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clipperhawaii
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Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:59 pm

Sen. Dick Durbin tearfully apologized Tuesday for comparing American interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp to Nazis and other historically infamous figures.

To those who were extremely offended by his remarks he has said, "To them I extend my heartfelt apologies."

His voice quaking and tears welling in his eyes, the No. 2 Democrat in the U.S. Senate also apologized to soldiers in the U.S. military. "They're the best. I never, ever intended any disrespect for them," he said.

I takes a big man to apologize on what was clearly yet again, a very poor choice of words.

Thank you Senator Durbin but the damage is done. Now don't let it happen again. Do you hear????!!!!
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
L-188
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:02 pm

Don't worry, he's a democrat.

The media will let it slide.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:09 pm

He's had his 15 minutes of fame . . .

His remarks were uncalled for - reminds me of some A-Net posts - and unjustified. I'm not going to pretend there's nothing going on at Gitmo or at AbuGhraib, etc - but we're certainly NOT in the company of the Nazi's or the Japanese (what was the number of the prison camp in China where all the medical experiements were carried out? I forget) or the Soviets. Anyone thinking along those lines is outof their minds.

I think he could have gotten through the apology - which I'm surprised he made - without the Hollywood theatrics . . .

Now, for the other shoe - with the exception of John McCain, no Republican Senator - least of all Frist who wrote the letter calling for this apology - happened to thank him or anything. What a sorry state. At least Frist could acknowledge the effort - asshole.

[Edited 2005-06-22 06:14:19]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:12 pm

Durbin was threatened.....by the strongarming Bush administration.....
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:14 pm

Hold your horses...let's look at the quote that enfuriated so many people...people being conservatives.
From Dick Durbin:"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings,"

Well let's see...people being chained to the floors, no food or water for long stretches and urinating and defecating on themselves. Hmm...I think what Mr. Durbin said was spot on! Why would America act like this? Treating prisoners in this manner is reprehensible and more fitting to a society like Mr. Durbin mentioned. Moreover, it's MORE reprehensible that the atmosphere of Washington forces Mr. Durbin to pull back a statement simply because it might offend some military officers! I've got some news for yall-Military officers are not always honourable! Just because someone serves in the military does not make them honourable...

Obviously L-188, that's why it's in the headlines of CNN.com and is on CNN.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 3):
Durbin was threatened.....by the strongarming Bush administration.....

You really don't know too much about Illinois politics, so don't talk.

Most people in IL really didn't give two hoots about it. Why? Just another corrupt Illinois politician getting himself into hot water for shooting his mouth off. Hell Governor Blagojavich's little family feud with Chicago Alderman Dick Mel has gotten the unwelcome attention of the feds...there are more federal agents investigating Illinois government than in any other place in the country. Won't be long before our hapless Governor ends up indicted...the second Governor in a row to recieve this distinction.

Plain and simply Rsmith, Durbin shot his mouth off with a baseless comparison...worse, he shot the cause of getting justice over the abuse allegations right in the foot. Leave it to an Illinois Senator to fuck things up.

Thankfully Peter Fitzgerald is out of the picture.

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SFOMEX
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:24 pm

It was the right thing to do. At least he is showing some decency now.

I may be delusional, but I'd expect the same of the 15 Senators who failed to co-sponsor the Senate's apology to the African American community.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 3):
Durbin was threatened.....by the strongarming Bush administration.....

You mean Halliburton, Israel, and Walmart weren't behind this???
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 4):
Hmm...I think what Mr. Durbin said was spot on!

 redflag  Perhaps you ought to re-read history then Pendrilsaint, I think you've been shortchanged by your History Teacher!!  sarcastic 

I think if you read up on Pol Pot, and re-read history on the Nazi's and their camps and perhaps delved into a few Soviet Gulags, you'd find you're way out in left field here - right along with Durbin. Go read up on the Japanese camps in China in the late 1930s - Specifically, look up Unit 731 . . .

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 4):
Treating prisoners in this manner is reprehensible

Quite correct. Absolutely correct. That said, no where near the inhumane antics of the likes of the regimes mentioned.

