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ConcordeBoy
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What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:12 am

Question's pretty self-explanatory: whatcha think about Papa Cubano?




And I don't want this thread to be some politically correct NeoConservo-fest! Those of you who like/admire/support the guy (and I know you're out there) speak up and be heard! Just as well, those of you who'd gut him like a fish and drink his blood, state your peace here!

...any of you Cuban (particularly 1st or 2nd generation)? Would love your input as well. What do you and your family plan to do once Castro kicks?



Also, what about you non-Cuban types who've been there 9both legally and perhaps otherwise)? What say you all?
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Tom in NO
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:17 am

Not that I'm against our fair state doing business with Cuba, but WTH is our illustrious governor doing sharing crab bisque, or lobster, or whatever it was, with Castro  crazy !

Tom at MSY
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:19 am

I like Castro only by default.
I was really impressed with the way he has held his country together despite the long odds and obsticles his government has to deal with.
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TACAA320
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:27 am

The same thing I feel about any dictator. That he is a c#@p.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
dl021
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:32 am

Fidel Castro started out as a revolutionary intent on correcting the wrongs in his society which were plentiful.

He went into the mountains a student/teacher and left a guerrilla who took power. His lieutenants, especially his brother, Guevara and a few others followed/led him down the path to tyranny and torture as they solidified their hold on the island.

The prison on the Isle of Pines, where they kept political prisoners, was an abomination (anyone who thinks Camp X-Ray is inhumane should check that place out) and Guevara took to using Fidels beloved baseball bats to beat people to death with, until he went to the Congo and failed miserably thanks to the USSF and the CIA then was disowned by Castro who was justifiably paranoid. Castro took to regular sweepings of his subordinates afterwards, in the effort to stay ahead of assassination attempts.

Fidel became a dictator with his own secret police and embarked upon marxist spreading wars in Africa and Central America until his resources were cut off from his sponsor in Moscow. His efforts included the fiascos in Angola, where his men were pretty soundly defeated, and Nicaragua...where he attempted to set up a client state of his own. He is trying again in Venezuela and that is nerve wracking all by itself.

Castro is one of the last totalitarian dictators in the Western Hemisphere and needs to have his feeding tube disconnected. He is responsible for more misery and pain than anyone else in the West and should be castigated at every opportunity by freedom loving people everywhere. Cuba Libre will not occur until he dies. I personally hope it happens soon.
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:39 am

DIO21:
Whare did you cut & paste that article from?
Talk about revisionits history.
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SFOMEX
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:45 am

A smart man who has slaved his own people for more than 50 years.
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:47 am

SFOMEX:Who are you talking about. It can't be Castro.
He's been in power for 45 years.  Smile
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 1):
but WTH is our illustrious governor doing sharing crab bisque, or lobster, or whatever it was, with Castro

To be honest, I think she backed herself into that corner... and everyone saw it coming.

Her posse claimed that they would have nothing to do with him during their time on the island... but like hell he was gonna miss the chance for a photo-op with a major USA executive politico.

What exactly can you do if you're in Cuba and Fidel decides to crash your party unannounced/uninvited... protest?  indifferent 
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dl021
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:53 am

DIO21:
Whare did you cut & paste that article from?
Talk about revisionits history.
from Superfly

Right off the top of my head. What part of this is revisionist?

Its all true. Cuba was oppressed and not headed for any significant freedom under Batista. Castro was a student and a teacher, his top lieutenants included his brother Raul and Dr. Guevara (the butcher), and he graduated from student to guerrilla to leader to tyrant...all through the means of violence, intimidation and torture. There is a prison on the Isle of Pines (spanish name is in Spanish   ) and he does have a secret police.

He did send Guevara to the Congo where he was soundly beaten by US led indigenous forces, and forced to flee for his life through Rwanda. He did deny Guevara the right to reenter Cuba as he feared CHe was looking to unseat him from power...sending him to the place where all semi-mythical criminals looking to escape their fates go to die inglorious deaths and lie in anonymous graves...Bolivia.

He does have a secret police service, as well as other internal security apparatuses(i?).

