Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6649
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
Rafsanjani is the number one theocrat in the country (despite what people may say about Khamnei) and was Khomeni's hand picked successor upon his death in 1989. You wonder why he lost?

Hrrmmmmm, So do you mean Khameni or Khatami?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Al Khomeni, You want to learn his name first? I certainly know the name of one of the worst things ever to happen to Iran. Besides, the biggest holiday in Iran is Nowruz, the Iranian New Year

Think twice before you make a smart-ass comment like that again.

[Edited 2005-06-30 21:33:57]
Made from jets!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 51):
Hrrmmmmm, So do you mean Khemeni or Khatami?

Well, I have no idea who Khemeni is. I do know who Khamnei is and he is less powerful than Rafsanjani. Khatami had nothing to do with it

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 51):
Think twice before you make a smart-ass comment like that again.

The dude's name is not Al and he did not celebrate Christmas. Simple as that

Quoting DL021 (Reply 50):
was the day they invented crepes. With sugar and butter.

I prefer Crepes au Fraise

Quoting DL021 (Reply 50):
They are Inuits, you racially insensitive heathen.

I am not in Canada

Quoting DL021 (Reply 50):
the percentage of poor in Iran is significantly greater, both in numbers and degree of poverty, than in the US...

Of course it is. Still, it is a damn sight better than many other countries and let me not go into the reasons there are so many poor in Iran
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:29 am

BTW, Ian, Eskimos are made up of two main groups, the Inuits and the Yupiks
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 50):
What people who are calling them McJobs are really saying is that they want their old $70k per year jobs back where they were doing some nebulous function at a software company designing websites for other startups, or doing the accounting for the money that was flowing in through investments and not actual revenues from sales.

When you're hired for a job, you do what you're told to do. What did you expect people to say? That their jobs were fundamentally useless? Would you expect real estate analysts to say the same in 4 years if and when the real estate bubble that's holding the economy together with scotch tape right now bursts? Gimme a break. If we're to use whatever standard your applying for jobs, then 90% of jobs are basically useless.

And while the so-called recession Bush inherited was basically just the economy correcting itself from the dot-com boom, the economy really hasn't been all that awful for the past 5 years contrary to what the left says. But neither has job recovery been good as Bush's cheerleaders state. We have a sluggish economy, but at least it aint dead yet.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 50):
Wrong again...the greatest day in French history...other than 22 April 1935, was the day they invented crepes. With sugar and butter.

You mean its not the day the French discovered showers?  Smile

Lets get back to the nutty Mullahs and this nasty little thug they've anointed to the throne.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6649
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
The dude's name is not Al

But yours is

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
and he did not celebrate Christmas. Simple as that

Noooooo, really?
Made from jets!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 53):
You mean its not the day the French discovered showers?

They're still not quite there yet. They're still haven't figured out why when you install the shower head pointing directly at the door opening/curtain you end up with a huge puddle in the bathroom.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 46):
Post-revolutionary France after 1815 was undoubtedly better than the rapacious mess under Louis XVI, and the reign of terror between 1795-1815.

I should have been more specific in that the leadership that is installed immediately following the toppling of the government during a revolution is more often than not worse than what was toppoled. The Reign of Terror was worse than Louis XVI, as one would guess from the name.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 46):
Shall we keep going?

Go ahead, I didn't say the US was definitely the only instance but the majority of revolutions, especially pre-1900 have turned out worse, rather than better for the masses.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 46):
Your cute little graph indicates that the economy was in the shits between 1975-1979

The rest of the cute little story...

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1522098

"What has gone wrong with the economy? Not recent macroeconomic policy, which received a generally favourable report from the IMF last September, despite 17% inflation and a growing fiscal deficit. Whatever the improvement, though, it has not made up for the upheavals of the revolution, years of subsequent mismanagement born of dogma and incompetence, the long, destructive war with Iraq and the Khomeini-inspired population explosion."