You're quite off your rocker if you think the comparison is similar.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:34 pm

Please ANC Flyer, I guarantee I can run circles around you in the history department. The point is that we are involved in things that are not befitting to notion of America! All you have to do is go and look at what has occurred at Abu Gharib, Gitmo, and other prisons holding 'suspected terrorists' and see what soldiers do to inmates and realize that it is far from humane! So we don't execute the prisoners outright like Pol Pot or march them to Bhatan-they are still being treated highly inhumanely by modern standards.
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:38 pm

Secondly ANC Flyer- look at this way. He never did say that we were acting exactly like these afore mentioned regimes; what he did say is that if we look at what has occurred there without any reference to nation or period what would someone say? Well what would you say? America would certainly not be my first choice...prisoners defecating on themselves...insulted...chained to the ground in the sun...I would say it sounded like Vietnam or the Soviet Union...but if that sounds like America to you...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 9):
se ANC Flyer, I guarantee I can run circles around you in the history department.

Don't bet the farm on that Junior.

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 9):
The point is that we are involved in things that are not befitting to notion of America! All you have to do is go and look at what has occurred at Abu Gharib, Gitmo, and other prisons holding 'suspected terrorists' and see what soldiers do to inmates and realize that it is far from humane!

I quite agree. It is NOT however in any way, reminscent of the Soviet Gulags, Japanese Camps in China, Nazi camps in Poland. If you thnik that, you're simply wrong - dead wrong period. Anyone else drawing the same comparison - including Sen Durbin - is wrong - dead wrong.

I do not condone the actions of these "soldiers" (term used lightly as a real soldier wouldn't do this) but to make the comparison is bizarre.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
B2707SST
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 4):
Well let's see...people being chained to the floors, no food or water for long stretches and urinating and defecating on themselves. Hmm...I think what Mr. Durbin said was spot on! Why would America act like this?

If Durbin (or anyone else) thinks that the abuses in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, as objectionable as they may be, are comparable to what went on in:

http://www.weddingday.nl/Poland/east-polesie/Camps/images/069Lublin-Majdanek.jpg

Nazi camps,




Soviet gulags,




or Pol Pot's Cambodia,


betrays a disturbing ignorance of history.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:45 pm

There was not a comparison made ANC! Look at what he said carefully. He never said that we were acting just like these regimes; he simply said that if were not to know the country, we would not assume it is America. He never said the soldiers were acting like Nazis! If he had come to the podium and said "the soldiers are acting like Nazis and KGB members" then that would have been something entirely different. This is a case of conservatives taking offense at something they didn't read carefully enough.

And I would bet the farm-and ol' bessy too, pops ; )
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:47 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 13):
This is a case of conservatives taking offense at something they didn't read carefully enough.

Oh? Then why did he apologize?
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:52 pm

I find it disturbing that no one has taken the time to really think about what Durbin said. Of course there are no mounds of skulls, ovens, or burial pits; however, he basically said that this falls under the category of things that do not belong under the heading of America perpetrated deeds. I imagine Dick Durbin has a fine idea of what occured with the Khmer Rouge, the Soviets, and the Nazis, but his point was not to compare the regime here with the regime there.
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:54 pm

Politics Clipper; the conservatives fly off the handle when they hear such things and to avoid criticism Durbin has to apologize.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 16):
to avoid criticism Durbin has to apologize.

I don't think Durbin is looking to placate conservatives. He was wrong and he apologized. Tearfully. His comments were outrageous to Americans. Conservative or not. Hope he learned his lesson.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
B2707SST
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 15):
I find it disturbing that no one has taken the time to really think about what Durbin said. Of course there are no mounds of skulls, ovens, or burial pits; however, he basically said that this falls under the category of things that do not belong under the heading of America perpetrated deeds.

Nonsense; that is not what Durbin said. He did not bother to qualify his comparison as one between unequals simply for rhetorical effect, as you have done for him. Instead, he made a direct and indisputable comparison between what is going in in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and the conduct of the Nazis, the Soviets, and the Khmer Rouge -- three regimes together killed tens of millions of people in deliberate programs of genocide and totalitarian repression:

"you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others..."

