http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...50304/ca_pr_on_na/grow_op_shooting

I Cannot think I i can ever rember more than one Cop killed at once in Canada...Let alone in the middle of Alberta.

This is beyond ridiculous. There better be some heads rolling over this, how the hell do you let some redneck cut down 4 RCMP officers?! Maybe if our police officers were required to have more firearm currency than shooting 50 rounds a year (read: half an hour at the range max)... Unbelievable.

LY744.

Easy there, from the blurbs I've read from the CBC and Montreal Gazette it looks like the officers were ambushed while keeping an eye on the scene some time after a raid. I'm sure we'll know more details soon, then we can point fingers if necessary when there's a better understanding of the events.

Terrible and tragic.

First of all, my sympathies to the Officer's families and friends. It is never easy to lose 1 officer in the line of duty, let alone 4. It is a terrible tragedy for the RCMP.

And, clearly they were ambushed. And just as clearly, LY744, all the time in the world shooting at paper targets on a range won't save your ass in an ambush.

Four Officer of the Peace killed over Pot....who says pot isn't a dangerous drug. This hasn't gotten much attention in the USA I am sorry to say. But 4 dead cops anywhere, in such a terrifying way is a great tradegy, especialy in a country like Canada.

Quoting LY744 (reply 1): This is beyond ridiculous. There better be some heads rolling over this, how the hell do you let some redneck cut down 4 RCMP officers?! Maybe if our police officers were required to have more firearm currency than shooting 50 rounds a year (read: half an hour at the range max)... Unbelievable.

This is SO out of line. I work for a law enforcement agency, to say this is due to training, you are wrong. This is just a sad part of what law enforcement has to deal with everyday. And if it went the other way I.E. police shoot a "redneck" carrying a gun on his own land, everybody would be screaming bloody murder.

I do want to say my sympathies to the Officer's families.The world cries tonight.

Dan in Jupiter

My condolences go to the families as well. It’s just sick that these people will kill to protect their dope. What a waste.

We have a serious problem with marijuana “Gardens” on public lands here in California. These guys are nuts. They put booby-traps along trails and shoot at civilians from time to time mostly just to scare them away, but when they get confronted they can be very dangerous. There were two hikers murdered by these scum on a nearby National Forest a few years back when they accidentally walked into a garden.

In the past, I’ve gone on a few seizure raids and I can tell you we don’t fuck around at all (not to imply that the RCMP was). We go prepared for war; full body armor, Kevlar, M-16s, thermal optics, proper over-watch tactics, remote sensing surveillance,…. serious business. Last year, four growers were shot and killed by a joint Federal/Sheriffs raid team in Northern California after they fired at the team. One officer was wounded by a remote controlled explosive device.

[Edited 2005-03-04 04:48:28]

Kill four cops for the sake of pot? Hmmmm.... Yes, addiction distorts a person's priorities.

So can anyone come up with any sort of scenario where a single pot aficionado, using nothing but a rifle (be it semi or fully automatic), could possibly kill FOUR law enforcement officers who apparently surprised him?! Cause I sure as hell can't figure it out. Not even if he ambushed them.

Sounds to me like the RCMP should be re-evaluating some of their tactics.

P.S. Excuse me for being pissed that four of this country's law enforcement officers just died for nothing.


LY744.

Quoting LY744 (reply 8): So can anyone come up with any sort of scenario where a single pot aficionado, using nothing but a rifle (be it semi or fully automatic), could possibly kill FOUR law enforcement officers who apparently surprised him?! Cause I sure as hell can't figure it out. Not even if he ambushed them.

I could come up with a dozen scenarios . . . . it's not Hollywood out there, it's not a game, there's no script, occasionally shit goes south - today was one of the those days.

Did you by any chance see the news footage? Notice it was a large 2 story barn like structure? Notice there was no cover for a couple hundred yards in front of and on the sides of the barn? No place to hide, or cover from gun fire.

I'm not about to second guess the officers in that situation, I wasn't there. I've done a few search warrants in my time - both dynamic and non-dynamic - every one is different.

