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aviationmaster
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:38 am

"if someone's going to die I would rather it was military personal on both sides rather than civilians.

Kill off as much military personal as you want I don't care, that's what they are for their job is to fight wars, their paid to do it, they are mentally prepared to die"

Easier said than done. You know exactly that that is virtually impossible will very likely not happen.

Wach auf...
 
Gary2880
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 150):
You know exactly that that is virtually impossible will very likely not happen.

unfortunately true yes, but its how I would like it to be/should be. Guess I'm just an old fashioned idealist at heart
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 150):
they are mentally prepared to die

What sort of hogwash is this?

I spent a lot of time in a uniform and I was/am NEVER/NOT mentally prepared to die.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gary2880
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:02 am

Maybe so but you must know that its a possibility in a war zone and you would have to prepare yourself for such a possibility?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:08 am

Getting killed is a possibility sitting on the crapper when you look at the big scheme of things . . .

I do however, understand your intent. We prepare for getting killed . . . Last Wills and Testaments, Powers of Attorney, etc . . . we understand getting killed could occur . . . I don't believe, however, if you talk to any A-Netter that is/was military - US or otherwise - they are "prepared to die". That is defeatest at best and endangers yourself and those around you.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:14 am

Falcon I urge you to begin your threads with "warning if you dont agree withmy opinion youll be flamed, mocked or worse"

I have read all the thread (even with the childish treaths etc and I wonder what would be the point of view of Japanesse Aneters on this one....I guess different but pitty we dont have even one reply....

Quoting Cairo (Reply 31):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
You start a war, Cairo, you take a combatant's chances, and the inherent risks that go with it. They warred on us. We fought back, and won. You don't like the way we won, but that's too bad. The deaths at H and N, while tragic, probably saved a lot more lives, and ended a world war.

Put that in, within all your criticisms. Again, civilians die in war. Deal with it.

Your logic is certainly consistent, but are you consistent enough to let your enemies use your own logic?


Cairo

Cairo I agree with you on this one because the philosophy behind this one is "there are no rules in war, so anything goes, even if we are crazy, wrong or both"
That is one of the reasons why The US and the USSR built more than 15 000 nuclear weapons. They knew that using one bomb was bad, but were prepared to go to a nuclear holocaust just to preserve ther "right" views.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 34):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
History won't change no matter how many times it's discussed . . .

Agreed, John, but the lessons we humans learn can change. Another problem is: we might learn our lessons, but we tend to forget the even quicker..  

sadly history has teached us nothing...

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 56):

good  thumbsup 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 57):
For ANY person, living in a free nation, whatever their political stripe, to give creedence to such utter bullcrap, is appalling



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
. The two bombs made Japan surrender, conventional attacks would not have.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 80):
And, even with their cities in ruins, Japan was content to keep fighting. Without the dropping of those bomb, there's no doubt in my mind Japan would have kept fighting, and a bloody invasion would have followed that would have made the tragic deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki look paltry in comparison.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
History and fact says we were winning, and we ultimately won-but you have the audacity to say, in 1945, when the U.S. stood as the dominant power in the world, it was losing? ROTFLMAO!!
And you want me to take you SERIOUSLY? Not when you're putting horse hockey out like that Ickey. That stuff is so outrageous that it's mind-boggling! ROTFL!!!........
................Only the naive, the bitter, the hateful, think otherwise. It was a foregone conclusion, of that I have no doubt. It would have cost a few million lives.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
ROTFL. My facts are official history of the war, which revisionist ninnies like yourself ignore. You'd rather believe ANYTHING that doesn't support the facts and the history.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 95):
Only the bitterly naive fail to see this

Falcon if you are such a perfect example of the WHOLE thruth, you know so much or the REAL history, the REAL facts, heck maybe you even have a time machine, you dont you write a Book?
Why if someone disagrees you you on anything you have to make it personal ,and the object of mock, and internet flame? If you and I had a conversation we would agree on a ton of things you have discussed here, and surely we would disagree with some details, but that would not mean Id hate you or think you are "naive or such" we just disagree with our logic and our facts...not more....

now see this...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 95):
As an example, I do not agree with my father on the use of the 2nd bomb, as simply a message to the USSR. I don't buy that one. If I simply didn't question anything, I'd agree with my father, who, btw, taught American history in high schools for 39 years. I came to my own conclusion.

