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777236ER
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Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:43 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4173760.stm

Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
air2gxs
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

Well that sentence makes no sense.

What you appear to be saying is that all religions are the cause of all evil on earth?

Nice. Generalizations and streotypes. That's the way to live your life.
 
MYT332
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 1):
What you appear to be saying is that all religions are the cause of all evil on earth?

Well if you think about it he has a point wouldn't you say?
One Life, Live it.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

Sure if it makes you feel better, but one religion in particular seems to have the overwhelming monopoly on "crazy" and "fascist" right now.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

Oh, come on now. It isn't the religions, it's the people. You're right in that with all the stupid, evil, sadistic things people have done, they've often excused it because of some religious adherence. Some religions (actually, in the case of Christians, Christ) shouldn't be held responsible for the stupidity and lawlessness that some people practice, although, there have been religions at times, of course, that have preached violence, terror and hatred. It's the people, though, as long we hold people individually responsible. It's just that I see that this thread could boil to a point where there might be some Bible-bashing (and, granted, there have been plenty past and present who have done wrong and used the Bible to defend themselves).

-R
Living the American Dream
 
zeekiel
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

It's funny because for every man and woman that turns towards religion there's a another who rejects it in some way by becoming a non-religious individual (be it an atheist, agnostic and so on). I mean in this part of the world (AU and NZ), the numbers turning away from religion or conservative religious beliefs is going up quite strongly.

I rejected religion because there is nothing I can take from it that I don't already know or respect. There seems to be piles of contradictions and people misuse the religion.

Take the terrorists causing all the garbage in the world. Going on about decadence and our oversexualised society.

Take Brian Tamaki preaching his oddball messages and telling people to tithe their 10% while living an extremely comfortable life while most of his congregation is not in the so called "average" income bracket.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
It isn't the religions, it's the people.

Depends on who interprets what.

Look I think the prime example is when people look at religious scripture and see that it is "illegal" under religion to be a homosexual, perform abortions, be friends with "infidels" and I could list many more.

Problem is scripture is quoted out of context so it says somewhere to be tolerant and to reject infidels as evil and sentence them to the chopping block. So what do you do then? It's a major contradiction which unfortunately can't be reconciled. If someone can do so, please call me up and give me an idea.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-08-23 03:28:41]
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redngold
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:00 am

Nice flamebait, 777236ER.  sarcastic  You've really outdone yourself this time.

You've created your own religion of intolerance and hatred of anyone who believes anything other than what you think. Your own intellect and your own thoughts are the gospel; your mind the god you worship; your body, however you treat it, is the temple of your own spirit; and nobody can tell you that you have ever done anything wrong.

Enjoy it while it lasts. You only have this earthly life.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 5):
Look I think the prime example is when people look at religious scripture and see that it is "illegal" under religion to be a homosexual, perform abortions, be friends with "infidels" and I could list many more.

Problem is scripture is quoted out of context so it says somewhere to be tolerant and to reject infidels as evil and sentence them to the chopping block. So what do you do then? It's a major contradiction which unfortunately can't be reconciled. If someone can do so, please call me up and give me an idea.

According to Scripture, what you have listed is what is referred to as sinful, with the exception of abortion (when the mother's medical health is not involved) which could/should be illegal under the law.

You're right, though - the Bible is often quoted out of context and those who do that are wrong for doing so. But there's no contradictions, and feel free to ask about any you believe are there.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

Stalin and Mao being such religious types as examples.

You're damn near as sick as Rudolph.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Just goes to show that all religions are unnatural, fascist and patronising roots of pretty much every evil thing man has done.

I'm sure than even you know that you posted a bunch of crap. What a pity that you are unable to engage in a serious argument about this crazy guy and the crimes he committed. Instead, you chose to spill your hateful views and generalizations. Shame...

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 2):
Well if you think about it he has a point wouldn't you say?

No, he doesn't. To blame religion as a whole for the crimes of a single lunatic is non-sense.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
mrniji
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 2):
Well if you think about it he has a point wouldn't you say?

