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SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Sebolino (reply 4):
The secret services NEVER communicate between one another in these situtation. The line is "don't trust anyone".
And it seems the Amercians were very fast to shoot ... Time will tell.


Well if that's the case the U.S. troops at the checkpoint did exactly what they were supposed to when a car speeds towards the checkpoint and refuses to stop. Good for them!!
 
ANCFlyer
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting QR332 (reply 32):
there would be no terrorist insurgents today if it wasn't for the US attack in the first place.


Probably true - Saddam would still be gassing Kurds, his two gangster children would be raping women in their palaces, people would still be tortured in the prisons for disagreeing with anything the regime said . . .

Get a grip - you're talking out your ass, old rhetoric. . . .
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Solarix (reply 8):
No. The only person who was "plain dumb" is the driver of the car for not stopping at the military checkpoint.

It's very unfortunate that this happened but what did they expect? Iraq is filled with scum blowing up cars and civilians. The security personnel thought this was another daily car bomb and took action to protect themselves. Better to be safe than sorry.


That's a lousy excuse. The fact of the matter is that Iraq, as Bush has told us repeatedly, no longer is a war-zone where civilians have to be very carefull when going from A to B. Despite the fact that terrorists are around and despite the fact that these terrorists do attack Coalition Forces, there is no longer a war going on and therefore, the so called Rules of Engagement can no longer be applied. In peace-time, it is the military which has to do its utmost to avoid innocent civilian casaulties rather then the civilians having to avoid pissing of the military for whatever reason.


Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 13):
This unfortunate incident is neither common nor acceptable - not at all.


Over the past two months alone, 9 people have died in similar incidents.
( http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/...play.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000827944 & http://www.iraqbodycount.net/)


Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 29):
Once again, Source please. Prove your statement. Seems to me, as reported by BBC, and other reliable news sources (NOT Fox, CNN, etc), the Iraqi terrorists/insurgency are doing a pretty damned good job of blowing up their own . . . . prove me wrong, or STFU.


To date, only two studies have been carried out into the total number of Iraqi civilian casualties: one performed by Iraqibodycount.net linked above and which is a private initiative and another one performed and published some months ago by the scientific British magazine "The Lancet". Differences between the total number of both studies are huge but so were the data-collection methods. The Lancet's figures tops the 100,000 victims. With no other serious study having been done, not even by the U.S. or British military, I'd say that's a pretty reliable figure. (For link, do a Google on +"The Lancet" +"Iraqi Casualties").


Quoting Solarix (reply 31):
Americans DON’T intentionally target civilians. The terrorist scum DO. It is very unfortunate that civilians are killed and I don’t enjoy seeing that.


Shooting at civilian cars without being absolutely sure the people inside are NOT terrorists might not fall into the catogory of intentionally targetting civilians, it certainly does fall into the category of putting into grave danger the lives of the civilians one is supposed to protect. What's next? Are we going to bomb entire iraqi cities just because terrorists might live there???


Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 52):
Probably true - Saddam would still be gassing Kurds, his two gangster children would be raping women in their palaces, people would still be tortured in the prisons for disagreeing with anything the regime said . . .


Freeing Iraq of Dictator Saddam was a good thing, but not in the context that Bush gave the World, and certainly not after 9/11 with Bin Laden still out there and Al Qaeda getting more support by the day! There were no terrorists in Iraq not because Saddam was there but because the US wasn't there.

BTW, did you know that one of 'your' Coalition Allies is a dictator such as Saddam who tortures people just because they disagree with anything his regime says? Where's your outcry? How come you're not urging Mr Bush to tell Mr Karimov to stop torturing his own people?
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:19 am

Oh boy, the Armchair Military Commanders are out in force..Okay, you're a US Army soldier who is attacked daily by carbombs, insurgents dressed as CIVILIANS, shot at from hospitals, schools, name it...A speeding car is coming straight at you, what the hell do you do? IT's easy for all of you to judge them. But hey, I'd rather be tried by a jury of 12 than have my casket carried out by 6. It's not your life on the line, so STFU already.

As far as trigger happy, the British Plane shot down was the result of the IFF transponder not working properly. I think one American aircraft was shot down as well. A third F-16 was illuminated by a Patriot and fired a HARM in response. It's being investigated by the Pentagon.

" also attacked by the US "by mistake". There was also the "accident" of the guy shooting the person who was unarmed and begging for his life in Fallujah."

Hmm, this guy was an INSURGENT...Shooting at US soldiers for most of the previous day. Sorry, US soldiers have died engaging what they thought were "Wounded and unarmed.."

No double standard in the Arab media? Are you on drugs? Why is it that the killing of Margaret Hassan was NOT shown on TV because it was "Too Upsetting" yet the same network gladly shows the beheading of Nicholas Berg!

Why doesn't anyone report about the 100's of BILLIONS of Dollars Americans are pouring into Iraq. To date, I don't think we've got jack s*** for it. Anyone see those elections in Iraq? How do you explain Iraqis dodging bullets and bombs to vote? Sounds like they want democracy to me!

As usual the rest of the world wants to villify everything the US does. I listen to this bulls*** at the LSE everyday here. They talk alot of smack for a wannabe Ivy League school.. America this...America that...What nonsense. I'm from an immigrant family and we sure as hell never blamed America for our mother country's problems. Accountability seems to be lacking big time on these boards. Get a life already and point the finger at yourself.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8283
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting Schoenorama (reply 53):
Shooting at civilian cars without being absolutely sure the people inside are NOT terrorists might not fall into the catogory of intentionally targetting civilians, it certainly does fall into the category of putting into grave danger the lives of the civilians one is supposed to protect. What's next? Are we going to bomb entire iraqi cities just because terrorists might live there???