This is not a statement open to interpretation. It should be obvious to any thinking person that such a comparison is ridiculous. The things that were done by the Nazis, the Soviets in the gulags, or the regime of Pol Pot should suffer no comparison whatsoever to the justifiably unacceptable incidents in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

The systematic extermination of entire populations is so removed from allowing detainees to defecate on themselves or remain chained to their beds that Durbin's initial use of the comment boggles the mind. Unfortunately, he typifies the hysterical state of the Democratic left these days, which routinely compares the President with the worst tyrants and butchers in human history. That this tactic not only makes them look absurd but trivializes the victims of these atrocities apparently bothers them not a whit.

--B2707SST
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jaysit
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:08 pm

What a weenie.

If he had a pair of balls, he would have explained what he meant, even if it meant losing a few votes.

Like most spineless Democrats, this man buckles to the usual yowls of patriotic jingoism drummed up by the Republicans.
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:35 pm

I find it disturbing that no one has taken the time to really think about what Durbin said.

Let me point out the highlights of the info Senator Durbin was reading from an FBI agent:

On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water.

Note the term interview rooms? During interrogation, this is perfectly acceptable under the Geneva Convention. It's NOT acceptable for long-term captivity, which was not the case here. This was just for interrogation.

Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more.

Gross? Absolutely. Uncomfortable, definitely - but not inhumane like using pliers to remove fingernails or being left in a bamboo cage for months.

On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees.

Horrors! He was forced to temporarily deal with too hot or too cold conditions? Too much or too little air conditioning?!?  sarcastic 

So why hasn't Senator Durbin raised a stink about Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's outdoor "tent city" complex? Or any other prison in the U.S. for that matter? Prisoners have occasionaly dealt with these and far worse conditions for years, with no outcry from the floor of the U.S. Senate.


The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.

How did he pull his hair out if he was "chained in the fetal position," exactly? Odd. Perhaps he had more freedom of motion than was previously claimed?

On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.


With his hair intact, I'd presume.

It was hot, with rap music playing. Again, horrors! We're subjecting terrorists to the same treatment they'd get on the streets of East L.A. or South Phoenix!


Senator Durbin was clearly attempting to get people riled up about Guantanamo, but the fact of the matter - at least according to this report of his - is that Gitmo detainees are being treated to occasional discomfort and intimidation during routine interrogation, nothing more.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:10 pm

Torture is torture, whoever's doing it. Everything else is just a matter of degree. It may not be Auschwitz, but Guantanamo Bay will be an enduring stain on America's record, and Americans will look back on this era with shame.
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L-188
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:14 pm

You know, I don't think any of the victims of those real death camps where entertained by the singing of Christina Agulleria, Arugulla....however the hell she spells it.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
Gitmo detainees are being treated to occasional discomfort and intimidation during routine interrogation, nothing more.

Correct. And I lose no sleep over it.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
Torture is torture, whoever's doing it.

Correct. Except in this case at Guantanamo it's not happening. As for shame, no. No shame about Guantanamo and the lovely accommodations there. Now unless of course your definition of torture is different. Heck, reading some of these posts by Hans and Marcel are torture. You know who you are and the torture you give.

Anyone know the Red Cross number in Switzerland? I feel "tortured" and I need to complain.

Guantanamo....still there and still open until WE decide we want to close it.
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Don't worry, he's a democrat.

The media will let it slide.

You if by slide you mean slide into constant sound bites and constant screaming by conservative pundits, then you are right.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
You mean Halliburton, Israel, and Walmart weren't behind this???

Well, Bush Administration is shorter to type

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 17):
I don't think Durbin is looking to placate conservatives. He was wrong and he apologized. Tearfully. His comments were outrageous to Americans. Conservative or not. Hope he learned his lesson.

While I disagree over the extent to which he was wrong, I find it quite commendable if he appologised because he truly thought he was wrong. It is something the right wing never does when they kill civil rights leaders, call us baby killers and insult our strong family values

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
What a weenie.