Alex, I disagree. It depends how serious you take the moral values that are delivered. Too often, people instrumentalize religion and use it as median for their goals and endeavors. Just seeing religion here in Delhi around me EVERY DAY, and the PEACEFUl practice and wonderful practice of values within the society fascinates me often. I as Hindu love to go to the Mosque/Shrine here in Nizammudin and see how a faith can influence the well-behavior of the followers!  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
777236ER
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Sure if it makes you feel better, but one religion in particular seems to have the overwhelming monopoly on "crazy" and "fascist" right now.

Perhaps, but it's not like any religion is particularly innocent in that respect, is it?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
It isn't the religions, it's the people.

The religion is created by the people, and entices people to do acts as above. Hence the religion is at fault.

Quoting Bhmbaglock (Reply 8):
Stalin and Mao being such religious types as examples.

Hitler too. Compare religious dogma with theirs and see the similarities.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 9):
What a pity that you are unable to engage in a serious argument about this crazy guy and the crimes he committed. Instead, you chose to spill your hateful views and generalizations.

The serious argument would be...what? The same one Muslims use whenever someone murders people in the name of Islam? 'Oh, he's not REALLY a Muslim. He only says he is, but he's not. Trust us.'

Right. The guy justified his acts using Christianity, just like Islamic terrorists justify their acts using Islam. Both religions are the ones at fault.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 6):
You've created your own religion of intolerance and hatred of anyone who believes anything other than what you think. Your own intellect and your own thoughts are the gospel; your mind the god you worship; your body, however you treat it, is the temple of your own spirit; and nobody can tell you that you have ever done anything wrong.

Ohh, deep! I don't hate people who think differently from me; I do hate people who murder other people. When they use religion to justify it, like countless millions have done over the years, it makes me wonder about religion.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 9):
To blame religion as a whole for the crimes of a single lunatic is non-sense.

But it's not, is it? Whether it's the Teutonic Knights, Islamic terrorism, Eric Rudolph, or even the Holocaust, religion and religious-type dogma is the one thing these barbaric acts have in common.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N1120A
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Sure if it makes you feel better, but one religion in particular seems to have the overwhelming monopoly on "crazy" and "fascist" right now.

Actually, it is an Oligopoly where the market is covered by the Jerusalem Religions, all 3 of them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
I do hate people who murder other people. When they use religion to justify it, like countless millions have done over the years, it makes me wonder about religion.

You can say the same thing about ANYTHING that people feel strongly about. Millions of people over the years have been killed for love as well - do you condemn love as well?

The religion is not at fault, unless the religion tells people to kill people - of which there are unfortunately a few. In Christianity, it is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ, but as with all things, some people CHOOSE to pick out bits that turn them on and ignore the rest. The responsibility is with the person, not the religion.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MYT332
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 10):
Alex, I disagree.

Well that's fine, each to their own. All I was saying is that religion causes a lot of shit put bluntly. You can't deny that.
One Life, Live it.
 
Barcode
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:38 pm

Quote:
In Christianity, it is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ, but as with all things, some people CHOOSE to pick out bits that turn them on and ignore the rest. The responsibility is with the person, not the religion.

I am afraid it is not abundantly clear that Christ only teaches positive things. Jesus says things like:

- Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.--Mt.10:21

- For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.--Mt.10:35-36

- The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

- For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

And hundreds more examples.

I appreciate that you will say such remarks must be taken in context, or interpreted appropriately. Except it does seem rather strange how an all-perfect being has managed to produce a book with such (understandably) conflicting interpretations. It is also strange why positive messages are taken literally, but the numerous references to say, wiping out entire cities, killing women and children, burning in hell and so on are somehow metaphorical.

It's really not a good advert for somebody coming to Christianity for the first time, and without any prior assumptions. Most people do not possess a detailed knowledge of the text, and I find it unreasonable to blame them for taking what is written, at face value.