There is a very big difference between the two scenarios. Attacking the speeding car is an act of defense, and you can't give the passengers the benefit of the doubt that they are not terrorists. The attack you suggest is not defense, but seeking out a target and being the initiator of the conflict. The US would be at fault in your situation, but not in the case of the checkpoint.

Harry
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:29 am

Actually , if I were a soldier at a road block in a country where car bombs driven by suicidical killers are the norm, I would also shoot first., if I saw a car approaching me at high speed. On the other hand I´ve heard from several British army sources, that a lot of American soldiers don´t take time to identify a target and tend to use the "spray and pray" method. The British army tends to train their soldiers more in using semi automatic aimed shots (a relict from the days of the bolt action rifle and later the SLR).

Concerning security at British bases, a Dutch friend went once to visit somebody at a British base in Germany with another friend. Outside the guard house of the barracks was a sign: "Stop here at this line. We will call you to drive ahead" They waited for a long time without anybody coming and his mate told him to drive on. My friend told him to look at the concrete bunker on the left, if he saw the soldier with the LAW aimed at them hiding there (it looked like a bicycle stand). They waited until an MP appeared, waved them forward and checked their ID and car.

Jan
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 54):
A speeding car is coming straight at you, what the hell do you do?


You seem to be unaware of the fact that cars always speed at roads. You are taking for granted that the persons in the car knew they were approaching a roadblock, something which isn't at all clear, not in this indicent nor in the preceding similar incidents (see previous post above).


Quoting Newark777 (reply 55):
Attacking the speeding car is an act of defense, and you can't give the passengers the benefit of the doubt that they are not terrorists.


Why not? Isn't that the reason why the US military is in Iraq in the first place, to protect the Iraqi people? Attacking a speeding civilian car in a civilian environment, without knowning if in fact a terrorist is driving it or whether the driver is just confused, is NOT an act of defense, but just plain stupidity!

I understand perfectly well what these soldiers must be going through when standing at their checkpoints and when patrolling the streets, but the fact that terrorist attacks have taken place doesn't justify shooting at every single vehicle which appears to be ignoring one's orders. Using battleground tactics against terrorists not only doesn't work, it also has completely counterproductive effects as one is putting in danger the lifes of the people one is supposed to protect.
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (reply 57):
Attacking a speeding civilian car in a civilian environment, without knowning if in fact a terrorist is driving it or whether the driver is just confused, is NOT an act of defense, but just plain stupidity!



So you are an expert? Where you there? Have you even set foot in Iraq?

Please, leave out the mindless speculation. And I do mean mindless. You don't know what you are talking about.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:35 pm

Schoenorama,

Can I remind you that back in the 1980s I´ve been searched at gun point by Spanish police officers in both Barcelona and the Basque country? I´ve been moving really carefully and slowly, because I could see that the police officers (Policia National and Guardia Civil) were scared. I also understand that Etarras tended to open fire without warning. Once the police officers saw that my bulging jacket pockets only contained a city map and a book, they became much friendlier. On the other hand, if I had made a suspicious move, I´m certain I would have got shot. The same happened to me at a road block in the Philippines, where I was riding a motor bike. The province Iloilo was back then (early 90s) a center of Maoist guerillas, and the Philippine National Police was really carefull, again with an officer aiming his loaded M-16 (safety off) at my stomach. (Later this day I became a witness of a shooting while in a bar. Everybody ran to the windows to see what happened in the street. I decided to move away from the windows, because i didn´t want to get hit by a stray bullet).

Jan
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (reply 57):
Attacking a speeding civilian car in a civilian environment, without knowning if in fact a terrorist is driving it or whether the driver is just confused, is NOT an act of defense, but just plain stupidity!


Look, did you READ the entire report? Did you WATCH anything on the news? Short answer: NO.

Let me sum this up for you in plain, non-vulcan english.

This happened in the middle of the night - the road was under curfew - there should have been no vehicles on the road - the vehicle moving at a high rate of speed - the vehicles ignored signal to stop - the vehicle ignored signs to stop - the vehicles were engaged first in the engine block to disable.

It's a tragedy that's for sure. But I have to wonder, would you be so damn quick to condemn the "Stupid" guards if you'd ever put your ass on the line doing anything remotely similar to what these soldiers do? Would you have be calling them "Stupid" if it had occured if Spanish forces were guarding the road?

For the record, given what I've seen and read, I've have fired up the convoy also.
 
martinairyyz
Posts: 1188
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:42 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:51 pm

Is it me or are the yanks just plain-dumb.

Ofcourse they're just plain, dumb, and more! They first went into Iraq, reelected bush, and if you go to USA, you'll be dumbfounded! (found surrounded by dumb people  Silly )
Quoting Schoenorama (reply 57):
Attacking a speeding civilian car in a civilian environment, without knowning if in fact a terrorist is driving it or whether the driver is just confused, is NOT an act of defense, but just plain stupidity!


I totally agree, stupidity is the factor that has been involved in this, and the U.S plan is totally to blame!!


P.S. Note how all the Iraqi stuff is USA v. Everyone else, just because they don't want to admit wrong-doing and keep on saying they're the best..... typical rednecks!
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
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RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:56 pm

MartinairYYZ I was going to respond to your rant but I looked at your profile and saw your age, 13-15.

Enough said.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (reply 61):
I totally agree, stupidity is the factor that has been involved in this, and the U.S plan is totally to blame!!


P.S. Note how all the Iraqi stuff is USA v. Everyone else, just because they don't want to admit wrong-doing and keep on saying they're the best..... typical rednecks!


