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levg79
Topic Author
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No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:03 am

Hello everyone!

As some of you may remember during the election campaign in the US, Pres. Bush has made his point that he will do anything in his power to make abortions illegal.

Now he has a chance to make this happen. By appointing 2 conservative jurors into the supreme court, he can get Roe vs. Wade reversed. In my opinion he will do anything to succeed in this manner.

Do you people think that he will succeed? I personally think he will, although I'm pro-choice. I'd like to hear your opinions please.

Leo.
 
TedTAce
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
jurors

jurist

Great thread start... are you ready for the flaming?  Yeah sure
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:38 am

in a perfect world abortions would be illegal. However, you need too many exclusions. For example if the baby is known to have severe disabilities that are evident before birth, also if the baby is a result of rape... Or if the mother is at risk from the birth.

However, unless any of the 3 above are fulfilled, i think it should be illegal.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:47 am

I think the government has no business in family matters such as this.
 
sidewinder
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:54 am

If you believe in God. Do you think he would be happy or upset if it go overturned?
 
levg79
Topic Author
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:55 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
jurors

jurist

Actually I meant to say judges, my mistake.

Leo.

[Edited 2005-09-05 02:56:08]
 
aa757first
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 2):
For example if the baby is known to have severe disabilities that are evident before birth

People seem to think that Bush outlawing abortions would be in compliance with the Christian/Catholic church "rules". I can't speak for other churches, but in the Catholic church, an abortion is not justified for that reason. I would be very surprised if that was allowed should a law banning abortion be enacted.

AAndrew
 
UN_B732
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:00 am

I absolutely support making abortion illegal except in cases of rape, incest, harm to mother or child.
I don't support abortion just because Mike knocked you up and your now pregnant.
 
levg79
Topic Author
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 6):
Bush outlawing abortions would be in compliance with the Christian/Catholic church "rules".

But the US in not a Christian/Catholic nation. US citizens also include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and other religions.

Leo.
 
B2707SST
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
Now he has a chance to make this happen. By appointing 2 conservative jurors into the supreme court, he can get Roe vs. Wade reversed. In my opinion he will do anything to succeed in this manner.

Overturning Roe v. Wade would not make abortion illegal. Roe "discovered" an implicit right to privacy in the 14th Amendment and used it to establish Federal jurisdiction over abortion:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html

Overturning Roe v. Wade would send the abortion issue back to the state legislatures, which would decide independently whether to allow it or not. IMHO, this is where the issue belongs under the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...ution.billofrights.html#amendmentx


In ruling on Roe v. Wade, the Court effectively put the ends before the means and made up a justification. Many people, including those who are pro-choice, recognize the twisted and "fuzzy" legal logic of Justice Blackmun's majority opinion. Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg once said made a statment to this effect.

I abhor abortion but recognize that banning it would not stop it and would not fix the underlying problem. Roe v. Wade, however, is a fallacious decision and should be overturned.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2005-09-05 03:18:46]
 
SFOMEX
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
As some of you may remember during the election campaign in the US, Pres. Bush has made his point that he will do anything in his power to make abortions illegal.

I'm afraid that he was paying lip service to the strong Pro-Life movement. Although I'm totally Pro-Life, I'm well aware that fully outlawing abortion is impossible. Even if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, the issue will be left to the states and for sure many will keep it legal.

Having said that, I really believe that President Bush owes a strong conservative nominee to his base. He shouldn't care about the liberals opposition; after all, they neither voted for him nor support him nowadays. When he had the chance, president Clinton picked two social liberals for the job, as we all expected from a moderate liberal administration. That's why most Republicans in the senate voted for his nominees despite their differences with both of them.

If a more conservative Supreme Court saves at least one innocent baby's life, all this mess will be worthy.
 
werdywerd
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 7):
I absolutely support making abortion illegal except in cases of rape, incest, harm to mother or child.
I don't support abortion just because Mike knocked you up and your now pregnant.

Then you are willing to pay to put a single mother on welfare for the rest of her life because she couldn't get an abortion?

Do you support a child being raised by parents who didnt want him/her in the first place and living a miserable life where the parents couldnt care less about their child?
 
aa757first
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 8):

But the US in not a Christian/Catholic nation. US citizens also include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and other religions.

Yes, but many people think should an abortion law go into place, it will be Bush's way of "thanking" his strong pro-life base.

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 11):

Do you support a child being raised by parents who didnt want him/her in the first place and living a miserable life where the parents couldnt care less about their child?

It costs anywhere from $5,000 to $40,000 to adopt a child. If someone is going to spend $10,000 to adopt a child, don't you think the child would be a member of a wonderful, loving household?

AAndrew
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 12):
In a perfect world, people would mind their own business and butt the f**k out of other people's personal lives...and choices.

Does that include the government getting involved in the lives of the people of New Orleans?
 
werdywerd
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 14):
It costs anywhere from $5,000 to $40,000 to adopt a child. If someone is going to spend $10,000 to adopt a child, don't you think the child would be a member of a wonderful, loving household?

What makes you think that someone who didn't want their child in the first place would necessarily put them up for adoption?

Also, abortions will still happen whether they are legal or not, it just will be alot messier since coathangers will have to be used again...
 
QANTASforever
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:55 am

I think it is unbelievable naive of you all to think that if you make abortions illeagal, all abortions will cease.

Women have always aborted since people knew how, and they will continue to do so for as long as people know how. Making it illeagal drives women into underground surgeries, with questionably skilled "doctors". Worse still, some may even try to do it themselves. This can lead to severe uteral damage or possibly even death.

Abortion will never stop, so in considerationg of this - surely it would be better for all concerned if they were monitoried by health authorities.