Your Father thsught history for 39 years and came to a conclusion and most probably lived those years you did not AND YOU DID NOT AGREE with him on the 2 bomb ( I agree with your father COMPLETELY), that means there is no freaking way to convince YOU because:

Id would have to be someone closer to yuo than your own Father.
Id have had to be teacher for more than 39 years.
Id have to be Harry trumman Myself to tell you Exactly what it was..

My point is NO one WILL ever know the WHOLE picture, having an opinion is good but always keeping a doubtfull attitude and trying to see other posibilities, point of view might surprise you.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 99):
I'm 43, Iakobos; I've had a long connection with an interest in history, since, as I said, my dad was a history teacher. I learned a lot from him

????

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 99):
Believe what you want. I believe I'm right

see?

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 115):
If one read my posts he should have understood long time ago that I personally, and I dare to say with non-superficial knowledge after having analyzed and compared hundreds of documents, read a very few books and consulted quite a few websites) think that Truman through this particular action changed the course of history....for the better of all mankind...and I (but this is my interpretation) think he had a vision of the world not restricted to the limits of war plans on maps.

That the bombs fell, that Japanese capitulation ensued and thereby many lives spared on both sides makes no doubt of course.
But that this was REALLY the main objective, the STRATEGIC ONE, does not fit with the idea I have of Harry S. Truman....nor of Churchill.

I have no agenda. I am not trying to defend a conception gained in reading from various authors, themselves interprets, and/or based on the official version.
I have (actually I had) a genuine interest in discovering by myself what was the substance behind the literature on the specific subject three decades ago, when internet did not exist but plenty of libraries were not short on supply...and at a time the USA had a very different image in Europe.

If one does not like what I presented here or in last year's threads he is always welcome to share and discuss any genuine information that would bring some new light.

Falcon, if you got a raise of adrenaline and a subsequent good mood after posting that funny picture, I am happy for you and your entourage.
No bad feelings, I would just hope you will have a better grip on your reactions.

No follow up from me in the next days, I will be on holidays on a tiny island, free of any technology.

I see your points, I almost havent put my own thought here because most were outlined by your posts.... thumbsup 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 125):
if he had said those things about the U.S. to my face, I'd have kicked his butt.

 thumbsdown 

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 136):
I find particularly frustrating that the general rule on forums seems to be that no discussion should reach a conclusion nor even a sort of commonly accepted consensus.
Many debaters are glued to their opinion, be it right or wrong, and (almost) nobody is prepared to discuss (= to exchange). Every sensitive thread turns into a clash of the blinds and the deafs, and more than often this statuesque attitude is examplified by US members.

welcome to non-av in Anet...sadly you are 100% on the mark...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 137):
I think I'm right on in my views on this one.

......... Sad

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 143):
Excuse me, but it was the Soviet Union, and your nation-Germany, that committed the biggest crimes of the century, friend. You're going to rate the death of about 200,000 people ABOVE Stalin's purges of his military in the 30's and 40's, and the pograms of the 50's, where MILLIONS dies, and of Hitler's Final Solution, where MILLIONS died? What about Japan's crimes in China, that killed far, far more than the bombings? How dare you. That statement, in and of itself, is a crime to history, and against the bruatlity of the Soviet Union of Germany in the 30's and 40's, and against Japan in that 15 year span. To compare those to a legitimate attack on a nation that had started a war against us, is repugnant; it's disgusting; it's a LIE.

do you remember my post on the Olympics of Death?...

man... this thread is on its way to locksville!
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
dl021
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:19 am

Gary2880-"Kill off as much military personal as you want I don't care, that's what they are for their job is to fight wars, their paid to do it, they are mentally prepared to die

''ours is not to reason why ours is but to do and die''"


What a bunch of crap. You are quoting a poem that is a critical treatise on a suicide charge that was such a disaster it prompted change in the way the British Army commissioned and promoted officers.