He did supply MI-24 Hind helos plus a battalion's worth of T-72 tanks to Nicaragua (for the USSR, but he was going to get to be viceroy) as well as sending Secret Police to help the Ortega brothers (he must have felt a special kinship there) work to implement a marxist state there. He is currently working to insinuate himself into Venezuelas system as General Chavez is proving himself more than a populist with his increasingly socialist/marxist tactics and policies.

Now, my very good friend (I mean that too, FLy) what part of that sounds revisionist to you?

[Edited 2005-03-29 23:54:52]
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:03 am

DIO21:
The part whare you say;
"spreading wars in Africa and Central America until his resources were cut off from his sponsor in Moscow"

"He is trying again in Venezuela and that is nerve wracking all by itself."




Our government spreads wars too and the efforts in Angola and Central America were peoples movements to over throw more oppressive govenments.
You also want to include that the USSR collapsed by it's own weight thus couldn't be a major trading/bartering partner with Cuba anymore.

Ortega was a good man and so is Hugo Chavez. Don't worry, I am sure Dubya & Co. has a secret plan for the oil rich nation of Venezuela and there elected leader Chavez.
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EA CO AS
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:05 am

Talk about revisionits history.

So you're saying he's all sunshine and daffodils, then?
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SFOMEX
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
He's been in power for 45 years.

I was thinking in the years of preparation in Mexico before the Granma expedition and the guerilla years at Sierra Maestra.  Smile

Nah, you're right. It's been only 45 years although for the Cuban people has been like centuries.
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MaverickM11
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:10 am

"So you're saying he's all sunshine and daffodils, then? "

Yep. Castro along with Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe are Superfly's idols.
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:11 am

Our government does business and support dictators much worse than Castro.
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dl021
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Our government spreads wars too and the efforts in Angola and Central America were peoples movements to over throw more oppressive govenments.
You also want to include that the USSR collapsed by it's own weight thus couldn't be a major trading/bartering partner with Cuba anymore.

Ortega was a good man and so is Hugo Chavez. Don't worry, I am sure Dubya & Co. has a secret plan for the oil rich nation of Venezuela and there elected leader Chavez.

So...you aren't saying it was revisionist....just that you think that we did it too? but Mommy, Susie did it TOO!!! COme on, dude, back up your revisionist claim.

And Danny Ortega was forced to allow elections in his country after he was beaten in combat during an ill-advised foray (anyone else present for Spring Break '88? Golden Pheasant) into Honduras after which we told him we considered the gloves off if he did anything else. That effort caused him much unrest at home and he was in no position to crack down after we told him we would take an interest in any such efforts in that respect as well. The democracy people managed to force an election which was won by Chammorro in spite of intimidation and threats, partly because of the efforts of the Carter center people who went in to monitor the elections.

Chavez (whom I was prepared to give every benefit of doubt as he is a paratrooper  Wink ) is the elected leader, now lets see if the electoral process remains unmolested there. The last one was pretty controversial and even some of President Carter's people reported irregularities when they did not want to for political reasons. I know this because I know several people who do work for the Carter center on these junkets. So Chavez, who has invited a good bit of Cuban participation in his affairs is bringing a totalitarian figure into his orbit of advisors and confidantes....anyone else get nervous about this? How about some of our Venezuelan posters? I know of one who is not happy with el Presidente Bush, but sure doesn't like Chavez.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Our government does business and support dictators much worse than Castro.

...the list including ___?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
yukimizake
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:44 am

The fact that he has maintained power for so long with his arch-enemy (with the strongest military in the world) only 90 miles away is quite an achievement. This will always endear him to people with anti-American views, but there's little to admire in this oppressive dictator.
 
Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:45 am

ConcordeBoy:
...the list including ___?



Sinse you have some down time and a break from selling steak knives door to door, read up on some our governments 'freedom loving' allies.