" it hopes to produce 5m b/d by 2005, but, at least according to the consultancy Atieh Bahar, it is unlikely to succeed. Even if it does, it will still be well behind the 6m b/d pumped in the mid-1970s.
"

"15% of the population subsist below the poverty line, and average living standards are no higher than 20 years ago"
I don't take responsibility at all
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:05 am

No surprise that N1120A is trying to make Iran sound like a paradise and trying to appease their actions...I don't see him running back to get his JD and PhD there. It sickens me when people take advantage of America, while living here, and preach views of hatred against our country.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 54):
But yours is

Not if you want me to answer

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 57):
It sickens me when people take advantage of America, while living here, and preach views of hatred against our country.

I am not preaching views of hatred against MY country. I am being critical of a government that is breaking all of the laws I hold dear

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 57):
I don't see him running back to get his JD and PhD there.

Well, given that you also know absolutely nothing about me, I will simply start by saying I am not into forced military service and though I speak 3 languages, Farsi is not one of them

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 57):
No surprise that N1120A is trying to make Iran sound like a paradise and trying to appease their actions...

No surprise RJpieces has no idea what he is talking about and trying to make me sound like a supporter of a regime I want to go away.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
slider
Posts: 7637
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
Dude, given my degree of respect for Ian, you should probably stay the hell out of any conversation we have.

Why- are you going to call your buddy Ahmadinejad on me?  Smile

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 48):
Let's face one fact though - the "elections" in Iran were a farce.

Indeed- no question there.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Again, since you actually know nothing about him, how the hell can you make that comment.

Hmmm...let me think. Resume includes assault of a US Embassy, hostage taking, and inciting the masses to hate the Great Satan. Yeah, seems like quite a guy. Since you dig him so much, why not leave and take up with him outright?
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
A criminal, murderous, crazy fanatic at the head of the Iranian government???

Maverick, maybe in your country people are criminal as soon as somebody blames them. In other countries a court gives a judgement, not a bunch of people like in mediaeval times.
And who is talking about the hostages in Guantanamo? Replace Iranian with "US American" and it's getting interested.

[Edited 2005-06-30 23:57:30]

[Edited 2005-06-30 23:58:22]
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 59):
Resume includes assault of a US Embassy, hostage taking, and inciting the masses to hate the Great Satan. Yeah, seems like quite a guy.

Well, first, it has not been confirmed that it was him in the picture. Second, you don't want to start comparing the Iranian Revolution to things the US has done
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dtwclipper
Topic Author
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
In the name of revolution? Disrupting commerce is also a crime, yet I completely agree with what was done at the Boston Tea Party. The US was an occupying power with a puppet dictator in a sovereign nation where the people rose up to overthrow that regime. Is that so difficult to understand?

Please don't patronize me when you are making such an absurd historical comparison.

The Boston Tea Party was a one time event, not approved by the government in power.

Breaking into a foreign embassy, brutalizing, and holding hostages is an international crime.

Also, let's put the Shah into perspective. We were in the middle of the cold war, and needed a stable government in Persia. Would you have rather have had the USSR taken over the Persian Gulf? Ah, then there would have been a lot of freedom.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:01 am

N1120A,

By seemingly being the first person in this whole thread to realize nothing has been confirmed yet, welcome to my respected users list. However, I can't wait to hear all the flack I'll get from others...eh, whatever.
 
dtwclipper
Topic Author
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 63):
N1120A,

By seemingly being the first person in this whole thread to realize nothing has been confirmed yet, welcome to my respected users list. However, I can't wait to hear all the flack I'll get from others...eh, whatever.

Maybe you should have read the fourth reply...or better yet read the source material!

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 4):
Not everyone agrees. Former hostage and retired Air Force Col. Thomas E. Schaefer said he doesn't recognize Ahmadinejad, by face or name, as one of his captors.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:05 am

You're right, my apologies.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
Nice facts that you twist to your "own" reality.

No fact-twisting here, only History, a History you apparently prefer to ignore.

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
As I recall, Iran never invaded any country or gassed its own people with chemical weapons.

One doesn't need to invade other countries (..) or have to gass one's own people to get a "ruthless dictator qualification.

"dictator [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 MAINLY DISAPPROVING a leader who has complete power in a country and has not been elected by the people
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=21551&dict=CALD

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
That said, now we have a radical Islamic regime that exports terrorism (Hezbolah for example) and is now on the verge of a nuclear program. I wonder, that's better in your eyes?