If he had a pair of balls, he would have explained what he meant, even if it meant losing a few votes.

Like most spineless Democrats, this man buckles to the usual yowls of patriotic jingoism drummed up by the Republicans.

I totally agree with this post

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
You know, I don't think any of the victims of those real death camps where entertained by the singing of Christina Agulleria, Arugulla....however the hell she spells it.

3 seconds Shaw is all that would have taken. You are once again showing ignorant racism here.
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:39 pm

I see tremendous similarities between what the US is doing now and what history has taught me that Nazi Germany did in the 1930s and 1940s.

Guantanamo Bay is essentially a concentration camp for so-called undesirables that the state wishes to be held without due process.

The NSEERS program when coupled with the new US-VISIT is essentially a means of identifying and registering undesirable members of society based on their ethnicity and religious affiliation.

The contrived excuses to go to war in Iraq ring very similar to Hitler's justification for his European conquests.

Innocent civilians may not have been executed without trial quite yet in the United States, but the Patriot Act allows for the provision of military tribunals sitting in judgement over civilians with the power to sentence them to death.

There is not a strong enough case to classify Bush anywhere near in the same league as Hitler yet, but it is enough in my opinion to open a relevant discussion on the matter.

I apologize to anybody who may be offended by my views but I fear that history may record George W. Bush as having had as much of a negative impact on the world order as many other historical leaders who are universally reviled today. The absolute severity of his actions may be diluted, but the platform and context will guarantee him a place in infamy.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 25):
I see tremendous similarities between what the US is doing now and what history has taught me that Nazi Germany did in the 1930s and 1940s.

Guantanamo Bay is essentially a concentration camp for so-called undesirables that the state wishes to be held without due process.

I disagree Sean, not nearly so dramatic and traumatic. I don't recall there being three meals a day, religious freedom, air conditioning, beds with mattresses and linen, etc in any photo I ever saw of a Nazi concentration camp.

Perhaps the broadest definition applied to GitMo and you could get away with calling it a Concentration camp, but remotely comparing it to anything along the lines of Aushwitz, or Buchenwald or any of the others is bizarre.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TedTAce
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:22 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Thread starter):
Dick Durbin

is a PU$$Y!!
This space intentionally left blank
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 25):
Guantanamo Bay is essentially a concentration camp for so-called undesirables that the state wishes to be held without due process.

While not comparable to the extermination camps and Siberian Gulags, Guantanamo reminds me of the early Nazi concentration camps of the early to mid 1930s, set up in prisons or military barracks, where people were imprisoned without conviction under the "Schutzhaft" (Protective custody) laws and were held in lawless conditions, without access to a solicitor or contact with the outside.
These Schutzhaft laws permitted the police or Gestapo to imprison persons infinitely without requiring a verdict by a judge. Persons, who were aquitted by a judge were often arrested again just outside the courthouse and locked away under the Schutzhaft laws. Once inside the camp, the gurds could treat the prisoners in any way they liked, without being held responsible.

Jan

[Edited 2005-06-22 14:38:48]
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FDXmech
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
While not comparable to the extermination camps and Siberian Gulags, Guantanamo reminds me of the early Nazi concentration camps of the early to mid 1930s, set up in prisons or military barracks, where people were imprisoned without conviction under the "Schutzhaft" (Protective custody) laws and were held in lawless conditions, without access to a solicitor or contact with the outside.

Or even the Japanese internment camps in the US during WW2. Except most of Gitmo's prisoners were in a war zone as opposed to the Japanese-Americans who were simply rounded up because of their race.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
disagree Sean, not nearly so dramatic and traumatic.

What was the slogan??? Four more years!!!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
I don't recall there being three meals a day, religious freedom, air conditioning, beds with mattresses and linen, etc in any photo I ever saw of a Nazi concentration camp.

