disabled root only minimizes the problem because they can't brute force into the root account, but very few exploits rely on brute forcing the root password, instead they use an exploit within the kernel (of which there have been at least 3 found to date with OS X) to escalate their privileges. Because of the lock out on OS X they wouldn't go for the root account, instead they would simply attempt to escalate their privileges to the system level, which is just as bad.

Regardless, it has always been my opinion that a system is only as secure as it's user, if you are knowledgeable IRL dealing with the machine as you come off in this forum, then you system is in good hands. But in the hands of the user, the system is in no way perfect, so I wouldn't say you system is perfect because there are no exploits in the wild, because the number of public internet addressable Macs is quite low compared to Windows and Linux.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:16 am

I personally use AOL
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting PPGMD (reply 60):
so I wouldn't say you system is perfect because there are no exploits in the wild, because the number of public internet addressable Macs is quite low compared to Windows and Linux.


Good luck on that argument. Klaus will continue to insist that Apple will forsee everything - oh, sorry Klaus - up to now is the expression isn't it  Smile
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:00 pm

PPGMD: Many OS X users like to say that their OS is completely secure because the root account is locked out citing that the administrator privileges in XP allow viruses to run rampant.

"Many". I see.  Wink/being sarcastic


PPGMD: Regardless, it has always been my opinion that a system is only as secure as it's user

It´s one factor, sure. But it´s simply not realistic to completely dismiss the inherent security (or lack thereof) incurred by the OS environment.

A "user-only" MacOS X installation is significantly safer at this point (and in the foreseeable future) than a Windows installation. And it´s easier to maintain on top of that. This is not about perfection, but the differences still exist.


DeskPilot: Good luck on that argument. Klaus will continue to insist that Apple will forsee everything - oh, sorry Klaus - up to now is the expression isn't it

If you don´t get the difference between a simple experience-based statement and an absolute prediction I can´t help you either. Good luck.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Klaus (reply 63):
It´s one factor, sure. But it´s simply not realistic to completely dismiss the inherent security (or lack thereof) incurred by the OS environment.

A "user-only" MacOS X installation is significantly safer at this point (and in the foreseeable future) than a Windows installation. And it´s easier to maintain on top of that. This is not about perfection, but the differences still exist.


Sorry I'm not one that looks at a default install at all. I have handed over locked down FreeBSD boxes (possibly the most secure OS available at this point), and I have had users have them hacked within days.

90% of security IMO is based on the user, sure some OSs make it harder for the user to do anything stupid, but a really dumb user will find ways around it.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
LFutia
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting USAFHummer (reply 1):
Mozilla, made the switch recently from IE, haven't looked back, its great!


I second that  Smile .... made the switch and havent looked back... now only if the school computers used Firefox... the only thing i dont like is that some fonts look huge and small... oh well im adjusted to it anways  Smile
Leo/ORD
 
NWADC9
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:05 pm

Just switched an hour ago, and I love Firefox! I'm only gonna use IE in the event that Firefox won't work with a site. Otherwise, Firefox all the way!!!!!!!!! Big thumbs up
I get paid to convert dead dino juice into noise.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting Klaus (reply 63):
If you don´t get the difference between a simple experience-based statement and an absolute prediction I can´t help you either. Good luck.


Ahhhh, so we have some "simple experience based statements" present. Enlighten me as to which fall into this category Klaus, since I may be possible arguing against some statements you made that aren't facts.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
F9Widebody
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:26 pm



Simply the best.

Regards
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:06 pm

PPGMD: Sorry I'm not one that looks at a default install at all. I have handed over locked down FreeBSD boxes (possibly the most secure OS available at this point), and I have had users have them hacked within days.

They can´t have been "locked down" really, then.  Wink/being sarcastic


PPGMD: 90% of security IMO is based on the user, sure some OSs make it harder for the user to do anything stupid, but a really dumb user will find ways around it.

The problem is if systems basically enforce the user fiddling with potentially dangerous components... And if normal user-serviceable components are already dangerous. That´s what decent system design should attempt to avoid, and that´s where MacOS X so far looks quite a bit better than Windows (and better than Linux, in different ways).

One of the reasons why many system administrators usually favour Windows or Linux over MacOS is that it keeps themselves occupied and their jobs safe...  Wink/being sarcastic


DeskPilot, please read my actual statements and compare them with your imagined re-interpretations of them...  Insane
 
regupilot
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting PPGMD (reply 12):
IE, I have Firefox installed but I simply don't see any reason to switch, since I have never had any issues with IE (no viruses or spyware at all).


Seems like you have never browsed the internet, or.. use IE on a Intranet.