ASIA:
CHIANG KAI-SHEK
PARK CHUNG HEE
MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ


CARIBBEAN:
FULGENCIO BATISTA
RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO
FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER

SOUTH AMERICA:
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO
COLONEL HUGO BANZER
GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA
ALFREDO STROESSNER
GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET



Europe & the Middle East:
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI
GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO
ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS
TURGUT OZAL




ASIA-PACIFIC:
FERDINAND MARCOS
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH
GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA
GENERAL SUHARTO



CENTRAL AMERICA:
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR.
GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA
VINICIO CEREZO
ALFREDO CRISTIANI



AFRICA:
HALIE SELASSIE
IAN SMITH
P. W. BOTHA
GENERAL SAMUEL DOE
MOBUTU SESE SEKO
HUSSAN II
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:49 am

I'll admit to having never heard of nearly half the people on that list... but one question, how do you figure Chiang in with the rest of those?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Russophile
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 16):
..the list including ___?

* Niyazov of Turkmenistan
* Musharraf of Pakistan
* Fahd of Saudi Arabia
* Mubarak of Egypt
* Saakashvili of Georgia
* Jabir of Kuwait
* Mohammed of Morocco
* Voronin of Moldova
* Karimov of Uzbekistan
* Qaboos of Oman

etc, etc, etc
 
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alberchico
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:33 pm

Castro has put an insignificant Carribean country at the center of the world stage. Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis. While I hate him I admire his political skills that kept him alive all these years. Not even Hussein could evade the wrath of the U.S. but here comes along a little island right next to florida that has been a thorn in the heart of the U.S. for 40 years and nothing is done about it.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
jaysit
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:50 pm

If it weren't for the Miami Cubans and their noisy hold on Congress, this old tired Communist would be either fighting for his political life in elections, or living in St. Tropez in exile.

He has only them to thank.
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atmx2000
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
I like Castro only by default.

If I'm not mistaken, you are black. You are aware that Cuban society under Castro is in reality racist and Cuban's of African descent experience a lot of intolerance and discrimination.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Ortega was a good man

I suppose that was why he and his party were voted out of office.

Quoting Russophile (Reply 20):
Saakashvili of Georgia

OK, I think you've been drinking the Russian Kool-Aid. Through a popular revolution, he replaced the Russian supported former Soviet foreign minister Shervardnaze, who continued to hold power for an extended period of time since Georgian independence through corruption and fraud.
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jasepl
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:35 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
If I'm not mistaken, you are black.

What does that have to do with anything? He's just admiring something about Castro. Doesn't mean he supports the man's every endeavour.
 
ltbewr
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:35 pm

The 'good' Castro has done for his people including broadly available basic health care, education and literacy levels among the best in the region, opportunity for the poor for a University education, it has been at a terrible cost. That cost included political repression, economic control, murder or long term violent jailing of opposition, commiting his people to foreign wars and to death, repression of free speech (he has arrested and imprisioned a number of libarians and others with unauthorized books in the last few years). The economic embargos by the USA and Cuba's alliance with the USSR until their end, has led to a downward spiral of infastructure and quality of life in Cuba.
Yes, to many the attitude of the USA is wierd, but understand that the USA controlled Cuba from about 1898 to 1925 (as a spoil of the Spanish-American War) and economically controlling it until Castro came to power. Due to our politically and economic occupation of Cuba from 1898 to 1959, along with crooks like Batista, led to a lot of hate toward the USA (not unlike that of some Iraqi's today) and support of Castro. Then as Castro came to power, our death hate of any form of 'godless' Communism (yes, religion involving with the US government and politics is nothing new, just the goals change) only 90 miles from Florida, caused us to never accept Castro. His allowing the placement of our arch-enemy USSR's nuke missles in 1962 was beyond acceptable to us, as a direct threat to us. Yes, so long as not a Commie, even if acted like Hitler to their people we supported some of the worst national leaders in the world (and still do with some countries).
I can't wait for the day he is dead and maybe Cuba can evolve into a free country - including freedom from the USA.
 
SlamClick
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 25):
I can't wait for the day he is dead and maybe Cuba can evolve into a free country - including freedom from the USA.

Do you imagine that his high ranking police and military, who have done the actual jailing, shooting, torture, and so on are going to permit a smooth transition into something resembling south Florida? If democracy breaks out there will be a clamor to punish these people and they know it.

