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dvk
Posts: 1016
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting ReguPilot (Reply 141):
I wonder if your CHRISTIAN GAY status is a temporary one;

No, my status is permanent in both categories. Your statement and the many posts of Allstarflyer suggest that both of you fit into the category of modern day Pharisees: those who are so focused on the arcane aspects of Christian "law" that you have lost sight of the true spirit of Christianity. Do I think you're condemmed, as you seem to think I am? NO. Do I think you are bad people? NO. But I think it is because of people like you that many who are agnostic or atheist have such a visceral dislike for Christianity and religion in general.
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 144):
I wish that all homosexuals became straight, but that isn't going to happen. But what I really do wish is that gay people, especially young gay people were happy and weren't so depressed as they are.

did you ever think that perhaps if the church and society in general were more accepting of the way they are, that they would be less depressed? No one wants to be gay, but im sure that if society and religion didnt hate them for it then they would be less prone to being depressed etc...

-AA777
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 40):
UAL, I concluded a long time ago that most "Christians" don't have their own opinion on anything. They usually just regurgitate what they have been fed.

I thing your are GENERALISING. Anyway, I don't have much timetoday so I can't say much, maybe tomorrow I'll answer all your questions UAL747. I'm a Catholic (Irish/Italian blend... so you can imagine what that's like!). As a Christian Catholic I have NO problem with homosexuals. Why should I? I went through a Catholic school and really were mainly thought that to be good Christians we have to be open to accepting people and not condemning them and that respet was imperative.
I have known many gays over the years, some got on my nerves, others didn't (just like hetrosexuals). I firmly and personnally believe that God and people who actually udnerstand our faith accept all people.
Now the people I do find hard to take are they radical right-wing catholics who don't accept gays or my opinions I've just stated above. Just like I find anyone who judges other hard to take. A homosexual is a sexual tendency, period. It's not a criminal act and doen NO harm to anyone, thus why should it offend Christians.
And what might surprise you most, I have developped these opinions through two different channels:
1. the teachings I received in my CATHOLIC school and things I have heard from many CATHOLIC priests during their sermons and when teaching me as a little lad in Ireland.
2. spent many years living in Madrid where I had a good "female" friend who had a bizarre obsession with gay men and thus on numerous occassions I ended up partying with her and her boyfriend (who found it much more difficult to stomach for some reason) in the gay area of Madrid.
Let's all just live and let live. Respect eachother. They are the key elements to my focus on life and what has been instilled in me as a child!
 
redngold
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexua

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 134):
Why are you latching on to ONE SUBJECT (homosexuality) and refusing to put it into CONTEXT with all of the other outdated laws found in the Bible?



Quoting Redngold (Reply 67):
Leviticus gives all of the laws from God. Later references, including Matthew 15:12-14 which is Jesus's words, deal with all sexual immorality as listed in Leviticus. There is no distinction between fornication, homosexuality, beastiality or incest. All sexual impurity remains an offense to God, as it is deeply rooted in the heart (and soul.) ... The distinction is between laws applying to physical and medical conditions and those that apply to morality.

Jesus taught that if you break one part of the law you have broken it all. However, he places specific emphasis on moral law, rather than all of the dietary, physical, and medical laws. He upheld the moral law and purity of spirit.

Some of the things from Leviticus, which you quoted above, are just good sense:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 132):

Leviticus 19

Verse 9: "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest."

Verse 19: "Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."

Verse 26: "Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it."

Verse 27: "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Verse 35: "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure"

Verse 28: "Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord."

Verse 9: Prior to GPS and surveying, cutting down the edges of your field could create a boundary dispute. It also left your field susceptible to invasion by noxious plants. It also made *you* susceptible to eating contaminated food. Finally, gleanings were to be left for the poor.

Verse 19: Clothing that is made of more than one type of material is more likely to wear unevenly. It also generally requires more time to make an article of clothing out of more than one material, therefore becoming an issue of vanity. Planting your field with more than one type of seed is also more time consuming. Time consuming = less time for family, personal reflection, and worship. Simplicity rules.

Verse 26: Koshered food, without modern disinfecting and pasteurization techniques, is less likely to carry blood-borne parasites and other diseases.

Verse 27: Time consuming and vain; also, a cultural distinction to aid recognition of other Hebrews.

Verse 28: Do you really want to rip open or pierce your skin without sterilization? Even if you do, you're much more likely to get an infection than if you left your skin be naturally beautiful. And adornment of this type is vanity.

Verse 35: This is honesty in measurement and not cheating others.

Just good, common sense if you think about it. Oh, wait. God can't give us common sense.  sarcastic 


redngold
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:42 am

RednGold,

(I liked it better when you were treading lightly, but oh well.)

I don't disagree with some of what you've said, even though you clearly disagree with all of what I have said.

This business of taking scripture extremely literally when it suits a person, and then taking it extremely generally when it doesn't is the hypocrisy that no one will admit to.

The 'fundamentalists' in this thread prove my point with each post they make.

" ... well this doesn't count because it's in the Old Testament, but that does count because Jesus told me so ... "

Every time a thread regarding religion is started, the double standards start flying.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 153):
Jesus taught that if you break one part of the law you have broken it all.

If this is true, then he must have also taught that if you follow one law with literal interpretation, then you must follow them all equally as strictly.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 153):
Verse 9: Prior to GPS and surveying, cutting down the edges of your field could create a boundary dispute. It also left your field susceptible to invasion by noxious plants. It also made *you* susceptible to eating contaminated food. Finally, gleanings were to be left for the poor.

So the invention of an electronic device that communicates with satellites is enough to nullify the literal translation of the Bible? If something as simple as a GPS can broaden one's Christian view of how to avoid land disputes . . . Why are all the medical and psychological discoveries in support of homosexuality to be so easily dismissed?

Regardless of how you or others might choose to answer, I will believe your answer to be this: You will always condemn homosexuality while ignoring other issues because you have your own, human bias against it.

The Bible has FAR more verses regarding love for fellow man than it does about "man lying with another man".

I don't see much love coming from the fundamentalists - I see neverending judgment, condemnation and hypocrisy.

So you've picked a verse out of the Bible, and you have literalized it, and you have excused your own biases by pointing to it.