Kipling wrote "Charge of the Light Brigade" about a huge loss that spoke as much about the courage of the soldiers as the ineptitude and blindness of the officers who led them, as the indifference and lack of understanding by the civil populace. I guess some of that has not changed.....and to be specific the British Army is now the most professional army in the world led and manned by well trained volunteers where officers are taught to husband their resources and fight smart....so it must be some of the civil populace that still does not really regard their military with any respect or gratitude.

Here is your attitude "Kill off as much military personal as you want I don't care," Your attitude toward the military is callous and reprehensible. Their willingness to put themselves between you and harm is what allows you to spout such drivel. Keep that in mind.

So, instead of posting that crap here, go down to Aldershot one night and say that at the local pub in a loud voice. Then post back to let us all know the results of the ensuing conversation. It's easy to be ballsy over the internet.

stratofish-"Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 147):
But you said it was the biggest crime of the century-...

Where and when did I say that it were THE BIGGEST? Please quote me, if possible."

***ok, here***Quoting Stratofish (Reply 142):
No, and no matter how you put it, dropping that nukes and the Holocaust were the biggest crimes commited in the last century (if not ever)!


Starfish, you probably should read your previous posts prior to asking someone to show how you are speaking from both sides of your mouth in a conversation.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Gary2880
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 154):
I do however, understand your intent. We prepare for getting killed . . . Last Wills and Testaments, Powers of Attorney, etc . . . we understand getting killed could occur . . . I don't believe, however, if you talk to any A-Netter that is/was military - US or otherwise - they are "prepared to die". That is defeatest at best and endangers yourself and those around you.

then I apologize, you managed to fathom what I meant even if I couldn't get it out myself! My idea was to state in my seemingly heartless way that any military service person would be more prepared in ways to be killed than a civilian that is not involved in the conflict. if in a war people are going to die i would rather it was people of the understanding it could happen to them
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 157):
if in a war people are going to die i would rather it was people of the understanding it could happen to them

THen in this light I will agree . . . .unfortunately, that is never the case. War is not pretty, any attempt to glamorize it on any front is a fruitless waste of effort. The loss of civilians, however tragic, will occur, no matter what. Condemning any Army for a loss of civilians is in my opinion a similar injustice - if you want to condemn someone, condemn the politicians that caused the conflict in the first place.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gary2880
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 156):
Here is your attitude "Kill off as much military personal as you want I don't care," Your attitude toward the military is callous and reprehensible. Their willingness to put themselves between you and harm is what allows you to spout such drivel. Keep that in mind.

no one makes them join. As I said it is their job, it is what they are for. Their job is to lay down their life if nessacerry(sp?). Do you deny that? I would rather people died doing their job that they have trained and are paid for than civilians that goes for both Japanese and American military. In my book no amount of military lives saved by killing civilians is justifiable.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
aviationmaster
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:43 am

"no one makes them join. As I said it is their job, it is what they are for. Their job is to lay down their life if nessacerry(sp?). Do you deny that? I would rather people died doing their job that they have trained and are paid for than civilians that goes for both Japanese and American military. In my book no amount of military lives saved by killing civilians is justifiable."

Remeber there are still countries out there who still have mandatory military service. Israel and Switzerland would be examples.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 159):
In my book no amount of military lives saved by killing civilians is justifiable.

We're back to that vicious circle again of how many civilians were lost at H & N . . . and how many would have been lost had the US/UK forces landed on the islands with an invasion force . . .

Therefore, we are at square one. . . .

I do however, understand what you are saying . . . In Your Opinion, it's not justifiable . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 148):
Right, TECHNICALLY. But morality is the first to die, I know.

There IS no morality in war, Sherlock! What part of that do you NOT understand! War is an evil. But there are levels of the evil. Using a weapon that ENDS the evil of the war itself is no war crime. It wa part of the process, began Sept 1, 1939, when the Germans crossed into Poland, and ended on the deck of the Missouri on Sept 2, 1945. That was THE evil.