Upon the death of Castro there will be insurgency if not civil war, something akin to the factions trying to prevent the democritization of Iraq today -and by the same sort of people.
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Russophile
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
OK, I think you've been drinking the Russian Kool-Aid. Through a popular revolution, he replaced the Russian supported former Soviet foreign minister Shervardnaze, who continued to hold power for an extended period of time since Georgian independence through corruption and fraud.

It was not a popular revolution, but rather an American engineered revolution -- US government and George Soros. Saakashvili 'won' over 96% of the vote in the resulting election in 2004. Upon assuming power he immediately replaced the Georgian flag with the flag of his own political party (without referendum) -- he has closed down dozens of media outlets -- corruption is even more rife under him. The salaries of the parliament, police, etc are paid not by the Georgian people (thru taxes and the like) but are directly paid by Soros. Saakashvili's own (American-born) wife directly compares him to such legendary Georgian 'greats' as Stalin, Beria (the 'father' of the gulags) and Gamsakhurdia (the first dictator of Georgia in the early 90s).

He is a dictator in the making, and he is American supported. So he does belong on my list.

BTW, Shervardnaze was hardly Russian-supported. He fell out of favour with the Russians in the mid-1990s (in a big way) over issues such as Chechnya, Abkhazia, Adjara and South Ossetia. It was actually the US which supported Shervardnaze until they actively overthrew him.
 
Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
If I'm not mistaken, you are black. You are aware that Cuban society under Castro is in reality racist and Cuban's of African descent experience a lot of intolerance and discrimination.

Oh my, and that never happens here in the U.S.,  Yeah sure
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mia
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:04 pm

I dont know who is telling people information here but the official government position when it comes to race in cuba is that race is not a differential of people. Now, Cubans are racist, not the government.
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luisde8cd
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:17 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
He is currently working to insinuate himself into Venezuelas system as General Chavez is proving himself more than a populist with his increasingly socialist/marxist tactics and policie

Chavez is a former Lt. Colonel, not general. He was kicked out of the Venezuelan army as a Lt. Col in 1992 after his failed coup d' etat.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Chavez (whom I was prepared to give every benefit of doubt as he is a paratrooper Wink ) is the elected leader, now lets see if the electoral process remains unmolested there. The last one was pretty controversial and even some of President Carter's people reported irregularities when they did not want to for political reasons. I know this because I know several people who do work for the Carter center on these junkets

Correct. Right now the electoral council is controlled by pro-govertment officials. 4 out of it's 5 directors (decision takers) are Chavez symphatizers. That's like having Jeb Bush, Condolezza Rice, Dick Cheney and Bush Dad running the elections in the US... sounds fair, doesn't it?

ELECTED president, my ass!

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
.anyone else get nervous about this?

Me.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
How about some of our Venezuelan posters? I know of one who is not happy with el Presidente Bush, but sure doesn't like Chavez.

That would be me also!
 
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alberchico
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:39 pm

I think the interesting question is whether the U.S. will intervene in Cuba once Castro dies. If Castro dies while Bush is still in office things will certainly get interesting.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
sccutler
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:52 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 31):
If Castro dies while Bush is still in office things will certainly get interesting.

When Castro, dies, regardless of who (or what party) is in power, the US will intervene, and will do so aggressively.

If you believe otherwise, you are naive beyond measure.

===

Castro is a brilliant strategist who, having betrayed the very people who swept him into power, has masterfully manipulated decades of American policy ineptness (again, at the clueless hands of a succession of presidents of both parties) into continued power.
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MaverickM11
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:11 pm

"Correct. Right now the electoral council is controlled by pro-govertment officials. 4 out of it's 5 directors (decision takers) are Chavez symphatizers. That's like having Jeb Bush, Condolezza Rice, Dick Cheney and Bush Dad running the elections in the US... sounds fair, doesn't it?"

Just the way Superfly likes it!
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BN747
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:31 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
I'll admit to having never heard of nearly half the people on that list... but one question, how do you figure Chiang in with the rest of those?