You will never define Christianity for me.
 
JeepBoy
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:56 am

fLYBOYOZ....

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 34):
Wow...that's a long debate. I have seen some people from Hillsong are gay. I never ask them whether they are gay or not but i saw them from their photos in the gay website and also chatroom as well.

Holy shit batman! Flyboyoz, do you belong to Hillsong? How disgustingly hideous! Did you go to the recent Hillsong Convention at Olympic Park? My sister is the convention manager at Olympic Park and was horrified at having to oversee the Hillsong convention..

http://www.hillsong.com/hillsong/bin...ew.pl?sitename=hillsong&page=index


jb

hillsong=scarey stuff
 
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3558
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting JeepBoy (Reply 155):
Holy shit batman! Flyboyoz, do you belong to Hillsong? How disgustingly hideous!

Hillsong is only scarey because it's trying to make itself out as mainstream. I always hate it when I see them crapping on about morals & values and the like.

As for the rest of this discussion I can't understand why people just can't accept our different and diverse ways of life while getting on with our own. Even though I was baptised I don't regard myself as having any religious affiliation or view. Nor do I think the church has any right to preach to me about moral values given their track record of abuse and domination in various places around the world and throughout the course of history. I treat others with respect because that's what my parents brought me up to do and in return I expect others to treat me with respect. I accept differences in others because my friends were from different ethnic groups, different religions and now mostly live in different countries. If you don't show respect and tolerance to other people then a modern society can't function as it should which is one of the problems we all face today.

As an aside, men have been sleeping with each other for as far back as history records. Virtually every ancient civilisation has had a leader or prominent person that has been suspected of being a homosexual. Since Jesus was supposedly around only recently in mans history I don't see why we should focus all our attention on a secular teaching when their is a wealth of other sources of teachings for us.
 
JeepBoy
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:53 pm

Sydscott - I also totally agree with on organised religion. *yay*

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 157):
Hillsong is only scarey because it's trying to make itself out as mainstream. I always hate it when I see them crapping on about morals & values and the like.

It's also a thinly disguised money making venture of course. They certainly didn't skimp on the convention my sister had to organise for them.

The slickness with marketing and TV is frightening. I hate it when I search for music on Kazza and there is ALWAYS a freaking hillsong version.

*vomits*

beep beep it's Jeepboy

clowns=frowns
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 156):
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/PnHsxTotalit.htm

TACA, if you're not going to justify your post in reply 120 as I asked you to in reply 149, could you at least provide some thoughts behind your posting of this link? Or does the fact that I'm even asking this prove that I simply don't understand?

Respectfully, Rich

Oh, and Diamond - excellent reply 154.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:42 pm

RedDragon

Please stop "driving around for no apparent reason...".

You explicit accept to understand what I posted.

Why additional explanations?
It is definitely true that you "simply don't understand".

By the way, this is at least the third thread about the same theme. The last one [about this same or similar theme][if my memory don't fail] was posted by OzarkDC9. They simply take us to nowhere.

Respectfully yours,

H.

[Edited 2005-08-26 14:43:16]

[Edited 2005-08-26 14:53:30]
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:52 pm

This is like trying to get blood out of a stone.

TACA, I'm not argumentatively trying to get you to explain your position simply so I can piss all over it - I'm genuinely unsure as to your reasoning, and I'd appreciate it if you could clarify for me. Can't you just humour me? Spell it out for me as if I'm stupid, I don't care - just answer a couple of my questions. Please?
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 161):
Spell it out for me as if I'm stupid,

I never ever said that. And I will never do.

Unfortunatelly [and wrongly] you are the only one in here thinking that way. Naugh said.

Have a great day!

[Edited 2005-08-26 15:01:44]
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:00 pm

*sigh*

Anyone holding a complementary view to TACA's care to exposit some thoughts behind the relevant and not-so-relevant sections of catechism, or that "Lest you had any doubts about the totalitarian mindset of the pansexual or homosexualist agenda, read the following" (I kid you not) link? Anyone actually interested in conversation and debate rather than childishly refusing to follow up an opinionless post?

Really, I'm being serious - just slightly weary of bashing my head against the brick wall that is TACA.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 163):
Anyone actually interested in conversation and debate rather than childishly refusing to follow up an opinionless post?

Please stop

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 160):
"driving around for no apparent reason...".

Your attitude is just taking us to nowhere.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
If this is true, then he must have also taught that if you follow one law with literal interpretation, then you must follow them all equally as strictly.

Not every single rule in the Bible applies to every single person. You have to actually read the Bible to understand what applies to what. There is a reason why we still abide by the Ten Commandments, but don't live by the rules of Leviticus, although we do respect them as insight into how God wants his people to live.


RedDragon, it's not my place to explain TACA's opinions, but I don't see anything unclear about the catechisms that he posted. They make sense to me, and by and large, I agree with the Catholic Church's stance on issues of sexuality.
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:30 am

MD-90: I didn't necessarily see anything unclear about a lot of the catechism posted - I just didn't see any relevance to the discussion with a lot of it (and still don't). I didn't consider posting a large chunk just on the topic of sexuality as contributing to the discussion in a clear manner.

You're welcome to add your thoughts on any of it though  Smile

Re. following different Biblical laws to different extents, how is this determined? I'm not too convinced by Redngold's argument about moral versus physical laws - what about, for example, the case of stoning adulterers and so on?

Rich
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:54 am

TACA's posts reminds me of the Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead", when Roark, after choosing to represent himself in the trial after he designed an ugly building, and after pages and pages of the prosecution speaking, his only response is throwing photos of his work to the judge and walks away, as if evidence provided by them is so clear that it doesnt need explanation.

The man obvously has his convictions. He need to learn that it takes more to prove a point than seemingly random links.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 165):
Not every single rule in the Bible applies to every single person

Then, whats the point?

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 165):
There is a reason why we still abide by the Ten Commandments

What commandment goes against homosexuality?

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 165):
but don't live by the rules of Leviticus,

Only the ones refering to homosexuality right?
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 167):
The man obvously has his convictions. He need to learn that it takes more to prove a point than seemingly random links.