No, it is not better (and I don't recall stating that it is better).

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
Your view of history is a tad bit one sided. (Yet again)

Feel free to fill me in on the other side of Iranian history, pressumably yours.

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
Pre 1979 Iran. Post 1979 Iran. What is worse?

What is worse for whom?

Somehow you (and many others for that matter) completely fail to see that stating that the Shah was a brutal dictator does NOT mean one supports the actual Iranian Regime.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
When you don't place it in context it sounds fantastic, but it's not the case. Growth has been decent, but it's been from a rock bottom small base due to the revolution.

Your graph is very nice but it ommits two key events in recent Iranian history: the fact that when business was booming, Iran was ruled by a dictator plus the 8 year war with Iraq.

Here's a modified graph which puts things into perspective:



Quoting 787 (Reply 36):
Oh, so it's your interpretation of the Constitution? I see. Well, actually I don't see what laws are violated and I suspect neither do you actually since you have not offered any laws that were "violated".

Kid, why the heck do you think these people are held in Guantanamo? THINK, will you, before saying stupidities!

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 45):
Saddam violated it,

No WMD's whatsoever found, yet Saddam violated 1441! Please explain!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 60):
Maverick, maybe in your country people are criminal as soon as somebody blames them.

I haven't condemned him, I just said I wouldn't be shocked given the Iranian government's history.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 60):
And who is talking about the hostages in Guantanamo

Not I, not anyone else in this thread.

[Edited 2005-07-01 00:10:55]
I don't take responsibility at all
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:10 am

Well, given that you also know absolutely nothing about me, I will simply start by saying I am not into forced military service and though I speak 3 languages, Farsi is not one of them

And you know absolutely nothing about me....That doesn't stop you from going off about how I'm everything you hate about America, blah blah, does it?

No surprise RJpieces has no idea what he is talking about and trying to make me sound like a supporter of a regime I want to go away.

I don't particularly care whether you are a supporter or not....I do care that you are a terrorist appeaser, be it Iranians or others in the Middle East.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:28 am

Whatever happened to discussing whether or not the next Iranian leader was one of the hostage takers?

This thread is very sad and shows the poor quality of what the non av forum has become.


Bravo.
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 57):
No surprise that N1120A is trying to make Iran sound like a paradise and trying to appease their actions.

Have you really read what he wrote? Apparently not...  Yeah sure

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 57):
It sickens me when people take advantage of America, while living here, and preach views of hatred against our country.

And it sickens me when right-wingers call everything "hate against America" which is meant as simple criticism...  embarrassed 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
No surprise RJpieces has no idea what he is talking about and trying to make me sound like a supporter of a regime I want to go away.

Indeed, that's not surprising at all...  vomit 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 68):

I don't particularly care whether you are a supporter or not....I do care that you are a terrorist appeaser, be it Iranians or others in the Middle East.

Ignorance - master example. Applause!  hyper 


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
787
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 11:57 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 66):
Feel free to fill me in on the other side of Iranian history, pressumably yours.

Quoting 787 (Reply 15):
Pre 1979 Iran. Post 1979 Iran. What is worse?

And you said, "What is worse for whom?"

You know, if you can't determine what is worse regardless of whom, that's a pretty bold commentary of the individual that you are.

Pity.

Thank you very much.
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 53):
We have a sluggish economy, but at least it aint dead yet.

Understatement of the year! The fed couldn't cut interest rates further and the economy still did not jump start. Sluggish is a totally incorrect word to use. And with the lost tax revenue now there is no end in sight. Prepare because the worst is coming
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:02 am

So, how should the United States perceive and treat Iran?
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:04 am

Since they have oil Aerobalance, treat them like Gods children like we do the Saudis
 
VH-KCT*
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 4:01 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 65):
You're right, my apologies.