Quoting LY744 (reply 8): P.S. Excuse me for being pissed that four of this country's law enforcement officers just died for nothing

Oh, no, don't apologize for being angry over this. It's a good thing that you're angry that four law enforcement officers lost their lives in the line of duty. Next time you see an officer of the law on the street just tell him/her thank you for what they do . . . . same for your local Fire Fighter.

Have a nice day.   

The RCMP has now identified the four Mounties:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...l/2005/03/04/myrol-rcmp050304.html

You know, this really pisses me off. I'm not going to post further because I don't want it to be deleted       

I'm suprised that this didn't get much international attention. I read a fair amount of international newspapers and found next to nothing. Unless i just didn't see it.
My sympathy to those involved.

If he whacked himself anyway, why take the lives of four useful members of society? What a waste. May he burn in Hell and may the officers' souls rest in peace.

What do the cops out theree in here think. I am not talking bout how made they are at the person who killed or How it is sensless it was or how your passing your condolences to the families of the slain. I guess what I am wondering about is does a incident like this make you examine your own mortality on the job? Does it make you think why you do it? As I am working to becoming a cop for me it did make me look at my own mortality and my own choices...Pretty much for the whole day I have been thinking about this stuff. Wondering what they must have felt like or have been thinking. People even called me to ask if i still wanted to be a cop.

I know I am rambling. Just stuff like this really bothers me.

I hope that makes sense.

GS

To be honest, I'm more fearful that I'll be DOAed by a drunk driver. That's not to say I don't think about it and try to lower the risk. If you live your life in fear, you'll never enjoy it.

I rather agree with IAH777 . . .. I'm more worried about accidental death than some one actually planning to take out a cop (or 2, 3, 4).

Proper training, proper employment of forces, attention to detail, all of those things can reduce the risk, but the risk will always be there.

Four Officer of the Peace killed over Pot....who says pot isn't a dangerous drug.

Anyone who thinks that this is about "pot" is wrong in my opinion. This is about illegal activity. As a matter of fact, if pot was legal or decriminalized, there is a chance that this might not have happened.

Again in my opinion, it is ludicrous to maintain marijuana's illegal status while maintaining alcohol and cigarettes as legal.

Anyway, if it wasn't pot, this guy would be doing something else illegal. He has been identified as someone who is well known by the police.

He has on occasion sped by police in his car to make them chase him so he could try to outrun the cops.

Obviously a nut bar. The real failing here, is the ability for an obviously mentally unstable person to obtain weapons and remain loose in the world.

We need even stronger gun laws and we need to push ahead with the gun registry even amid the strong resistance from the gun community. We also need to give our police the power to effectively search premises of people that exhibit this sort of eratic behaviour.

The murderer was able to hide his many guns when visited by police.

Quoting Airplay (reply 16): We need even stronger gun laws and we need to push ahead with the gun registry even amid the strong resistance from the gun community.

Some reporters are saying that the firearm used was a full-auto "assault weapon" - which is prohibited for purchase already (and grandfathered to those folks who purchased them before 1976).... and I have my doubts he would possess a current firearms license. However, with the mess which is the Canadian Firearms Centre, anything is possible....

And the suspect was involved, apparently, not only in production of contraband (marijuana) but also peddling in stolen property. Judging by his contempt for the law in that regard, I highly doubt he would've followed the laws pertaining to firearms ownership. As the old right-wing argument goes; if you ban guns for law-abiding citizens or make their possession prohibitively difficult, the only ones with guns will be criminals.... this incident - if it's proven the gun was purchased illegal or was otherwise a prohibited weapon - could be used to prove that.

It would also show the failiure of our current gun laws and the bloated registry which has sucked billions from the public coffers....

I agree that gun laws need to be more effective in order to protect public safety - but it's a matter of quality over sheer quantity. We don't need more laws regulating guns and making the lives of law-abiding citizens difficult - we need to revise the ones already on the books to make sense, and give law enforcement the tools which would be effective against those who would use guns illegally.

I also wonder if the outcome of this incident would have been different had some of the almost $2 billion dollars spent on the gun registry scheme had been spent on training and better equipment for those police officers....

Quote: We also need to give our police the power to effectively search premises of people that exhibit this sort of eratic behaviour.