Of course, the final responsibility must lie with the individual; but there is little doubt in my mind, that books like The Bible, are capable of pushing an already unstable individual over the edge. If one is looking to justify one's acts, then The Bible seems a good place to begin.
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting Barcode (Reply 15):
- Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.--Mt.10:21

You give a good example of how things can be taken out of context. The whole passage is part of Jesus' instructions to his disciples in their ministry, warning them of the trials ahead, and reads:

17: Beware of men; for they will deliver you up to councils, and flog you in their synagogues,
18: and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles.
19: When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour;
20: for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21: Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;
22: and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

One thing to remember (and this is something that Christian Fundementalists have forgotten) is that the Bible NOT the word of God. It is a collection of books INSPIRED by God, and written by man. There is a difference.

The Bible was written by dozens of different men over a period of some 1500 years, who wrote their own experiences, or who wrote what they had heard from others, sometimes litterally, sometimes alegorically or in parables. And as man is not perfect, errors and inconsistencies may exist in the Bible. It is up to the individual to read, sometimes between the lines, and to try to make sense of the concepts conveyed via an imperfect medium.

Whereas Islam teaches that the Koran is actually the litteral words of God, with Mohammed acting as essentially a stenographer. As God is perfect, his work must also be perfect (each and every word), and therefore no part of the Koran can be called into question.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
duke
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:37 pm

I am an Orthodox Christian. I believe that the devil and his pride are the root of all evil. My faith is an antidote to evil.

My faith condemns terrorism.

My faith says to love not only your friends but also your enemies.

My faith condemns stealing, murder, aggression, dishonesty, hatred...

My faith does not like war.

My faith will not force anyone to join it or live by its principles.
 
Barcode
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:57 pm

Cfalk:

Quote:
One thing to remember (and this is something that Christian Fundementalists have forgotten) is that the Bible NOT the word of God. It is a collection of books INSPIRED by God, and written by man. There is a difference.

Then I can only conclude god's inspiration is faulty. Again, it is strange that an all-perfect being would allow his words to be distorted by imperfect men.

I also do not see how quoting the entire passage makes what I pointed out seem any better. It is still a bloody, gory picture. You just cannot dismiss every part of The Bible that contains such phrases as metaphorical or out of context etc.

And then you say:

Quote:
As God is perfect, his work must also be perfect (each and every word)

Obviously, something has gone wrong with The Bible.

I'm not buying it, you're asking me to believe that god only decided to show up two thousand years ago (very recent), and his abilities seem limited since he has allowed people to be inspired in all kinds of negative ways. For an all-perfect being, this god of the bible is remarkably lazy. Letting millions kill one another, all because he couldn't bother to get his message across in a way that most people could agree upon.

I appreciate that you seem sincere, and you have drawn a positive understanding from The Bible; but this is not the case for many, and to dismiss it as entirely the fault of the individual seems strange. This is a problem I seem to encounter with a few Christians. It can be summed up as:

- If something is good, then thank god.
- If something is bad, then blame the individual.

That indicates cognitive dissonance to me, an inability to critically examine The Bible, and admit, that maybe, just maybe, god's inspiration has not always been manifested in a positive fashion.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Bhmbaglock (Reply 8):
Stalin and Mao being such religious types as examples.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao and e.g. Kim Il Jong set up their own substitute religions with themselves as quasi gods.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
Perhaps, but it's not like any religion is particularly innocent in that respect, is it?

True. However some religions went through the Dark Ages hundreds of years ago and some are going through them today.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
777236ER
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
However some religions went through the Dark Ages hundreds of years ago and some are going through them today.

True. Although, based on their history, isn't Islam at the same point in its 'development' as Christianity was during the Crusades?

Quoting Duke (Reply 17):
My faith condemns terrorism.

My faith says to love not only your friends but also your enemies.

My faith condemns stealing, murder, aggression, dishonesty, hatred...

My faith does not like war.

My faith will not force anyone to join it or live by its principles.

The problem is people, who claim to be Christians just like you, do evil acts in the name of Christianity. Ditto every other religion. As much as Muslims say 'Muslims aren't terrorists', it only takes one person who says they're blowing people up in the name of Islam to make it false.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
redngold
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
it makes me wonder about religion.