Oh, goooood, more inane bullshit from the little Teenager in Bulgaria . . . . didn't have the freedom to say this kind of shit 10 years ago - but watch out now!

Babble, Babble, Babble . . . . .  talktothehand 
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:59 pm

He's in Canada, which makes it worse! Teenagers who don't know Jack about the world.

LOL
 
Newark777
Posts: 8283
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 64):
Teenagers who don't know Jack about the world


Hey, don't put me together with this fool. At least I try to make intelligent conversation.  Wink

Harry
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 64):
He's in Canada, which makes it worse! Teenagers who don't know Jack about the world.


Nice one. There goes your credibility too! Next?
 
solarix
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:56 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:30 pm

The poor boy must get picked on by Americans so he comes onto this forum and talks trash about them so he can feel manly.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:51 pm

Has anyone even bothered to listen to or read reports which quote the actual 'hostage'? She has stated in no uncertain terms that the car she was in was not speeding!

"Our vehicle was running at normal speed which could not be misunderstood," she said, rejecting US fears of a possible suicide attack. "It wasn't a checkpoint but a patrol which immediately opened fire after they trained their light on us," Sgrena said.

She would be the best placed person to tell what happened. Would she not?

Anyway, back to your incessant bitching.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:33 pm

Hell, I screwed the hell out of my international logistics/economics professor the other day.

He's from Canada and didn't figure anybody here would have heard of Caroline Parrish, so blew his mind when I named dropped.

Edit: I dont' know why the text I refering to...ref:American international ignorance didn't come through.

[Edited 2005-03-06 07:46:36]
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting Russophile (reply 67):
She would be the best placed person to tell what happened. Would she not?


Back seat, at night, probably not looking at the speedometer, probably talking to that escort that got killed.

No I don't think she was paying particular attention to what was going on.
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:38 pm

I thought that Iraq is no more a warzone. Mission Accomplished, remember? Also I don't recall any elections being run in warzones.

The US problem in Iraq is that they haven't decided yet if there is a war there or not. Curfew? WTF? I thought the war was over. They even have a government there. Go figure.

Oh, and as far as the "US side of the story", do you remember Jessica Lynch's story? Another example of how the military "twists" the facts slightly in order to show how good a job is doing.

Palestine Hotel anyone??

Conclusion: I was not there but nbone of us was there too. The fact is that a US patrol opened fire to a car (what car? civialian car? military car? any insignia on?) that apparently broke the curfew.

US Army is the commanding force there. They should have known better. It was a huge and grave mistake because I cannot believe that the driver "was speeding towards a checkpoint". If someone was plain dump at that particular moment, my guess would be that the dump was wearing a US uniform.
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:17 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
This happened in the middle of the night - the road was under curfew - there should have been no vehicles on the road - the vehicle moving at a high rate of speed - the vehicles ignored signal to stop - the vehicle ignored signs to stop - the vehicles were engaged first in the engine block to disable.


'hey thanks mr terrorist for letting me go, oh yeah would you mind if we stayed till the morning because the americans will shoot us if we try to drive to freedom just now'

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 61):
MartinairYYZ I was going to respond to your rant but I looked at your profile and saw your age, 13-15.

Enough said.


shame people dont get smarter with age in the U.S.. but i think it just shows that all age ranges can find america stupid


Quoting L-188 (reply 69):
Back seat, at night, probably not looking at the speedometer, probably talking to that escort that got killed.


you can judge speed better sitting in a car going along than you can a car coming towards you head on
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:01 pm

The most important question is indeed which version of the story is true. If the car was speeding and didn't stop at signs from the US-troops the action of the Soldiers was justified. Should they wait until an unidentified car which ignored all warnings reached there position?
But one the other hand I can't imagine experienced Italian secret service agents would be so dumb and don't stop at an US road block???
Maybe it wasn't easy to identify the road block as an US military check-point in the darkness? That would explain why they didn't stopped in the case the version odf the US-troops is true. I guess nobody stops voluntarily at the most dangerous street in Iraq after dusk?

pelican
 
curlyheadboy
Posts: 849
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:56 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:39 pm

Well, Mrs. Sgrena today says the US soldiers shot to kill her on purpose. This is bull***t of course, she's a communist dripping with anti-American feelings and sympathizing with the Iraqi insurgents believing they fight for their freedom. The paper she writes for is an extreme-leftish one, absolutely unreliable and terrorist-supporting.

This said, i believe it has been an accident, they were driving to the airport when they crossed a US armored vehicle on patrol, not a checkpoint. The soldiers were shitting their pants as every vehicle could be a suicide bomber and decided not to take a chance. This should make the US military seriously think about the state of mind their soldiers are in at this time. Their nerves are cracking and mine would crack as well if i were in their shoes, i mean, they see US military being killed every day... no surprise that every approaching car they encounter they ask themselves if their time has come...
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 51):
Probably true - Saddam would still be gassing Kurds, his two gangster children would be raping women in their palaces, people would still be tortured in the prisons for disagreeing with anything the regime said . . .

Get a grip - you're talking out your ass, old rhetoric. . . .


Touchy touchy - if America handled the entire situation properly, none of this shit would have ever happened. I am happy that Saddam is gone, but like I said before, were the tens of thousands of civilians killed worth it? Also, the USA screwed up bad because they made the Iraqi people hate them, not trust them. When Dubya and your country invaded Iraq to "liberate" them, they should have at least done it right. Now they have made a huge mess of it, and guess who's paid for it? The Iraqi people. But why would you give two shits? Your all comfortable at home in the USA, your not the one who is suffering like they are.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 53):
Hmm, this guy was an INSURGENT...Shooting at US soldiers for most of the previous day. Sorry, US soldiers have died engaging what they thought were "Wounded and unarmed.."