So this is the logic the Bush-supporters comfort themselves with? Guantanamo is not as bad because they have beds nad a/c? We are not (yet) as bad as the communists or nazis so whatever awful thing we do is ok? The fact that they are held there as long their captors want, without any internationally acknowledged status, without access to a lawyer, not charged with anything, not serving a sentence, just being locked up because someone (who incidentally is babbling about democracy and freedom 24/7) wants them to be behind bars, THAT's what makes it a GULAG of our time. Whether they have air conditioning or not is a detail.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:09 pm

L410, I expect nothing more out of your posts. I don't suppose you read the other posts in here, or recall where I also said the negatives actions occuring at GitMo or anywhere else are unacceptable.

Conveniently you take the entire post and it's meaning out of context. Your usual tact.

I'm not justifying anything. I am however making it clear that any comparison between current US military prison camps and anything remotely associated with the Nazi's or the Japanese is ridiculous, ludicrous and of the extreme. Get back in the context of the discussion.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
slider
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:49 pm

I'm not fooled by the crocodile tears. Sedition is sedition no matter how much you dress it up or backpedal from it.

Durbin's a prick.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
Sedition is sedition no matter how much you dress it up or backpedal from it.

So any criticism of GWB´s government is an act of treason?

"Sedition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Sedition is a deprecated term of law to refer to non-overt conduct such as speech and organization that is deemed by the legal authority as tending toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often included subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws.

Because "sedition" is typically considered the subvert act, the overt acts that may be prosecutable under "sedition" laws vary from one legal code to another. Where those legal codes have a traceable history, there is also a record of the change of definition for what constituted sedition at certain points in history. This overview has served to develop a sociological definition of sedition as well, within study of persecution.

The difference between sedition and treason consists primarily in the subjective ultimate object of the violation to the public peace. Sedition does not consist of levying war against a government nor of adhering to its enemies, giving enemies aid, and giving enemies comfort. Nor does it consist, in most representative democracies, of peaceful protest against a government, nor of attempting to change the government by democratic means (such as direct democracy or constitutional convention).
"

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jaysit
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RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:29 pm

First of all, all this talk about Air conditioning and fancy middle eastern nouvelle cooking is a lot of nonsense. Conditions for the prisoners at Gitmo were only radically improved over the past 2 months after all the dirt surrounding the appalling conditions was dug up. Of course, in an attempt at extreme propaganda, the Administration is now apparently going over the top to deflect criticisms of earlier atrocities.

Second, in spite of all the crap that we now hear on such propagandist trash news sources as the Washington Times about these so-called luxurious conditions, there is no doubt that prisoners were held in appalling conditions and tortured. I prefer to believe the International Red Cross, independent military and FBI observers than the propagandist machine of the White House and all its collective apologists who have lurched from one atrocious lie to the next.

Lastly, as -437B succinctly puts it, infinite detention without any recourse for a fair trial is the central feature of the gulag, and a central tenet of what despicable regimes like the USSR, Burma, China, Ethiopia's Mengistu do.

Dick Durbin's only crime here is hyperbole; the crimes of this administration - as committed to the integrity of the nation, to its international reputation as a democratic bastion, to the very Constitution itself - have turned us into nothing more than another Banana Republic with a bunch of thugs and yes-men at the helm.

Bring these prisoners to trial. If they are found guilty, convict them. If not, set them free. The promise of a fair trial is a far more convincing tenet of a great nation than propaganda about prisoners living in ostensible luxury.

Then we can get on to the real business of putting this administration to trial in the next election.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:39 pm

Frankly I don't think he apologized.

An apology in my mind is saying

I am sorry for what I said, I was wrong.

not:

I am sorry I upset you with what I said.

Totally different.

And to even allude to Gitmo being similar to anything the Nazis, or Soviets did is arrogant and a blatant display of historical ignorance.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
TPASXM787
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:31 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:51 pm

I don't even know where to start here. Not even sure that I want to.

Some of the treatment has been bad. That however is by a few bad apples ruining the whole bunch. The comparisons to a Gulag or Nazi camp are ridiculous. Innocent people are not being rounded up and baked by thousands. The people who are there are not innocent civilians, they took up arms against the US, and now they are at Gitmo. It's not like the military went through Baghdad and just picked up random people and herded them into the camp.