Truman had a choice: drop the bombs, and there's a good chance Japan would surrender, which they did; or not drop it, and more Americans would die-and yes, more Japanese. But his responsibiity was NOT to the Japanese that would die, but to his fellow Americans. But it did save other Japanese lives.

I'm not going to blow smoke up your butt and tell you it was a "good thing", to drop these weapons. It wasn't-it was part of the evil of the greatest war man has ever seen. But it was the CORRECT thing to do, for many reasons, and history bears that out.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 148):
Where and when did I say that it were THE BIGGEST? Please quote me, if possible.

There's your quote, Sherlock. You put it ahead of the Holocaust. To even put it NEAR the same level is absurd; it's disgusting; it's reprehensible; it's sickening.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 142):
No, and no matter how you put it, dropping that nukes and the Holocaust were the biggest crimes commited in the last century (if not ever)!



Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 149):
if someone's going to die I would rather it was military personal on both sides rather than civilians.

If someone was going to die, I'd rather it be someone in Japan, than possible someone my father or my grandfather or great-grandfather had known, who might have had a child lose a parent, or a wife a husband. My concern would have been, back then, for the AMERICANS FIRST, the enemy last. Sorry to burst your naive bubble, but that's the way it is.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 153):
Maybe so but you must know that its a possibility in a war zone

The ENTIRE WORLD, save the America's, was a war zone, Gary! Tell your drivel to someone who survived the Blitz; or the Dresden bombing; or Nanking, or Saipan. War isn't just about armies-that's naive in the extreme. It was, at least back then, more than today, about conquering territory and cities, and when you do that, civilians die.

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 155):
Falcon I urge you to begin your threads with "warning if you dont agree withmy opinion youll be flamed, mocked or worse"

Urge whatever you want, I don't really care, my friend.

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 155):
Cairo I agree with you on this one because the philosophy behind this one is "there are no rules in war, so anything goes, even if we are crazy, wrong or both"

But the fact is, your naivete notwithstanding, that IS the truth. War doesn't have real rules, save for treatment of prisoners. But war takes on a life of it's own, and won't conform to rules for very long.

Example: in the beginning of the American Civil War, both armies Union and Rebel tried to make it a gentemenly war; where it was treated , in effect, with kids gloves. But both sides realized, after a while, that if they were ever to reach their individual goals-the South independence, the North, preservation of the Union-the gloves were going to have to come off. You couldn't treat an enemy with gentemenly kindness if you were going to defeat them in battle. You'd have to be willing to do things that, in a time of peace, you might think unconcionable. Grant, Sherman, Lee, Longstreet and all those generals knew this-they didn't like it, but they knew it.

There are no rules in war, if you want your side to triumph. This isn't a friendly game of cards-it's life-or-death to achieve a political and military goal, and when you feel that goal is in danger, you will go beyond what are considered the "rules".

Unfortunately, too many who don't understand warfare, never understand that point. It's not pretty; it isn't nice; it's inherently evil in and of itself, but it's the truth.

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 155):
Falcon if you are such a perfect example of the WHOLE thruth, you know so much or the REAL history, the REAL facts, heck maybe you even have a time machine, you dont you write a Book?

I'm not in this for some concept of "truth", if you will. I'm in it, dispassionately looking back at history, trying to put myself in the mind of Harry Truman, as he weighed this decision, and I think he was right. I think his decision was corret, and I think history has borne that out.

As for writing a book, despite the fact I do write pretty good, I'm probably not patient enough to do all the research on a book, be it on something that interests me, like Gettysburg, Pearl Harbor or the end of WWII, or even the Cuban Missile Crisis.

But I do think I'm smart enough to take the information I've been given over the years, and, as a relatively sane and rationale human being, come to my own conclusions. And my conclusion is that Truman had no other choice to do except that which he did.

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 155):
but that would not mean Id hate you or think you are "naive or such"

I hate no one on here, my friend. But if I think you're naive on a subject, hey, why beat around the bush? I think Cairo is; I think Gary is; I think you're being naive on it. I call a spade a spade, dude. If I think you're wrong, or naive, why mince words, or tapdance around the truth? What purpose does that serve?

