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rsmith6621a
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Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:36 am

Nebraska Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel is angry. He's upset about the more than 1,700 U.S. soldiers killed and nearly 13,000 wounded in Iraq. He's also aggravated by the continued string of sunny assessments from the Bush administration, such as Vice President Dick Cheney's recent remark that the insurgency is in its "last throes." "Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse. The White House is completely disconnected from reality," Hagel tells U.S. News. "It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20050618/ts_usnews/hitbyfriendlyfire

*******************************

Yes finally some Repubs are finally facing the real truth about this war. Hagel says it like it is......"sunny assessments " The Bush administration still has no exit plan. The more we try and attack the insurgence the more they strike back and they do it harder each time. The US has had control of Iraq and still havent got it under control. The USA has been responsible for as many death of innocent Iraqys as Saddam.

Oh let not forget the Downing Street Memos.......these will be the downfall of the Bush administration. They expose the LIE that has been told to the USA and the rest the world.....How much oil has been sold to help pay for this WAR?

Thank You Senator Hagel.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
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alberchico
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Yes finally some Repubs are finally facing the real truth about this war.

Too little Too late. Bush already won re-election. The war was wrong from the beginning. First for WMD's, then for materials to make them, then for the dubious Iraq -Al Queada link (I am willing to give Bush the benefit of doubt about this), then for the liberation of Iraqis, then for the capture of Hussein.
Don't get me wrong I am glad we captured that SOB but it was not worth 250 Billion just for that.
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texan
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 1):
the dubious Iraq -Al Queada link (I am willing to give Bush the benefit of doubt about this)

Al Qaeda did not have major operations in Iraq because Sadaam saw them as a threat to power. He had a price out on bin Laden's head and, while he most likely did aid other terrorist organizations, he did not help out bin Laden's group at all.

Kudos to Senator Hagel.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
KC135R
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:05 am

I agree with much of Hagel's assessment, especially how sad it is that Americans and innocent Iraqis (not the insurgents) keep dying. I also think this blind loyalty to Bush that some people show is disgusting, just because Bush or Cheney says something does not make it so. The legacy of GW Bush will be failure as a leader - BUT I hope not failure in Iraq. Now that we are there, despite the lack of WMDs, I hope we can give them the foundation for democracy and that - soon - our soldiers come home.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 2):
Al Qaeda did not have major operations in Iraq because Sadaam saw them as a threat to power. He had a price out on bin Laden's head and, while he most likely did aid other terrorist organizations, he did not help out bin Laden's group at all.

Really? Because the last I read they had talks while Bin Laden was in Sudan and again while in Afghanistan. They reportedly didn't lead to collaborations, but I'd like to see where SH had a bounty on Bin's head.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
The USA has been responsible for as many death of innocent Iraqys as Saddam.

Now that's a crock of crap RSMith . . . you got anything to back up your "theory" or are you just back to babbling lines of BS once again?

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
but I'd like to see where SH had a bounty on Bin's head

So would I . . .

I would agree however, I see no exit plan. There hasn't been one from the start. Fundamental strategic error.

Furthermore, there wasn't a plan for after capturing the country. If there was, I see no evidence of it. Seat of the pants operation. While I realize no operation order ever survives first contact, I see no eveidence one was ever written . . . unfortunately.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TedTAce
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 1):
Too little Too late. Bush already won re-election.

But he can be impeached... The only problem I have is the case of the devil you know versus the one you don't... who'd take his place and how would they legitimize the BADLY beaten (speaking of politicians not the troops who I respect for doing what I won't) US Government?
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rsmith6621a
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 6):
who'd take his place

Whats the difference......We all if we are awake know that it is Cheney who is calling all the shots right along with Rove......BUSH is just the puppet.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
KC135R
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:30 pm

Hagel is not the only one getting tired of the status quo:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/19/mccain/

The gist of it:

Sen. John McCain disagreed Sunday with Vice President Dick Cheney's assertion that the insurgency in Iraq is in its "last throes," and called on the Bush administration to stop telling Americans victory is around the corner.
 
zeekiel
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
He's upset about the more than 1,700 U.S. soldiers killed and nearly 13,000 wounded in Iraq

Most of those casualties is after major combat operations were ceased sometime in 2003.