If you watch the video, you will see that the guy was clearly unarmed and was begginig for his life. If the same video had an insurgent and a US soldier things would be very different.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 53):
No double standard in the Arab media? Are you on drugs? Why is it that the killing of Margaret Hassan was NOT shown on TV because it was "Too Upsetting" yet the same network gladly shows the beheading of Nicholas Berg!


So whats your explenation behind that then, smartass? Them showing the beheadings of Berg and others made the terrorists look like crap in the first place, and some videos where pushing it; this was one of them. Or do you have some other conspiracy theory where the evil Arabs are getting at the US? And I never said there were no double standards, heres the post I replied to:
Quoting Solarix (reply 19):
The Arab World goes apeshit when a US marine puts womens panties over the head of a prisoner but they don't make a peep when an Arab slaughters US civilians with a machete.

Can you seriously tell me that was a fair comment?

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 53):
Why doesn't anyone report about the 100's of BILLIONS of Dollars Americans are pouring into Iraq. To date, I don't think we've got jack s*** for it. Anyone see those elections in Iraq? How do you explain Iraqis dodging bullets and bombs to vote? Sounds like they want democracy to me!


Because you wrecked the damn country and they want to try to rebuild it! They shouldn't have to dodge bullets and bombs, and they wouldn't if the US pulled it off properly. hundreds of billions because of the destruction YOU have caused - I think the problem would be if you didn't pay. And no sane person on Earth would want democracy delievered in the way that the good old Uncle Sam brought it in.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 53):
I'm from an immigrant family and we sure as hell never blamed America for our mother country's problems. Accountability seems to be lacking big time on these boards. Get a life already and point the finger at yourself


Who the hell blamed anything about their home country's problems on America in this thread. If your telling me that America is not accountable for Iraq's problem, then you are out of your mind.

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 57):
So you are an expert? Where you there? Have you even set foot in Iraq?

Please, leave out the mindless speculation. And I do mean mindless. You don't know what you are talking about.


Have you been to Iraq then, since you seem to be such a genius? And since your so sure he doesn't know what he is talking about, then prove him wrong. You Americans live up to your reputation around the world more and more every day.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:40 pm

I watched that video and it was said that the Marines were securing an area that they'd had taken enemy fire from. It was clear the guy was an insurgent.
I find it sad that the press cries over a dead insurgent but ignores beheadings.
Shall I share stories about how UNARMED and Injured Indian pilots were executed in Kargil? The sad thing was that he was shot down within his OWN border. You don't see Indians screaming bloody murder about it..I've seen videos of wounded Russian soldiers being executed in Chechnya by the same bunch of terrorists.. Sorry if War isn't so sterile for you.

Umm, I find it hypocritical of Al Jazzera that they claim the murder of Hassan was too upsetting to be put on TV, yet the beheadings of Americans especially Berg being a Jew (which were cheered btw) are just okay. It's pure BS and you know it. The terrorists took alot of criticism for killing her and I recall even Al Zarqawi denoucing it..Obviously Al Jazzera doesn't want to put their friends in a bad light now do they? It's even more interesting they plaster the Abu Grahib pictures all over and still don't address what foreign terrorists are doing in Iraq. Even Iraqis are wondering why the hell they are killing fellow Muslims. They're no better than Fox News.

First off no dumbass teenager is in a position to call me smartass. I've read enough of your posts to see you're so full of s***. Have YOU been to Iraq? Stop being an Armchair Quarterback and get your ass there if you think you know so much.

"Because you wrecked the damn country and they want to try to rebuild it! They shouldn't have to dodge bullets and bombs, and they wouldn't if the US pulled it off properly. hundreds of billions because of the destruction YOU have caused - I think the problem would be if you didn't pay. And no sane person on Earth would want democracy delievered in the way that the good old Uncle Sam brought it in."

Ummm, let's see who wrecked what. I think the majority of the damage was done by Saddam when he fought a dirty war with Iran and then invaded Kuwait. How about all the money he funneled away to build more palaces when his people are starving? Now where are the bullets and bombs coming from? Foreign insurgent fighters...The Iraqis decided that they want their own government and didn't elect a Pro US government either. They had free elections, so how are you going to defend the insurgents now?

Why should we pay anything? Since when does any country do anything on conscience these days? Has Europe paid reparations to its former colonies? I don't see India getting a fat check from the UK for all that was stolen from them? Okay we occupied the country, but at least we're willing to stand by and pay to rebuild the place.

"Who the hell blamed anything about their home country's problems on America in this thread. If your telling me that America is not accountable for Iraq's problem, then you are out of your mind."

It's true the Invasion of Iraq was completely screwed up. I'd give them that. You could say the US is responsible for the state of Iraq today, but that fate was cast way back in 1991. It's funny I see other European countries criticizing the US for supporting Saddam..Yet the French were doing the same thing all along...How hypocritcal..Let's not forget that Britain shared a role with the US in installing the Shah Of Iran..America isn't the only one with blood on their hands. Sorry no one is innocent here.

SV
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:52 pm

Very strange - and some people think it wasn't an accident, it was planned , same as a Palestinian Journalist who got killed while while he reported from an American tank that got shot.
Same as the "accident" when an Al Qaida office had been destroyed and a Spanish reporter got killed in Hotel Palestine
and all from American soldiers.