I don't think you wonder at all. You've made your opinions very well known here. You resist any attempt at inquiry into religion or religious principles. There is no wonder, only bitter resentment.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
True. Although, based on their history, isn't Islam at the same point in its 'development' as Christianity was during the Crusades?

Absolutely. I tried to make that point a number of times here over the past few years. My question: It took Christianity some 600-700 years to grow out of that "phase". How long will we wait before Islam does the same? And will that happen before someone gets his hands on a WMD and sets it off in the name of Allah?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Although, based on their history, isn't Islam at the same point in its 'development' as Christianity was during the Crusades?

Exactly, coincidence? I think not.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
bezoar
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting Barcode (Reply 18):
I also do not see how quoting the entire passage makes what I pointed out seem any better.

Considering the context is vital to interpreting Scripture. You presented the quote as if Christ was commanding others to do these things, but he was warning about what others would do in response to hearing the Gospel. (I sense a fair amount of 'gnashing of teeth' amonst the atheists here.)

Yes, there is much violence in the history of mankind. It is appropriate that much of it would be described in the Bible as much of the Bible is historical.

The interaction between God and man goes back much farther than 2,000 years ago. It started with the creation of man himself, followed by man's rebellion and disobedience which distanced man from his creator, and inviting everything into this world that we abhore: sin and death, including disease, murder, hatred, war, bigotry, etc.

The Bible also recounts the interactions between God and Moses, God's presence amongst the Israelites, and many accounts of God's being involved in the lives of His people under the original Covenant.

Christ brought the New Covenant, and the reason He came was to save us. He did not come to judge or to punish, however, he did call us all to repentance.

However, the next time He comes will most definitely be to judge and to punish. He warns of the consequences. God is merciful and just, but He wants us to know that he is not endlessly patient.

It is man that misunderstands God and his relationship to God. It is us who get it wrong, not God. If you want to call man's attempt to understand God 'religion,' then our efforts will always be limited.

However, Christians believe that God has spoken quite clearly, both through the Bible and through Christ, as to what God wants from us. The problem is that it often falls on deaf ears, both deaf Christians and non-believers alike. We still get it wrong. Even Jesus' disciples were clueless as they were following Him around. Go ahead and blame 'religion' or blame man, but don't blame God.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
GDB
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:59 am

I've always regarded fascism and Communism as modern religions, they've got the icons, the rules that adherents have to live by, the overwhelming need to control.
But they came about in the industrial age, thereby allowing slaughter on a far larger scale.

However, this case is a stark reminder that not all terrorists are Islamic, this guy was basically a 'mini me' Tim McVeigh.
The KKK were basically a Christian terror group, but they preferred lynching to bombs, mostly anyway.

The US is more vunerable to extreme Christian terrorism, since what is regarded as an unusual level of (mis)use of Bible politics, compared with other Western Christian nations (who have been so for a lot longer, with the bloody history to prove it), is more and more prevalent there.
Almost always to push a particular political agenda, in that respect those that do so are little different to all those crooked (and wealthy) Tele-evangelists you have.

It is well known that Tony Blair is a Christian, but he has never invoked it in his political life, as he knows the mass derision it would create, even amongst most UK Christians.

Some say the Sept 11th was 'blowback' (however insane and unjustified) from US Foreign policy.
Can we say that this guy, and McVeigh, were blowback from elements of US domestic politics?
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 22):
You resist any attempt at inquiry into religion or religious principles

No no, I'm more than open to it. However, any critisism of religion yeilds the same 'but my religion and my faith are fine, it's peoples' misinterpretation that's the problem ' which is tosh.

Religion and religious principles, as you call them, have caused more suffering than anything else. Religion goes against nearly every human trait. It curtails freedom of speech and ideas. It curtails sex. It curtails scientific enquiry. It even curtails life.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 22):
There is no wonder, only bitter resentment.

I resent religion on behalf of the countless millions who have died at its hands.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 25):
Go ahead and blame 'religion' or blame man, but don't blame God.

