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dtwclipper
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Gay Couple Sue Governor

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:30 pm

Well, we knew it was going to happen, that these amendments passed in November would head to the courts. Michigan will be the test case now for the rest of the country!


Gay Couples File Suit After Michigan Denies Benefits
By RICK LYMAN

Published: April 4, 2005


DETROIT, April 2 - Kathleen Moltz, a pediatric endocrinologist at Children's Hospital of Michigan, said she and her partner, Dahlia Schwartz, talked it over for quite some time before deciding to sue the governor.

"We're not conflict seekers," Ms. Schwartz said. "We just want to live our lives quietly."

But at stake, they said, are the health benefits that Ms. Schwartz, as Dr. Moltz's domestic partner, receives from Wayne State University, which operates the hospital.

"It is not a small issue to us," said Ms. Schwartz. "I have a thyroid condition. And a main reason we moved to Michigan was so I would be able to stay at home with the children."

In November, Michigan voters, along with those in 12 other states, approved legislation to define marriage as an institution between a man and a woman. On March 16, Michigan's attorney general, Mike Cox, took that one step further, ruling that passage of the constitutional amendment meant that gay and lesbian state workers should be ineligible for health benefits for their partners in future contracts.

"A lot hinges on what happens in the case in Michigan," said Jeremy Bishop, program director for National Pride at Work, the A.F.L.-C.I.O.'s constituency group for gay workers. "If the courts rule unfavorably for us, then I can well imagine the right wing taking the same argument to all 13 states that passed these amendments last year."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/04/national/04gays.html?pagewanted=1
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CanadianNorth
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:36 pm

I thought the U.S. was supposed to be a free country. Doesn't sound that way for the gay people. Atleast some countries around here can get their heads out of their arses and move forward instead of backwards.



CanadianNorth
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:43 pm

These woman are very brave.. Good luck to them
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MaverickM11
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:27 am

"I thought the U.S. was supposed to be a free country."

It is, and unfortunately the majority is using that freedom to vote against gay rights. The government is not deciding to block equal rights for gays, the voters are.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
It is, and unfortunately the majority is using that freedom to vote against gay rights. The government is not deciding to block equal rights for gays, the voters are.

Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 1):
Doesn't sound that way for the gay people. Atleast some countries around here can get their heads out of their arses and move forward instead of backwards

That's called socialism, much closer to communism than a free society. No one is saying that these two people can't be together, just that you can't have something for nothing. The gay marriage situation is something that is still in debate and a majority of America, doesn't support it, liberals and conservatives.
Made from jets!
 
dvk
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:35 am

The government is definitely blocking equal rights for gays. Congress could take action on this issue, just as they chose to pass a law for Terri Schiavo which a large majority of voters didn't support. Their action in the Schiavo case was a blatant attempt to subvert the authority of the judicial branch, but passing legislation to ensure equal rights for gays would do no such thing.

To equate equal rights and justice with socialism is a non sequitur. Our democratic republic means we have a representative government, but it doesn't mean majority rules on every issue. If it did, only property-owning white men would be able to vote, and women and all minorities would be excluded.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 5):
To equate equal rights and justice with socialism is a non sequitur

Yes, for someone who is physically/mentally challenged. For someone who quality education was denied because one wasn't available to them. But the fact of the matter is, that the defense of marraige act was signed in 1996, buy President Clinton to protect the institution of marraige. Is being gay a barrier? They don't seem to think so when the hold Gay Pride Day. If benefits are given to same-sex couple, then what next? Will straight people who claim that they are unable to commit to marriage start demanding equal rights?
Made from jets!
 
dl021
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I thought the U.S. was supposed to be a free country."

It is, and unfortunately the majority is using that freedom to vote against gay rights. The government is not deciding to block equal rights for gays, the voters are.

This is a free country and what is happening here is that a special interest group is demanding that they be accorded benefits that private industry does not want to give them. If they really want to get these benefits they should take the private road and make a mass issue out of it where the companies are forced to take a public stand on the issue. What is happening here is an attempted hijacking of government to force private industry into submission.