No apologies necessary, how about some respect?  silly 
I am The Stig
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:26 am

Haha, fair enough VH-KCT, I appreciate your humor
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 17):
Iran gaining nuclear weapons

-
They according to their official statements are intending to use nuclear energy for civil infrastructural projects. The official name of that country has never included the term "revolutionary". And that the new president is his younger days may have participated in what in those days had the clear support of their national leadership is possible and hardly a real surprise, but for sure no reason for war !�
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:16 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 24):
Holding American Citizens hostage for 444 days whilst breaking into an Embassy,

-
If so, not exactly a nice gesture, true, but it was an action supported by the national leadership, and so hardly such a grave crime as you declare it to be. It was a political protest action. To declare the participants to be "criminals" is a clear exaggeration.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
Growth has been decent

-
you have to take TWO factors into account. First is that the revolution of 1979 drove out much of the economic, scientific and cultural elite (secularist people) and also a good part of the rich upper-class and that those who got into power lacked actual experience . Second that Iran was attacked by Iraq and had to fight a bitter bloody and destructive war against the armed forces of Saddam Hussein who were heavily supported by the USA throughout the 80ies. So that the return to a positive development in the 90ies was perfectly remarkable.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:40 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 68):
a terrorist appeaser

-
Isn't this just a slogan !� And do you describe that conservative reactionary restrictive regime in Tehran as "terrorists" ? and in which way did he "appease" whomever YOU regard as terrorists ?
-
while I strongly dislike such fundamentalists as those in power in Tehran, I am shocked by the extent of apparent hate and aggressiveness quite obvious and visible with many US-Americans.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
Breaking into a foreign embassy, brutalizing, and holding hostages is an international crime.

When you consider the foreign embassy the base of power for a brutal dictator that was foisted upon you, then it becomes part of a revolution

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
The Boston Tea Party was a one time event, not approved by the government in power.

Yes, as were the battles of the American Revolution. By 1979, it was impossible to mount an army together to take over a country that had the military strength and backing Iran had. Instead, the people of Iran rose up and forced leaders out en masse

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
Please don't patronize me when you are making such an absurd historical comparison.

I am glad you have become such an expert on the absurd

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
We were in the middle of the cold war, and needed a stable government in Persia.

Persia? They changed that name a long time ago and given Iran's ethnic diversity (>50% Persian) it was not a bad idea. Also, there was a stable government in Iran. It was the US and UK that overthrew that stable government for financial gain.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
Would you have rather have had the USSR taken over the Persian Gulf? Ah, then there would have been a lot of freedom.

You have got to be kidding me. The people of Iran never sided the the USSR, and neither did their governments. The business orientated mentality of the Iranian people would have never allowed that.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 62):
Also, let's put the Shah into perspective.

Yeah, into the perspective as a brutal, repressive dictator that the United States put in power in place of a legitimate, pro-US, democratically elected government that was able to balance the Iranian budget sans petrol and then brought Iran's oil back into Iranian hands.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 68):
And you know absolutely nothing about me....That doesn't stop you from going off about how I'm everything you hate about America

Well, the proof is in the pudding. BTW, I don't hate anyone, that is your end

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 68):
I don't particularly care whether you are a supporter or not....I do care that you are a terrorist appeaser, be it Iranians or others in the Middle East.

I don't appease terrorist ever. The Iranian Revolution was not an act of terrorism unless you also consider the American and French Revolutions acts of terrorism. Then again, you appease terrorism all the time.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 78):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 24):
Holding American Citizens hostage for 444 days whilst breaking into an Embassy,

-
If so, not exactly a nice gesture, true, but it was an action supported by the national leadership, and so hardly such a grave crime as you declare it to be. It was a political protest action. To declare the participants to be "criminals" is a clear exaggeration.

Whoa...It was an act of terrorism...not some campus prank or a sit-in executed by kids to make a point. You need to re-examine this or your own definitions of terrorism.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 80):
I am shocked by the extent of apparent hate and aggressiveness quite obvious and visible with many US-Americans.

Don't be, its a reaction to seeing decades of hatred directed at us by the Iranians who started their revolution off by taking American hostages and keeping them. How would you feel after being called the Great Satan and having your flag burned at ever parade?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
When you consider the foreign embassy the base of power for a brutal dictator that was foisted upon you, then it becomes part of a revolution

Careful there....that's beginning to sound like a justification for taking hostages and keeping them. That's awfully close to terrorist support. I know you don't mean to do that, but re-read that and tell me how you think a terrorist would read that and take it? Would that help them feel justified in their actions then and support of terrorism since?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
You have got to be kidding me. The people of Iran never sided the the USSR, and neither did their governments. The business orientated mentality of the Iranian people would have never allowed that.