Because China is what it is today because China departed from the philosphy of Sun Yat-sen. And took US aid (financially and militarily) like it was an endless welfare check. His certainty that the US was with him all the way (where do you think Marcos got the idea from) he did nothing to whip his troops into line when they be came the corrupt greedy rotten bastards they became, leaving their troops to have no respect for leadship, no discipline and allowed themselves to get mightily kicked in the ass by a ragtag barefooted army led by Mao. ... with overwhelming support from the average Chinese because Chiang failed miserable to establish any type of relationship... drunk with power and completely out of touch of the reality of the times and his own command. It's the same elixir that blinded Castro to common sense.

BN747
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jasepl
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:33 pm

Superfly and Russophile... You forgot Saddam Husein in your list!

 Smile
 
jaysit
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:40 pm

Please, Cuba under Batista was a 1000 times more racist than it is today. Castro at least changed Cuba's laws to raise the living standards of Cuban blacks and give them opportunities they seldom had before. He may have screwed up everyone elses living standards, but you can't condemn CAstro for racism.
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:23 pm

As I stated in my very first post of this thread; "I like Castro only by default."
Do you all get it?

Had the United States kept it's momentum from the 1910s up till the 1970s and the ideals of the 1960s were put in to law, I would have a much less favorable view of Fidel Castro.
If we had continued the fight for social & economic justice here in the U.S., then I would be less sympathetic of Castro.
What scares me more than Castro is the fact that bastards like Dubya & Co. think they have carte blanc with the entire world with the ability to rape and pillage the world of it's natural resources and take advantage of cheap labor from any nation with token leaders that are willing to give in to our powerful business interest.

If Castro allowed Nike, The Gap and just about any other major company that depends on cheap labor to move in and take advantage of cheap labor, suddenly we wouldn't he of any of the ills of Castro's government.
Fidel Castro has angered the very people I despise so by default, I admire the man. However I acknowledge that his government has faults too. Then again, what government doesn’t?


Can someone explain why I can get a non-stop flight from my hometown airport (SFO) to Vietnam and China but not Cuba?
We've lost a hell of a lot more service men & women in Vietnam and China is a much bigger threat than Cuba if they chose to pick a bone with us.


And for those who are in pity of those Cuban-American mobsters in South Florida; I had a great time partying out and dancing in Night clubs that were once your Grandpa's mansions!  Smile
HA HA, You people will NEVER get it back so continue crying to the GOP leadership here in the U.S.!  Silly



Viva la revolucion!  Cool
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Superfly
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:29 pm

DIO21:
Sorry if I seemed to bash you in my earlier post. It just sounded to canned and foxnewsesque.
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pelican
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting Russophile (Reply 27):
It was not a popular revolution, but rather an American engineered revolution --

You have forgotten Yushenko on your list.  sarcastic 


pelican
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:44 pm

Survivor.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Our government spreads wars too and the efforts in Angola and Central America were peoples movements to over throw more oppressive govenments.

Very true, Superfly. Western governments in democracies sometimes are not better than dictators.
The dictators "only" torture own people, governments in democracies torture people from other countries and behave like racists.
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dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:27 am

I was afraid you'd do this. You seem to blithely forget that we had to consider everything within the constraints of the Cold War and needed to take a stand. When we did not take stands and help out leaders they typically turned to the USSR....see Uncle Ho and your very good buddy Fidelito...both of whom sought help from the US prior to turning elsewhere.

Let me address each one of these clownshoes and see what the deal really was....were we supporting a dictator because it amused us or were we dealing in the geopolitics of the times?

ASIA:
CHIANG KAI-SHEK He was the leader of China during the war thus a legacy ally, and we dealt with him rather than the Communist dictator.

PARK CHUNG HEE HE was a damn sight better than the alternative...

MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ He let us use his border for intel gathering against the evil empire and he kept the crazies in his country under control until they killed him in that C-130 bombing


CARIBBEAN:
FULGENCIO BATISTA SA Czech Airlines">OK...no excuse there....

RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO See below with Papa and Baby Doc...we just did not have the time to do anything other than make sure Hispaniola was not going communist. I wish we had.

FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER...we did not really support these assholes as much as we just ignored them since we had other fish frying in the region and did not want to rock any boats unnecessarily....we did help them get out, but the French did their part as well and for good reason.