If a subset of our society wants recognition then they should follow the civil disobedience path against policies they don't like. Forcing it through the court system is no better than the efforts on both sides of the Schiavo issue.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
dvk
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:22 am

Straight people can get legally married, so they don't have a problem. DOMA is a piece of garbage that was passed for the sole intent of discriminating against gay people, and just because Clinton signed it (as he did don't ask don't tell) doesn't mean it's a good law. Gays aren't a threat to the institution of marriage. You can't blame a 50% divorce rate on a group of people who can't even participate in the institution in question. Legal marriage is a civil contract and, therefore, a contract into which any two consenting adults, regardless of gender, should be able to enter, period. The churches can do what they want to protect their versions of the institution, but the government should not apply its laws in a manner that discriminates against a minority.

[Edited 2005-04-04 20:27:37]
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
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PA110
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 7):
This is a free country and what is happening here is that a special interest group is demanding that they be accorded benefits that private industry does not want to give them.

Sorry, that's absolute rubbish!!! Private industry is, for the most part, out in front of government on this issue. The CEO's of Ohio's top 25 corporations actually went out and campaigned against that state's anti gay marriage initiative out of concern that they would lose both current and prospective talented gay and lesbian employees.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
Russophile
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Will straight people who claim that they are unable to commit to marriage start demanding equal rights?

*Scratching head* You do realise that breeders couldn't possibly claim what you are suggesting? *Scratching head*
 
Scorpio
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
If benefits are given to same-sex couple, then what next?

Um... reality check: before this ruling, they WERE given to these two. And guess what: the world DIDN'T end. Imagine that...

I see this as a sad sign of the USA slowly sliding into religious extremism.
 
dl021
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:19 am

My point exactly.....if people want something and it is going to be better for industry to give it to them than it will be to deny it then work for that or it will always be contested legally and the losing side will always cry foul and fight even dirtier the next time.

If its done by internal decision then it will be accepted and become part of the fabric of society.

Quoting Russophile (Reply 10):
You do realise that breeders couldn't possibly claim what you are suggesting?

the most telling quote from Russophile yet. indicative of a disdainful, intolerant and insulting discriminatory attitude towards heterosexuals as an entire class or group.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

Nope. Totally wrong. It's why we have the surpreme court and the judicial branch. Majority rules doesn't even always apply in elections!! let alone a legal sense. If you think democracy is about 'majority rules', sign up for Democracy 101 dude. There are PLENTY of things out there that a majority of people would probably agree with- that would miserably fail the test of Constitutionality.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:54 am

What is happening here is an attempted hijacking of government to force private industry into submission.

These are rights granted by the State government of Michigan here. The private sector has nothing to do with it. In fact, the private sector is far more willing to grant gay couples benefits than the public sector is.

Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

No, it does not.
There are constitutional guarantees that trump majority rule. In fact the history of the Constitution repeatedly makes it clear that the Constitution was created to stem the tyranny of majority rule. You need to go back to school and learn your civic history, in between dishing out peanuts.

Is being gay a barrier? They don't seem to think so when the hold Gay Pride Day.

What this has to do with fundamental civil rights is beyond me. Black people in the Jim Crow south could have a picnic in the woods, but this didn't mean that they had basic civil rights.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5748
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

HELLO... remember the 2000 Presidential Election? If our system of democracy was as you suggest, guess who wouldn't have been elected President due to getting 500,000 less total votes.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

Political Science 101 - any democratic state must respect majority rule, while PROTECTING AND ENSURING MINORITY RIGHTS!!

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 11):
And guess what: the world DIDN'T end.

Funny you mentioned that... same-sex marriage has been legal here in Ontario for roughly 2 years now and guess what??! ... the world hasn't ended yet, hell has opened up to swallow all of us, and the sky isn't falling... everything has continued pretty much the same way it was before... amazing isn't it!?
 
greasespot
Posts: 2968
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:18 am

So if the majority wanted to deny said benifits to black people that would also be ok?

