After hearing about how the 2 year old wean in Glasgow was killed by an Air Gun, it has proved yet again that the law in the UK at least is way too soft on Gun owners and guns.
In my opinion, I think something needs to be done about Guns because all they cause is sufferring.
Who else would back a worldwide ban?

BUt how would one control world wide ban.Its like controlling drugs...

And what if a bunch of people rob a bank with a bunch of AKs then what would the police do. And if the police have guns, then it wouldnt be a ban and it would start over again.

I belive that there should be tougher laws in order to get guns, but a ban would never work.

uh...bad idea GKirk, never happen. how many people can we piss off today...
why don't we put a worldwide ban on cigarettes? they're bad too.

Oh bullshit - here we go again with irresponsible gun owners doing stupid shit and now we all want to ban guns - again . . . . . .

Not worth my time.

Bad idea.

1. An Air pistol is not a firearm. Just like a crossbow and a compound bow are two different things.

2. Objects like guns do not cause suffering people do. Banning objects will not end suffering.

I am pround to live in a country where the right to keep and bear arms is not supposed to be infrindged on.

Makes my country a better place.

MNeo, sure the police and armies can have them, but not ordinary people.
SLC1, but guns are used for murdering, cigarettes as you say are bad, but will not kill or wound you instantly

btw... if i were living in Jo'burg, I'd want the right to my gun

Quoting Gkirk (reply 0): I think something needs to be done about Guns because all they cause is sufferring. Who else would back a worldwide ban?

I'll type a real response to this when I quit laughing.

The quote used to be "Ignorance is bliss" I think it should be changed to "Idealism is bliss" Seems the two words are growing closer and closer together.

CaptOveur, think of it this way, if someone that you knew and were close to was killed by a gun, would you not think this way?

Quoting Gkirk (reply 5): MNeo, sure the police and armies can have them, but not ordinary people. SLC1, but guns are used for murdering, cigarettes as you say are bad, but will not kill or wound you instantly

yeah try and enforce it, what about hunters who'd be pissed? and what about in a place, like i said, jo'burg, where even pussy liberals like me would want a gun.

and yeah, i know, i was just trying to say how many people you'd piss off (and btw...neither will most drugs)

Ok, I admit it would be extremly difficult to enforce.

which is why appropriate gun controls and not a gun ban is the answer

Quoting Gkirk (reply 5): SLC1, but guns are used for murdering

So are knives. So are baseball bats. And crowbars. And rope. And household chemicals. And your bare hands. Let's go ahead and ban those too. That way there won't be any more murders.  

Harry

Quoting Newark777 (reply 12): So are knives. So are baseball bats. And crowbars. And rope. And household chemicals. And your bare hands. Let's go ahead and ban those too. That way there won't be any more murders. Yeah sure Harry

Now, I'm not anti-gun, but let's not forget incidents like, well to use an old cliché, Columbine, would that have been possible without guns, i don't think so. There's no crossfire with knives or baseball bats. Yeah, if someone wants to kill someone, they're going to do it, but I'd rather a crazy person (or a kid) get a hold of some rope than a gun. Oh and there's never been a drive-by stabbing.

[Edited 2005-03-05 00:23:23]

Well murder is already illegal.

Has been illegal just about everywhere for thousands of years.

How's that working out?

Technically the concept of banning, while has merit, the exact opposite happens more often than forethought.

I say rather we unban, seriously. Let all idiots kill themselves off, yes they will drag some of us but not all. The rest will live in relative peace.

Quoting Gkirk (reply 8): CaptOveur, think of it this way, if someone that you knew and were close to was killed by a gun, would you not think this way?

It depends if I was the one that shot them or not.   

Slamclick pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one:

Quoting SlamClick (reply 14): Well murder is already illegal. Has been illegal just about everywhere for thousands of years. How's that working out?

Banning guns won't solve anything. Criminals don't follow the laws already, does anyone honestly believe that making guns illegal will make them think twice about getting one?