I do respect Durbin for apologizing. He should. He's just another example of a politician opening his mouth without thinking. Or, maybe he was thinking. The mud slinging needs to stop, especially when it is out of nothing but hate.
This is the Last Stop.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 36):
The mud slinging needs to stop, especially when it is out of nothing but hate.

I think the mud slinging doesn't need to stop, they just need to get better about it... Most of these morons make theCoz look like a professional insult assassin.
This space intentionally left blank
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18199
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
You are once again showing ignorant racism here.

You have no clue what "racism" means.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:30 am

Why did Senator Durbin bother apologizing?
The right-wing dip$h!ts aren't going to forgive him no matter how much apologizes.
To say that Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia and Stalin's Gulags were worse isn't saying much. After all, we are supposed to be a beakon of freedom. Or is that not true?
Bring back the Concorde
 
texan
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:34 am

Unfortunately there has been a rash of politicians comparing people or events in Congress to Hitler or the Nazis. Sen. Byrd (D-WV) used a Hitler reference when referring to the Republican majority. Sen. Santorum (R-PA) chastised him for the reference, but then, less than 6 weeks later, compared the Democratic attempt to filibuster the judicial nominees to Hitler and the Nazi Party. Neither one apologized that I am aware of. Sen. Durbin, as discussed here, compared Gitmo interrogators to Nazis. Pat Buchanan compared the Democrats to Nazis on MSNBC about a week ago.

Unfortunately all of these people have had poor word choice. I am glad Senator Durbin apologized, and would hope the others would do the same.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
slider
Posts: 7617
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 36):
I do respect Durbin for apologizing.

Everyone follow the bouncing ball here:

HE DIDN'T APOLOGIZE!!!

He apologized if anyone's feelings were hurt, he didn't apologize for the statements themselves. Read it carefully!

It's a wussy move perpetrated by a wussy Senator who probably got inundated by calls from his Illinois constituents, especially those with family in the military.

Durbin is exactly what's WRONG with America. Can't even stand up as a man and take his medicine the way he should. And notice the collegiality on the part of the Republicans in accepting that crapola. Lott didn't get off so easy, and after all, that was just a "misunderstanding" wasn't it?

Both parties are lost. This is more fodder for the fire.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 41):
And notice the collegiality on the part of the Republicans in accepting that crapola.

LOL.
Right.

They've only been beating this issue to death ever since Durbin opened his big mouth -- Pretty much anything to deflect attention from the real issue which is the suspension of justice in this ad hoc banana republic system.

And, of course, to divert attention from our lame duck President who's losing public support daily on the war issue.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 25):
I see tremendous similarities between what the US is doing now and what history has taught me that Nazi Germany did in the 1930s and 1940s.

Using the word "Nazi" so easily is what upsets a lot of people. Among them, the victims of the Nazi regime. Just ask any Jewish organization about what they think of politicians happily using this word. We may be losing the historical reference of what Nazism was and the crimes Nazis committed. Nothing this administration has done deserves the analogy with Nazism.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 25):
Guantanamo Bay is essentially a concentration camp for so-called undesirables that the state wishes to be held without due process.

Nonetheless, you have a good point here. It bothers me that those suspected terrorists are deprived of due process in a court of justice. Not because of them, since I couldn't care less about a bunch of killers like them. But because this is setting a precedent that could harm us later. If Gitmo is an American base, I'm sure the Administration could find a form to prosecute them without bringing them to American soil.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Turtle
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:54 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Why did Senator Durbin bother apologizing?
The right-wing dip$h!ts aren't going to forgive him no matter how much apologizes.

...and they shouldn't forgive him. As a matter of fact, he didn't apologise for what he said. He apologised for those he offended by what he said. Kind of like a sorry wink-wink.

If things were turned around, you'd have the left-wing dip$h!ts playing the same game.