Don't forget that I'm a lawyer  Wink
 
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:11 am

Deuteronomy Chapter 5

5:18. Neither shalt thou commit adultery.


Explanation >>>>> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01163a.htm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 167):
What commandment goes against homosexuality?

None. But those homosexuals, bi sexual, and heterosexuals that commit adultery are against God's will as previous stated.

Mt99

Thanks a lot for your kinds words addressed to me. God bless you.
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 168):
Don't forget that I'm a lawyer

I think that's the biggest surprise I've had all week...
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 171):
I think that's the biggest surprise I've had all week...

That is a wonderful prove that life is full of surprises  Wink
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting Deuteronomy 5:18 (Reply 170):
Neither shalt thou commit adultery.



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 170):
those homosexuals, bi sexual, and heterosexuals that commit adultery are against God's will as previous stated.

That's fair enough. Why can't people get married into same-gender unions though? (Or, rather, what's the Biblical justification for not allowing them to?)
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 159):
Oh, and Diamond - excellent reply 154.

Thanks! I was beginning to think it was only visible to me.  Smile
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 168):
Don't forget that I'm a lawyer

I would think that lawyers are taught to defend their position beyond a reasonable doubt. Throwing links, qoutes and documents with no explanation doesnt seem the way to do that. I might be wrong, but you need to work on defending your points of view with your own words and use documents to support your argument

You seem to know where to gather information, but it seems that you cant use it effectively.

Im glad you are not my lawyer.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 170):
None. But those homosexuals, bi sexual, and heterosexuals that commit adultery are against God's will as previous stated.

Have u ever? Come on, tell us! Nudge Nudge Wink Wink

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 170):
Thanks a lot for your kinds words addressed to me. God bless you.

You are welcome. I guess. Do you mind telling us how old are you? Its just that your attempt to sarcarm reminds me of my 12 year old niece. But if it makes you feel any better: God Bless you too.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 174):
Thanks! I was beginning to think it was only visible to me.

Agreed great response. Notice how the "christians" have nothing to say about it.
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 176):
Notice how the "christians" have nothing to say about it.

Oh, this Christian has - but then you're preaching to the converted  Wink

*awaits post from TACA telling me I'm not actually a true Christian*
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 177):
but then you're preaching to the converted

Well its proves the point being made here: that only certain things apply, and other things dont.

Diamond's does not apply in their minds, so its ignored.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 148):
You are a human being. You have opinions and biases just like the rest of us do

Quite true.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 148):
You have opinions and biases just like the rest of us do. I am bothered by the fact that your human biases are being excused by your retroactive interpretation of selected verses, while completely ignoring others.

Retroactive to what - a newer interpretation? Has God's Word changed in what He is saying? Heb. 13:8 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. So, He's forever been approving, ambilvalent of or disapproving of a homosexual lifestyle. In light of what Redngold mentioned . . .

Quoting Redngold (Reply 153):
However, he places specific emphasis on moral law, rather than all of the dietary, physical, and medical laws. He upheld the moral law and purity of spirit.

. . . it would appear that He has always been against that lifestyle.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 148):
I find profound arrogance in the words of people who are intent on telling us what the Bible means and how it must be interpreted.

REALLY? Then please interpret Romans 1. And did you read this part . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 138):
The point - not only do I agree that it is wrong for someone to judge anyone else, I've pointed it out in other threads before you did here, so don't be jumping me when you haven't referenced archives about similiar threads in which you and I were both involved. I agree nobody is qualified to judge anyone about this - right after God's position is made clear in Romans 1, I and everybody else is admonished at the beginning of Romans 2 about not making judgements. You won't find in this thread or any other any accusations I've thrown at any individual, but only have pointed out what Scripture has said. Which leads us to this - pointing out what Scripture says about the subject is notthe same as making accusations. I invite you to delve through the Anet non-av archives, but you'll only find that I've said this over and over.

? Where's the arrogance?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 148):
My emphasis on you was to point out that you have not been appointed as a spokesman for God, Christ or Christianity.

I've been inviting you all along, Diamond, to explain how God's Word condones homosexuality. If I'm not giving the right answers, then stop shadow boxing and show us from the Source what God is really saying about the matter.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 148):
What bothers me most is that you aren't curious enough. You don't wonder about other possibilities.

I've often wondered about possibilities about lots of things.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 150):
Your statement and the many posts of Allstarflyer suggest that both of you fit into the category of modern day Pharisees: those who are so focused on the arcane aspects of Christian "law" that you have lost sight of the true spirit of Christianity.

Here, Dvk, allow me to repeat . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 138):
You won't find in this thread or any other any accusations I've thrown at any individual, but only have pointed out what Scripture has said. Which leads us to this - pointing out what Scripture says about the subject is notthe same as making accusations. I invite you to delve through the Anet non-av archives, but you'll only find that I've said this over and over.

So what here makes me out to be a Pharisee in light of a remark like this?

Quoting Dvk (Reply 150):
But I think it is because of people like you that many who are agnostic or atheist have such a visceral dislike for Christianity and religion in general.

In Matthew 10:34, Christ says that "think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." He's a very divisive Character. People have to do it His way or go their own way. Some messages are not popular, and His standard concerning homosexuality is probably one of the most unpopular.

Diamond, you said this . . .

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
This business of taking scripture extremely literally when it suits a person, and then taking it extremely generally when it doesn't is the hypocrisy that no one will admit to.

. . . and then you said this . . .

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
The Bible has FAR more verses regarding love for fellow man than it does about "man lying with another man".

Diamond, you've already quoted Matthew 7, but does that negate God's principle concerning this topic which is outlined in Romans 1? Diamond, either tell me what Romans 1 is saying, or I'm forced to conclude this remark of yours concerning generalizations and so forth would be applicable to you.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
The 'fundamentalists' in this thread prove my point with each post they make.

Diamond, please spell out for me what points you have made - post a quote from yourself, or something. And you're not answering the questions directed towards you (like about explaining Romans 1) . . .

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
You will never define Christianity for me.

In the absence of Scriptural quotes on your part to help show why homosexuality is ok with God, excused by God or not condemned by God, I'm not sure by what, other than subjective interpretation, you define your perception of Christianity.