I think the real fear was socialism and the possibility that the Soviets would take over the Gulf from there. THe Iranian government that was elected was socialist and did nationalise the oil fields. The Soviet plan was to sieze the oil fields in the Gulf in case of war in order to starve our allies and us. Keep in mind the cold war perspective that shaded everything done between 1945 and 1993 or so.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
Yeah, into the perspective as a brutal, repressive dictator that the United States put in power in place of a legitimate, pro-US, democratically elected government that was able to balance the Iranian budget sans petrol and then brought Iran's oil back into Iranian hands.

He was all that, but the government that preceded him was not quite all that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
BTW, I don't hate anyone, that is your end

I don't think you hate either. I do think you aren't taking all the factors into consideration in your intellectual process. The more you study all sides with an open mind the more you'll see that your blacks, whites and greys will appear to shift. You don't have to be a different person to do this, it'll come as you continue to learn and grow. Remember that half of the time during the Cold War democrats were in charge either of the executive or legislative branches and all this still took place.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
I don't appease terrorist ever. The Iranian Revolution was not an act of terrorism unless you also consider the American and French Revolutions acts of terrorism.

The Iranian revolution actually had support with many Americans until the Embassy was siezed and the hostages taken....and kept with apparent Revolutionary Council approval and blessing.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
slider
Posts: 7637
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 73):
So, how should the United States perceive and treat Iran?

As a hostile regime on the verge of being nuclear. In other words, nothing's really changed since 1979.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 78):
It was a political protest action. To declare the participants to be "criminals" is a clear exaggeration.

DL hit it, but I'll just add that your statement is the biggest load of bullshit I've read here in a looooong time. Violently seizing a US Embassy--that has all the effect of being US property--and taking hostages is absolutely a blatant act of terrorism, nothing less. To make some specious claim that it was some political protest is a fucking insult to everyone who went through that ordeal, not to mention the United States as a whole, which was seemingly held hostage along with those folks for 444 days.

You insult them, you insult me, you insult this country by downplaying this as if it were a fraternity prank or political march or something.

They are criminals. They are terrorists. They have still not been brought to justice.

If there's one event in my lifetime I could go back and change it would have been Desert One. I have no doubt that had Delta Force been able to get to Teheran, we would have freed our hostages and I strongly suspect that our entire approach to the Middle East, most notably terrorism, would be drastically different.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 82):
re-examine this or your own definitions of terrorism

-
When I had to learn in early 1969 that many "Westerners" defended the Israeli terror attack against Beirut International Airport of 28th December 1968 as a "military coup" I realized that I had some problem with many folks in the West. Because THAT act of terror clearly met MY understanding of TERRORISM . While some particular things, the "excusers" than attacked as "terrorism" did NOT .
-
-
 hissyfit 
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 83):
You insult them, you insult me, you insult this country

-
-
 no 
-

I do NOT "insult" anybody by trying to put matters into perspectives. Your outburst of anger is just what the French call "les emotions fortes" but is neither realistic nor objective. I do NOT support take-overs of diplomatic missions at any time, be it by "guards", "troops" or outright criminals and terrorists, but it in the past happened at times that such protest actions turned into something bad. I do NOT see those locally in action as terrorists, I however blame Ayatollah Khomeiny for directly ordering (it WAS ordering) this attack.
-
Another aspect is your "marching through to Tehran". I quite well remember that the USA tried to free their embassy by a military attack which became a definite military disaster. It did NOT look as if the "marching through" had been an option at all. And later President Reagan secretly negotiated (through that Lt North) with the Khomeiny folks to find a way out.
-
-
 
slider
Posts: 7637
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 85):
I do NOT "insult" anybody by trying to put matters into perspectives.

Well, your perspective is grossly inaccurate if you claim these terrorist hostage-takers were somehow political protesters.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 85):
Another aspect is your "marching through to Tehran". I quite well remember that the USA tried to free their embassy by a military attack which became a definite military disaster. It did NOT look as if the "marching through" had been an option at all.