I use Netscape, IE and Firefox. Firefox is my default, and I use IE in sites, like my bank, which is full of ActiveX controls and ASP pages which require IE. Also, when opening PDF's... since there's a known bug of the PDF plug-in with Firefox (Adobe is to blame).

Firefox is faster, smarter... has tabbed browsing. Does not eat your RAM and resources as Netscape and IE does. Does not take years to open the home page or to load. Can be customized to look just as IE, in case you're used to IE interface.... Its fast loading pages. Fast loading itself (again)... fast and faster, and more faster... and blocks pop-ups... (if you have Win98 or Win2000, IE won't block pop-ups).... etc etc etc. So, for the faithfull users of IE (and I was since version 3.0) it only works with you because you're on WinXP SP2. But for the rest of us, FireFox is the way.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 69):
They can´t have been "locked down" really, then.


Oh it was locked down. The user didn't bother using the version of Apache that I provided him (jail in chroot), instead installed his own version (ugh). Which is how I think the hacker got in, via some exploit of Apache, I can't be sure because I really didn't care, I simply re-imaged the machine.

Quoting Klaus (reply 69):
The problem is if systems basically enforce the user fiddling with potentially dangerous components... And if normal user-serviceable components are already dangerous. That´s what decent system design should attempt to avoid, and that´s where MacOS X so far looks quite a bit better than Windows (and better than Linux, in different ways).


And something that Windows has been striving to do over the years, slowly they have been removing the easy access to critical components. I believe that Longhorn is when they are going to start with downgraded user rights.

Quoting ReguPilot (reply 70):
Seems like you have never browsed the internet, or.. use IE on a Intranet.


Actually I have, I browse the internet on Medium-low with IE. Now the list of sites that I visit is limited because I really don't have that much time. My user browse the internet via a proxy server because it gives me more control to keep out the nasty stuff like viruses and spyware (my computer is in the lab subnet which is allowed to connect directly through the gateway onto the net).
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:52 am

PPGMD: Oh it was locked down. The user didn't bother using the version of Apache that I provided him (jail in chroot), instead installed his own version (ugh).

Okay.. but a system on which a user can install a different version of an internal server component can´t be called "locked down" by any stretch...  Wink/being sarcastic


PPGMD: And something that Windows has been striving to do over the years, slowly they have been removing the easy access to critical components. I believe that Longhorn is when they are going to start with downgraded user rights.

No, that´s not the way to go... Windows takes control away, OS X simplifies control. That´s fundamentally different - and a lot less dangerous.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 72):
Okay.. but a system on which a user can install a different version of an internal server component can´t be called "locked down" by any stretch...


When the user is paying for full control of the server, I have to hand over the root password. If it was a managed server they wouldn't have that type of control.

Quoting Klaus (reply 72):
No, that´s not the way to go... Windows takes control away, OS X simplifies control. That´s fundamentally different - and a lot less dangerous.


No, they simply want to allow the user to get used to using other ways of controlling the computer. They want to have more run as (something I have been doing for a while now) similar to Linux sudo. They want to have more simplified control panels, that allow the users to have full control, but easier to use. SP1 for Server 2003 will be a brilliant example of it. I have played with the beta, which included the new security wizard, it's fantastically easy, while at the same time very powerful.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:27 am

PPGMD: When the user is paying for full control of the server, I have to hand over the root password

Okay. So much for "locked down"! Big grin


PPGMD: No, they simply want to allow the user to get used to using other ways of controlling the computer.

That´s not what the whole Palladium architecture is about - it´s clearly intended to prevent the user from accessing even his/her own data if Microsoft so wishes... And more so, of course, important system settings.

It´s definitely the wrong direction - especially with usability at most staying as it is under Windows...

But anyway, we could expand on that in a separate thread...
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 74):
That´s not what the whole Palladium architecture is about - it´s clearly intended to prevent the user from accessing even his/her own data if Microsoft so wishes... And more so, of course, important system settings.


Palladium is meant to lock down content, think of it as moving NTFS permissions. A year or two back I was e-mailed flight test data from the 777-300ER because the mailing list I was on, was similar to the name of one of the program managers. Under the Palladium before that e-mail was sent it would have given him the notice that this data is protected, and this mailing list doesn't have permission to access the data. It would do the same if I was given the data via a floppy disk because my user wouldn't have permissions to open it.

This is big to corporations, too much data is leaked via these means. To the average user, with the exception of protected content like purchased media, it's unlikely that they will notice a thing, unless someone accidentally sends them a protected document.

Microsoft is still pushing for fully functional but easy to use. They want to provide more wizards to do common tasks, user interfaces that give accurate warnings when I user may be harming their systems. Right now the only warning you get, is that you would have to reboot your system. They want to provide warnings (which you could turn off), that are more informative and prevent users from opening themselves up for attack.