What a surprise, never god's fault, is it?! Religion can do anything, and god is never blamed. Even within religions, god is never blamed! God always has 'a plan' - that's why he gave your child cancer, or set fire to your house. When anything bad happens, it's always the fault of man, or the fault of 'misinterpretation', it's never the fault of god is it? When religion and religious-type beliefs go wrong, it's never their or god's fault.

Everyone say the Nazis were evil. What's never said is that the dogmatic, hypocritical and fascist way of thinking behind Nazi ideals is evil. In the same way individuals who kill thanks to religion are always called evil, never the dognatic, hypocritical and fascist way of thinking behind their ideals.
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aa757first
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
One thing to remember (and this is something that Christian Fundementalists have forgotten) is that the Bible NOT the word of God. It is a collection of books INSPIRED by God, and written by man. There is a difference.

I was just ready to say exactly that.

Yes, there are the Muslims that fly airplanes into buildings in the name of Allah, and there are the Christians that blow up abortion clinics in the name of God. But for every terrorist or misguided "follower" (I use the quotes because they are usually excommunicated after their acts), there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of followers that maintain peaceful lifestyles.

AAndrew
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 28):
But for every terrorist or misguided "follower" (I use the quotes because they are usually excommunicated after their acts), there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of followers that maintain peaceful lifestyles.

Remember that there were countless Nazis who never murdered any Jews, gay people or gypsies.

Simply because religion is not practised to its most extreme extent by the majority doesn't make it alright.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
Religion and religious principles, as you call them, have caused more suffering than anything else. Religion goes against nearly every human trait. It curtails freedom of speech and ideas. It curtails sex. It curtails scientific enquiry. It even curtails life.

I would add that it also promotes moral behaviour (the 10 commandments), promotes self restraint (the Seven Deadly Sins), encourages people to look after their family instead of running away when you see someone with bigger tits, and generally to become a better person. "To be a man for others" is the motto we learned in Jesuit school. You won't get that in public school, would you?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
Hitler too. Compare religious dogma with theirs and see the similarities.

Don't guess you got my sarcasm as Hitler was the one of the three who tried to cultivate religion as a tool for his despotism; the other two mostly tried to eliminate religion seeing it as competition so to speak.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
redngold
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):

No no, I'm more than open to it.

So that's why you attempted to quash an entirely civil debate with your post (#52) in the following thread?
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/911551/

Nuh uhh... I don't think so. You always come in and try to destroy civil debates with "God doesn't exist" and "inspiration leads to flawed transcription" and other stuff. You have no faith in anything but yourself. Prove me wrong - e-mail me via my profile. I'd like to hear about the things you *do* believe in, if there is anything but "my way is the right way, and I believe in me."


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
zeekiel
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 30):
I would add that it also promotes moral behaviour (the 10 commandments), promotes self restraint (the Seven Deadly Sins), encourages people to look after their family instead of running away when you see someone with bigger tits

Religion has these tenets such as the 10 commandments and the 7 deadly sins.

Good. That's fine.

But why write a whole book about so much other stuff that can be interpreted in nine to a dozen different ways? Aren't these tenets just what people need? Just two simple tenets.

Why write a book with so much (too much) information that is subject to not only the interpretation of those who read it, but those who write it?

Religion does encourage moral behaviour. You can't doubt that. But do all it's followers practice it's goodness. I mean if I got a religious man and a non-religious man and put a sexy female form in front of them, who is to say which one would jump ship?

I learned a phrase "Don't do anything to someone that you wouldn't want done to yourself". I got that from public school.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:59 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 33):
But why write a whole book about so much other stuff that can be interpreted in nine to a dozen different ways? Aren't these tenets just what people need? Just two simple tenets.

Good question. My answer is, to provide context. WHY should I obey these guidelines if I don't feel like it? That is contained in the understanding of the entire faith around it. Otherwise it's just a bunch of quotes that you can say, "Yeah, right" and go on with whatever you were doing.

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 33):
Religion does encourage moral behaviour. You can't doubt that. But do all it's followers practice it's goodness. I mean if I got a religious man and a non-religious man and put a sexy female form in front of them, who is to say which one would jump ship?