"Gee I was going to shoot that guy, but having a gun is illegal, I think I will just beat him with a baseball bat.. Or maybe because my weapon of choice is illegal I will just leave him alone so we can all make the world a happy place" *skips off into sunset*

Do you honestly think this is what goes on in the head of a criminal?

Banning an item or behavior has rarely solved any of the problems related to said behavior or item. Just look how prohibition worked out in the United States. Not only did it cause a rise in orgainized crime and complicated judicial issues, it also saddled the US with the Kennedy family for generations. Drunken driving kills and maims many innocents each week, but the consequences of banning alcoholic drinks were simply too much for society to bear. Look at the current struggle with illegal drugs.

There are two things in the world that are impossible to legislate, morality and intelligence. You cannot stop people from doing bad or stupid things just by taking away their favorite means to do so. People are incredibly resourceful and the moderately determined will find other ways. Now that guns have been invented, you can never put the genie back in the bottle. Even if you could enact a world wide ban, and confiscate all existing guns, the equipment to manufacture them is widely available at reasonable prices. You would create a unregulated, unknowable black market.

A better deterent is to create a larger disincentive to commit crimes with guns. At some point, the risk of commiting the crime will be outweighed by the consequences of getting caught. Better too, is to educate legitmate gun owners on how to keep thier weapons from being used for illicit purposes.

A slight modification - leave all the guns concentrated where they are now, banana republics, 3rd world shit holes, civil wars, scared shitless american homes - and let them do all the killing amongst themsleves.

Now THAT makes MY world better.

damn, here we go again.

Guns do not kill people, people kill people. Either through ignorance in operating the equipment, or generally just pissed off. If you want the killings to stop or least subside alittle bit, start teaching kids in their lower teen years about gun safety and how to operate a gun (I'm not saying that a 13 year should have one, but knowledge is a good thing). The more they know about them, the less they want to explore it, and try using it not knowing what to expect (recoil??). So, let them try out guns at a shooting range or other controlled enviroments to get the idea of what their messing with.

How 'bout, in order to have a gun, you must be mentally capable (along with others who co-habitate with you), responsible (i.e. have a place to secure them as opposed to leaving them in the gun rack of your truck), and maybe, just maybe, be able to demonstrate that you know how to use one (i.e. pass a test / take a course).

If you're going to take the guns out of anyone's hands, take it out of those who don't know how to properly and safely use them. I grew up around guns and from an early age was taught to respect and at the same time fear them. My dad would never do something stupid like leaving a gun loaded. When you hear of some kid accidentally killing another one with a gun found in the home, it's because the gun owner was stupid and left the gun loaded. Not because the kid pulled out the box of ammo and loaded the gun themselves (Like most kids really know how to load a gun at a young age), because someone in the house left the gun in a unsecured place and left it loaded (My dad didn't have a gun safe, he left his guns sitting out in one room in a gun rack, and have the ammo locked up elsewhere.). When you hear of some kid shooting another kid over something trival, instead of blaming guns, they need to be questioning how that kid got that gun.

If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have them.

So, in this worldwide gun ban, who gets to keep guns?

Military and Police? Who is going to enforce the ban? United Nations? They've done a good job with everything else they've put their hands into. Of course, the United Nations people would keep guns, because they'll need them to take our guns away.

Let's see who else gets to keep their guns? People who don't care about the law. That means that (gasp) criminals will have guns. And civilians won't. But wait, the police will have guns and they can catch the criminal after he kills my family and me. Oh wait that's the "scared shitless american" in me talking. In the world of PacificJourney and GKirk all the world will throw their guns away and we'll all live happily ever after. No oppressive governments or common criminals.

I'm a proud gun-owner. Here's to America not falling prey to total gun-control like Germany did before WWII.

-R

Actually, I should rephrase that to say that I support gun-ownership. I haven't finalized purchase on any guns for my own self, just yet.