Harry Truman, is a hero, in my view-that'll piss off a lot of the anti-US, revisionist historians on here, but he is. He took an oath to Preserve, protect and defend the United States, and he did that, without flinching, without worrying what the naive and revisionists would think of him 60 years later, he save American lives, and ended the bloodiest conflict manking has ever had to bear.

He's no criminal; he's a hero to the American people.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Gary2880
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 162):
why mince words, or tapdance around the truth? What purpose does that serve?

If I, and im sure others, didn't mince our words concerning you im sure we would have wasted our $25 joining fee  Wink

may I ask, have you ever been in the military? I would think your just the kinda guy their looking for...

Remember this Falcon. History has 2 sides, the winners write the history books, if you believe that all the books your father read to you weren't bias I think you should look up the word naive in the dictionary
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 163):
If I, and im sure others, didn't mince our words concerning you im sure we would have wasted our $25 joining fee

You're money, mate. Fire away. I can take it.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 163):
if you believe that all the books your father read to you weren't bias I think you should look up the word naive in the dictionary

You, who talks of war in such gentemenly terms, shouldn't call anyone else "naive" my friend.

And my estimation of what I know hold here, thank you.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
787
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 163):
History has 2 sides, the winners write the history books

That's right. And that's why those history books you read are not written in German or Japanese kanji. This nonsense I read in this thread is pure foolishness.

Japan and it's totalitarian fanatics were the root cause of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fortunately there was a little sanity left in Japan that put an end to their own self inflicted madness. Japan (the looser) is now one of the U.S.'s staunchest allies. Perhaps that should be re-written too in your selective reasoning? How preposterous.

Japan started it, but the U.S. sure did end it in two mighty "kabooms". Sorry about that, but that is the good reality of history. An even greater reality is that now Japan is a strong friend to the U.S.

Well world history revisionists, imagine that?????!!!!!

Thank you very much.
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
Stratofish
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:39 pm

No matter how often I re-read my post 143, I did put them on the same level. If anyone don't understand the meaning of the word "and" use a dictionary.



And nobody tries to re-wriet history except those who do praise the nukings as an honorable act. It, too, was a crime, period.
And if we still think a crime is the best answer for a previously commited one, then we have learnt nothing in all human history.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
aviationmaster
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One Ameri

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:06 pm

"No matter how often I re-read my post 143, I did put them on the same level. If anyone don't understand the meaning of the word "and" use a dictionary."

Yikes! Comparing the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the Holocaust is just a big NO NO.

It's something that one can argue about over another 100 posts, but if you already look at the nuking of H&N (and the Holocaust - where you ARE correct), as the biggest crime of the last century, then there's something wrong there and another 100 posts of trying to explain to you why it's not so, won't change the way you and others think.


Re-read this part that I'm quoting from Falcon84's post nr. 143:

"Excuse me, but it was the Soviet Union, and your nation-Germany, that committed the biggest crimes of the century, friend. You're going to rate the death of about 200,000 people ABOVE Stalin's purges of his military in the 30's and 40's, and the pograms of the 50's, where MILLIONS dies, and of Hitler's Final Solution, where MILLIONS died? What about Japan's crimes in China, that killed far, far more than the bombings? How dare you. That statement, in and of itself, is a crime to history, and against the bruatlity of the Soviet Union of Germany in the 30's and 40's, and against Japan in that 15 year span. To compare those to a legitimate attack on a nation that had started a war against us, is repugnant; it's disgusting; it's a LIE."


It's absurd to mention an action, which was meant to finish one of the bloodiest wars of mankind, as the biggest crime of the century, even less when it was undertaken by the country that didn't even start the war.
 
Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:44 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 166):
And nobody tries to re-wriet history except those who do praise the nukings as an honorable act. It, too, was a crime, period.