????? Who said anything about "marching through"? Not me....maybe you're confused with someone else's post. I am well-versed on the hostage rescue mission, the formation of Delta, and Operation Eagle Claw which was set to rescue the hostages. I never said anything about "marching through" to Teheran whatsoever...check your facts please.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6649
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 84):
When I had to learn in early 1969 that many "Westerners" defended the Israeli terror attack against Beirut International Airport of 28th December 1968 as a "military coup". I realized that I had some problem with many folks in the West. Because THAT act of terror clearly met MY understanding of TERRORISM . While some particular things, the "excusers" than attacked as "terrorism" did NOT .

It's the same old violin. The hate for America runs so deep, that we, as well as Israel are despised so much, that they would rather sympathise with the radical terrorists. This is the frightening reality of the ultra-libs in many parts of Europe.
Made from jets!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 87):
It's the same old violin. The hate for America runs so deep

-
Amazing. You, without considering very long, have just joined the terrorism excusers camp !�!�!� And by whatever opinion you disagree with you perceive the "hate for America" . But as soon as an act of terror suits you, you no longer care.
 
SSTjumbo
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 3:29 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:40 am

This, my dear friends, is a hilarious thread.


Two or three people above me have said the same thing, where is the topic at hand? Is this or is this not the guy who in part held the hostages captive 25 years ago? Instead, we're trying to decide whether Bush or Ahmadinejad is the oil loving conquistador theocrat. Folks, in the context of this thread, I don't give a $#!+ who's what, who's metaphorically who, or who raped who's mother when no one was watching. I'd like to know if indeed these former hostages are correct, that's why I clicked on this link, and no one even cares!


Anyways, nobody took pictures of these raddy yahoos 25 years ago did they?
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6649
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 88):
have just joined the terrorism excusers camp

The pot to the kettle. You're the one who is defending the rebel Shiite militias at the Beirut International Airport. The Israeli's were well within their rights to avenge the hijacking of one their airliners. Here's a brief synopsis of the Christmas raid and the incident that led up to it.

12/26/68
Greece: Gunfire attack on El Al airliner in Athens. 1 killed, 1 wounded. In response, Israeli commandos destroyed 14 Lebanese aircraft at Beirut International Airport. ASN, 12/28/68. 2 Palestinian hijackers freed after 7/22/70 attack (below).
Made from jets!
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 71):
You know, if you can't determine what is worse regardless of whom, that's a pretty bold commentary of the individual that you are.

You boldy compared pre 1979 Iran with post 1979 Iran asking a very generalized question of what was worse. All I have done is seek a bit more perspective to be able to answer that question. Not supprisingly, you completely fail to do so.

Stating I don't like Pepsi Cola doesn't mean I love Coca Cola. The same principle can be applied to the discussion at hand. Stating one doesn't like the former regime by the Shah doesn't mean one fully supports the actual regime in Iran today. That might come as a suprise to you but nothing in this world is as Black or White as you apparently believe. The sooner you learn this little fact about life, the sooner you will improve your skills of conducting basic discussions.

Now let's go back to our interesting discussion: care to indicate to me now to whom you believe pre 1979 Iran was better?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 82):
Don't be, its a reaction to seeing decades of hatred directed at us by the Iranians who started their revolution off by taking American hostages and keeping them. How would you feel after being called the Great Satan and having your flag burned at ever parade?

Over the past couple of years in which I've actively participated in discussions at this board regarding US politics (ie, during the last US election campaign), more than one once I've received criticism from US citizens stating that I, as a foreigner, have no right whatsoever to 'intervene' in their election-process, even when it is at such a small scale.

You might wonder what this has got to do with this topic, but just imagine if this 'foreign interference' in the US's sovereign political processes would have been taken some considerable steps further: a coup actively sponsored by two other nations (let's say France and Germany) to overthrow your democratically elected President & the installment of a ruthless dictator. Imagine these two nations would have trained and equipped a new Secret Police which would torture any American oppossing the new regime by means of electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles and the extraction of teeth and nails. And imagine this brutal regime would last for decades, decades during which you would not be able to critisize your imposed dictator, decades during which very few would benefit from your country's natural resources and decades during which anyone who's brave enough to stand up to this dictator is tortured and killed. Now imagine that after the people of your nation finally succeed in toppling this ruthless regime, this dictator is refused to be turned over for trial by France, one of the two nations which put him in power in the first place, decades ago. What would you do next time you pass by France's Embassy in Washington DC?