-R

You should read more carefully Air2gxs. I want you to keep ALL the guns, that way it's you and yours dieing vastly more violent deaths and not me and mine. Just so long as you go down shooting I suppose ....

Wow, I guess this subject will repeat itself forever. Some are wise on the subject (and speak eloquently so), and some are dreamers (and also speak eleoquently so, but they are still dreaming). Damn, what a bore.

May the dreamers of 'utopian' societies controlled by strict-rule governments live forever in bliss !!!

Yet another endless argument about machinery vs. the man/woman who uses machinery to a negative. I'd probably hit the 'suggest delete', but when bored, such threads are positive in a way of identifying people with "no clue". Regards...Jack

Ok, I admit it would be extremly difficult to enforce

Extremely difficult? Try IMPOSSIBLE...

Until you are able to comprehend the simple fact that criminals don't obey ANY law, let alone a gun control law, you are dreaming. Go back to your sheep...

Quoting Gkirk (reply 0): After hearing about how the 2 year old wean in Glasgow was killed by an Air Gun, it has proved yet again that the law in the UK at least is way too soft on Gun owners and guns.

An air gun?? You don't mean those pistol-like things that you cock once and they fire a hard plastic bead? They can't penetrate the skin from 10 feet, the only way they could kill you is if you were to choke on one.

Quoting Pacificjourney (reply 25): You should read more carefully Air2gxs. I want you to keep ALL the guns, that way it's you and yours dieing vastly more violent deaths and not me and mine. Just so long as you go down shooting I suppose ....

That's right, gun owners only kill themselves, following the unwritten law not to kill the unarmed. Give me a break. You are just as likely to have your house broken into and get shot to death as a gun owner, only you won't have any recourse to protect yourself.

Harry

Quoting Pacificjourney (reply 25): I want you to keep ALL the guns, that way it's you and yours dieing vastly more violent deaths and not me and mine. Just so long as you go down shooting I suppose ....

Is the weather nice in this dream world you live in? I don't know where you get your information but most of the shootings in the US happen in the inner cities when two gang members decide to shoot at each other. I am sure they really worried about the gun laws before they bought their weapons out of the trunk of someones low-rider.

The problem isn't the guns, it's the people stupid.

You can't fix a social problem by taking away a hunk of steel.

I live in the suburbs, I own a few guns. I can tell you NONE, not one of them is presently loaded or unlocked. I am anything but scared. However, I see no reason that my lack of fear should be a reason to give up my guns. They do have uses other than self defense you know.

I wonder how many children in US has been killed by guns in homes, drive-by shootings etc. etc.

YOU keep ém, we dont wan ém!  

Micke

Quoting Solnabo (reply 31): I wonder how many children in US has been killed by guns in homes, drive-by shootings etc. etc.

Why should I be forced to pay the price because some stupid, irresponsible moron left a loaded gun within the reach of children? A lot of this is what I call "thinning the herd." There is an above average possibility that the moron who left the loaded gun within the reach of the kids was probably also a contributor of genetic material for said child. It is probably best that genetic material not live to reproduce again.

Drive by shootings is also a social problem, not a gun problem. Take away the guns and those clowns will probably do something almost as moronic, like burn the house down or something. No, that will probably not improve their accuracy or reduce the likelyhood of them killing someone innocent.

Two gang members gunning each other down is also another example of thinning the herd, every gang member killed is one less criminal on the streets. Maybe we should do away with gun laws alltogether and let the inner cities turn into a regular wild west. I can't remember the last time I was downtown or in another not so great area of town after dark where I live anyway.. In a few months the murder problem, a lot of the drug problems, and a few other social ills might fix themself. The innocent people living there might want to move out for a while though.

The solution is not more ineffective laws that nobody follows or knows how to enforce. The solution is not fewer guns. It would be nice if things were that simple, it really would.

I still don't see anyone explaining why the responsible, law abiding citizens (a majority) should have a right taken away because of an irresponsible, law breaking minority.

