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airplay
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 50):
Newsflash: I'm not in South Africa. Find me something relevent to read and I'll entertain it.


Newsflash....read to the end of my last post. I know you guys have a short attention span, but try to stay in there until the end...
 Smile
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:24 pm

And your entire post - and the article from South Africa as well . . . . it's estimated that 44% of the illegal weapons in South Africa have been stolen from legal gun owners . . . yadda, yadda, yadda.

Now, I repeat myself . . . . I don't live in South Africa - get me something relevent to read.

Your last sentence of the post you're thinking I ignored might have merit - show me a source for the conclusion. Give me something relevent to read other than your unsourced, or ill-sourced, conclusions.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting Airplay (Reply 48):
It appears to me that the "legal" gun market is just a temporary broker for the illegal gun market.


So does that mean that car dealerships and legal car purchases are just temporary brokers for stolen car market?

So does that mean that liquor stores are temporary markets for teenage drinkers?

Your argument doesn't make a lick of sense.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:28 pm

It's easy really. Here's the source again. Just point and click:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

Its from the US department of Justice. Sorry if you still think its irrelevant. But then again most gun "fans" don't trust the "gummint".
 
L-188
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting Airplay (Reply 54):
But then again most gun "fans" don't trust the "gummint".


Well it could be worse, Carolyn Parrish comes right to mind.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 55):
Well it could be worse, Carolyn Parrish comes right to mind.


What on earth does she have to do with anything? If you're gonna take potshots try to chose relevant references....

[Edited 2005-03-09 04:36:33]
 
L-188
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:38 pm

Well, you seemed to be asking for legitimate reasons not to trust the goverment, she sprang right to mind.

As far as the DOJ figures. Those are in dispute, many of the people who work in the DOJ got their jobs during the dark days of the Hillary presidency and therefore share those racist left wing ideas.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 57):
Well, you seemed to be asking for legitimate reasons not to trust the goverment, she sprang right to mind.


Didn't she once say about Bush after his election victory: "I wouldn't guess what's next on his agenda, but it's probably not peace and love."

Sounds reasonable to me...

 Smile

Quoting L-188 (Reply 57):
As far as the DOJ figures. Those are in dispute, many of the people who work in the DOJ got their jobs during the dark days of the Hillary presidency and therefore share those racist left wing ideas.


Yes. Victims of the "gun culture" always use that excuse. L-188, rest assured, I'm not trying to change your mind. I know that's impossible. I just want to show people how illiogical the gun culture's arguments are. And you guys are helping me do that very well...thank you!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting Airplay (Reply 54):
gummint


Ha Ha . .. we usually spell that guVmint . . . . but it is funny.

I read the Articles, both of them . . . matter of fact, I printed the one from the DoJ.

I'd like to see more info on the use of Assault Weapons - post-ban. I guess the feds think that because there was a ban in place, assault weapons wouldn't be used in crimes.

Good thing is, none of the weapons I own are on the "most-used" - most traced - list.

Have a look at page 1 of the DoJ memo - right there in the box, the very first and very second sentence in the section marked HIGHLIGHTS.

Furthermore, I don't see any info in the 7 or so pages that discusses crimes committed with handguns by law abiding citizens owning legally procurred weapons . . . .

Quoting Airplay (Reply 48):
Where do you work? In Fargo?


We don't have a Fargo, Alaska . . . Big grin

This is 10 year old data by the way.

[Edited 2005-03-09 04:52:11]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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yyz717
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:27 pm

Looser gun laws encourage more legal gun ownership, which encourages more gun theft and.or illegal gun sales from initial legit gun owners.

Tighten up the gun laws and the supply of legal (and hence illegal) weapons will dry up. There will be fewer gun murders, and hence more Americans will live another day. Simple recipe.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 59):
There will be fewer gun murders, and hence more Americans will live another day.


And that was the theory behind prohibition too and that didn't work either.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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yyz717
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:25 pm

And that was the theory behind prohibition too and that didn't work either.

Yeah, it did. Alcohol consumption plummetted during prohibition.

Studies throughout the US have shown that many legitimate gun owners have their weapons stolen, or sell them under the table. Someone quoted a similar study from South Africa above. The #1 source of illegal guns in Canada, South Africa, the US is from legal sources. Hence, reduce the legal quantity and you reduce the resulting illegal quantity.

You are a gun advocate L-188 and until a relative of yours dies from random gunshot, you will not change your mind on gun laws. If you prefer to live with a greater risk that your mother will be randomly shot just so your grannie can keep a gun, so be it.

EVERY illegal gun used to be legally owned at some point. Think about that.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
greasespot
Topic Author
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:57 pm

People this was not started so you could debat gun control. Show a little respect and move to another thread if that is what you want to to. It is not to assign blame or responsibility either. If you want to do that move on.

It was started out of respect for 4 officers killed.

Back to the topic. The first constable was laid to rest yesterday in Stony Plain Alberta and 10,000 + people showed up.

Ther is going to be a big memorial in ottawa on thursday here.


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Airplay (Reply 42):
Yah right. So-called "legal" gun owners aren't capable of crime? Is that what you're saying? And you're a cop? Scary.....

I don´t know toom much about Canada, but I know a lot of licenced gun owners in Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, plus some licenced machine gun collectors in the US (this way I learned about the gun laws in the US).
These guys are keeping themselves scrupelously clean, because they know that even a small infraction will cause them to loose their licence and often lots of money if a collection get confiscated.
They know that even driving drunk can cause them lots of trouble.
And after the school massacres following Columbine, with similar crackpots trying to imitate the crime to get into the headlines (son breaks into dad´s gun cabinet and steals the gun. Dad is a licenced hunter), you can bet that gun owners make sure that their guns are safely locked away when not needed and don´t even trust people in their own family if they are not authorised. So now gun cabinets are certified safes and not anymore glass fronted diplay cabinets.