A fundemental concept of Judeo-Christianity is that Man is imperfect, and he has been given a choice in all things to choose between good and evil (the Garden of Eden story). You are free to chose which, and the choices that you make will determine your fate on Judgement Day. I would say that a non-religious (or non-Christian) person that lives his life well and morally has a better chance than, say Jimmy Swaggart - people who wear their religions on their sleeves but break all the rules whenever they can.

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 33):
I learned a phrase "Don't do anything to someone that you wouldn't want done to yourself". I got that from public school.

But where did the school get that? Religion. The Golden Rule is a philosophy from the Bible as well as many other religions.

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowmen. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. --- Judaism: Talmud, Shabbat, 31a

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. --- Zoroastrianism: Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you. --- Brahmanism: Mahabharata, 5:1517

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. --- Buddhism: Udana-Varga 5:18

Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you. --- Confucianism: Analects 15:23

Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss. --- Taoism: T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the Law and the Prophets. --- Christianity: Matthew 7:12

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother what which he desires for himself. --- Islam: Sunnah

*In that it harm none, do as ye will. --- Wicca/Pagan: Wicca Rede 1

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
N1120A
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
It took Christianity some 600-700 years to grow out of that "phase".

So, you are seeing into the future to when christianity grows out of its "phase"

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
How long will we wait before Islam does the same? And will that happen before someone gets his hands on a WMD and sets it off in the name of Allah?

Well, that wasn't racist or anything  sarcastic 
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777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 34):
But where did the school get that? Religion. The Golden Rule is a philosophy from the Bible as well as many other religions.

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowmen. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. --- Judaism: Talmud, Shabbat, 31a

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. --- Zoroastrianism: Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you. --- Brahmanism: Mahabharata, 5:1517

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. --- Buddhism: Udana-Varga 5:18

Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you. --- Confucianism: Analects 15:23

Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss. --- Taoism: T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the Law and the Prophets. --- Christianity: Matthew 7:12

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother what which he desires for himself. --- Islam: Sunnah

*In that it harm none, do as ye will. --- Wicca/Pagan: Wicca Rede 1

And despite that, people have murdered in the name of all those religions.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 36):
And despite that, people have murdered in the name of all those religions.

If I can quote another peice of wisdom, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." The Golden Rule is a good one (which is why so many cultures latched onto it, some people simply choose to ignore it.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 37):
If I can quote another peice of wisdom, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." The Golden Rule is a good one (which is why so many cultures latched onto it, some people simply choose to ignore it.

But this still comes back to blaming individuals who carry out acts in the name of religion, never the religion itself. It's a bit like saying the holocaust was a bad thing carried out by individuals, but Nazi ideas are acceptable in so far as they're only ideas.

When the same sort of dogmatic ideas become the basis of so many problems in the world, then surely the problem is with those type of ideas?
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cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:57 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 38):
But this still comes back to blaming individuals who carry out acts in the name of religion, never the religion itself.

If someone runs a red light and kills someone, do you blame the red light?

If someone breaks the law and commits fraud, do you blame the law?

If someone misread the speed limit signs, or did not understand it, and is caught speeding, he's at fault, right?

As long as the essential teachings of a religion are that you should be good to one another, I don't see how you can blame the religion. Now if some people decide to pick and choose what parts of scripture to learn and what to ignore (chinese menu religion), it is THEIR fault if they end up doing something wrong, like an abortion clinic bomber or a 9/11 hijacker.

I once again come back to the issue discussed before - CONTEXT. If you only take snippets out of the Koran, Bible or whatever scripture, you can get into all sorts of trouble. A good Christian should not only read the Bible cover to cover (and understand it), he should also read Josephus and other contemperary historians to gain an understanding of what was going on at the time, he should understand that Moses wrote Genesis, and as Moses lived in the 15th century BC and Genesis was (by his own writings) many, many generations before, a Christian should understand that he was simply writing down something from oral tradition, which, as we know, is famously innacurate. How many stories do you know that, without actually being written down, can survive being told to 10 different people in sequence and come back without being drastically altered. Now imagine the same but over possibly hundreds of generations.