"I don't know where you get your information but most of the shootings in the US happen in the inner cities when two gang members decide to shoot at each other."

No, most gun deaths occur in the home between family members or people who know each other well.

"You are just as likely to have your house broken into and get shot to death as a gun owner, only you won't have any recourse to protect yourself. "

No again because I live in places where people don't carry guns and yes the weather is damn good here unlike the crime ridden burg you seem to THINK you live in.

By all means carry on the way you are and the sane people out here will just laugh at you being so FREE.

I'd prefer a ban on people. We would eliminate gun violence, terrorism, domestic abuse, rape, white collar crime, jaywalking, animal cruely, poverty, and insider trading in one sweeping piece of legislation.

N5176Y

Way off topic here, but, welcome aboard N5176Y . . . strap in and hold on, A-Net can get a little turbulent   

Hmmm, the Yanks are for guns, and the rest of the world isnt.....hmmm interesting.

Quoting Newark777 (reply 12): So are knives. So are baseball bats. And crowbars. And rope. And household chemicals

damn those semi automatic baseball bats

Quoting Gkirk (reply 36): Hmmm, the Yanks are for guns, and the rest of the world isnt.....hmmm interesting.

well there's a shock isn't it, how impossible is it for a government to get the guns off the screat service when the president visits a country. that for one definitely should not be allowed. bad idea to have americans floating around with guns in our country's nevermind their own, just on a power hungry ego trip

[Edited 2005-03-05 11:21:54]

Quoting Gkirk (reply 36): Hmmm, the Yanks are for guns, and the rest of the world isnt.....hmmm interesting.

Not really, I´m a leftwing European, but pro gun ownership, and I know I´m not alone (most gun owners / collectors over here try to keep a low profile as not to catch the attention of the anti gun crowd, but there are hunters, target shooters, collectors and people who really need a gun for self defense, not just because of some imagined threat). In the case you mentioned I´d suggest to give it hard to the perpetrator, lock him into one of HMPs and throw the key away.
What rather worries me is the abundance of movies and video games, which make killing innocent people look cool. In almost all cases of people running amok or mass killings here in Germany, unless the person was seriously psychologically sick, were the killers conditioned by such movies and games.


Jan

Jan, you're pro gun?  
You make a good point about the movies and games though.

Can someone list 10 good reasons why Guns should be legal.
Handguns in the UK are illegal already, due to the Dunblane tragedy

Yes, Kirkie, I was always pro gun and never made a secret out of it. I support personal gun ownership out of political reasons.
In the past in Europe, ownership of weapons, evven swords and crossbows, was restricted to the ruling class, this means in most European countries the aristocracy. Weapon laws were introduced to keep the ordinary population down. Weapons were only handed to the population if they were either considered to be trustworthy, e.g. on the side of the ruling class, or were needed as cannon fodder to fight a war on behalf of the ruling class. As a Scot you should know about the Highland clearances after the defeat at Cullodden and how the Scots were banned of owning weapons and what happened afterwards.
The few European countries, which threw off aristocrat rule are actually those in which people own guns, like Switzerland. You rarely hear about gun crime from there even though almost every family has at least one assault rifle at home, it seems to be a matter of personal responsibility and culture.
Even though almost all European countries are democracies now, the old laws were kept. If ever a government would turn tyrannical, on who´s side will the military and the police be? The population or those who pay them and give them special privileges? Modern gun laws were in many cases introduced when the new ruling class, those with lots of money and control over the means of production, were afraid of a takeover by the lower classes. We still had a class society in Europe up to a few decades ago.
E.g. the fascist military coup in Spain in summer 1936 could have been defeated early, if the government wouldn´t have been afraid of it´s own population and handed out guns from the arsenals to the people (most of the army was supporting Franco, only the air force and navy supported the republic).
I think that guns in the population´s hands keep governments in check.
I see the right to carry a weapon a right of a citizen in any democratic country and not a privilege to be granted by a government for loyal behaviour , but if you abuse this right you should be smashed down.