From a libertarian's point of view, that's a scary statement. Who would determine what constitutes "erratic" behavior and thus, subject to search? A lawyer? ... A politician?

Being wierd or an a**hole is not grounds for a search warrant - everyone has rights in this country, despite the best attempts to erode them.

This guy may have been a wacko but he was protecting a marijuana grow-op.

Since ALL marijuana is grown illegally, every single Canadian who uses cannibis regularly or occasionally has the blood of these 4 cops on their hands. Shame shame!  

[Edited 2005-03-08 01:24:58]

Quoting Goose (reply 17): I also wonder if the outcome of this incident would have been different had some of the almost $2 billion dollars spent on the gun registry scheme had been spent on training and better equipment for those police officers....

Great questions, my feelign is that it is no, but that doesn't mean I feel that nearly 2.5 billion c that was spent so far on national registry was worth it either.

You are correct, only criminals will be able to get firearms if you ban them completely.

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 18): ince ALL marijuana is grown illegally, every single Canadian who uses cannibis regularly or occasionally has the blood of these 4 cops on their hands.

Here, here Yyz717. Here, here. Wonder how many folk here giving sympathy are guilty by association?   

Quoting Airplay (reply 16): We need even stronger gun laws and we need to push ahead with the gun registry even amid the strong resistance from the gun community.

C'mon Airplay, you don't REALLY think stronger gun laws would have saved these 4 Officers? What part of the following statement I'm going to make fails to transmit from your eyes to your hard drive . . .      

Ready . . . .   

If you outlaw ALL guns only the OUTLAWS will have guns. Understand that?

This guy is was already a felon, am I right? Yes.

He is aready NOT allowed to have a gun, am I right again? Yes.

Did he have guns anyway - not only guns - but fully automatic rifles? Yes.

Would it have made a hoot in hell to him (or any other criminal) if Canada made their already overly restrictive gun laws even stronger? NOOOOO!

Geez, let have more gun laws, and while we're at it ban knives, screwdrivers, drills, pencils, pens . . . . yadda, yadda, yadda . . . .

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 18): This guy may have been a wacko but he was protecting a marijuana grow-op.

This is not true, only a handful of pot plants were found on this heavily armed nutcase's property, the stakeout was primarily investigating stolen auto parts. The RCMP's own underestimation of just how dangerous this guy was played a large part in this tragedy, they should have sent in a tactical swat team.

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 18): Since ALL marijuana is grown illegally, every single Canadian who uses cannibis regularly or occasionally has the blood of these 4 cops on their hands. Shame shame!

Like many of your other posts this is simply antagonizing flamebait, it's like all of the gunowners that have illegally ignored registering their guns in the gun registry are somehow to blame for deaths from firearms.

The death of these 4 RCMP officers is tragic. It's sad to see people try to take advantage of it to promote their views.

The death of these 4 RCMP officers is tragic. It's sad to see people try to take advantage of it to promote their views.

It's even sadder that it's pot-heads in Canada whose demand for marijuana are fueling the illegal grow-ups such as this. Make no mistake, these deaths are completely tied to pot use. These 4 cops were responding to & investigating an illegal grow-up.

This might be a good time for all pot-smokers to look in the mirror and realize that their habit is fueling a massive organized crime wave.

Like many of your other posts this is simply antagonizing flamebait,

Blah blah blah. Unlike your posts which are wholesome and virginal right?  

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 22): It's even sadder that it's pot-heads in Canada whose demand for marijuana are fueling the illegal grow-ups such as this. Make no mistake, these deaths are completely tied to pot use. These 4 cops were responding to & investigating an illegal grow-up.

How many people are killed by drunk drivers? This is not a pot issue. This individual is tied to a great deal of illegal activity. Why not discuss the stolen cars in his possession....then blame people who own cars for the deaths of these officers?

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 20): C'mon Airplay, you don't REALLY think stronger gun laws would have saved these 4 Officers? What part of the following statement I'm going to make fails to transmit from your eyes to your hard drive .

I've learned that there is no sense trying to argue with gun nuts. Your argument is non-sensical just like every other victim of the gun culture.