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3282
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
No one is saying that these two people can't be together, just that you can't have something for nothing.

Ok, I'm confused. So gay people simply can't have something for nothing, but when straight people get something for nothing, thats alright then eh?

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 17):
So if the majority wanted to deny said benifits to black people that would also be ok?

Exellent point. Minority rights should apply to all minorities, you can't pick the ones you like and leave the ones you don't.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
in a democracy, it's majority rules.

Just because its what the majority wants to do doesn't mean its the right thing to do. Majority rules is far from being a perfectly fair system.





CanadianNorth
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exactly right Mav, in a democracy, it's majority rules.

That's crap, and you know it. All the great Presidents of our past have lauded our system for NOT being majority rules.

The Constitution is designed to protect the rights of the minority, as well as promote the will of the majority. Otherwise, there would be no women's or civil rights in this country at all.

Every time some "good American" touts majority rule as the reason for discrimination or prejudice, it makes my blood boil. This is America, freedom is universal, not just for the majority.

N
 
Marco
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:22 am

I see this as a sad sign of the USA slowly sliding into religious extremism.

Most of the countries around the world do not even recognize homosexuality or gay marriage for that matter...are they all religious extremists?

And why are Canadians always the first ones to point fingers at the Americans? Who are you to tell another country how to run their domestic policy? Is it because Canada is a shining example?  Yeah sure Don't even bother answering ....
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5050
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:28 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
Most of the countries around the world do not even recognize homosexuality or gay marriage for that matter...are they all religious extremists?

How many of these are Western societies? How many Western societies are turning the clock BACK on issues like this? I can think of only one, and it's to the south of where you live...
 
mham001
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:48 am

What about equal rights for the 25-30% of the population who is single?

Why are gays any more worthy of these rights than your average single person?
 
Marco
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:37 am

How many of these are Western societies? How many Western societies are turning the clock BACK on issues like this? I can think of only one, and it's to the south of where you live...

And why are only western countries used as a comparison? What's wrong with the rest of the world? You 're too scared to mention Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, etc because they are Islamic states (well Syria is secular but majority is Muslim) and it's their "culture" ... maybe the Americans have made up their mind, and you shouldn't interfere with their internal affairs.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 22):
What about equal rights for the 25-30% of the population who is single?

Why are gays any more worthy of these rights than your average single person?

How does having the legal right to make decisions for your partner in the context of hospitilization/life-support apply to the "average single person"?

Also, single people have the option to marry... unless, of course they're gay.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4329
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 22):
What about equal rights for the 25-30% of the population who is single?

Why are gays any more worthy of these rights than your average single person?

Feel free to visit your imaginary spouse in the hospital. Feel free to have a shared finances with this person. AND dont forget to talk to your company about benefits and coverage for this imaginary spouse.

What are you talking about? If you'd look at these 'special rights', you would see they are dependent on TWO HUMAN BEINGS!!!
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):

How does having the legal right to make decisions for your partner in the context of hospitilization/life-support apply to the "average single person"?

Also, single people have the option to marry... unless, of course they're gay.

Oh, but those are not the only issues gays are demanding. Full marriage rights provide a myriad of finacial benefits as well, not available to single folks. In fact, all those issues you've just listed can be handled quite simply with power of attorney.

As for the standard "they can always get married", well, a black can bleach his skin, a jew could change his religion, a woman can get a sex change, yet that is not required to have civil rights protection in the constitution. Why should a happily single person be required to get married to enjoy the same benefits of a married gay couple?
Once gays cross the line of legal marriage, how can we justify any special benefits for marriage when the reasons behind those benefits pertain to procreating the species? Yes, i know, many hetero marriages are shams and will never produce children and some gays have children, but so do singles. So once the line is crossed, there are no further reasons for any marriage benefits. Why would a gay couple be allowed to pass their SS but not a single person? Or their estate with tax breaks? Because I don't have sex with him?