Anyway, lets wait what the Italian journalist will say when she is out of hospital. In today's newspaper (pro American by the way) they guess that they wanted to kill her cause of her informations she has concerning US behavour in Iraq.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8283
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:39 am

Sgrena, who was kidnapped outside a mosque in Baghdad on February 4, said her captors treated her well and took her to meet the Italian security agents after blindfolding her, telling her, "don't give any signals of your presence with us, otherwise the Americans could intervene."

She said she remembered something her captors had told her: "They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me, but I had to be careful -- 'the Americans don't want you to go back.'" At the time, she said, "I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths."

Sounds like she became awfully friendly with these captors. Maybe she would have been better off just staying with them.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html

Harry
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (reply 73):
Well, Mrs. Sgrena today says the US soldiers shot to kill her on purpose. This is bull***t of course, she's a communist dripping with anti-American feelings and sympathizing with the Iraqi insurgents believing they fight for their freedom. The paper she writes for is an extreme-leftish one, absolutely unreliable and terrorist-supporting.

Actually Mrs. Sgrena was also writing for the German weekly "Die Zeit" which is a well respected centrist to conservative newspaper.


Quoting Newark777 (reply 77):
Sounds like she became awfully friendly with these captors. Maybe she would have been better off just staying with them.

Have you ever heard of the Stockholm syndrome, that hostages who´ve beern held captive for a longer period often start to sympathise with their captors?

Jan
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Newark777 (reply 77):
Sounds like she became awfully friendly with these captors. Maybe she would have been better off just staying with them.


Newark, is this sort of justification what the US soldiers did?
Very interesting - so shoot her because she is critizising US politics?

Eih, they shoot at her car , they wanted to kill the people there. There was a report from (i guess you hate him) Michael Moore and what the soldiers did is an excellent confirmation of Moore's theory.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
I find it sad that the press cries over a dead insurgent but ignores beheadings.


Not a single beheading has been ignored by the Arab media. Again, how much Arab news do you watch?

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
The sad thing was that he was shot down within his OWN border. You don't see Indians screaming bloody murder about it..I've seen videos of wounded Russian soldiers being executed in Chechnya by the same bunch of terrorists.. Sorry if War isn't so sterile for you.


I never tried justify any other events, all of them are equally as horrific and they are all plain wrong. I am not trying to justify something and then turn around and say the same thing is wrong becasue the Americans did it, I am saying it is all wrong.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Umm, I find it hypocritical of Al Jazzera that they claim the murder of Hassan was too upsetting to be put on TV, yet the beheadings of Americans especially Berg being a Jew (which were cheered btw) are just okay.


Cheered by who? Just because a few Arabs cheered it becasue they are complete idiots then why should you generalise the same thing for the other 300 million people in the Arab world? And like I said, I am sure they have their reasons for choosing not to air that video. Since you call me an "armchair quarterback", isn't this double standards? You are also talking about something without knowing the full reasons for not playing the tape.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Obviously Al Jazzera doesn't want to put their friends in a bad light now do they?


Al Jazeera has never supported the terrorists, and if they did they would be shut down very quickly - don't forget they are in a country that is very anti-terrorist, and that is a strong ally of your country, Qatar. Just because the points of view they express are not consistent with those of your biased media does not make the station a terrorist supporting station, as you label it.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
It's even more interesting they plaster the Abu Grahib pictures all over and still don't address what foreign terrorists are doing in Iraq.


Hmm... how would you know that? Do you watch Al Jazeera? They report it all, and I watch the channel very frequently SV, so I should know. You are making unbased assumptions here.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Even Iraqis are wondering why the hell they are killing fellow Muslims.


Everybody in the Arab world is wondering that.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
irst off no dumbass teenager is in a position to call me smartass.


So since i'm not in a position to call you a smartass, what gives you the right to make sweeping generalisations of the Arab world and to make smartass comments like you did above? And you didn't exactly put your statement in the nicest tone, so don't be a goddamn hypocrite.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
I've read enough of your posts to see you're so full of s***. Have YOU been to Iraq? Stop being an Armchair Quarterback and get your ass there if you think you know so much.


If i'm so full of shit, then get involved in discussions with me and prove me wrong, don't just call names. And no, I have not been to Iraq, but who would know more, an Arab, or an American? I actually understand these people and I know how they think, not like you Americans who just sent your ass in their and made a complete mess of the situation. And I don't need to go to Iraq to discuss it, just like you and everybody else on this board doesn't have to.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Ummm, let's see who wrecked what. I think the majority of the damage was done by Saddam when he fought a dirty war with Iran and then invaded Kuwait.


Are you stupid or do you just act it? First of all, the dirty war was one supported by the great liberators across the Atlantic, so America is to blame for supporting him in that war. Secondly, you know damn well that is not what I am talking about - the country has gone into a state of anarchy, and look at what happened in places like Fallujah. The huge civilian death toll is also another thing.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
How about all the money he funneled away to build more palaces when his people are starving?


Why the hell are you going on about things I know, and things completley irrelevant to the point? My point was that you Americans completley wrecked Iraq and that you handled the entire situation wrongly, not that Saddam is a saint who was running Iraq excellently and with no problems.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Now where are the bullets and bombs coming from? Foreign insurgent fighters...


You know that the insurgents aren't solely foreign - there are many Iraqi fighters too.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
The Iraqis decided that they want their own government and didn't elect a Pro US government either. They had free elections, so how are you going to defend the insurgents now?


Show me a single post in this thread where I defended those scum. You are running away from the point - yes, we know there are democratic elections in Iraq, great, what does that have to do with anything I was saying?

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Why should we pay anything? Since when does any country do anything on conscience these days?