I don't see anyone here, my revisionist friend, saying it was an "honorable act". There's nothing honorable about warfare. It was THE CORRECT act, given the circumstances, and it was no crime. It was warfare. Unlike the gassing and murder of 6 million "undesirables" by your forefathers, Stratofish, which was far beyond the purview of warfare, the dropping of the bombs in no way constituted a "crime". It was a military attack on a nation that had started a war. That, a crime? You have no clue what your'e talking about.

And, again, to compare it with the Holocaust, is utterly insulting. The only good thing it doesn't change the fact that Mr. Truman did the right thing. It wasn't "moral thing". It wasn't an "honorable thing". There's nothing moral nor honorable about war. But it was the right decision, that ended 6 years of bloody war.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
halls120
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 166):
And if we still think a crime is the best answer for a previously commited one, then we have learnt nothing in all human history

That you consider the act of using a nuclear weapon to end the war was a crime - and on the same level as Nazi Concentration Camps and gas chambers - is despicable.

If that is the prevailing attitude among Germans these days, it makes me even more glad that my ancestors left Bavaria in the 1800's....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 169):
That you consider the act of using a nuclear weapon to end the war was a crime - and on the same level as Nazi Concentration Camps and gas chambers - is despicable.

There are other adjectives I would probably use in place of despicable, it will do however . . .

The use of two atomic bombs to end WW2 pales in comparison to the actions of the Nazi party in Europe and the Japanese in China.

I can't even comprehend the thinking of Stratofish in that post . . . perhaps he'd been hitting the Bitburger a but, or the Jagermeister was doing his posting - at least if this were the case he could be excused for being drunk rather than insane.
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Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:18 am

Again-and I don't think this can be stressed enough: no one is saying that dropping those bombs was a "good" thing. No one is saying is was "honorable". In the twilight of a conflict that cost more than 50 million lives (remember that, all those who are critisizing Truman), there was nothing good or honorable left to do, except end the war. It was a choice between two bad choices: drop these two weapons, and about 200,000 people die a horrible death, some not for years later, or proceed with invasion, which would have meant the deaths of even more Allied and Japanese combatants, and many, many more Japanese civilians.

Given that choice, Truman took the road that offered the chance to end the war the fastest, with the LEAST amount of horror. And he was CORRECT. He wasn't being noble, but he was correct.
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soyuzavia
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 146):
If you would not make the decision to save, at minimum, 250,000 of your own troops and at least double that amount of Japanese, by sacrificing 130,000 of the enemy, thank God you weren't in command.

You can pluck these 250,000 figures out of the air to try and justify the war crimes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but people who listen to what you say need to remember that this 250,000 comes from where exactly? It's a "if", "but" or "maybe". The only figure which is known is that approximately 400,000 people died as a direct result of the nuclear bombings or from the cancers not long after wards. It's the only figure which can't be disputed.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 140):
That's where you and I differ, and it's where I think you naive. You are, again, using 2005 justification to pass judgement on a 1945 issue.

I'm not looking at the issue thru 2005 eyes. I am looking at the issue thru humanist eyes.

Sure, bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have seemed like a good thing to have done at the time, but it doesn't make it right. Other things which we think are despicable also used to seem like a good and acceptable thing at the time -- slavery for instance. We do this all the time -- as in discussing past events which some might have found acceptable but denounce them today.

I am not American and I owe not a single thing to America and I haven't been brought up in the American propaganda, sorry, education system, so I find it easier to look outside the square.

Just how many American lives are worth the estimated 400,000 that died as a result of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Does 1 American soldier's life = 400,000 Japanase civilian lives, Does 2 American soldier's lives = 400,000 Japanese civilian lives, does 1,000 American soldier's lives = 400,000 Japanese civilian lives? Or 10,000? 15,000? 50,000? 100,000? 200,000? 400,000? Which is it?

I am not saying that the bombing of Hiroshima is worse than the NAZI killing of Jews, nor the Japanese massacres in Manchuria. But the bombings were a war crime.

Consider this -- if it was Germany or Japan which dropped the bomb on the US or Britain, and they still lost the war, would that bombing be considered a war crime?

That is the question that no-one has answered. And I know why -- it is because we know what the answer would be. Winning a war doesn't give you immunity from everything you did.