So let's arm up, load up and live in a safer world? Any other vaulable tidbits you want to share?

Quoting Airplay (reply 23): Your argument is non-sensical just like every other victim of the gun culture.

Ok Airplay.

I could argue that it is hard to argue with gun grabbing nuts, their arguements are nonsensical.

Lets rephrase the question.

Why don't you tell me what law should have prevented these deaths.

Was it the one where full auto was banned in Canada, some forty years after it was in the US?

Was it the one where semi-auto rifles where banned in Canada.....nope wasn't a semi that was used.

Was it the one that banned pistols in Canada...couldn't be, one wasn't used

Was it the one that established a 2 billion dollar national owners registry in Canada? Doubt it, I don't think this guy would have had an illigelly owned weapon registered with the nazi's on Ottawa.

So what law would have prevented this from happening?

I don't see one, and all of those I listed where allegedly put on the books to do just that.

Frankly I think that the fact this happened in a country that is so oppresive of the publics right to own firearms shows that these laws don't work.

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 22): It's even sadder that it's pot-heads in Canada whose demand for marijuana are fueling the illegal grow-ups such as this. Make no mistake, these deaths are completely tied to pot use. These 4 cops were responding to & investigating an illegal grow-up.

The demand for marijuana has always been and will continue to be significant. All of the effort and the money being spent to fight it is a waste, it would be better to legalize it.

Quoting Yukimizake (reply 25): The demand for marijuana has always been and will continue to be significant. All of the effort and the money being spent to fight it is a waste, it would be better to legalize it.

Funny I feel the same way about the 2 billion that was spent on the national registry.

Quoting L-188 (reply 26): Funny I feel the same way about the 2 billion that was spent on the national registry.

Part of the reason for the huge cost is the resistance of gun owners. Seems these people have something to hide. I wonder if Mr. Roszko would be one of those resisting the gun registry? One of your so-called "outlaws" that own guns.

Quoting L-188 (reply 26): Funny I feel the same way about the 2 billion that was spent on the national registry

On this we agree, the gun registry was flawed from the outset, it's both unnecessary and ineffective. Limiting access to guns is sufficient, there's no need to make western farmers feel like criminals.

Quoting Airplay (reply 27): Part of the reason for the huge cost is the resistance of gun owners. Seems these people have something to hide. I wonder if Mr. Roszko would be one of those resisting the gun registry? One of your so-called "outlaws" that own guns.

If it's true that Roszko was firing a full-auto "assault weapon" at the officers as has been reported, and was not a grandfathered owner of one (unlikely, given he'd be in his late teens when they were prohibited in 1976), he would not be permitted to even own such a weapon, much less register one with the Canada Firearms Centre registry.

The fact that he was a convicted felon should have negated him from owning firearms at all - legally, that is.

Quoting L-188 (reply 24): Quoting Airplay (reply 23): Your argument is non-sensical just like every other victim of the gun culture. Ok Airplay. I could argue that it is hard to argue with gun grabbing nuts, their arguements are nonsensical. Lets rephrase the question. Why don't you tell me what law should have prevented these deaths.

He's got no answer - he's like everyone else that wants to ban every weapon on the planet. That way only the criminals will have them. Damn Canadian gun ban didn't work with this bad guy did it Airplay. And it won't work with the next bad guy that decides he wants one either . . . wake up.

Quoting Goose (reply 29): The fact that he was a convicted felon should have negated him from owning firearms at all - legally, that is.

So, Goose, just like I've been saying - contrary to Airplays delusions - Canada's gun ban did nothing to prevent this bad guy form owning and using a weapon . . . is that a fair statement?

Quoting Airplay (reply 23): I've learned that there is no sense trying to argue with gun nuts

Probably because calling someone a "gun nut" is not a good start to a productive discussion.


LY744.

The 18th amendment to the American constitution in 1920, which prohibited the manufacture, sale and transport of alcoholic beverages also fueled a huge organised crime industry. The moonshiners in the mountains or the rum runners back then
were just as fast in opening fire on police officers as the guys with their illegal pot gardens, not even speaking about the mafia gangs in the cities (actually the prohibition of alcohol only gave them a field of business, which gave them the capital to spread out to other prohibited activities after the law was repealed in 1933).