Don't you think you'd hate that country that assisted that Dictator who oppressed you for decades and took away your freedom and systematically tortured and killed your family? I certainly would!

The Iranian Revolution did not start the "Beginning of a New Era" but rather marked the "End of a Rutheless Dictatorial Regime". That's the context in which the Iranian Hostage Crisis took place: people were fed up with a brutal dictator put in place and supported by Western Nations in exchange for their oil. The Iranian people revolutionized against their dictator. One can argue whether their new political system is much better then the former. What is clear though is that the Iranian Revolution was carried out by the people of Iran and not by a powerfull Western nation with an interest for a natural resource of that country.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iran/savak/
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting SSTjumbo (Reply 89):
no one even cares

-
because no one KNOWS !¨ some people who with horror remember a young bearded man in Tehran, and now see a similarily looking middle-aged man becoming president in Tehran, and now believe that it must be the one. and on the other side the new president who cannot remember to have been at that place in those times and refuses to have been one of the captors.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 90):
avenge the hijacking of one their airliners

that hijacking was NOT caused by the Republic of Lebanon, was NOT caused by MEA Middle East Airlines and was NOT caused by TMA Trans Mediterranean Airlines or LIA Lebanese International Airlines. Simply doing acts of terrorism to "avenge" something else and unrelated WAS and IS terrorism. And YOU defend terrorism in THIS case !¨
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 90):
You're the one who is defending the rebel Shiite militias at the Beirut International Airport

-
Beirut International Airport was NOT "at" Beirut International Airport and did NOT control either airport or any of the airlines. Mreije across the runway had a Shi'ite militia presence, but THAT has nothing at all to do with Lebanese civil aviation.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 84):
When I had to learn in early 1969 that many "Westerners" defended the Israeli terror attack against Beirut International Airport of 28th December 1968 as a "military coup" I realized that I had some problem with many folks in the West. Because THAT act of terror clearly met MY understanding of TERRORISM . While some particular things, the "excusers" than attacked as "terrorism" did NOT .

Well, first off I don't know who called it a military coup, but that might be a translation difficulty. I am assuming English is not your first language, and it is certainly better than my Arabic or Farsi so please take no insult at that. The Israeli action was in response to terrorist acts levied against it with the open support and assistance of Arab neighbors of Israel who had been trying to kill Israel for decades.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 85):
And later President Reagan secretly negotiated (through that Lt North) with the Khomeiny folks to find a way out.

President Reagan, nor his team, negotiated for the release of the hostages of Teheran. They worked out a deal for the release of the hostages taken in Lebanon and Beirut by the Hizballah during the 80s. These negotiations were done in conjuction with Israel who actually sold the weapons to Iran and delivered them. There is a documented instance where the escort aircraft for the Israelis handed off to the Americans who shepherded the shipments over to Iran where an Israeli pilot spoke with an Iranian pilot who remembered him from an American pilot school they both attended years earlier.

The deal to release the Lebanon hostages was done just in the nick of time to prevent a US invasion of Lebanon in the form of a massive rescue mission that would have seen the entire Bekaa Valley laid to waste with bombing and US airborne insertions to seize the airport, the roads to the airport, radar and missile installations, and the hostages themselves.

Now, ask yourself, what would you have rather seen? Was President Reagan a warmonger or a man who preferred peace?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 88):
!�!�!�

I don't read Arabic, and I am sure you are using an Arabic character keyboard, so please try to keep your comments in the agreed upon English, or provide an accurate translation. Thanks.

Quoting SSTjumbo (Reply 89):
Is this or is this not the guy who in part held the hostages captive 25 years ago?

That is something we don't know yet. Two independent analysis consultants hired by networks have so far been inconclusive with the photos available to the public, but they are at different angles and resolutions....and this ain't like TV where they can use the computer on that show with Tiffani Cox and Sonny Corleone.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 90):
12/26/68
Greece: Gunfire attack on El Al airliner in Athens. 1 killed, 1 wounded. In response, Israeli commandos destroyed 14 Lebanese aircraft at Beirut International Airport. ASN, 12/28/68. 2 Palestinian hijackers freed after 7/22/70 attack (below).