What do you mean why should you pay anything? You fucked Iraq over, and you took the country into your hands, and the moment you decided to "liberate" them, it became YOUR responsibility.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Has Europe paid reparations to its former colonies? I don't see India getting a fat check from the UK for all that was stolen from them? Okay we occupied the country, but at least we're willing to stand by and pay to rebuild the place.


Which is exactly what is supposed to happen. And "occupied" the country is an understatement - "ravaged" might be more fitting.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
You could say the US is responsible for the state of Iraq today, but that fate was cast way back in 1991.


Then the US should have gotten the job done in 1991, not when Dubya got into office and decided to finish the job his daddy never finished. They went in completley unjustified.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
funny I see other European countries criticizing the US for supporting Saddam..Yet the French were doing the same thing all along...How hypocritcal..


It is hypocritical, but France did not support Iraq as much as the US did. The US would give Saddam arial photographs of Iranian troop movements so he could gas them, and they supported Saddam A LOT, and I mean A LOT throught the 80s. Then, their little monster got out of hand, and this was the result.

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Let's not forget that Britain shared a role with the US in installing the Shah Of Iran..America isn't the only one with blood on their hands. Sorry no one is innocent here.


All very true, but I have to commend you, you did a good job of dodging my points. Considering i'm nothing more than a "dumbass teenager", you should be able to tear this post to shreads.  Wink
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Sv7887 (reply 75):
Obviously Al Jazzera doesn't want to put their friends in a bad light now do they?


QR332: Al Jazeera has never supported the terrorists, and if they did they would be shut down very quickly - don't forget they are in a country that is very anti-terrorist, and that is a strong ally of your country, Qatar. Just because the points of view they express are not consistent with those of your biased media does not make the station a terrorist supporting station, as you label it.


We see that the knowledge of US people in this forum concerning free press is rudimentary. Al Jazeera is reporting different to Fox, f.e. - but that's good. It's also good that Al Jazeera gets respected in most parts of the Western world. Maybe this is a reason why the US soldiers threw a bomb onto Al Jazeera office and killed journalists.
Maybe, SV, you like to hear that but it's murder, same murder as they did with the people in the Italian car.

We have free press and Al Jazeera belogs to it - it's more free than some US companies - believe it or not. Truth can be hard.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8283
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 78):
Have you ever heard of the Stockholm syndrome, that hostages who´ve beern held captive for a longer period often start to sympathise with their captors?


Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 79):
Newark, is this sort of justification what the US soldiers did?
Very interesting - so shoot her because she is critizising US politics?


No, but I feel the Stockholm syndrome MD11 speaks of may be playing a part in the whole fiasco. Think about it, you are with your captors for a long while, and become attached to them. Then, you are released, and are friends with the man eventually shot in the car, and all the sudden the big bad US took them away from you. She sounds like a bitter, grieving woman, who writes for an extremely anti-US paper and has it out to get them, and sees this as a good opportunity. Just my theory.

Harry
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 57):
So you are an expert? Where you there? Have you even set foot in Iraq?


Are you an expert? Where you there? Have you ever set a foot in Iraq?

Are you aware of the fact that this isn't the first incident in which people are killed just because soldiers believed they were terrorists? Such a behaviour might be perfectly justified in a war-zone, Iraq no longer is a war-zone, as your Commander in Chief has told us repeatedly. Iraq in general, and all the roads in particular, how dangerous they might be, are civilian areas now. Patrolling tactics and checkpoint procedures should be applied accordingly. The latter should not be changed dramatically just because 1 out of every 1,000 Iraqis could be a terrorist. That might not sound very 'fair' to the military on the ground, but when has the job of a soldier ever been fair?

Quoting Commander_rabb (reply 57):
Please, leave out the mindless speculation. And I do mean mindless.


What point of my post is mindless speculation? I'm sticking to the same facts we all know and I am even taking for granted that the car was speeding, something which in fact isn't at all clear at this time. Shooting at a car driving towards you while you don't know whether terrorists or civilians are onboard is what is really mindless.



Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 58):
Can I remind you that back in the 1980s I´ve been searched at gun point by Spanish police officers in both Barcelona and the Basque country? I´ve been moving really carefully and slowly, because I could see that the police officers (Policia National and Guardia Civil) were scared.


That fact that you are alive today and able to reply in this thread proofs that the Spanish police, regardless of the fear for their own lives, adopted a somewhat different tactic when approaching someone who could have been a terrorist.


Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
Look, did you READ the entire report? Did you WATCH anything on the news? Short answer: NO.


Contrary to what you seem to do, I don't take Pentagon Press reports on this, nor any other issue, for granted. (How come the Pentagon, everytime something negative happens, says Multinational Forces were involved but talks about U.S. troops when something positive happens?)

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
This happened in the middle of the night


This happened at 8:55pm. That's nog 'in the middle of the night' to me. And you're accusing me of not reading the entire report?

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
the road was under curfew - there should have been no vehicles on the road


Source please. Nowhere, in all the reports and articles I've seen and read, does it say that that particular road was under curfew. Absolutely nowhere. What's more, not even the press release issued on this incident by the Multi-National Force in Iraq says anything about a curfew. And you're accusing me of not reading the entire report?

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
the vehicle moving at a high rate of speed - the vehicles ignored signal to stop - the vehicle ignored signs to stop


Even when ignoring the Italians' statements that their car was not speeding, and taking for granted that they were approaching a roadblock (something equally uncertain), how does one expect to notice hand- and armsignals to stop the car in pitch-darkness, in a moving vehicle on a particularly dangerous road?

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
the vehicles were engaged first in the engine block to disable.