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 33): were just as fast in opening fire on police officers as the guys with their illegal pot gardens, not even speaking about the mafia gangs in the cities

And banning weapons would certainly have stopped this activity . . .   

Sgtmaj,

What do you think was the public reason for NFA in I think 1931?

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 35): What do you think was the public reason for NFA in I think 1931?

Good Morning Jan -

1934 - it was intended to "ban or limit sale and transfer of Machine Guns, Destructive devices and Certain Other Firearms by essentially taxing the hell out of the importers, manufacturers and dealers; setting up a gun registration, etc, etc, etc . . . .

It didn't work either.

Here, have a look: http://keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm

Sgtmaj,

Good morning! Here is it already night time and I´m just back from 3 hours working out and an hour in the sauna....

I know, IMO today´s ban of pot is similar to the 1920s prohibition of alcohol and equaly futile. And just as back then criminals who have a lot to loose after an arrest will not bother if their weapon is legal or not.

Jan

[Edited 2005-03-08 22:55:40]

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37): I know, IMO today´s ban of pot is similar to the 1920s prohibition of alcohol and equaly futile. And just as back then criminals who have a lot to loose after an arrest will not bother if their weapon is legal or not.

We are in agreement - not much has changed in that light in 80 years. Not likely to change in another 80.

There will still be a drug problem (no matter the law).

There will still be illegally possessed weapons (no matter the law).

Have a great evening . . . my day is just starting . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): So, Goose, just like I've been saying - contrary to Airplays delusions - Canada's gun ban did nothing to prevent this bad guy form owning and using a weapon . . . is that a fair statement?

You are ignoring the obvious. This is just one incident. The fact that there is an overwhelmingly larger incidence of violent crime involving firearms in the US proves that restrictions on gun ownership works.

So indeed, Canada's gun laws didn't prevent this guy, but they seem to be preventing a great deal of similar incidents. The liberal US gun laws are the reason you have about 4 times (per capita) violent crimes involving firearms in the US. Is that a fair statement?

Quoting Airplay (Reply 39): The fact that there is an overwhelmingly larger incidence of violent crime involving firearms in the US proves that restrictions on gun ownership works

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. I can tell you this . . . . I have never, in the short time I've been carrying a badge, had to deal with the LEGAL owner of a gun doing something stupid (murder, robbery, vice, drugs). Every single time, it's a ILLEGAL gun owner - already a felon, already a proven criminal and an illegally procurred weapon.

You will never, ever convince me, or anyone else that has any sense, that LEGAL gun owners are dangerous to the public. Period.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 39): So indeed, Canada's gun laws didn't prevent this guy, but they seem to be preventing a great deal of similar incidents.

Can you prove this? Noooooo. Sure can't.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 39): The liberal US gun laws are the reason you have about 4 times (per capita) violent crimes involving firearms in the US. Is that a fair statement?

No - see my first reply this post. Honestly. If I had to worry about the LEGAL gun owners as well as the ILLEGAL gun owners I'd quit this job. I'd never get a break.

Whoops....I screwed up. According to nationmaster.com, the rate of people who are killed by firearms (per capita) in the US is about 15 times the rate in Canada.

Sorry about that folks....and please....keep your heads down!

You will never, ever convince me, or anyone else that has any sense, that LEGAL gun owners are dangerous to the public. Period.

I know I'll never convince you. You are blinded by the huge (overwhelming really) gun culture you are immersed in.

It's like trying to tell a southern baptist that Jesus doesn't exist. Or telling Rodney King that all cops are good...

No - see my first reply this post. Honestly. If I had to worry about the LEGAL gun owners as well as the ILLEGAL gun owners I'd quit this job. I'd never get a break.

So what's the difference? Legal gun owners can be just as capable of commiting a crime as illegal gun owers. Actually they have an advantage since they already have a gun.

Check out the stats regarding shootings. Most victims know their killers.

[Edited 2005-03-09 01:36:12]

Quoting Airplay (Reply 41): Whoops....I screwed up. According to nationmaster.com, the rate of people who are killed by firearms (per capita) in the US is about 15 times the rate in Canada.