The security center, and the new Active X control installer pop-ups are examples of the direction Microsoft wants to move.

Quoting Klaus (reply 74):
Okay. So much for "locked down"!


A user can do the same thing on Mac, all they have to do is enable the root account. The system was delivered in a fully functional secure state. The customer choose to disregard the secure version in favor of their own version. You can do that on any operating system.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:32 am

PPGMD: Palladium is meant to lock down content, think of it as moving NTFS permissions.

I know the MS marketing fluff you just repeated so diligently above...  Wink/being sarcastic

The cases you described above are much better fixed with better usability instead of increased restrictions for the user.

I don´t need a computer if I have to fight it all the time or if it secretly works against me - and you bet that´s what it will amount to with the proven track record of Microsoft.

I´m just happy to stay on the Mac with Longhorn on the horizon.


Klaus: Okay. So much for "locked down"!

PPGMD: A user can do the same thing on Mac,

That wasn´t my point... I was merely responding to your "slight overstatement"...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 76):
I know the MS marketing fluff you just repeated so diligently above...

The cases you described above are much better fixed with better usability instead of increased restrictions for the user.

I don´t need a computer if I have to fight it all the time or if it secretly works against me - and you bet that´s what it will amount to with the proven track record of Microsoft.


About the only time that a user will ever see the DRM outside of corporations would be with purchased media. Corporations have always been the target of the trusted computing model. Companies are looking for better ways to protect their data.

Acrobat is a perfect example, why do you think that PDFs are so popular, because they can use DRM to lock down the content, I highly doubt you would see so many PDFs if they couldn't lock it down.

It's not marketing fluff, it's a real features that corporations want with their server products, but in order to do it, they need the trusted computing platform all the way down to the user level. IT is different world than general computing, and many of the features in Longhorn are aimed at that market first.

Microsoft has always pushed that the general user should have pretty much full access to their computer, why do you think that all users are administrators? XP already has all the tools in place to degrade user rights, but Microsoft felt (and still feels to a certain extent) that if they make the settings easier to use, and set they don't need to lock things off.

You have to separate features aimed for a corporate environment, against the general features of the operating system. Myself I repeat that, because that's what my customers want. They want IT to have better control of their systems and data, to lower costs and increase security.

Quoting Klaus (reply 76):
That wasn´t my point... I was merely responding to your "slight overstatement"...


Not an overstatement, it was locked down, so any Apache exploit wouldn't be able to affect the system. My responsibility for the system ended when they ran their own instance of Apache, they weren't using the tools I put down for them to increase security without decreasing usability. Chroot jailing is a well documented security method to protect Apache compromises from causing a system compromise.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
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hawaiian717
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting PPGMD (reply 64):
I have handed over locked down FreeBSD boxes (possibly the most secure OS available at this point), and I have had users have them hacked within days.


That title usually goes to OpenBSD, not FreeBSD. But any secure operating system can fall apart when administered by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

All that stuff about Palladium, sounds like companies with those needs really should be using a multilevel OS like Trusted Solaris.

David / ABQ
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:42 am

PPGMD: About the only time that a user will ever see the DRM outside of corporations would be with purchased media. Corporations have always been the target of the trusted computing model. Companies are looking for better ways to protect their data.

With everything we know today, Microsoft is about the last one to provide a solution there, sorry. Trying to build the certification pillar of the entire system on MS quicksand is simply laughableBig grin


PPGMD: Acrobat is a perfect example, why do you think that PDFs are so popular, because they can use DRM to lock down the content, I highly doubt you would see so many PDFs if they couldn't lock it down.

Sorry, no. The primary reason why PDF is successful is because it provides a (largely) reproducible way of transporting documents. That is what´s currently revolutionizing the publishing world in a way "normal" Postscript couldn´t. I´ve actually never in my life encountered a locked PDF - although I´m constantly using them for a variety of applications. And that will probably mirror almost everybody else´s experience in almost any other profession.


PPGMD: Not an overstatement, it was locked down, so any Apache exploit wouldn't be able to affect the system.

You presented it as "locked down" in the context of vulnerability; And by handing out the root password that´s simply not applicable any more.
 
jutes85
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:55 am

I use Mozilla, only because IE was acting up and crashing whenever I surfed through A.Net pic archives.
nothing
 
PPGMD
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 79):
With everything we know today, Microsoft is about the last one to provide a solution there, sorry. Trying to build the certification pillar of the entire system on MS quicksand is simply laughable.


Ok, under that understanding, we shouldn't trust Unix, nor it's derivative BSD anymore because of all the vulnerabilities in years past. Microsoft is the only one that can provide the solutions because they have a majority of the desktop and productivity software share, important elements required to start the Trusted Computing Base.