Start looking at the issue without those American glasses on, and you will see exactly what it is I am talking about.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 172):
But the bombings were a war crime.

 redflag  redflag  redflag 

That's all I have to say about your ridiculous commentary.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 172):
Consider this -- if it was Germany or Japan which dropped the bomb on the US or Britain, and they still lost the war, would that bombing be considered a war crime?

That is the question that no-one has answered. And I know why -- it is because we know what the answer would be.

Why don't you enlighted us?
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Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 172):
You can pluck these 250,000 figures out of the air to try and justify the war crimes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Please. In 30 days, on Iwo Jima, 20,000 Japanese perished, Russophile. They fought to the death; they hardly ever surrendered. They made the U.S. pay a steep, step price, of more than 5,000 dead, for that 30 days.

And you're going to sit here and tell me that an invaison of Japan proper, would not have cause more deaths than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You're 'round the bend, dude. Completely. Hell, that many alone would have died within the first month of an invasion. The number of deaths, until Japan had been conquered, would have been enormous. No matter what figure you use, it would have been far higher than H & N. That justifies it alone.

Let alone, again, using a weapon in time of war, against a nation that warred upon you, is no crime. I don't know where you get that shit from.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 172):
I'm not looking at the issue thru 2005 eyes. I am looking at the issue thru humanist eyes.

You're looking at it from your 2005, humanist bias, nothing else. What does your "humanist" bias tell you about the viability of letting a war continue, unabated, when you have the chance to end it cold? What does it tell you about, if you start a war, that you have to take the risks associated with such a decision? What does it tell you about making the opposite decision, and letting thousands and thousands of your citizens die-simply to assuage people like you who want a President of the United States, at war with Japan, to give equal consideration to the Japanese as his own people.

Wasn't a crime, never will be. It was a terrible ending to a terrible conflict, but it made unnecessary an even more terrible ending.
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Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 172):
Just how many American lives are worth the estimated 400,000 that died as a result of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

When you're the President of the United States, every single fucking one of them. When you're waiting at home for a loved one, who is in the service, and may die in the invasion, every single fucking one of them; when you know the war could cost you even more Americans, you don't hesitate.

Or, did you forget, Russophile, that Japan warred on the U.S.? And yet , in your warped, naive mind, you would want ANY American to feel sympathy for them? How much sympathy did they have for the people of China-how many of those Chinese lives were worth it? What about all those allied solders, who had their heads lopped off, or died in the Bataan Death March, at the hands of these people? You don't think it would have been worth it to them?

When at war, Russophile, your people come before that OF THE ENEMY. Every time. It's dumbfounding that you don't understand that.
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Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:02 am

Good Article ond Paul Tibbets, who flew the mission over Hiroshima.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/09/enolagay.pilot.ap/index.html
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B744F
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 175):
When at war, Russophile, your people come before that OF THE ENEMY. Every time. It's dumbfounding that you don't understand that.

Which is why blind nationalism is so dangerous, childish, and illogical, whether the blind patriots of China, Japan, Russia, Germany, or America.
 
Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 177):
Which is why blind nationalism is so dangerous, childish, and illogical, whether the blind patriots of China, Japan, Russia, Germany, or America.

Oh, give me a friggin' break and zip it, B744F. It's called SURVIVAL!!! The SRUVIVAL of Americans, to POTUS, is more important to the survival of a Japanese person in that circumstance. It isn't blind nationalism, it's taking care of your own in time of conflict.

Good God, the dream world you live in is astounding.

Are you telling me Truman SHOULD NOT HAVE put Americans first? Come on-be a man, and tell me that's what you want to say.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 178):
It's called SURVIVAL!!!

We would have survived anyway, as the alien mind control device hidden under the North Pole simply had to be turned off. If it had been sooner, than the social experiment the Grays were running to determine who humans behave under fascist systems that is so laughingly called "World War II" would never have happened.

Signed, B744F.