We've been throwing around that each other is subjective in their interpretations, Diamond. Only one view is correct. If we have to break down the koine Greek, then let's do it. Otherwise, God wouldn't be God if His Word was not harmonious. If Christ is God (John 1:1), and if He never changes (Heb. 13:8) and if He inspired Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16) and if He said that same-sex relationships are "vile affections" (Romans 1:26-27), then how are we to take that?

-R
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
I might be wrong,

Are you accepting the possibility of being wrong?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
but you need to work on defending your points of view with your own words and use documents to support your argument

Lawyers always do that. Don't you know it?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
Im glad you are not my lawyer.

I'm glad you're not my client.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
God Bless you too.

And I taught that you were atheist as few others...  Wink
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
You will always condemn homosexuality while ignoring other issues because you have your own, human bias against it.

Which is rooted in Romans 1.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
So you've picked a verse out of the Bible, and you have literalized it, and you have excused your own biases by pointing to it.

Then explain it.

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 159):
Oh, and Diamond - excellent reply 154.

What was so great about it?

-R
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 180):
Are you accepting the possibility of being wrong?

Of course. Im always open to be proved wrong. Thats the point of having a discussion. That is how people learn. Its OK being wrong. You should try it sometime.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 180):
Lawyers always do that. Don't you know it?

Thats what i thought they did. But you dont.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 180):
And I taught that you were atheist as few others

Im not, im catholic. I go to church every sunday.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 177):
*awaits post from TACA telling me I'm not actually a true Christian*

You'll be waiting for a long time.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
Im glad you are not my lawyer.

Not everbody needs one. But in any case, and in the event that you need one, that one must be licensed to work in El Salvador.
I really and sincerely hope that you don't need one anyway.
Good bless you!
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 181):
What was so great about it?

That no one seems to respond to it

TACA, i think i am going to start calling you "the colander". Your specialty seems to take an stance on several points, which are then are rebutted. Then you pick trivial points to address those rebuttals, but you leave the "meat" behind and you never address the issues directly.

[Edited 2005-08-26 23:36:18]
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:27 am

Allstar,

You are turning this into a childish competition, and I'm not going to join you on that level.

I have taken some time to explain my own opinions (using MY words), and I believe I have been quite clear. You, on the other hand, have hidden behind scripture in almost every point.

When I quoted scripture in one post, it was to point out to you and others the inconsistency and hypocrisy in your views and interpretation. You still haven't explained that even it makes sense to YOU. You have justified it with biblical babbling. You are basically saying, " ... I decree that it is scripturally so ... "

You're doing an awful lot of posturing in this thread, as you've done before. And you cover yourself with a ton of biblical "armor". I am really curious what your argument might be like without all the external defenses.

You keep asking ME to interpret Romans I as if that will somehow 'up the ante' in your Christian poker game.

In doing so, you have completely missed my point. You and your Bible-literalists are using your interpretation of scripture to JUDGE OTHERS. I am not going to play along with that at all.

I will tell you this: Romans and Leviticus do not teach me to judge your life. Sure, I have some judgments about your argument in this thread, but not about you as a person.

You cannot say the same thing. You're ALL about judging first, and justifying it later.

I am not afraid to continue this discussion with you at all. But I'm only going to continue it using my own feelings and thoughts, which I am prepared to "own" and stand behind. And I will only continue if you step up and do the same thing.

If you are going to keep quoting the Bible - find someone else to spar with. There are plenty of others.

Personally, I think you are afraid to put it down and just talk from your own heart.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:53 am

I am not a christian per se (I consider myself an atheist catholic) but there is just one point I would like to comment, the one about the de-gaying camps.

Unlike almost everyone in here I think that under the right conditions they might work, wether homossexuality is genetic or cultural.
A few decades ago it was common practice in Portugal (probably also in other countries) to force, in school, all kids to be right-handed. Children that showed tendencies to be left-handed were pressured to use their right hand. My mother is one of those children and she now is right-handed for almost everything (altough admiteddly her hand-writing is horrible). And the distinction between left and right-handed people is so pronounced you can see it in the brain...

I think that, depending on the child's age, it could eventually work (although I doubt they would be very happy adults). Should it be done? NO (just to make things clear). And I seriously doubt shoving a Bible up someon's nose is the best way to do it.

Enjoy your discussion,
Miguel
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
You are turning this into a childish competition, and I'm not going to join you on that level.

Rather, I am efforting, apparently effectively, to present God's Word accurately.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
You, on the other hand, have hidden behind scripture in almost every point.

Well, isn't that the point, Diamond? Proverbs 18:10 says "The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe." Scripture is there so Christians can run to it/go to it for answers, comfort and strength. For anyone who claims to be a gay Christian, do they not realize that Christianity is rooted in Scripture? And because it's rooted in Scripture, it is then fitting to quote said Scripture to explain why we believe what we believe.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
And you cover yourself with a ton of biblical "armor".

Then I'm thankful that that has apparently been the case. Ephesians 6:11 says that we are supposed to put on the whole armor of God. If you're so willing to quote Matthew 7, Diamond, then what do all of these other verses mean to you?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
You cannot say the same thing. You're ALL about judging first, and justifying it later.

Not only once did I say this . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 138):
I agree nobody is qualified to judge anyone about this - right after God's position is made clear in Romans 1, I and everybody else is admonished at the beginning of Romans 2 about not making judgements. You won't find in this thread or any other any accusations I've thrown at any individual, but only have pointed out what Scripture has said. Which leads us to this - pointing out what Scripture says about the subject is notthe same as making accusations. I invite you to delve through the Anet non-av archives, but you'll only find that I've said this over and over.

. . . but twice . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 179):
And did you read this part . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 138):
The point - not only do I agree that it is wrong for someone to judge anyone else, I've pointed it out in other threads before you did here, so don't be jumping me when you haven't referenced archives about similiar threads in which you and I were both involved. I agree nobody is qualified to judge anyone about this - right after God's position is made clear in Romans 1, I and everybody else is admonished at the beginning of Romans 2 about not making judgements. You won't find in this thread or any other any accusations I've thrown at any individual, but only have pointed out what Scripture has said. Which leads us to this - pointing out what Scripture says about the subject is notthe same as making accusations. I invite you to delve through the Anet non-av archives, but you'll only find that I've said this over and over.



Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
But I'm only going to continue it using my own feelings and thoughts, which I am prepared to "own" and stand behind.

Proverbs 3:5 says "trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." That's why I'll keep using Scripture.

You also say this . . .

Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
If you are going to keep quoting the Bible - find someone else to spar with. There are plenty of others.

. . . so I say this . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 87):
it (is) just what the Book says, that's all.



Quoting Diamond (Reply 185):
Personally, I think you are afraid to put it down and just talk from your own heart.

That quote from Proverbs 3 just now - that's a clear indication that my own heart needs to be in tune to what God is saying.

You also just said this . . .

Quoting Diamond (Reply 145):
While you 'agree' that no one is qualified to judge, there is judgment in many of your posts.

. . . but, before that, I said this . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 146):
Then, in return, in light of my comments in nature being explanations of what Scripture is saying, my challenge to you (again) would be to coherently identify any of my own judgements in the 1st place.

I'm out for the night.

-R
 
redngold
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexua

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
So you've picked a verse out of the Bible, and you have literalized it, and you have excused your own biases by pointing to it.

And just *what* do you think you were doing by mass posting of what you consider to be illogical and irrelevant verses from Leviticus in Post #132, the one which I copied for my reply? Pot... kettle... black.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
So the invention of an electronic device that communicates with satellites is enough to nullify the literal translation of the Bible? If something as simple as a GPS can broaden one's Christian view of how to avoid land disputes . . .

Did I *ever* say that GPS nullified the Biblical rule? NO. I used it as an example of why things just make common sense. I didn't say it was superseded.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
So you've picked a verse out of the Bible, and you have literalized it, and you have excused your own biases by pointing to it.

I looked at *all* of the verses concerning sexual immorality, including Jesus's own teaching about sexual immorality, not just the Levitical verse. Have you been reading my posts at all? You responses lead me to believe that you aren't reading everything and you don't care to.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
Why are all the medical and psychological discoveries in support of homosexuality to be so easily dismissed?

Look, you don't know me, you don't know my motivations or experience, and you don't know how much time I've spent reading literature on both sides of the situation. So let me enlighten you a little:

I have read the research and even took classes about homosexuality and queer theory, both from the liberal, secular Department of Women's Studies at University of Delaware and from the conservative Christian Growth in Christ seminars available through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Although people in the scientific professions are developing "theories" about the biological basis of homosexuality, the research is still very new, very limited, and not being conducted on a large scale by independent researchers. Until it is, I'm not going to lend creedence to the overblown expectations of a minority of people looking for any excuse to justify behavior with which I disagree.

I have personally experienced anti-gay discrimination and sentiment aimed at both my gay friends and at me for supporting their basic right to go through the day without being harassed, and eventually, at me as an individual because I chose to be an asexual, physically strong, assertive tomboy throughout high school. Some of those people likely witnessed the sexual assault perpetrated on me by another girl during gym class. After years and years of wondering where the nicknames came from, I remembered that the assault had been the triggering event. My best friend from elementary school came out to me when we were 15, and I still invited her to come visit me 500 miles away during which we would share the same bedroom. Eventually, I anguished about what these things might imply, what "signs" might be there, what each and every thought I was having might bear on my sexuality. I know what it's like to go through it, I know what it's like to be tormented by others, and I'm sorry that it happens.

It took me years to work through the emotional, psychological, and physical issues I had. In the mean time, I took those classes, talked with friends and counselors, and read my Bible. I knew what the Bible said, but I didn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I didn't want to believe that God actually told me, a way that God expected me to conduct myself. But the end to my anguish came in two ways:
First, an openly lesbian friend of mine talked with me about the assault. She said, "that has no bearing on you or the person who committed it. It was an act of violence." That came from a gay woman, a woman to whom I remain a loyal friend. How's that for accepting counsel and friendship from someone with whom I have a disagreement over "basic matters"? She knew my opinion and she was still my friend and still helped me.
Second, I read through the book of Romans and I decided that I didn't want to be one of those people who was "given over to a depraved mind." (Romans 1:28) I had knowledge of God, and I wanted to obey God, even if it was difficult and painful and took a long time for me to learn. That's a commitment I made, and I believe that I've made the right decision, because the anxiety is gone. I know who I am and why I am what I am.

I have had gay friends, I remain friendly with those who I know or suspect to be gay, and I treat them civilly and without bias in daily practice. I don't go out of my way to give my opinion: I give it when asked or openly provoked. One of my college friends ended our friendship because I shared my opinion; *most* have remained friends because just as I look past the "flaw of homosexuality" to be their friend, they look past my "flaw of bias" to remain mine. Would you accuse them of self-loathing for continuing caring, productive friendships with me?

I've heard it all: I've been told that my opinion must come out of self-loathing (I don't think so, and neither does my counselor), that I was taught this by my parents (no, they disagree with me), or that my opinion means I must be a hateful bigot who's always looking for a way to hurt homosexuals. Yet I know that I believe in treating others with dignity as human beings, and I'm known, by those who know me best, as a caring, compassionate individual who would rather tell the hard truth than attempt to please someone who's going the wrong direction in life. It's because of this that I refuse to dignify, reward or approve of behavior that I believe is immoral and contrary to God's will.

Point blank: medical and scientific discoveries don't overrule morality, and my moral ideals are based on the Bible - the Word of God. Period. End of story.


redngold
 
bezoar
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:00 am

A Christian's witness comes from the heart. However, the foundations upon which Christians frame their witness and form their opinions should be based on the scriptures. I thank Allstarflyer and Redngold for their contributions, and for using scripture in their responses. I think you guys used them well.

Though we rely on the scriptures, we're admittedly challenged as to how to apply them appropriately to our lives. This is one of the main reasons why we go to church, study the Bible, and seek its truth.

Of course, anyone can read the Bible, but theyÕll likely garner only a superficial sense of the truth if they donÕt first have faith in Christ. For me reading the Bible without faith was like reading a strange language. Many, if not all, of those who come to Christ experience an incredible revelation whereby they understand what other Christians had been saying to them.