Might even be higher . . . . but I'll make the bet, if you pursued the data you'd find they were illegally owned or procurred weapons. Of course, you won't go that far, because then your entire argument goes down the shitter - it already has, you just can't admit it. You'll get over it sooner or later.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42): Might even be higher . . . . but I'll make the bet, if you pursued the data you'd find they were illegally owned or procurred weapons. Of course, you won't go that far, because then your entire argument goes down the shitter - it already has, you just can't admit it. You'll get over it sooner or later.

Yah right. So-called "legal" gun owners aren't capable of crime? Is that what you're saying? And you're a cop? Scary.....

Quoting Airplay (Reply 43): Yah right. So-called "legal" gun owners aren't capable of crime? Is that what you're saying

I didn't say that Airplay - don't put words in my mouth. Read again what I wrote.

We could argue this more - but clearly it's getting no where. I could throw out numbers, you could to . . . getting no where.

The anti-gun/gun ban argument will never be solved . . . as long as their are people like you and people like me, it will continue.

You can keep posting your anti-gun rhetoric if you'd like. It won't bring back the four dead officers killed by the fruit loop with the stolen autoparts and illegal MJ growing operation . . . . and the illegally owned weapon . . . I'm done with this thread, and with you.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22): It's even sadder that it's pot-heads in Canada whose demand for marijuana are fueling the illegal grow-ups such as this. Make no mistake, these deaths are completely tied to pot use. These 4 cops were responding to & investigating an illegal grow-up.

Ok there are pot-heads everywhere and if a movie like Traffic is at all accurate this is very common with illegal drug trade and often it is the dealers who kill each other and this happens much more than reported this is probably a very common thing in southern California because most of the illegal narcotics in the US are imported from Mexico. This is a rare thing in Canada to happen and I would really like to know having tried this stuff how it is as dangerous as cocaine or heroin and deserves to be in the same class as it. Now Canada is working on decriminalizing it which would make it possession the equivalent of say a speeding ticket, a move I agree with because this drug has not been directly responsible for the deaths of anyone. This incident is indirect because these officers were not killed by the drug but by someone producing it. Now excluding the US shutting down the border and virtually al trade if we did what would be wrong with legalizing weed in this country as it has been proven that it is less dangerous than even alcohol.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 41): Whoops....I screwed up. According to nationmaster.com, the rate of people who are killed by firearms (per capita) in the US is about 15 times the rate in Canada.

Ok Airplay gun control is not the issue here at all that guy has weapons that it is illegal for civilians to have which has been proven. ANCFlyer are right in this regard.

ANCFlyer and L-188 answer me this why in the United States is the firearm murder rate so much higher than in Canada, France, the UK, and Austrailia, Germany etc.? All these nations are first world with good education systems, low poverty rates, similar cultures, they are all free, they all have good human rights records etc. The only difference is that the US has less gun control laws and I agree that is doesn't make much of a difference in the terms of crimes like this but why without using gun control is your gun murder rate higher that other first world countries.

Starac17, I have to think it's because there are so many guns available, illegally.

As I mentioned to Airplay, I haven't seen a lot of legal gun owners comitting a lot of crimes. In every case, where a gun has been used in any case I've investigated, it has been a gun illegally owned, by someone who was already a criminal or was in the process of comitting their first criminal act. I ahve never worked a case where the legal owner of a gun has committed a crime using the legally owned weapon. It's that simple.

No amount of gun control is going to prevent the bad guys from obtaining and using illegal weapons, no matter how you phrase it, enforce it, play with the words, etc - it simply won't happen. Period.

I'm going to assume your figures are per-capita as well. . . . obviously, if they weren't, they wouldn't make sense.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 31): Probably because calling someone a "gun nut" is not a good start to a productive discussion.

Hey I am an airplane nut too.....why else would I hang out here  

I hate it when somebody tries using a legitimate hobby as a bad thing.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): 1934 - it was intended to "ban or limit sale and transfer of Machine Guns, Destructive devices and Certain Other Firearms by essentially taxing the hell out of the importers, manufacturers and dealers; setting up a gun registration, etc, etc, etc . . . . It didn't work either.