SOUTH AMERICA:
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO...Yeah...he was the head of the Army before he got our help to overthrow the then president, but he brought stability prior to allowing democratization and helped Brasil grow. Nothing is perfect, but he was no mass murderer. If you'll look it up you'll see he actually talked up democracy.....but kind of in a Turkish way...as long as everything is going well and stability is good.

COLONEL HUGO BANZER SAy what you want...this guy brought democracy to Bolivia and is the biggest hero since Bolivar in terms of bringing freedom to the people. He overthrew some serious scumbags and was later elected President in a free and fair elections. I'm not saying he is the best President they had, he had his issues economically, but the guy moved the country into the age of democracy and kept out the communists, who set up serious rebellions in neighboring nations.

GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA...Ok this guy ran the Dirty War and then made himself Generalissimo, and there is not too much redeeming about him. Once again, it was a matter of the devil we knew and could exert some control over rather than one we could not and would spread the infection.

ALFREDO STROESSNER He was not too bad as dictators go. I don't think he is responsible for any mass murders and he allowed the liberalisation of politics in his country to the point the military overthrew him and that actually opened up the democratization. He was helped into Brasil.

GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET...We will always disagree about the impact that Allende would have had, but you have to admit that he was leaning seriously toward marxist socialism and we were concerned he would allow the Soviets access to SA.



Europe & the Middle East:
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI...Tell me the better answer for that country at the time? I think he was a scumbag, but would the alternative been any better? He turned out to be a serious ostrich in the end.

GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO...We did not put this guy into power and exerted some serious diplomatic influence over his regime while securing their assistance in NATO, all the while working to help democratize his nation. I also think that the relative stability they had allowed Juan Carlos to do the right thing and defend democracy when the colonels stormed parliament a couple years later. He was a brutal and repressive dictator (Juan Antonio Samaranch formerly of the IOC worked for him..someone explain that to me) who was not the best choice, but he had to be worked with in order to properly defend NATO.

ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR...Yeah, he was a dictator, and had his own issues, but he was not particularly murderous or evil. He was just in charge. Once again we needed to work with him to properly safeguard Europe

GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS.. I'm not a fan...but would you rather Greece have gone communist? He was a Nazi during the war, as were many anti-communists in occupied territory, not that I excuse their actions. I wish we had not found it necessary to deal with him.

TURGUT OZAL....How is he a dictator? He was elected and served his party and his nation.




ASIA-PACIFIC:
FERDINAND MARCOS Scumbag...but was a legacy of WWII. We supported democracy in the Philippinnes as soon as it came around. Anyway we left them to their own devices in 1946.

SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH Is he the guy from Oman or Brunei? Either way its all about the oil, and if it wasn't our friend doing the ruling it would be someone elses.

GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA We did not help this guy overthrow the government there. They have their own internal issues thanks to the British bringing in Indians as plantation labor and setting up that island for trouble later. note...I served with a guy who came to the US Army after being a colonel in the Fiji army until '87 or whenever the revolt happened.

GENERAL SUHARTO...Once again...not proud that we had to work with this guy, but the choice was made clear by Vietnam. We could not afford to see a communist nation controlling the straights of mallacca (sic?).

CENTRAL AMERICA:
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR. Scumbags from the Fruit Wars and an example of what I do not really like about our mid century geopolitics.

GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT Who?
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA Who?
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA Hey, here's another example of us dealing with someone I really wish we had not needed. When Trujillo
VINICIO CEREZO
ALFREDO CRISTIANI



AFRICA:
HALIE SELASSIE...Another WWII legacy who we supported as an ally, remember that he was the legitimate Emperor of his country and did not really lose it until the end of the 60's.

IAN SMITH...I'm not a supporter of apartheid, nor of any two tier class system enforced by the government, but Rhodesia was a nice place before it went to Hell. They cannot even feed themselves now. THey need to accept their white citizens as natives instead of stealing their land. They have been there longer than we've been in most of the US, and we ain't giving back our property to the CHerokees or Creeks.

P. W. BOTHA Yeah.....RSA had the whole apartheid thing working, did we not embargo their asses? How did we work with him after the 60's?