Problem is that in war casualties obviously happen. There is no way the United States armed forces were going to come out unscathed or without a few lions scratches.

People who voted for the war (if this guy did) should have realised that American's were going to come home in bodybags. They should have been prepared for heavy casualties. War is unpredictable.

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
The reality is that we're losing in Iraq."

The problem is if the United States is losing, who's winning?

I guess a lot of people thought Iraq were easy beats (and they were). The United States and allies took over the country in a few weeks.

It just seemed like even though the Iraqi armed forces had large numbers, the elusive Republican Guard seemed to just disappear. No major battles were fought even as conventional infantry. The resistance by Germany in 1945 and Vietnam in the 60's and 70's had much more fight.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
I would agree however, I see no exit plan. There hasn't been one from the start. Fundamental strategic error.

There was no firm planning done. No one had any idea of the scale of the insurgency or had planned for such major attacks by rebels and terrorists. No one forsaw the possible sectarian differences and how they would affect the political makeup of the state. These problems are filtering out now.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 9):
No one forsaw the possible sectarian differences and how they would affect the political makeup of the state.

Not even our oh so highly qualified now SecState and all her PhDs who was of course ass deep in planning this escapade into the desert.

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 9):
There was no firm planning done.

Wrong. There was excellent planning for the assault and followon campaign to take the country. Especially that of the 3/7 Cavalry - a unit that moved farther and faster than any other military unit in US History. Awesome planning . . . right up until they had the country under "US Control", then the pinhead chairwarmers at the 5 Sided Funny Farm all stood around going, "Well, now what?" That's where the DoD leadership (pardon my use of the terms DoD and Leadership in the same breath) absolutely, positively failed the soldiers in the field and the US.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
zeekiel
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Wrong. There was excellent planning for the assault and followon campaign to take the country.

The initial attack was well planned and executed. There's no doubt there. To take over a country in a few weeks is very well planned and executed.

My comments were related to the exit plan and the current lack of control in the country FROM the point of United States control. So I am correct to your theory. Probably need to make myself more clear next time .

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-06-20 06:23:58]
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 11):
My comments were related to the exit plan and the current lack of control in the country FROM the point of United States control. So I am correct to your theory. Probably need to make myself more clear next time

I of course agree with you . . . was being sarcastic in a way pointing out the very obvious flaw in our Defense Department's planning and execution of this escapade. It starts with the autocratic, dictatorial style of Don Dumsfeld and perpetuates throughout . . . don't agree with Dumsfeld, you're fired. That's not leadership, that's  redflag  BS.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
tbar220
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:38 pm

What would happen if Bush was impeached? Cheney would take control? What about Rumsfeld? Rove? Rice? All the other cronies involved in this war?
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texan
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Really? Because the last I read they had talks while Bin Laden was in Sudan and again while in Afghanistan. They reportedly didn't lead to collaborations, but I'd like to see where SH had a bounty on Bin's head.

Right after Saddam invaded Kuwait, bin Laden offered 10,000 Mujahadeen to help Saudi Arabia fight Iraq. Saddam put a price on his head shortly after. There is also the fact that Saddam is a secularist, which, in bin Laden's eyes, makes him an infidel. In fact, bin Laden stated in a Feb. 11, 2003 broadcast that Saddam was an infidel. bin Laden represented an alternative power and political force to Saddam. He did not want any alternatives to himself. Coupled with the insult of having bin Laden offer to invade his lands, it is pretty easy to see why the two of them do not and have not gotten along in the past.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:38 pm