Certainly, believers can be just as guilty of taking scripture out of context, and they can also error by applying it inaccurately or inconsistently to their lives. Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean all the truths are revealed in one instant. Nor does it mean that they are suddenly Christ-like in all aspects of their lives. We are works in progress. The proper attitude of a disciple is one of humility, but one of trust in Christ and the Word.

When Christians fail to accept the entire package of ChristÕs teachings it undermines the Christian presence, but more importantly it undermines their own faith. Christians can certainly be guilty of picking and choosing which the truths to cling to, ignoring those that are particularly convicting or difficult. One can read the Sermon on Mount and find many such concepts that are difficult to incorporate into our lives.

Christ ruffled the feathers of many. He instructed His disciples to go out and tell people to repent, which means to turn away from sin. In John 14:6 Jesus says, ÒI am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Ó This has been difficult for many people to digest, to say the least.

IÕve struggled with the homosexual issue primarily because IÕve found it difficult to say that in MY opinion that it's aberrant. Furthermore, if it is aberrant, I canÕt say that in my opinion that itÕs one of a moral or biological nature. I simply donÕt have the knowledge on my own to make such a statement. I've heard nothing from anyone in the multitude of threads on this topic (nor in the medical literature) that convinces me that anyone else knows, either.

However, I can say that the Bible expresses a rather clear and firm stand on the issue. The Bible places homosexuality squarely amongst the other sins, and in doing so, it infers that one engages in homosexual practices by choice and that it is wrong in the eyes of the Lord. To echo that IS the proper Christian position.

For anyone to come to Christ they must first realize that they need Christ. They have to realize that there is something lacking in their heart and impure in their lives that they canÕt fix. This is the most difficult step, as we all have varying degrees of pride that we donÕt want to let go.

We want to create our own worlds, make our own truth, and believe that we are in control. Often it isnÕt until weÕre knocked to our knees that we accept that thereÕs really little over which we have domain. Maybe then, if we have any wisdom left, we seek God.

It seems that the efforts of the gay community basically aim for their orientation to be considered normal. In a Biblical sense, they want to have homosexuality removed from the list of sins. They want to hang on to their lifestyles, and raise them up as if their behaviors were no less sinful than heterosexual relations.

The problem is, of course, that even heteros are sinful. Most of us heteros don't want to 'come out of the closet' with our sin, unlike those who are openly gay. We are not proud of our sin, and some of us may be shocked that anyone would be proud of theirs.

This is a matter to be ultimately taken up with God. You may be reassured that He is loving and merciful, and welcomes all who seek Him, even those who have turned their backs on Him (and worse). However, know that He is also all-knowing, just, and pure. You will therefore not be able to disguise sin as something different.

But that goes for all of us. We cannot make ourselves free of sin, nor can we hide our sin from God. It is why we see that we need a Savior, and cling to Christ in all of our imperfection.

We have so great a joy and reassurance in our redemption by Christ that we want to share it with others. That, in addition to Jesus instructing his followers to share the Good News, is why the rest of you folks have to put up with the more vocal Christians, even if we sometimes don't do it as persuasively as Christ could do himself.

However, there were those who even turned away from Christ during His ministry on earth. I take some small degree of comfort in that as well. But not much, though.

For Christ said "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." (Matthew 18:12-15)

Peace.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 188):
people looking for any excuse to justify behavior

If they weren't being persecuted, there'd be nothing to "justify"
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:47 am

There is one big question that needs to be answered: Does the literal-belief position bring more happiness, more enlightenment, more integrity and more truth to the world in this matter (or in any other)?

And as much as I accept and support many tenets of christianity, this question simply cannot be answered with a sincere "yes".

The literal belief in the biblical passages quoted above has consistently brought more misery, more darkness, more self-denial and more lies to the world.

It is a diseased and corrupted appendix that needs to be discarded if there should really be truth to the spirit of christianity, not just hollow lip service without actual substance.
 
scamp
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:48 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 137):
At the end of my duties I would join them where they are sitting and welcome them to our church just as I would with any new person or visitor. I simply cannot put levels to sin. I believe that God sees all sin in the same way. So if homosexuality really is a sin and I were to judge a homosexual then I would also have to judge a person who tells a lie or speeds while driving in the exact same way. We are told not to judge or else we will be judged. That doesn't mean I have a disregard for what is right or wrong because we are to take a stand on those things.

Simply put, I will try and look at each individual I meet as a human being who is loved by God. I believe God wants a relationship with each person. God has commanded me to LOVE each person. I will simply offer my friendship and support in any way that I can. It is up to each of us individually to discover what God thinks about our lifestyles and then deal with Him directly about it. If anyone really cares what God thinks then the only way to find out is to read the Bible and to pray directly to God. We can learn from each other but going directly to the source is the only way to get the best answers.

I chose to LOVE.

CurtisMan's comments, some of which I have copied here, had a great impact on me, reminding me of a very close friend that I had many years ago in college who had a life-changing impact on the way I was living and behaving at the time. I would like to say that I became a very different individual from the time that I met my friend, Ken, and in some respects it did. Of course, I was still a very immature boy of 20 at the time, but the one thing I did learn from Ken, and I believe it was just through Ken and the message was from God, is that the most important thing we can do is love one another. Our pursuit of earthly gain and power in whatever form we are seeking will ultimately destroy us. One can quote chapter and verse of the Bible until the end of time, but I will never believe that God gave me my sexual orientation for a reason. To me, to say that gay people are sinners only spreads hate. I hear "love the sinner hate the sin" so much that it makes me ill sometimes. Because I believe that as a flawed human being we often forget to differentiate between the sin and the sinner and begin to equate the two. I think there are ministers and "men of God" and even laypeople in the world that don't realize the ideas they put in some people's minds when the condemn in strong and hateful words how God hates gay people and how they are child molesters and abominations before the Lord. I don't believe, and you will never convince me otherwise, that God sees any of His creation as an abomination. We may feel shock and horror and repulsion at some of the actions our fellow man may commit, but I don't think God sees us as we see one another. Not one of us is a mistake. Len reminded me of a friend that made me see life in another light, one of God's love that I often forget about when I get caught up in the world. When you really feel love, especially God's love, there is no other feeling quite like that. I really forget about that often, and I need constant reminding. You certainly never want to feel anything else once God's love is felt. All the hate-filled preaching about how homosexuals are sinners will never change the fact of unconditional love. Len's message was one of love and acceptance and it truly touched my heart. Maybe it's God speaking through Len reminding me that with Him anything is possible. It's all about the love folks, and if you don't feel that, I am truly sad for you.
 
bezoar
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 191):
Does the literal-belief position bring more happiness, more enlightenment, more integrity and more truth to the world in this matter (or in any other)?