If this was Clinton's war, Durbin would be praising him for cleaning up the mess in Iraq and standing up to those terrorists. If a republican said what Durbin said, the media would be in such a frenzy and would not let up until he was run out of office similiar to the fate of Trent Lot.

Durbin compared Gitmo to the death camps of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc...I'd hate to be the families of those soldiers station at gitmo and the solders themselves. Trent Lot make an off-color racist joke at a birthday party. I'd be upset but, I would hate to be person of that race he insulted.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 43):
It bothers me that those suspected terrorists are deprived of due process in a court of justice. Not because of them, since I couldn't care less about a bunch of killers like them. But because this is setting a precedent that could harm us later

First you call them "suspected" terrorists.
Then you call them a "bunch of killers." What is it? Where is the judicial process between a suspect and a convicted killer? Or is it verdict first, trial later in your concocted reality?

Quoting Turtle (Reply 44):
Durbin compared Gitmo to the death camps of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc...I'd hate to be the families of those soldiers station at gitmo and the solders themselves

Yeah, me too.
Because if our system of justice actually means anything under this administration, these people who abused their power will be sent off to the slammer for a long time to come.

Quoting Turtle (Reply 44):
If this was Clinton's war, Durbin would be praising him for cleaning up the mess in Iraq and standing up to those terrorists.

But it isn't. It's Dubyas war.
At least during Vietnam, the Dems didn't hesitate to slam LBJ for the BS he was spinning.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
slider
Posts: 7617
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:57 pm

Maybe Karl Rove should offer a Durbin-esque "apology" for saying he's sorry if anyone was offended but stand by his original comments.

Hmmmm....
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Turtle (Reply 44):
you'd have the left-wing dip$h!ts

 Confused
left-wing dip$h!ts is an oxymoron.
Look the term up in the dictionary if you don't know the meaninng of the word.  Smile

Quoting Turtle (Reply 44):
If this was Clinton's war,...

Clinton would never lie to get us in to a war. Maybe lie to protect his marriage, but that's it.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:59 am

You know with all this left v right bitching, from a Chicago perspective, something interesting should be pointed out.

I noticed that Durbin didn't apoligize until a man by the name of Richard M. Daley chewed him out in the Chicago press.

Why is Richard Daley more of a threat to Durbin than the Republican attack pack?

Simple...let me give you the man's full title:

Mayor Richard M. Daley...mayor of Chicago...the most populus city in Durbin's state (lots of constituents). A city riddled with corruption controlled by a despotic mayor who actually ran unopposed in the last election (and whose own water department was caught running drugs recently). Demilition Dick(head) is what most of A.net will remember him as. *Cough*Meigs*Cough*...the one who conveniently hyped up fears of suicide plane attacks for the sole purpose of fulfilling an item that's been on his agenda for years.

A man who has touchy-feely close relations with Governor Blagojavich and who is porbably very chummy with Illinois Junior Senator Barrack Obama.

A man who can't even pronounce Guantanamo, rips on Durbin, and Durbin apologizes.

The Repubs could rip on Durbin all they want...but they are no match for the power Daley can wield against Illinois politicians.

A Chicago perspective...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
left-wing dip$h!ts is an oxymoron.

Are you the B757300 of the left? Sorry, but anyone who only sees the slant of one wing and thinks that their wing is somehow morally superior and "correct" is just a blind dipshit. left-wing dipshits and right-wing dipshits are spot on.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
Clinton would never lie to get us in to a war. Maybe lie to protect his marriage, but that's it.

No, he only bombed Serbia to cover the marriage issues and blew up a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan. Get over it, the Repubs don't have much to defend, but quit rallying behind a man whose ethical judgment and diet was so poor he'll probably die before Carter or Ford.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
slider
Posts: 7617
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Sen. Durbin Tearfully Apologizes

Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 48):
The Repubs could rip on Durbin all they want...but they are no match for the power Daley can wield against Illinois politicians.

You got that right.

Daleyville dominates state politics no matter what. On a related note, Daley is one of the first things I thought of in light of the SCOTUS eminent domain ruling. Can you imagine what a field day Chicago's gonna have with that?

Durbin's a weenie.

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