That the soldiers pointed at the engine-block, as their instructions probably indicate, doesn't mean that there was less risk for the unknown occupants due to the typical nature of such a situation: an approaching car in pitch-darkness in movement with the passengers right behind the engine-block. Even a trained marksman in a favourable position would have some difficulties with that.

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
But I have to wonder, would you be so damn quick to condemn the "Stupid" guards if you'd ever put your ass on the line doing anything remotely similar to what these soldiers do?


I am not blaming the soldiers, you ignorant! I am blaming the tactics being adopted!

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 59):
Would you have be calling them "Stupid" if it had occured if Spanish forces were guarding the road?


Again, smartass, I wasn't calling the soldiers stupid. If you'd read my previous post more carefully, specially the last paragraph, you'd understood that. It's the tactics adopted, and given out by higherhand, which I called stupid. And please don't forget this isn't the first incident where civilians get shot at and unfortunately killed just because a driver got too close to a U.S. convoy or simply misunderstood what the soldiers wanted him to do.


Quoting L-188 (reply 69):
Back seat, at night, probably not looking at the speedometer, probably talking to that escort that got killed.



That's two probablies in just one sentence. And you expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to take your opinion on this issue serious?
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:22 am

Just found an interesting article on yahoo

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...50306/wl_nm/iraq_italy_shooting_dc

ROME (Reuters) - Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena, shot and wounded after being freed in Iraq (news - web sites), said Sunday U.S. forces may have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposed Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers

Horus
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:23 am

Aljazeera is actually one of the very few news stations that is free of government censorship and control here in the Middle East - they have basically 100% allowance to say whatever they want, in a jounrnalistic sense. Also, the company I believe just launched its english channel, although I have not had the chance to see it.
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting QR332 (reply 85):
Aljazeera is actually one of the very few news stations that is free of government censorship and control here in the Middle East - they have basically 100% allowance to say whatever they want, in a jounrnalistic sense


QR, when I was in Qatar in 2004 our tour guide said that the US admin contacted toe Qatari government and asked them to inform Al Jazeera to be careful what they write (sort of censorship).
But response from Qatari government was, that in Qatar they have freedom of free speech.
I guess the US admin would have had better luck f.e. in Egypt - they still try to have influence in media , also outside of the US. Fortunatelly there are countries who deny their "request".

Seeing dead US soldiers on TV? That's information and should be shown (not all but parts of it), ok, the US admin hates it because people in own country start to ask and publicity of that (illegal) war would get worse. Why does the US admin doesn't allow journalists making pictures from soldiers coming back in coffins?
The US media has (almost) no chance, fortunatelly we get infos from AJ.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Schoenorama (reply 83):
That fact that you are alive today and able to reply in this thread proofs that the Spanish police, regardless of the fear for their own lives, adopted a somewhat different tactic when approaching someone who could have been a terrorist.


Schoenorama,

I also made shure that I didn´t do anything which could have bee considered to be threat or provocation. For example, I held my jacket open with the thumb and index finger of my left hand, all other fingers spread, and pulled out my city map and the book SLOWLY from my inside pocket with the thumb and index finger of my right hand, again having all other fingers spread open, so that it couldn´t be mistaken for grabbing a gun in a shoulder holster. I did everything in clear view of the police officers, so that they could see that I didn´t mean any harm to them. After they saw the content of my pockets and checked my passport, they relaxed and actually became quite friendly, one of them tried to speak German to me, having worked in Germany for a while.
In the Philippines too I moved very slowly as not to give the police officer any reason to pull the trigger. I stopped when the indicated, got off the motor bike, lifted my arms above my head and let myself be searched.

Jan
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 81):
Al Jazeera has never supported the terrorists, and if they did they would be shut down very quickly - don't forget they are in a country that is very anti-terrorist, and that is a strong ally of your country, Qatar. Just because the points of view they express are not consistent with those of your biased media does not make the station a terrorist supporting station, as you label it.


That might have some merit, except that the people who would know whats happening more than anybody, the Iraqis, were the one who kicked AlJazeera out of the country. For me, this tells the true story.

As for the reporter saying she was targeted, if they really wanted her dead, after curfew, dark, deserted road, she would be dead. End of story.

I don't believe we've heard the whole story yet and I believe it will fall somewhere in the middle. Given time, cracks will appear in the reporters version. Unfortunatly, conspiracy theorists will have a heyday.
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:59 am

Jan, they didn't have the chance to do anything SLOWLY, they got attacked.
And the position from US military that the car drove very fast is denied from the Italians.
You don't know what's true. Fact is that the army there already practiced that fast and unchecked shooting before:
they shot a Spanish journalist in Palestine hotel (he filmed their behavour)
they bombed an Al Jazeera office (because AJ is reporting critical)
they shot a BBC reporter who was on air , reporting about a bombed US tank

It's easier to shoot in hate - but they are unprofessional then, everybody can argue that they are in danger all the time. But that's their job they selected. They are a shame for a civilized country when they shoot onto everything.

Remember the pictures when they shot onto a 4 yrs old girl and didn't want to help her because they could get in danger? Journalists helped the girl to survive and then the soldiers wanted to take the cameras away. Omg, how heroic.

I don't believe what I see on CNN or N-TV. Always good to check other media too.
 
N5176Y
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 89):
And the position from US military that the car drove very fast is denied from the Italians.


What do you expect? Every Italian I know is a lead-foot and denies it.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:07 am

Numbertwelve,

I already posted that I heard from friends connected to the British Army, that the British Army doesn´t hold the majority of American troops to be good in identifying targets. As I mentioned before, for them many American soldiers prefer a "spray and pray" method of hosing down something suspicious with automatic fire than identifying the target and using aimed semi automatic fire. This also correspondends with the relatively high number of British and other allied soldiers killed by American "friendly fire". There seems to be an attitude of shoot first and ask later, which for me points to bad training.