The Bible is a mix of history, parables, songs, allegories, and letters. Some things are meant to be taken literally, and some figuratively. I believe it is all inspired by God. I believe that Jesus was God incarnate and was completely resurrected on our behalf. Do I fall into your category of having a 'literal-belief position'?

For the Christian, this world is not the Kingdom that we hope for, and I will know pain for as long as I'm alive in this world. Whether or not one can truly have 'happiness' in this world is highly debatable.

I would say that my faith specifically provides me more direction, fulfillment, and meaning to all aspects of my life. I would say that through my faith I have more integrity and know truth like I never knew before.

I apologize if I have not answered your question, but I can only give my own testimony.


Quoting Klaus (Reply 191):
The literal belief in the biblical passages quoted above has consistently brought more misery, more darkness, more self-denial and more lies to the world.

Are you saying 'brought more,' or were you going to say 'brought more than.....'? If the former, I doubt that any Christian has made it through life perfectly emulating Christ. Anything life lived imperfectly brings more suffering into the world.

Do you want me to say I've brought more suffering myself? Yes, I will admit that as much as it pains me to do so. I've already confessed as much to God. (Am I better than a homosexual because I am heterosexual? No!)

Has the amount of suffering that I've dispensed lessened since I accepted Christ? I pray to God that it is so, otherwise the transformation for which I dearly hope and on which I have come to EXPECT is a false hope, and my faith is empty claim. (And you win what is otherwise a meaningless debate.)

But, the only one who knows the answer to this last question is God Himself, so I don't fear the judgment of men.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 152):

Toulouse, I'm quite what my friend said has been proven over and over again in this thread alone. Patricularly by the delightful Taca320 (aka the Costa Rican Inquisition), who can ever be relied on to to a bang-up copy-paste job. No opinion of his own, however.
 
JeepBoy
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:18 pm

Jeezum crowe!

I'm seeing "reach out to homosexuals" websites advertised on this thread and I'm totally fucking offended.

Ditch the christian bullshit that most of us that have intelligent brains in our heads and know what a crock of shit it all is.

*reach out to homosexuals*

Yeah reach out for what? My dick?

And another web ad on here:

"preachit.org"

Oooohh. A brain scrubbing session for anyone? Or a "oops the soap fell off the gap.. " session for a bunch of fundies?

Bring back the lions (or brissielions as he's a spunk) and lets have a monster trucky rally going postal on the christiann fundies.

*yay*

Oh and include any clowns and mimes as well!

*yay*

beep beep its jeep boy

clowns=microvomit
 
atrude777
Posts: 4645
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:24 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):

1. What would you do if your son or daughter came to you and told you they were gay?

Nothing, they are gay, it isnt a cause of celebration or dissapointment. I will say ok, thanks for telling me, how was school. If I do sense they are afraid of other things i of course will talk to them about it, if they choose to. But honestly, it should NOT be a huge deal.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):

2. Do you believe that these "gay christian camps" can really change the child's sexuality?

I do not think it will make them become straight, but it could possibly damage their self esteem and make them feel so quilty of themselves, and they could become ashamed, THAT I believe is possible.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
3. What do you think about the gay civil rights movement?

I think it is a different type of movement, it is a movement of rights, I agree with some parts and I disagree with others.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
4. Do you think that homosexuals should or could go to church without people telling them how wrong they are?

They should be able to, church is a place to pray and be among other human being you are not there to be judged by people, you are there to be judged by god.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):

5. If you were to pray for a homosexual, what would you pray about?

The same as a Straight person, health, love, happiness, just a good, life.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):

6. What do you wish would happen to the homosexuals?

Nothing, let them live life as they want to, peacefully and without any cause of concern.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
7. Do you think that the increase of people "coming out of the closet" is going to be a downfall of our society, or do you think that it is okay and just part of an emerging cultural group.

I don;t consider it a group or a culture or anything. If people are coming out, it is because they are finally realizing and accepting whom they are. No need for concern here folks.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):

8. If I walked into church holding the hand of another man, say my lover, what would you think?

"Oh that is so sweet, they look cute together" or "How lucky they have each other , im glad they are happy with each other"

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
9. Do you think churches will ever accept homosexuality as just being human and embrace homosexuals in the church without telling them that they are sinners? Or saying things like, "We are all sinners?" Because by saying that, as a Christian, you are really just saying that the homosexual lifestyle is a sin, albeit in a less agressive fashion.

Good question, it will be a long and tedious process,but I think it CAN be done.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
10. When the church tries and change an individual from being a homosexual to a straight person, does the church take into account the psychological impacts that would affect the "gay Christian" individual.

Not sure. Do not know enough here to say.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
11. Finally, how should one who is a Christian but gay as well have unbiased fellowship with other Christians.

Just be friends.


I honestly do not believe in labeling. A person should be able to live life as they please, without any worry of labelism (sorry if it is not a word). By labeling one as straight, gay or bisexual, you are seperating people, and THAT is not right. Men should be able to appreciate a mans body w.o worrying about being made fun, just like a man can appreciate a womans body w/o being made fun off and all over etc etc. I have a lot of gay friends, and honestly they are NO different then my straight friends. My Gay friends have not ONCE put their "belifies" on being gay torwards me and such. They see no reason to. Even when people ask my sexual oprientation, I say are you asking me to label myself? They say no. I said yes you are. The fact is we are people, we should be looked upon as whom we are, not who we have sex with in bed or whom we kiss and hold hands with.

Alex
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 175):
Do you mind telling us how old are you?

I don't mind. I'm just... Older and wiser. And I'm proud of that.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 182):
Its OK being wrong.

But it's better to be right. At least, I prefer that "feeling".