Jan

I think we should listen to Chris Rock:

"We don't need no gun control! What we need, we need some bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. If every bullet costs 5000 dollars, there will be no more innocent bystanders!"

Sebastian 

Sebastian,

Forget about it, it won´t work. All you need for a muzzle loader flintlock is some lead, some black powder (guess what fire crackers are filled with) and a piece of cloth for the patch.
For an air rifle, all you need is a little lead.
Reloading real ammo isn´t that difficult either, it is not that difficult to make fulminate of mercury for the primers and to make cordite isn´t to hard as well.

Jan

To me the better idea is to try to limit the manufacturing and export of military style weapons. Many countries like Russia, China, N. Korea, make many thousands of AK-47 and other assult style weapons which are then sold to criminals, terrorists, rebel groups all over the world. Better yet, a worldwide ban on nuke bombs, WMD's, chemical weapons, but as we well know that isn't going very well.
There are many historical, political and pratical reasons for the policies and attitudes as to gun ownership in the USA and some horrible side effects as well. Yet in some places in the USA, like Washington, DC and NY City, their laws on the possession of handguns and concealed weapons are too strict. In many places in the world, a gun is unfortutaly an important symbol of 'manhood'. In most rural areas of the USA (as well as many places throughout the world), a gun is more likely to be used for ligitiment hunting or protection of persons and their property. Let us not forget other weapons too. In the USA right now, a company that makes the 'tazer' electronic 'guns' that incapacite a person wants to make a verision for sale to the public. What about other weapons in the future, like maybe lazer guns, or other possible tech based non-bullet weapons.
No, a worldwide gun ban never ever happen.

Quoting Gkirk (reply 36): Hmmm, the Yanks are for guns, and the rest of the world isnt.....hmmm interesting.

I think we should all chip in and make GKirk move to Kennesaw, Georgia where the head of the household of people living inside the city limits is required to own a gun:
http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/CodeOfOrdinances.aspx

Back from lala land . . .

We cannot un-invent the gun.
We cannot un-invent nukes.

It is people that are the problem.
Let's start working on improving them.

A local law enforcement officer told me that county-wide, they only have one or two crimes a year that DON'T involve drugs. All home invasions were to rob for drug money. Most of the shootings were drug people shooting drug people over drugs and drug money. (Someone called it thinning the herd - that is brilliant.)

How about drug control. How about enforcing the laws we already have.

PacificJourney, boy the insults and condescending attitude is flowing on this one. Are gettin' a little frustrated there, big guy? LMAO!!!

Maybe you should do yourself a favor and quit worrying about us. I know you'll say you don't care now, but you sure are putting a lot effort into this thread and it appears you're coming unglued.

Quoting Pacificjourney (reply 33): No, most gun deaths occur in the home between family members or people who know each other well.

Source?

Been pondering this issue a bit this morning and something occurred to me.

Those who have a strong opinion - what do you want to have happen?

Is it murder and accidental shootings that you want to stop?
Is it the guns themselves? Even locked away in a gun safe, is a gun stil offensive to you?

I'd like to know.

Quoting Gkirk (reply 39): Can someone list 10 good reasons why Guns should be legal.

I came up with seven in just a few minutes. They are in no particular order.

1. Self defense. Time for police to arrive > time it takes to kill you.
2. Hunting.
3. Target shooting.
4. "Expecting a carjacker or rapist or drug pusher to care that his possession or use of a gun is unlawful is like expecting a terrorist to care that his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces."
5. Other ways to kill people: knife, baseball bat, rope, your hands, your feet, golf club, ax, chain saw, power saw, drugs and thats just the start.
6. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
7. "A gun is a recreational tool like a golf club or a tennis racket. You can kill
someone with a golf club you know." (NRA official Martel Lovelace)

AAndrew