Texan:
Be careful with those facts. Bush supporters don't like to be reminded of that. The scumbag Bin Laden hated Saddam Hussein's government as much as he hates the United States regardless of who is in the White House.
Perhaps it's time for these military recruiters to 'aggressively recruit' from the high schools and shopping malls in the upscale suburbs of Dallas, Houston, San Diego and all other GOP strongholds to lend there patriotic duty and help our soldiers win in Iraq. After all, the military's 'aggressive recruiting' has been successful in the high schools and shopping malls of the inner cities.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:42 pm

YAYERS... More US troops are going to die and give me even MORE to rant about how bad Bush is and how stupid our nation is.

Signed,
Rsmith and company.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
senorcarnival
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:14 pm

Oh great, so after bombing the sh%t out of Iraq, they simply want to leave? The war might not have been a solution to Iraq's woes, but I can't help but feel that the United States and their alliance should foot the bill for repairing Iraq. Are they just going to tiptoe their way out and say, "Sorry about that misunderstanding on the WMDs, sorry we bombed your country beyond recognition, but we're gonna go ahead and go now. Have a nice life!"
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:34 pm

Quoting Senorcarnival (Reply 17):
Oh great, so after bombing the sh%t out of Iraq, they simply want to leave? The war might not have been a solution to Iraq's woes, but I can't help but feel that the United States and their alliance should foot the bill for repairing Iraq. Are they just going to tiptoe their way out and say, "Sorry about that misunderstanding on the WMDs, sorry we bombed your country beyond recognition, but we're gonna go ahead and go now. Have a nice life!"

Obviously that is not going to happen Senor . . .

That said, it's about time the Republican Senate realizes as a lot of other do that 'things haven't gone exactly swimmingly' in Iraq . . . we will saty in there nutil the job is done. Perhaps now, however, the DoD and others in DC will be forcede to provide a heretofore unproduced exit strategy and really get down to the business of getting Iraq back on it's feet. . .

One can only hope.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:12 pm

Its a Situation in which the US can't leave And as long as they are there,The Attacks will continue.
I wonder when it would End.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TedTAce
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
What would happen if Bush was impeached? Cheney would take control?

Presuming that Cheney isn't impeached (and convicted and removed from office) as well; he is the puppet master isin't he? Cheny would take control, if they are both impeached/convicted/removed from office then it goes to Denis Hastert.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
What about Rumsfeld? Rove? Rice? All the other cronies involved in this war?

We could only hope they are convicted and sent to the federal pen too.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Its a Situation in which the US can't leave And as long as they are there,The Attacks will continue.
I wonder when it would End.

Right about the time the nukes start to turn the place to glass.
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jamesag96
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting Texan (Reply 14):
He did not want any alternatives to himself. Coupled with the insult of having bin Laden offer to invade his lands, it is pretty easy to see why the two of them do not and have not gotten along in the past.

And yet, high level talks between them occurred several times over the span of a few years in Sudan and Afghanistan.

Or are we to take what SH and BL say about each other at face value?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Be careful with those facts

Yes...be careful with your "facts".
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
b757300
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:08 am

Once again UpChuck Hagel decides to side with the Democrats but that is no surprise. He is taking the McLame approach to running for President. UpChuck thinks by attacking the President he is going to win the Republican nomination. Fat chance traitor boy.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
I would agree however, I see no exit plan. There hasn't been one from the start. Fundamental strategic error.

Once again our resident "moderate" has to agree with the lefties. (Seems to be all "moderates" ever do.) The exit plan has always been there. When Iraq is able to take care of itself, we will leave. If we announce that we're leaving on July 1, 2006, then the terrorists will simply wait until we're gone and then come out in full force. Think about it people. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out but then again those blind with hatred can't see reality if it bites them on the as*.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:11 am

B757300:
Thanks for the laughs!  Silly
Just what I need this Monday morning.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
MD-90
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:14 am

Time to impeach Bush and Cheney!