THere it is. Thanks.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 91):
decades during which you would not be able to critisize your imposed dictator, decades during which very few would benefit from your country's natural resources and decades during which anyone who's brave enough to stand up to this dictator is tortured and killed.

You offer some good points....but I think what we are asking is will we tolerate terrorism....regardless of the motivations? The way forward is not to perpetuate the sins of the past.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 92):
some people who with horror remember a young bearded man in Tehran, and now see a similarily looking middle-aged man becoming president in Tehran, and now believe that it must be the one

This is a valid point. We ought to wait and see all the evidence available. I'm not discounting the hostages who say this is the case, but I think we need more evidence presented to us.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 92):
on the other side the new president who cannot remember to have been at that place in those times and refuses to have been one of the captors.

That's an evasion that will not pass. He needs to either admit it or show what he was doing there. He was definitely a "student" leader and had connections to the Mullahs who formed the council and interim government.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 93):
Simply doing acts of terrorism to "avenge" something else and unrelated WAS and IS terrorism.

Yep....and tell me what the taking of the embassy was if it was not what you just described.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
787
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 11:57 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 91):
The sooner you learn this little fact about life, the sooner you will improve your skills of conducting basic discussions.

Discussion? I thought it was pure propaganda on your part. It usually is in your wavering leftist I hate America rhetoric.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 91):
One can argue whether their new political system is much better then the former.

Argue? Before 1979 Iran's bad doings were all internal. Now it's across the region in the form of terrorism and oppression of basic human rights. Just ask some Iranians who have left the country. Before Iran had fairly good relations with a great deal of countries. Now look at it.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 91):
What would you do next time you pass by France's Embassy in Washington DC?

I would certainly not storm it with guns and take hostages and hold them for 444 days and thumb my nose to the rest of the diplomatic world and its countries sovereign territory. Please schonerama we know that you hate the U.S. and that you love to fan the flames. It's obvious to me and to many here. Revolution to you is good no matter what the outcome. Purely for the sake of "Viva revolution". What a radical you are. Just like the Iranian government today. Good company for you perhaps!

Thank you very much!
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 82):
THe Iranian government that was elected was socialist and did nationalise the oil fields.

It was not a socialist government. It was a social democratic government along the lines of those in Scandinavia. I don't see us overthrowing those regimes. The reason for nationalisation of the oil fields was the horrible deal foisted upon Iran by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company

Quoting DL021 (Reply 82):
Keep in mind the cold war perspective that shaded everything done between 1945 and 1993 or so.

That does not make 1953 and what Eisenhower did right.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 82):
Remember that half of the time during the Cold War democrats were in charge either of the executive or legislative branches and all this still took place.

Eisenhower was responsible for 1953.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N1120A
Posts: 26607
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:39 am

BTW, according to Ian (DL021) who I consider a friend I am a hedonistic
lover-of-tall-blond-big-boobed-girls law student, in case anyone was doubting.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Ex-Hostages Say Iran Leader Was A Captor

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 97):
It was not a socialist government. It was a social democratic government along the lines of those in Scandinavia

Dude...I think that means it was a socialist government intent on nationalising everything. Scandinavian socialism mixed with feudal tribalism and a bit of urban Persian. (kinda rhymes, now, if you'll be so kind to acknowledge that I'm a poet even if you didn't know it.  Wink )

Quoting N1120A (Reply 97):
That does not make 1953 and what Eisenhower did right

Lesser of two evils I'd say. Sorry. I sincerely regret that the administration considered that necessary.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 97):
Eisenhower was responsible for 1953

You could also say that Stalin was responsible for 1953 also. We had other stuff frying right them and could not contemplate a loose cannon on the Soviet border with the richest oil territory in the world. Harsh but true....considering the times and the experiences of the men in charge at the time.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 98):
BTW, according to Ian (DL021) who I consider a friend I am a hedonistic
lover-of-tall-blond-big-boobed-girls law student, in case anyone was doubting

Thass a fact, Jack!
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vhqpa and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos