Hi, I was just wondering which of these tragedies do you consider more important? Of course both are of immense size.
9/11 changed the world for the worse I believe. Although it helped expose severe cracks in security in the world, it has led to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Although I believe both wars were justified (Afghan war more so), what have they led to? Muslim Terrorists hating the West, a large proportion of the world hating the US for the Iraq war.
Pearl Harbor however, changed the face of the world as we know it. It led to the Americans joining WW2 and eventually the demise of Hitler and his Nazis. It also led to the use of Nuclear Bombs in an angry manner for the first time (I think).

Although many of us wont have been around when Pearl Harbor occurred 9with the exception of MD11Engineer and JGPH1A ) we were all around during 9/11.

Which of these tragedies do you consider more important/significant in relation to the history of our planet?
Please keep it civil

[Edited 2005-03-14 11:47:56]

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter): Please keep it civil

Dude, I thought you knew how NonAv worked !!!

Cheers,

707

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter): Although many of us wont have been around when Pearl Harbor occurred 9with the exception of MD11Engineer and JGPH1A )

Horrid boy ! I'm young and beautiful.

They're both important, for different reasons. Both were attacks against the US, but one was a military strike against a military target, with the other was a terrorist strike against a civilian target. Both caught the US by surprise despite mounting evidence of a specific threat and both resulted in a huge initial scare reaction in the US populace in general (blackouts on the US West Coast and Japanese internment camps for Pearl Harbour, vs. the Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay for 9/11). Both had lasting effects on the rest of the world (US entry into WW2 - better late than never, and the War on Tourism in the case of 9/11), but in both cases it brought the US into a struggle the rest of the world had been fighting for some time (   )

The truth is that we don't know how important Sept 11th will prove to be. It's still too recent for the full ramifications of the event to become known. It could be a pivotal moment in world history, or it may not be. We just don't know. Come back and ask again in fifty years time.  

A question for the Americans, which of these two tragedies do you fell more patiotic for? We all know the pride the Americans took after 9/11 (pride being the way that the Americans came together afterwards and vowed to beat the terrorists), but being only 21, was it the same after Pearl harbor?

Quoting Banco (Reply 3): Come back and ask again in fifty years time. Wink

Yes, but the likes of you, JGPH1A etc will probably be dead in 50 years time  

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5): Yes, but the likes of you, JGPH1A etc will probably be dead in 50 years time

You've still got to make it to the end of the week, you cheeky bugger.  

Both are incredibly significant.

I wasn't born until sometime after Pearl Harbor (195X), but the events that occured in terms of the US approach to International Relations and Politics during the late 1940s and throughout the 1950s, significantly shaped the posture of the US in which I grew up. It eliminated the isolationist attitude the US maintained for so long - sometimes I question the intelligence of that move. It began the trek towards a global economy. It significantly accelerated technological advancements that would have occured eventually, but were enhanced by their needs of the time (jet aircraft as an example). And yes, it introduced the world to nuclear weapons and their affects (lets hope we never have that issue again).

As far as my adult life, 9/11 was a shock, there's no doubt. But what I'm sure about is it was less a shock to me than to a lot of NIMBY* Americans. Having lived in Europe in the late 70s, early 80s, and witnessed the likes of the Baider-Manhauf (sp) Gang, the Red Army Faction in Germany, I knew what terrorism was and what it could entail. I was used to the Cold War since I never knew anything but the Cold War as a child and young adult. This was to be a new kind of war - one the US was not prepared to fight IMHO, lacking experience and proper doctrine.

*NIMBY (Not in May Back Yard)

When 9/11 occured, as with all Americans I was angered and outraged. But a few folks I know made the comment that they simply couldn't believe we could have such an occurence in the US - even beyond the Oklahoma City fiasco! I didn't mean to laugh right at them, but my comments were something like "Welcome to the Real World" and "it's about time you got a does of reality".

So Kirkie, I think, for me, 9/11 was more significant all things considered. It changed the face of many, many things that had not changed significantly since after WW2.

Interesting thread . . . . thanks.

I only thought about it because I am watching Pearl Harbor just now

[Edited 2005-03-14 12:07:27]

Quoting Banco (Reply 6): You've still got to make it to the end of the week, you cheeky bugger.

I think its time I got out the old Fatwa quill and parchment again !

Quoting Banco (Reply 3): The truth is that we don't know how important Sept 11th will prove to be. It's still too recent for the full ramifications of the event to become known. It could be a pivotal moment in world history, or it may not be.

Banco, old buddy, I wholly disagree. While we certainly don't know the full, future ramifications of 9/11, I can assure you it has already been a pivotal moment in world history. Look at all that has changed since 9/11 - most particularly in the US.

I could make a long list, but it's not necessary.

When fifty years time passed and kids in school are reading their American History, they will spend much time reflecting on the events of 9/11 and the aftermath. Looking back at my times in school, when asked about the significant events of the early 20th century, WW1, WW2, Civil Rights all come to mind.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10): Banco, old buddy, I wholly disagree. While we certainly don't know the full, future ramifications of 9/11, I can assure you it has already been a pivotal moment in world history. Look at all that has changed since 9/11 - most particularly in the US.

You're allowed to disagree - as long as you don't make a habit of it...  

I take your point, my thinking was that we don't know how permanent those changes might be. It is barely possible that militant Islam will fade away and the actual impact long term is not as great as it might seem right now. Or that could be completely wrong, and that's really my point, we don't know.

It could be hugely important in the opposite direction. There are a few small indicators that genuine change is going through the middle east, and maybe, maybe, it becomes hugely important as the single reason for the growth and spread of democracy in a previously war-torn region. Well, let's hope anyway.

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter): Although many of us wont have been around when Pearl Harbor occurred 9with the exception of MD11Engineer and JGPH1A Wink )

Kirkie, you mean like this?  

Back in May 1945 in the freshly liberated Netherlands  

Concerning the topic, I´ll fully have to second ANCFlyer

Jan

Quoting Banco (Reply 11): You're allowed to disagree - as long as you don't make a habit of it...

  

Quoting Banco (Reply 11): we don't know how permanent those changes might be. It is barely possible that militant Islam will fade away and the actual impact long term is not as great as it might seem right now. Or that could be completely wrong, and that's really my point, we don't know. It could be hugely important in the opposite direction. There are a few small indicators that genuine change is going through the middle east, and maybe, maybe, it becomes hugely important as the single reason for the growth and spread of democracy in a previously war-torn region. Well, let's hope anyway.

Absolutely - things are still, and shall remain for many years I'm afraid - very fluid.

Most remarkable to me is the changes in the middle east. While I have no crystal ball, and I don't necessarily subscribe to Dubya's "Spread (force) Democracy throughout the World" theories, I would like to see that be the end result. Thus far, things appear to be moving slowing that direction. Lebanon's ousting of the Syrian overseers being the latest thrust.

I would hazard the opinion that this period of time might be more significant than the fall of the Soviet Union and Soviet communism.

We'll have to see - look back on this in ten years - if we haven't blown each other up by then.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13): Lebanon's ousting of the Syrian overseers being the latest thrust.

That's a bit simplistic - Syria is withdrawing from Lebanon in response to UN resolutions and in accordance with the Taif Agreement, admittedly hastened by the fall of the Lebanese goverment (who's leader is now back as Prime Minister, so does it count as a fall at all ?). I would hesitate before adding this situation to the "win" column in the "Bush Doctrine" scoresheet.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14): I would hesitate before adding this situation to the "win" column in the "Bush Doctrine" scoresheet.

I can see where you mistook my words as giving credit to Bush for this event - perhaps I should have started a new paragraph here. I give complete credit to the Lebanese and their desires to rule themselves without Syrian intervention. I don't think the Bush Administration had any of this on their radar screen in that I believe the events were predicated by the death of Mr. Hariri, not anything Dubya has done.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13): We'll have to see - look back on this in ten years - if we haven't blown each other up by then.

Blimey. when I said you were allowed to disagree, I didn't think you might take it that personally...    

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter): ), what have they led to? Muslim Terrorists hating the West, a large proportion of the world hating the US for the Iraq war. Pearl Harbor however, changed the face of the world as we know it. It led to the Americans joining WW2 and eventually the demise of Hitler and his Nazis. It also led to the use of Nuclear Bombs in an angry manner for the first time (I think).

Islamic terrorists already hated us. Evidenced by not only the attacks but the recorded reactions around the world.

Pearl Harbor actually had a similar number of casualties and forced a fundamental change in our policies due to reality being inflicted upon us.

Thus far the 911 attacks and our policy of pursuing terrorists and their sponsors as well as pre-emptive diplomatic and military (if necessary) action against those who can and probably would attack us has led to the liberation and developing democratization of Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as the complete policy change in Libya as regards WMD's and their willingness to negotiate with their neighbors. Syria has been more willing to accede to the need to withdraw from Lebanon (instead of cracking down and unleashing their surrogates in a violent manner as they might have prior to these events with much less fear of reprisals) and Iran is in a position where it has much less support to continue developing its nuclear program than if it still had the same geopolitical situation as before.

We are now in a world war, whether people like it or not....and just like in WWII there were many who lined up to do their part who had vociferously protested the action prior to the fighting.

Who cares if Muslin terrorists hate us?

Three years out from Pearl Harbor the Japanese and Germans hated us too.

I agree with the sentement already stated, the ramifications of September 11th are only just begining. The Ramifications of Pearl Harbor are a matter of history and easily researched. The two can not be compared at this time.

Even putting aside the historical aspects of it, it is still hard to compare the two on a personal level. Pearl Harbor happened a long time ago, and I can only begin to grasp it's magnitude through history books and movies. I never lived anytime near WWII or it's aftermath, and wasn't born until the 80's. 9/11, however, struck me on a more personal level. When you personally know many people who were killed, and have friends who lost parents, it makes it that much more important to you.

I will never forget the feeling of sitting in school for the four periods after they announced the WTC had been attacked, and just not knowing what had happened to my dad, who worked across the street. I found out during lunch that he was okay, although many kids in my school did not get that same good news. We saw kids being led out of school crying, and we knew very clearly what was going on, and it was a real wake up call to the real world.

It is these personal connections to the tragedy that really make it and Pearl Harbor hard to compare. Maybe in ten or so years I can look back and reflect on it, but today the wounds are still fresh, and it is hard to think about the big picture when you see human consequences on a very personal level.

Harry

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter): Hi, I was just wondering which of these tragedies do you consider more important?

Pearl Harbor

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, it could be argued that US entry into WWII was inevitable, based on Japan's expansion ambitions, and whether or not Pearl Harbor happened, it was just a question of when, not it.

Given that, Pearl Harbor could be seen as merely the trigger, and not in itself especially important. Discuss:  

Banco - I'd agree, there was a significant thread on your very question a few weeks back . . .

I'm not going to search for it - don't feel like it - but I believe the concensus was it was inevitable, the US would have gone into WW2 eventually, but Pearl Harbor just accelerated the action.

In my opinion, the two incidents have very different circumstances. From what I understand, the attack on Pearl Harbour was largely unprovoked.

The terrorist attacks on 9/11 were really (again in my opinion) the result of years of tragically flawed foreign policy and American interference.

The US has interfered in the region for decades, not only helping create the politcal direction of the region, but actually helped to arm and finance the very entities that turned against them.

Following the 9/11 attacks, I felt it was time for the Bush administration to take a breath and try to understand how the US got to this point in history, where Americans now had to fear attacks on US soil.

Instead....Bush chose to misdirect his anger at a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. Namely Iraq. He even raised Afghanistan to up-end the Taliban because they harboured terrorists instead of taking aim at Saudi Arabia who was the real enemy. But the almightly dollar prevailed and Bush refused (and still refuses) to acknowledge the Saudi role. Why? Because Saudi Arabia pretty much owns Bush's ass....

The result? Rampant paranoia and fear. Great recipe for re-election.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 19):

It is these people that I truly feel for, whereas people who were sent into dpression over 9/11 without any personal connection whatsoever I just cannot understand.

I think history will prove Pearl Harbor to be the greater event, but then again who knows what will happen from here on in. WWII is (at this point) a much greater conflict, and much more important, than the war on terrorism will ever be. World War II countered an aggressive, genophobic, and totalitarian force bent on world domination. Now we are fighting a war that seems to me impossible and futile to win, terror will always exist or combat all totalitarian regimes without becoming one ourselves. Pearl Harbor was a clear, surprise, military attack, started the US' entry into an ongoing war to counter an obvious threat with a clear end plan. In the end, I believe Pearl Harbor will wind up being viewed as more important for its lasting effects.

9/11 was tragic, but what happened should not debilitate us or force us to live our lives in fear. Life goes on. Terrorism will happen, and 9/11s will happen again. We have to defend ourselves, but also live with that risk. We can't start a war every time a terrorist attack happens, even though it's a damn good excuse.

Pearl Harbor. I don't think we ever saw that coming. The manner by which that single event united the country, was absolutely phenomenal.

9/11, as horrific as it was, was not a surprise. Granted, who would have ever thought that terrorist would utilize commercial aircraft to wreck havoc and cause destruction; however, the US had long been bombarded with small "attacks". (1) the Federal building in Oklahoma City, and (2) the World Trade Center (may it RIP), was bombed once before. Not to mention, the USS Cole in Yemen.

I think we had the intelligence, we just could not have forseen such an attack....
The whole hijacking the planes gives me chills everytime I think about it....

I only wish we, as a government, had done more to guard ourselves against such an attack.

May victims of both attacks rest in peace........

I would say both are events of a generation or of a significant part of a given century. To my parents whom were teenagers when Pearl Harbor was bombed, it completly changed their lives. All men knew that they were going to war or support it at home if too old our otherwise unable. The attack woke up America and caused a reaction that would never happen again. Many people realized that war was going to happen anyway, and we had already been supporting our allies in Europe and Asia. But Pearl Harbor was considered a sneaky, evil, seriously damaging act by an organized government and military. Was their overreaction? Yes, in some ways, especially as to the destruction and interrment of Japanese-Americans.
To those born after Pearl Harbor, the events of 9/11/01 also completley changed our lives, but quite differently than Pearl Harbor did. Like the run up to Pearl Harbor, there had been an ongoing war by the enemy, including the 1993 WTC attacks, the many attacks throughout the world by Islamic based terrorirst. Like Pearl harbor, the 9/11 attacks were sneaky, evil and seroiusly damaging, but were carried out by a politically and religiously motovated group, not a uniformed, regular military force. Did we overreact? Yes, with almost every Islamic person in the USA under suspision and the passage of the Patroit Act, with portions of great conteversy. Like WWII, we are fighting a multi-front war, but unlike WWII, not against a nation or it's military. Our leadership has made contervirsial decisions, most particulary as to Iraq. We don't see a lot of men in the USA running to join the military unlike WWII. We were told to keep going about our daily lives, so not to 'give in' to the terrorists.
In conclusion, I would say they are almost equal in terms of changing our lives, but in very different ways.