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 182):
But you dont.

How do you know that. You don't even know me. That's why you are wrong: because you are making [now and before] false assumptions of others based in commentaries from a chat room or an internet forum. And that's why I never ever judge you as an Engineer. Because I simply don't know you.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 182):
Im not, im catholic. I go to church every sunday.

Going to Church every single doesn't make you Catholic. Accomplish with God's will does.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 184):
TACA, i think i am going to start calling you "the colander".

Call me whatever you want: The Costa Rican Inquisition, The Colander... Judge me the way you want. I prefer continue to calling you with respect, and also prefer not judge you, not now, not in the future, whether you care about it or not, as I learned from "our" Mother Church.

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 173):
Why can't people get married into same-gender unions though?

Under the Roman Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general, because the "matrimony" is a sacrament created for a man and a woman.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 194):
Patricularly by the delightful Taca320 (aka the Costa Rican Inquisition),

Thanks a lot. You're delightful too.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 194):
No opinion of his own, however.

Nor of your own either.

Naugh said. I will rest now.
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexua

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 197):
Under the Roman Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general, because the "matrimony" is a sacrament created for a man and a woman.

Yes, TACA, but why? What is this based on? Where do you find teaching that states that marriage is only for opposite-gender couples?
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Christians, Give Us Your Opinions On Homosexuality

Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:35 pm

MATRIMONY gives the graces needed to live a Christian married life.

Why aren't the priests of the Roman Catholic church allowed to marry? Based on the above answer, Jesus wants to sanctify, make holy the lawful union of a man and woman. And since all Christians are priests then they most certainly can marry. Also remember Peter was married and the Roman Catholics teach that he was the first pope. In Matt. 8:14,15 "And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them."

Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb." Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its "mystery," its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal "in the Lord" in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.

"The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws.... God himself is the author of marriage." The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity, some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life."

God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator's eyes. and this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "and God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.'"

Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."The woman, "flesh of his flesh," i.e., his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."


Every man experiences evil around him and within himself. This experience makes itself felt in the relationships between man and woman. Their union has always been threatened by discord, a spirit of domination, infidelity, jealousy, and conflicts that can escalate into hatred and separation. This disorder can manifest itself more or less acutely, and can be more or less overcome according to the circumstances of cultures, eras, and individuals, but it does seem to have a universal character.

According to faith the disorder we notice so painfully does not stem from the nature of man and woman, nor from the nature of their relations, but from sin. As a break with God, the first sin had for its first consequence the rupture of the original communion between man and woman. Their relations were distorted by mutual recriminations; their mutual attraction, the Creator's own gift, changed into a relationship of domination and lust; and the beautiful vocation of man and woman to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work.

Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of the grace that God in his infinite mercy never refuses them Without his help man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them "in the beginning."

In his mercy God has not forsaken sinful man. the punishments consequent upon sin, "pain in childbearing" and toil "in the sweat of your brow," also embody remedies that limit the damaging effects of sin. After the fall, marriage helps to overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit of one's own pleasure, and to open oneself to the other, to mutual aid and to self-giving.

Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of marriage developed under the pedagogy of the old law. In the Old Testament the polygamy of patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord's words it still carries traces of man's "hardness of heart" which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives.

Seeing God's covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love, the prophets prepared the Chosen People's conscience for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of marriage. The books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of marriage and to the fidelity and tenderness of spouses. Tradition has always seen in the Song of Solomon a unique expression of human love, a pure reflection of God's love - a love "strong as death" that "many waters cannot quench."

The nuptial covenant between God and his people Israel had prepared the way for the new and everlasting covenant in which the Son of God, by becoming incarnate and giving his life, has united to himself in a certain way all mankind saved by him, thus preparing for "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."

On the threshold of his public life Jesus performs his first sign - at his mother's request - during a wedding feast. The Church attaches great importance to Jesus' presence at the wedding at Cana. She sees in it the confirmation of the goodness of marriage and the proclamation that thenceforth marriage will be an efficacious sign of Christ's presence.

In his preaching Jesus unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of man and woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning permission given by Moses to divorce one's wife was a concession to the hardness of hearts. The matrimonial union of man and woman is indissoluble: God himself has determined it "what therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder."

This unequivocal insistence on the indissolubility of the marriage bond may have left some perplexed and could seem to be a demand impossible to realize. However, Jesus has not placed on spouses a burden impossible to bear, or too heavy - heavier than the Law of Moses. By coming to restore the original order of creation disturbed by sin, he himself gives the strength and grace to live marriage in the new dimension of the Reign of God. It is by following Christ, renouncing themselves, and taking up their crosses that spouses will be able to "receive" the original meaning of marriage and live it with the help of Christ. This grace of Christian marriage is a fruit of Christ's cross, the source of all Christian life.

This is what the Apostle Paul makes clear when he says: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her," adding at once: "'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church."

The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist. Christian marriage in its turn becomes an efficacious sign, the sacrament of the covenant of Christ and the Church. Since it signifies and communicates grace, marriage between baptized persons is a true sacrament of the New Covenant.

Christ is the center of all Christian life. the bond with him takes precedence over all other bonds, familial or social. From the very beginning of the Church there have been men and women who have renounced the great good of marriage to follow the Lamb wherever he goes, to be intent on the things of the Lord, to seek to please him, and to go out to meet the Bridegroom who is coming. Christ himself has invited certain persons to follow him in this way of life, of which he remains the model:

"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

Virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is an unfolding of baptismal grace, a powerful sign of the supremacy of the bond with Christ and of the ardent expectation of his return, a sign which also recalls that marriage is a reality of this present age which is passing away.

Both the sacrament of Matrimony and virginity for the Kingdom of God come from the Lord himself. It is he who gives them meaning and grants them the grace which is indispensable for living them out in conformity with his will. Esteem of virginity for the sake of the kingdom and the Christian understanding of marriage are inseparable, and they reinforce each other:

Whoever denigrates marriage also diminishes the glory of virginity. Whoever praises it makes virginity more admirable and resplendent. What appears good only in comparison with evil would not be truly good. the most excellent good is something even better than what is admitted to be good.

Cf: With the Roman Catholic Church Cathechism.

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