Jan
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting N5176Y (reply 90):
What do you expect? Every Italian I know is a lead-foot and denies it.


Ooooh, great argument: Italians always drive fast and so it's ok to kill them?

MD11 - did You also see the friendly fire movies on German TV? They were very sarcastic : first making jokes like " oooops, we killed some bandids " and then the news "stop shooting, stop shooting, they belong to us!"

Hopefully Berlusconi gets under pressure now.


Quoting JetService (reply 24):
American soldiers are in Iraq to fight for democracy


JetService, so to fight for democracy means to shoot onto critical Italian journalists? Great democracy!
And fighting for democracy with torturing people in Abu Ghreib and Guantanamo?
Sorry, but democracy for me means : Freedom, free speach, accepting other people and other opinions. But not torturing. It's a shame that these things (torturing, killing) will be done under the name of "fighting for democracy".
Because it's everything but democracy. Lets see what the Iraqi government will do, who will govern, and if they are not that Pro-American as Bush expects, what will Bush do to "teach them"?

More bombs?
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Mham001 (reply 88):
That might have some merit, except that the people who would know whats happening more than anybody, the Iraqis, were the one who kicked AlJazeera out of the country. For me, this tells the true story.


Do you even know which Iraqis kicked them out? Baghdad Bob, aka Mohammed "we won the war because we shot down a plane" Al Sahaf. He kicked them out because they wouldnt listen to him and only report what he wanted them to report, and becasue they showed the truth behind the war. Plus, it never happened, they cut a deal with the Ministry of Information. But, if you want to aide the decision of Saddam's regime, please, feel free.

[Edited 2005-03-06 18:37:53]
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:43 am

I have driven is Israel past several military checkpoints. You must STOP. That is Israel, a safe place to drive (yes it is, despite what ppl think not all of Israel is like the area near Palestine). This was Iraq. I'm sorry, but the driver should have known better. BTW, I'm against the war, but our troops have a right to be safe out there.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting QR332 (reply 93):
Do you even know which Iraqis kicked them out? Baghdad Bob, aka Mohammed "we won the war because we shot down a plane" Al Sahaf. He kicked them out because they wouldnt listen to him and only report what he wanted them to report, and becasue they showed the truth behind the war. Plus, it never happened, they cut a deal with the Ministry of Information. But, if you want to aide the decision of Saddam's regime, please, feel free.


Say what? You do know that they have been shut down at least twice by the Iraqis since then(may still be, I don't know) Or isn't Al Jazeera telling you that? Clearly, you are not getting, or prefer to ignore, all the news. Do your own research and you will learn a few things.

The reason is that the iraqis felt they were a propaganda piece for the insurgents and they were only pushing the negatives inside iraq.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8283
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 92):
JetService, so to fight for democracy means to shoot onto critical Italian journalists? Great democracy!


ROFL, "critical Italian journalists"! Give me a break, and stop glossing over the facts by making it seem as though they knew it was her and shot on purpose. It doesn't matter how fast they were going, as Flyboy36y said, they DID NOT STOP. Any semi-intelligent person in Iraq knows about the car bombings and how strict the checkpoints are because of this. She says they were ambushed, and I don't care or trust her, so I will be waiting for official reports to be released to make any more conclusions.

Harry
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:51 am

If the reporter is claiming she was ambushed, they will soon be finding the big holes in her story. If they wanted her dead, she would be dead. Without a trace. Easily done, who would know who did what on the most dangerous road in Iraq, at night, during curfew? Just another IED and who would know? Has anybody asked her who assisted her after she was wounded?
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6341
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Newark777 (reply 96):
I will be waiting for official reports to be released to make any more conclusions.


As if Pentagon, with its track record of lies, is any guarantee of finding what really happened...  boggled 
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: The Ironic Events Of Iraq Yesterday

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 87):
I also made shure that I didn´t do anything which could have been considered to be threat or provocation


Good, although I question whether the Spanish police at that time would have had the authority to empty their guns into your body in case you did anything they believed to be suspicious. And this brings us back to this thread; it's all a matter of trying to put yourself into the position of the other. You apparently were aware of this and were able to put yourself into the position of the police-men. This made you aware of that fact that anything you did could be interpreted wrongly by the police.

Unfortunately, as appears to have happened in this incident and as already has happened in numerous similar incidents, the people in the car being shot at were not aware they were being summoned to either slow down or stop, and it wouldn't supprise me at all if they weren't even aware of the presence of the military before the shooting began. Given the circunstances of this particular incident (it was dark), giving an approaching car hand- and armsignals to make it slow down doesn't sound very appropiate to me. Now I don't have any problem with this way of trying to slow down or stop a car as long as the next step isn't putting 300+ rounds of bullets into it. It this second measure which simply is too much. How about putting some 'old fashioned' concrete roadblocks on the road to physically make a car slown down?

Earlier incidents of this nature in which iraqi civilians have died simply because they misunderstood what the US soldiers were trying to tell them (they drove on when the soldiers told them in English to stop or they stopped when they were told to continue), should be enough indication that the tactic of directly shooting suspicious vehicles when they appear to be ignoring handsignals, is completely inappropiate as one only needs one tiny misunderstanding from either part involved to turn the whole scene into a slaugtherhouse.

Had the Spanish police have had similar authorization from their superiors, you could have been killed right there and then. Fortunately, that never happened.

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