Context provides a perspective from which we can sniff out the real pearls of wisdom from amongst the filler.

A big issue I have with fundementalists is that many of them refuse to even look at context. Some Christian fundementalists (I had an aunt who was one) was raised to believe that the only book she should ever read was the Bible. And the Islamic fundementalists, notably the Wahabis who fund all the extremist madrasas, believe that the Koran is the only thing that needs to be taught. These madrasas are teaching children that the Koran, a book written 1300 years ago, is the only thing that should be studied, and they are not allowed to try to decipher the context in which it was written, since that would imply that the original message was unclear, and since the Koran is supposedly the actual verbatim word of God, how can that be possible - if God is perfect then his message must be perfectly clear and should need no context, interpretation or deciphering.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:10 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
I once again come back to the issue discussed before - CONTEXT.

To simply say that religion isn't to blame because some people take it out of context is a cop out. Religion is by its very nature entirely personal, whether it's Islamic, Christian or another one. There are in essence 6 billion religions in the world, and the only thing that links them are those that take holy books and holy ideas 'out of context', and use them to kill and maim.

When kids are taught absolutes - as in religious thinking - they grow up resenting those who have different ideas. Kids taught that communism is the only answer have grown up defending it to their (and others) deaths. Kids taught that god is absolute and the existance of god is unquestionable grow up defending it again, sometimes to the death.
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zeekiel
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 34):
But where did the school get that? Religion. The Golden Rule is a philosophy from the Bible as well as many other religions.

Just because a religious script says something, doesn't mean they were the first to come up with the idea. Or that they have the claim on the idea.

I suppose the questions we have to pose to ourselves is:

"Has humankind advanced in the way of love, compassion and empathy in the last 2000 years?"

In some ways yes. In some ways no.

"Has humankind got an inherent sense of morality and goodness that is separate from the influence of religion?"

I leave that up to interpretation.

Cfalk, you are the first religious person I have spoken to that doesn't start trying to convert me away from my heathenism or makes an embarrassing blessing scene (I had one done to me in the middle of a Sydney mall by an evangelical Hillsong girl). Or try to insult my beliefs.

That's the sort of stuff that I really think some other religious people should learn.  Smile

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
cfalk
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 41):
Cfalk, you are the first religious person I have spoken to that doesn't start trying to convert me away from my heathenism or makes an embarrassing blessing scene (I had one done to me in the middle of a Sydney mall by an evangelical Hillsong girl). Or try to insult my beliefs.

Well, all I can say I feel sad about the types of religious people you meet. I feel, like 777236ER said, that religion IS a very personal and unique thing, and and it is up to each one of us to decide how important it will be in our lives. If you want to be Christian, heathen :-P, or worship the grasshoppers, that's entirely up to you. I feel that those who feel the need to convince others to believe in the same things they believe in are those who want reassurance.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:57 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
I feel that those who feel the need to convince others to believe in the same things they believe in are those who want reassurance.

Which is exactly true. The problem with religion is that it's based on belief rather than ideas. Ideas can be changed easily, beliefs cannot. When people with deeply entrenched beliefs start to doubt themselves, they get scared, and so try to convert other people to their beliefs to justify them. It has to be said that in most people with religion have a specific religion not because of thorough examination of all religions and ideas, but because their parents and everyone else has that religion.
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zeekiel
Posts: 398
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RE: Fascist Religious Terrorist Sentenced To Life

Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Well, all I can say I feel sad about the types of religious people you meet.

Of course there are religious people out there who can get into an intelligent conversation or even a relationship (if you're a girl  Smile). But there are some who in a way make religion unappealing to some people with their rants and professed knowledge of everything.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
I feel that those who feel the need to convince others to believe in the same things they believe in are those who want reassurance.

I strongly agree with that sentiment. While there are others who are not the same, they need to feel secure and safe. They are weak in their beliefs and need some type of shield from anything that remotely appears to be different.

But some evangelicals over in this part of the world resort to insults and unintelligible rabble to counter the arguments.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force

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