Actually the biggest push by people to keep these laws on the books are by those who allready own the weapons. The manufacture bans make the ones that are allready on the market go up in value. In many cases for the owners, having one is an investment, that does better then the stock market.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 39): The fact that there is an overwhelmingly larger incidence of violent crime involving firearms in the US proves that restrictions on gun ownership works.

Actually accross the boards there tends to be less crime in Canada, period. Maybe it is the fact we are squeezing 10 times the population into the same footprint. Maybe it is because of welfare policies in this country, we created vast urban slums in the 1960's and 70's.

But gun laws are not the reason.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 41): You are blinded by the huge (overwhelming really) gun culture you are immersed in.

And that comment comes from somebody blinded by the gun banners.

Quoting STARAC17 (Reply 45): ANCFlyer and L-188 answer me this why in the United States is the firearm murder rate so much higher than in Canada, France, the UK, and Austrailia, Germany etc.?

I think I offered some suggestions above.

Also I think the influences of society have a hell of a lot to do with it. Germany for example is much harsher on showing acts of violence on TV, radio, movies and video games.

First hand example:

During the first season of "Star Trek-The Next Generation" there was an episode where this alien worm tries to take over Star Fleet by crawling into the commanding officers bodies. The climax of the show is when Picard and Riker shoot the "Queen" worm. The first shot from the two of them with their phasers blows up the body of the human the worm effected, the second shot they vaporize the worm with their phasers.

Fake weapons, in a fictional setting and in truth a fake way to kill somebody. However that scene at the end of the show I just described was cut when that episode was aired on German television, I saw both versions, the US one here and the German one when I was stationed over there. Of course the krauts and europeans in general are more tolerant of sex acts and sexuality being shown on TV then Americans are.

Another comment:

When I was living out in bush Alaska, the village I was in had a guy that was hired to be a drug and alchohol counciler to the outlying villages. Anyway one day in the resturant and he commented how the general area the village we where in was about the same size as his home town of Pittsburg, PA. In our town there was about 80 people. Pittsburg had god knows how many mil. In that town if you saw a bunch of teenagers walking around brandishing guns, the cops and the population would freak out.

Anyway he made mention of this as he describe the neighbors teenagers loading up their four wheelers with themselves and enough small arms to equip a small south american army (His words). They where going to go out ptarmigan hunting (I love this place, we can shoot the state bird).

Here where kids that didn't associate guns with gang violence, violence or crime. Who had a role in their family that wasn't limited to paying the x-box. Who could contribute something to their families welfare, the food that they got while hunting.

I would say that is a good thing.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 46): I ahve never worked a case where the legal owner of a gun has committed a crime using the legally owned weapon. It's that simple.

Where do you work? In Fargo? So-called "legal" firearms have a nasty habit of being stolen. The very fact that someone who doesn't legally own the firearm they commit the crime with doesn't negate the fact that they may have aquired it from the premises of someone who obtained it legally.

Just having a legal firearm in the house increases the chances that guns will eventually find their way to criminals.

Here's an interesting article from South Africa:

http://www.gca.org.za/facts/briefs/41.htm

The availability of firearms to criminals

In general, interviewees thought that it was not inordinately difficult for criminals to obtain firearms. However, accessing licensed weapons may be even easier. Police in Cape Town, for instance, reported knowing of numerous instances where people without criminal records applied for firearm licenses and then rented these weapons out.

And don't feel left out in the US. You guys have approximately 2 million stolen guns distributed throughout the nation according to the FBI.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

It appears to me that the "legal" gun market is just a temporary broker for the illegal gun market. Just keep flooding the market boys...

Quoting Airplay (Reply 48): Just keep flooding the market boys...

It could be worse, In europe the arms are comming from the east, stolen from military depots.

Which means that they are full auto, and one could make the arguement, more destructive then any that would have been stolen in a civilian home.

Quoting Airplay (Reply 48): Here's an interesting article from South Africa:

Newsflash: I'm not in South Africa. Find me something relevent to read and I'll entertain it.