GENERAL SAMUEL DOE...Him and flight LT Jerry Rawlings. They both seemed to have promise until they started executing everyone who opened their mouths against them. What are you gonna do, though? We did not put this clown in power....and everyone gets all pissy when we remove evil dictators.

MOBUTU SESE SEKO He got crazier as time went on and ended up being no better than Idi Amin Dada. But he was definitely better than Lumumba or any other communist puppet. He was the only man the Force Publique would follow and he calmed the country down during the 60's

HUSSAN II Which is he? Please remind me.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 38):
DIO21:
Sorry if I seemed to bash you in my earlier post. It just sounded to canned and foxnewsesque.

Fly...no sweat. We can yell at each other sometimes...and that wasn't even yelling. I was in a hurry when I wrote and I was probably a little short with you so I'm sorry about that. Go listen to some Bird and buy yourself a beer, it's on me.  Smile
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:37 am

DIO21:
P. W. BOTHA?
Our government under the dumb actor Ronnis and his cunt of an ally Thatcher in the UK reluctantly went along with sanctions against South Africa. On top of that, our government had no problem with those disgusting Afrikkkaners coming over here once South Africa became truley democratic.

I'll get back to you on those other leaders later.
Bring back the Concorde
 
avek00
Posts: 3261
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:40 am

"If I'm not mistaken, you are black. You are aware that Cuban society under Castro is in reality racist and Cuban's of African descent experience a lot of intolerance and discrimination."

For all of his numerous sins, Castro ended the legalized segregation imposed by the pre-revolutionary elites, many of whom now reside in the USA and support right-wing political figures.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:51 am

DIO21:
Thanks for the beer and the Bird.  Cool
I know your a very smart guy and your leftist tendancies are evident. I just need to work harder to sway you to the left. Big grin




Avek00:
Atmx2000 tried to use the race card to sway me against Castro but it didn't work. I must say my personal experience with the Cubans in Cuba was very good. Never did I feel like an outsider and the people were very warm, genuine and nice. A small hand full of Americans visit Cuba (an estimated 200,000 a year) but very few Black Americans take the risk. Conditions for Blacks in Cuba was much worse under Flunkie Bautista.
Bring back the Concorde
 
swatpamike
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:01 am

Hello all

He's a nice guy but I won't let him in the house with his cigar.

Also he could use a queer eye for the straight guy makeover.

Cheers

swatpamike
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
your leftist tendancies are evident

 rotfl  Rotsa Ruck there Shaggy!!!  Smile

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
DIO21:
P. W. BOTHA?
Our government under the dumb actor Ronnis and his cunt of an ally Thatcher in the UK reluctantly went along with sanctions against South Africa. On top of that, our government had no problem with those disgusting Afrikkkaners coming over here once South Africa became truley democratic.

OK...for starters please don't use the D word when describing Ronnie! He was very smart, all you have to do is read his letters. AS far as the other thing you sir are on your own there....Maggie Thatcher is a very smart and tough woman who did much good for the UK.

So what you are saying is that we DID enact the sanctions and we DID help end apartheid.....OK....where's the problem?

Once they became democratic to all, there was no reason to not let any South Africans from coming here to the land of opportunity...

.......After all we let Robert Byrd into the Senate.  Wink
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Can someone explain why I can get a non-stop flight from my hometown airport (SFO) to Vietnam and China but not Cuba?

Good question...
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
rootsair
Posts: 4013
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 am

RE: What Do You Think Of Fidel Castro?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:40 pm

You should stop comparing EL LIDER MAXIMO to other dictators in their countries.

Fidel has certainly deprived people of their freedom of speech.....that's a how far I criticise him. But look at his country...it has something which even the US lacks.... free health care. And all those people who think communism is that evil.... weel at least it guarantess free health and education. The health system is so good that Cubans have, if not mistaken amongst the highest life expectancies of the Americas.

Now people will tell me "Look in what s**t the country is " and I reply them

"Well look at what s**t embargo they have" yeah that's one of the reasons Cuba is bad.
If Fidel hadn't come, I don't wanna imagine what Batista would have had the country become like..... Haiti ?
Thanks to the lider maximo, Cuba isn't the Island size brothel and casino it used to be..

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots

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