Often gun owners know the relevant laws better than the average police officer (as I´ve found out myself while travelling to a collector´s meeting with two deacts. The cop didn´t even know the difference between transporting a gun , unloaded and in a locked case, ammunition in a seperate locked case, and carrying one, for which you´ll need a special licence, loaded, ready to use in public. He also didn´t know that once a gun is deactivated, it is not considered as a weapon anymore and kept tellling me that I needed a licence to transport it in a locked case without ammo (which it wouldn´t chamber and fire anyway).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L-188
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RE: 4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 63):
(son breaks into dad´s gun cabinet and steals the gun. Dad is a licenced hunter), you can bet that gun owners make sure that their guns are safely locked away when not needed and don´t even trust people in their own family if they are not authorised[/quote}

There was another school shooting prior to Columbine. Kids got the weapons by taking a welding torch to their granddads safe.

Does that mean he was improperly storing them.....personally I say no.


[quote=Yyz717,reply=61]You are a gun advocate L-188 and until a relative of yours dies from random gunshot, you will not change your mind on gun laws. If you prefer to live with a greater risk that your mother will be randomly shot just so your grannie can keep a gun, so be it.


No I probably won't change my mind aftwards. I my life I have known so far two people who have killed themselves with firearms...do I blame the gun fo this...no. I have had to live on what my dad shot, do I think that having access to firearms was good then, yes.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 61):

EVERY illegal gun used to be legally owned at some point. Think about that.


I would argue if that isn't true, and would be particularly untrue if an outright ban was forced on the world. Fact is that organized crime would find profit in setting up manufacturing arms underground and then selling them to gangs and the like.

Hey, it happened in the 1930's, remember bathtub gin. It is happening today, the RCMP was raiding a hemp farm, we have met labs appearing all over the damm place. Why would setting up a very simple machine shop to make firearms be that big of a stretch.

Besides many military arms, the Sten, Grease Gun and other designs where made specificly for ease of manufacture.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD11Engineer
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4 Rcmp Officers Killed

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:49 pm

As L-188 said, most illegal guns here in central Europe (and with this I mean 95% and up) stem either from previous European civil war zone like Yugoslavia or Albania or from the collapse of the former Communist governments.
In the GDR, each town hall had an armoury for the local Stasi (internal intelligence service) officers, including AK-47s and RPG-7s. Many party officials above a certain level were allowed to own side arms.
In bigger cities you had armouries of the worker´s militia, a paramilitary organisation trained to do rear area security during war. Under the East German government these armouries were heaviliy guarded, but when the wall fell, many of the stasi guards deserted their posts, leaving the armouries unguarded.
Since the locations were often only known to insiders, the new government didn´t know that they existed, so they couldn´t place new guards for several weeks, until they found out about them. In several cases the authorities only noticed the existense of these armouries after teenagers broke into the deserted buildings and stole aussault weapons and rocket propelled grenades.

A few years ago in Albania, the government collapsed after a lottery scandal, which cost millions of their population all their savings. During riots which followed for several weeks, military armouries were looted, often with the help of the Albanian mafia, which got a strong foothold in western Europe by now, second only to the Russian one.
If you buy a black market AK or a Makarov pistol inGermany, chances are great that it will be an Albanian one. Another source are weapons smuggled over the western Europe by veterans from the various factions of the Yugoslav civil wars in the 1980s-90s.
These are the majority of waeapons used in crime, mostly directly connected to the different mafia organisations. Though it became a status symbol for e.g. pimps to own an AK, instead of their pit bull terriers, the run of the mill burlar usually doesn´t carry a gun.

Then there are still WW2 and WW1 weapons hidden away, but people, who e.g. might find them during renovation of an a old building just keep them secret. hese guns will probably never be used in a crime (except for their existence as illegal guns, under German law, there is no provision for somebody who finds an old gun and wants to keep to get it legalised. He´ll have to hand it over to the police and this is the last he will ever see of it, even if it got high historical significance).

Despite complaints from the conservative side (who want to have all laws made stricter), the level of violent crime is quite low over here. I personally feel quite safe walking out at night time without carrying a weapon. The only time I ever carried one (in this case a knife) was when I was personally stalked by the ex husband of my former wife, who had a history of violence (he later got sentenced for aggrevated assault and did time). After he got arrested, I left the knife at home.

I think a culture of violence has more to do with education and movies. Look at how many ghetto kids think that you´ll have to hold a handgun sideways to shoot, because it looks cool. It is a matter of imitating false idols.
L-188 is also right, violence on TV or video games is much stricter censored over here than in the US. When I was visiting the homes of American friends in Berlin (soldiers of the now disbanded US Army Berlin Brigade), I was always surprised at what movies they would let their 5-7 year old kids watch, full of blood and gore, while, as soon as a couple would kiss on the screen, the kids were sent out of the room.

Yesterday night I stumbled into a program on German ARD TV (Panorama), where they showed some real nasty amateur movies made by American GIs in Iraq (I don´t want to start a new American bashing Iraq thread, please, so keep it low), what I noticed was how young those kids were (IMO some didn´t even need to shave yet, but I´ve got the same opinion about the Bundeswehr soldiers I see in the street outside my home, there is a big barracks about a block down my street) and how they treated the situations as if they were out of a video game. If the same type of youngsters is out on American streets with guns, I´m not surprised about a high rate of dead.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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