P.S. The truth is out there!!!
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cptkrell
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:43 pm

With only a bit more than an hour (local time) of "Nagasaki Day" remaining, I guess I'd chime in that I am most sorry the bombs weren't ready to be used on Dec 9th, 1941. Think about how many people THAT would have saved. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 180):
With only a bit more than an hour (local time) of "Nagasaki Day" remaining, I guess I'd chime in that I am most sorry the bombs weren't ready to be used on Dec 9th, 1941. Think about how many people THAT would have saved. Regards...Jack

Would have been interesting, that's for sure.
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iakobos
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:10 am

Back from short holidays.
Not intending to pour vinegar on a moribund and unfortunately unconstructive thread, just answering your question in post 139.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 139):
Like you, I suspect that there were reasons in support of that decision that related more to politics and statecraft than to strategies of the war of the moment.

We agree on this.
The Pacific war in August '45 was no longer material for (global political) strategy, the burning matter at hand was how to cope with an entirely new situation, a world cut in two, and avoid an open confrontation between an eagle and a bear.
Truman had the answer that settled everything at once, at least for a few years.


Quoting SlamClick (Reply 139):
However, I would invite you to consider something. The documents you cite are, no doubt, genuine but they are still subject to some evaluation. People briefing the President, or any other politician rarely serve it up with the hide and horns still on it. As I see nothing in your profile that would lead me to believe that you have ever been an officer in the U.S. military let me ask you a rhetorical question:
QUESTION: How do you address a general who gives the President a less-than-optimistic estimate?
ANSWER: "Colonel..."

Minutes of a meeting are supposed to be a summary of the points discussed, on the spot factual synthesis, figures and/or any significant point will be related. The "relator" himself was a military and I assume his minutes were approved by the main authorities present.

In this specific meeting, which served the President to get the final views from the military chiefs (i.e. on the MILITARY conduct of the war), one of the subjects Truman wanted to hear were their estimates in terms of casualties, should "Downfall" be conducted along the various possible scenarii.
All uniformed present relied on their own staff studies to come up with estimates.
D. Mc Arthur, supposedly to lead the Olympic invasion (only the terrestrial part...which for me remains a question mark from a military point of view...and a minor element in my opinion that Truman knew the operation would probably not take place), came with the lowest figures, but there were no very significant differences between the various chiefs and Corps.

I do not concur that a General would come up with "optimistic" numbers ("fewer" casualties) especially if he is going to lead the effort, to the contrary.
He will make his best to grab as much resources as he can hope for, certainly not telling the last decidor that it will be a piece of cake.

There is nothing in what I read from and about Truman that leads me to believe he was a man to buy crap.
Note: his own personal diary is conclusively in accordance with the minutes of the 18 June meeting.

That "original" documents would be "evaluated" leaves me penless.
What strikes me however is that it took the efforts of a federal official to get them public after 53 years.

I understand that Truman did not reach its decision through discussing the war with the military, but by jauging the pros and the cons with a political leader of global stature. Who seems obvious to me.
Of this they will never be any documents.
 
Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 182):
Not intending to pour vinegar on a moribund and unfortunately unconstructive thread,

Unconstructive? I beg to differ! I think it's been greatly constructive, as we've seen what a lame thing revisionism is, and how lame some people, like B744F are, in trying to rewrite history to suit their own bias.

The final judgement of this event is that no one, whether they agree that the attack was justified or not, LIKED the decision-I'll bet if old Harry could speak, he'd tell you that he chose what he saw as the lesser of two evils, and he certainly took no joy in ordering this attack. But there's no doubt, again, that from a military standpoint, in the heat of a war, and from the standpoint of Truman's responsibility TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, that the decision was correct, and history backs that up, as it suddenly ended the most destructive war man has ever (and, God willing), will ever know.
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Falcon84
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RE: 60th Anniv. Of Hiroshima-Perspect Of One American

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:37 am

And, for anyone in the PC, revisionist camp, who still clings to the illusion that dropping the bomb was a bad thing, tell that to the peoples of Asia, who suffered mightily under Japanese domination-a point that still evokes bitterness from all parts of Asia.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/...u=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

In my view, the bombings were a necessary evil to end a war. To those people in Asia, it was Japan getting what it rightfully deserved.
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