It boils down to, why should gays get 'rights' that singles don't have?
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 25):
Feel free to visit your imaginary spouse in the hospital. Feel free to have a shared finances with this person. AND dont forget to talk to your company about benefits and coverage for this imaginary spouse.

What are you talking about? If you'd look at these 'special rights', you would see they are dependent on TWO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

Do you really think that extending insurance benefits is not a cost to society? Those rights were extended to those who were expected to further the species, populate the country, etc. The financial benefits of marriage have a cost on society which it expects to recieve back in a stable, next-generation. Absolutely, discrimination. For a justifiable reason in the minds of society. Now, since gays represent 3-7% of the population compared to 25-30% singles, and procreation is negligible from the former, how will we justify keeping those financial benefits from a significantly larger minority?
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
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RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:43 am

Well it’s great to see that most people are for gay marriages, I was expecting to read a bit more negative reactions.
Gay people want to have the right to marriage and the same health benefits that straight people do. So what? I believe one of the big reasons why the government (states + prez bush) is against it is because of the religious angle (were they mostly republican states  Smile ) I don’t see why it should make a difference, let them do what they want give them the exact same opportunities. It’s not like they are asking for extra benefits and costing taxpayers money so let’s not go there.
-Nikhil
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TWFirst
Posts: 5748
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 26):
It boils down to, why should gays get 'rights' that singles don't have?

Illogical conclusion.

Logical conclusion A based on your argument: ALL citizens, gay or straight, married or single, should be allowed the same federal legal/financial benefits currently awarded only to heterosexual married couples.

or

Logical conclusion B based on your argument: If the reasons behind the federal legal/financial benefits in question are truly to encourage/reward "procreating the species"... then only those citizens, married or unmarried who "procreate the species" should be allowed the benefits.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4329
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:59 am

I agree that it is not always fair for single people, looking at the benefits that married people receive. However, this is not the way to petition for rights like that. Start a thread about singles benefits, contact your representitive. Coming here and essentially saying 'well we dont have benefits like that, so they sure as hell cant' is pretty classless and foolish.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 27):
Those rights were extended to those who were expected to further the species, populate the country, etc.

There are plenty of married people who who do not have children, either by choice or medical or whatever. Why dont you take their benefits away then? This argument has a bigger hole than the Titanic.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 27):
how will we justify keeping those financial benefits from a significantly larger minority?

Instead of saying 'those benefits', many of which would be impossible to apply without 2 people, why dont you tell us the specific benefits you feel singles should have?

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 26):
It boils down to, why should gays get 'rights' that singles don't have?

So gay=single? Wow what more of a generalization could be made? There are single gay people. There are also gay people in committed, long-term relationships, worthy of marriage.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 29):
Illogical conclusion.

Logical conclusion A based on your argument: ALL citizens, gay or straight, married or single, should be allowed the same federal legal/financial benefits currently awarded only to heterosexual married couples.

or

Logical conclusion B based on your argument: If the reasons behind the federal legal/financial benefits in question are truly to encourage/reward "procreating the species"... then only those citizens, married or unmarried who "procreate the species" should be allowed the benefits.

Yes, you have come to the fair conclusion. Either we extend those benefits to all people, single, married gay or hetero, or we have a system of justified discrimination based on the old need to populate the world.

I fully understand the hole that many hetero don't procreate. It is a big one, but it is the line society has drawn. If gays want the line redrawn, we have eliminate the idea of any special financial considerations or they MUST be given to all people as the constitution requires. How could the Supreme Court justify anything less? I would really like to hear that legal argument. Do you have ideas?

I find it amusing that the same people demanding equal rights for themselves are so quick to argue against the same benefits to others.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4329
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Gay Couple Sue Governor

Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 31):
If gays want the line redrawn, we have eliminate the idea of any special financial considerations or they MUST be given to all people as the constitution requires.

Once again, I ask you to be specific about rights that single people should recieve that would make things equal. I'm a bit miffed how you would apply a 2 person marriage system to one, so I would like your input. I support equal and fair rights for all people.
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