Liars.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:17 am

Wait a minute.
I am agreeing with Boeing4ever and MD-90 in the same day?!?!
I better look out on the horizon to see if Jesus is coming!  Silly
Bring back the Concorde
 
MD-90
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:19 am

Look east, Superfly, look east.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 26):
Look east, Superfly, look east.

Hey, you're right!
I see him coming. He is a Black guy that looks like Bob Marley.  Cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
dvk
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Hey, you're right!
I see him coming. He is a Black guy that looks like Bob Marley.

Thanks for my best laugh so far today, Superfly!
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 22):
Once again our resident "moderate" has to agree with the lefties. (Seems to be all "moderates" ever do.) The exit plan has always been there. When Iraq is able to take care of itself, we will leave. If we announce that we're leaving on July 1, 2006, then the terrorists will simply wait until we're gone and then come out in full force.

I call 'em like I see 'em rather than just swinging in the trees with the Republican Party Banner tatooed to my ass.

I have plenty of friends - and family - that have served there this trip and believe me when I tell you, if there was an exit strategy, or a contingency plan, no one saw it. No one planned for followon operations until they were in the middle of them. The Pentagon (read that Dumsfeld and his minions) figured we could cake walk our asses in there like 1991 and be done and gone in six months. Instead of planning for contingencies, they stayed narrow on the focus and didn't 'adjust fire' when the target moved quickly enough. Why, no one dares make a move without Dumsfelds okay - simple answer.

Speaking of Rocket Scientists - if you had ever been schooled in the Operation Art of War B757300 you'd know this too . . .

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 24):
Time to impeach Bush and Cheney!

Told you before, telling you again MD90 - you didn't vote, you don't have a dig in this hunt. Your opinion, positive or negative, is useless when it comes to PotUS or his Vice.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
He is a Black guy that looks like Bob Marley.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
zeekiel
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:29 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 22):
Once again our resident "moderate" has to agree with the lefties. (Seems to be all "moderates" ever do.)

That's why they are moderates. They can side with either side of the political argument. They have views from both sides. In my mind, moderates or centrists are what keep the world sane from the extreme ends of the political spectrum. But that's another story.

Do you think I'm a Leftie? If yes, then what makes you think so?

Quoting B757300 (Reply 22):
When Iraq is able to take care of itself, we will leave.

Can you give me an estimation of when that is going to be? Every morning as I wake up I hear about multiple insurgent attacks. 40 dead, 60 dead, 25 dead, 10 dead etc... Every offensive that the Coalition has carried out has suceeded in doing something. But nothing changes. In fact it's getting worse.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 22):
If we announce that we're leaving on July 1, 2006, then the terrorists will simply wait until we're gone and then come out in full force

It doesn't matter whether you leave tomorrow, 2 years or whenever. Those terrorists are going to be there causing havoc.

The day they announce they will leave, there will be insurgent attacks regardless.

The exit plan refers to the strategic withdrawal from the Iraqi theatre of operations for the United States and her allies. Disengagement, total handover of security to Iraqi forces and physical removal from the theatre of operations.

That's still a long way off considering the exit plan heavily depends on the internal stability and ability of the Iraqi forces to control the country when the last Grunt leaves.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-06-21 05:32:06]
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:59 am

Bring back the Concorde
 
srbmod
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):

Good to see the cartoon make its way over here from the other thread in which I posted it.

[Edited 2005-06-21 18:32:02]
 
Superfly
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:34 am

Srbmod:
Which thread was that?
Are you a fan of Mike Lukovich too?
Bring back the Concorde
 
srbmod
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RE: Rep. Senator Hagel...US Is Losing In Iraq

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:55 am

The thread was "6 out of 10 Americans are against the War in Iraq" (something like that), but had been deleted. Since Luckovich is the AJC's guy, I've got to be a bit of a homer in regards to him.

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