Quoting Klaus (reply 79):
Sorry, no. The primary reason why PDF is successful is because it provides a (largely) reproducible way of transporting documents. That is what´s currently revolutionizing the publishing world in a way "normal" Postscript couldn´t. I´ve actually never in my life encountered a locked PDF - although I´m constantly using them for a variety of applications. And that will probably mirror almost everybody else´s experience in almost any other profession.


The producible is simply a bonus to companies that I deal with anymore. Most of the companies that I see using them do so for security reasons. The biggest users I see are in law offices and such that them as an easy way to transport contract across the nation without paying FedEx, and without the wait (of course they need to print them out and FedEx them back, as e-sigs aren't quite legal tender yet).

Myself I receive about a half dozen locked down PDFs a week, mostly from vendors that don't want their invoices modified.

Quoting Klaus (reply 79):
You presented it as "locked down" in the context of vulnerability; And by handing out the root password that´s simply not applicable any more.


It was locked down from my prospective, when I delivered it, all applications were configured for their best security settings, the root account was using a complex password, and I generated a user with sudo access. Since it was a dedicated server, technically thats where responsibility ends officially.

The user choose to disregard my security concerns and operate the server the way that they wanted to. Would be hold Apple responsible if you screwed up with your root account?
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Klaus
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RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:35 am

PPGMD: Ok, under that understanding, we shouldn't trust Unix, nor it's derivative BSD anymore because of all the vulnerabilities in years past.

Palladium is almost completely useless for its publicly alleged purpose. On that front, it´s merely another encryption scheme with no actual innovation. Those people against which you seem to believe it protects will have just as little trouble decrypting communication as with any other encryption. It´s simply useleess for that. It could only stop the most benign mistakes from being made - provided (and here the Microsoft experience makes it all moot already) - the tools are reliable! Do I have to quote the my-private-conversation-is-in-the-UNDO-buffer screwup? We´re speaking of a company like a Tyrannosaurus Rex - all teeth and muscle, but no brain!  Nuts

But that´s not really the purpose behind Palladium (now embarrassedly camouflaged under some other name I don´t care enough to look up).

The primary purposes are:

- To hand the tools to the industry to finally eliminate any kind of "fair use", regardless what the legal framework might be.

- To achieve full control of the users´ systems and to prevent any "interference" with the operating system. Even external safety enhancements would not be feasible any more.

- To ultimately shoot the competition out of the corporate markets (and consequently out of the other markets) by controlling the essential resource: Certification. Having the entire industry dependent on Microsoft has always been Bill Gates´ wet dream - and Palladium is the tool to achieve it. It´s the equivalent of the 1933 "empowerment law".


PPGMD: Microsoft is the only one that can provide the solutions because they have a majority of the desktop and productivity software share, important elements required to start the Trusted Computing Base.

And they have consistently failed to earn the trust required for that on every front - technical, support, responsible industrial behaviour et cetera.

I understand that someone who makes a living largely on the basis of Microsoft´s screwups will have a brighter view, but everybody else needs to be much more critical than that.


PPGMD: The producible is simply a bonus to companies that I deal with anymore.

It´s still just a side aspect overall.


PPGMD: It was locked down from my prospective,

You were trying to make a point about the absolute security of systems. And handing out root passwords to untrained users trying to fiddle with internals just makes anything in that direction mootBig grin
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:40 am

Frankly Klaus, we can go back and forth for the next year, and never change each others view.

How about we agree to disagree because our prospectives are much different as they come from different back grounds.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:02 am

As I said: It should be in a separate thread anyway. Court is adjourned.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
captaink
Posts: 4010
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:07 am

I love Firefox, but it cannot load alot of the sites I want to view. For the past couple days, I have been toying with both, but my latest resolution is this....

Firefox - for secure internet, shopping etc....
IE - for everything else.

Hates - the endless open windows for IE.
Loves - the tabs in Firefox, talk about genius...
Look Up
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:25 am



 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:48 pm

Srbmod,

Love that Firefox icon.  Big thumbs up

David / ABQ
 
Ps76
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:11 pm

IE 5.5(!!)

Well my system is a PII-333 running 98se.

Only problem is www.ebuyer.com doesn't have any menus any more..


P (living in the 90's!!)
 
aer lingus
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 6:40 pm

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:16 pm

I use IE, Mozilla, Firefox and Opera.
Split Scimitar or Sharklets?
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30172
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Mozilla, IE Or Netscape Which Do You Use?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:51 pm

Netscape.....Past
IE...............Current
Opera..........Current
Mozilla.........Never tried it.But the Feedback seems Positive.Is there a Noticable speed difference.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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