QFF
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:29 am

How many of the people who want abortion outlawed in this post are men?

I love it when people feel the need to decide for everyone else what is right for them. I love it even more when people think they know what God wants.

Against abortion? Don't have one.
 
satx
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 10):
I'm totally Pro-Life, I'm well aware that fully outlawing abortion is impossible.

They once outlawed booze. To some folks, abortion is just another sin to be punished. Besides, if we're lucky the kid will end up in a broken home to be raised by his aunt or grandmother before eventually giving up hope and turning to the dark side, after which we'll have a nice Christian execution waiting for him. Thus the circle of life will have been completed as God intended.  tombstone   Big grin

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 10):
When he had the chance, president Clinton picked two social liberals for the job, as we all expected from a moderate liberal administration.

Wow, they sure looked like moderates to me.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 10):
If a more conservative Supreme Court saves at least one innocent baby's life, all this mess will be worthy.

Innocent baby?! WTF?! Have you already forgotten about the original sin?  stirthepot 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
 
greasespot
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:23 pm

Funny how the conservatives are so concerned with gov't intrusion in their lives yet are completely willing to but into women they do not know.....What i say is stay the fuck out of my life it is my choice...I am nt trying to intrude in yours.

If you fuck some chick (and many seem to be proud of their one night stands after reading these threads) and you get her pregnant you better have dsiscussed this before hand...if not keep it in your pants...until you have...

Yeah lets outlaw it and go back to back alley abortions....

Notice it is all men responding ...except me...

GS
 
levg79
Topic Author
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 21):
Notice it is all men responding ...except me...

It is not suprising that the only woman who is willing to talk on this subject is pro choice.

When I was younger, I was against abortions. I was living by the rule that I heard somewhere, it sounded something like "Life, what a beautiful choice." Then, something happened. As I grew older (I'm only in my 20s), I almost got into the situation where I thought it would be either abortion or my life would totally change. I was about to choose the abortion over having my life changed completely forever. Luckily nothing happened but it was a close call. That's when I became pro-choice. I don't know if I was able to justify my view by this little and stupid story, but this is where I stand. Anyone else could somewhat justify their views?
 
N1120A
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:52 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 6):
People seem to think that Bush outlawing abortions

Ok, first off, George Bush cannot just up an outlaw abortions. Sure, he can name justices to the Court that may be in line with his thinking, but he is not able to determine by himself the Constitutionality of abortion. Second, why does anyone think that Rhenquist's replacement will change the make up from what it will be when and if Roberts is confirmed? Rhenquist was a huge conservative and completely against abortion. Before O'Connor retired, the split was 6-3. With Roberts and the new Chief Justice, it will be 5-4 in favor of upholding Roe

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 9):
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty,

The right to privacy rests in the protection of the right to life and particularly liberty

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 9):
this is where the issue belongs under the 10th Amendment:

Which was almost completely overrulled by the 14th
 
Pyrex
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:24 pm

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 7):
I absolutely support making abortion illegal except in cases of rape, incest, harm to mother or child.
I don't support abortion just because Mike knocked you up and your now pregnant.

Completely agree! And by the way, I can debate this issue for as long as you want without ever bringing out religion, so stop trying to make all people who are against abortions as religious fundamentalists (this is not directed at you, UN_B732).

Miguel
 
TedTAce
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Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 9):
Overturning Roe v. Wade would send the abortion issue back to the state legislatures

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! And IIRC, Florida has a constitutional stipulations that Abortions will always be legal. Look like another reason for tourism to this state Big grin

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 12):
Yes, but many people think should an abortion law go into place, it will be Bush's way of "thanking" his strong pro-life base.

And Inciting riots from the over passioned college kid liberals.

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 15):
I think it is unbelievable naive of you all to think that if you make abortions illeagal, all abortions will cease.

Unbelievably naive, for these MEN to think they are doing "God's Will" which to me is what this whole debate comes down to.*

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
How many of the people who want abortion outlawed in this post are men?

100%

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
I love it when people feel the need to decide for everyone else what is right for them. I love it even more when people think they know what God wants.

 thumbsup 

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
Against abortion? Don't have one.

Oh heaven forbid!!!  Yeah sure

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
if we're lucky the kid will end up in a broken home to be raised by his aunt or grandmother before eventually giving up hope and turning to the dark side, after which we'll have a nice Christian execution waiting for him

*

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
Have you already forgotten about the original sin?



Quoting SATX (Reply 17):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

From above: "with some Christian groups denying it altogether" I guess if Origianl sin exists, they can't use the innocent's excuse and look THAT much more Hypocritical

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 18):

If you fuck some chick



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 18):

Notice it is all men responding ...except me...

Such language from a lady... your are getting me excited  Wink

* This whole thing is about "God's way". If there was no god, in these people's minds, there would be no religion to base these antiquated beliefs upon.

The Pro life/pro choice issue is not about fetuses, it's about whether or not God exists. The answer, not so sadly, is no.
 
xpat
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 11):
Do you support a child being raised by parents who didnt want him/her in the first place and living a miserable life where the parents couldnt care less about their child?

Well, didn't you know that's when all the "pro"-lifers will come out and offer support (financial, moral, emotional etc.) to that very same parent?

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 14):
Also, abortions will still happen whether they are legal or not, it just will be alot messier since coathangers will have to be used again...

Exactly! Let's have an increase in back-street abortionists (butchers). That will be so much safer and pleasant for the poor woman.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
How many of the people who want abortion outlawed in this post are men?

I've NEVER understood that. At it's very root this is not our issue (some will argue that preserving life is everyone's issue...to them I say [in this specific instance]...blah, blah, blah).

I have an issue with the term "pro"-life. So if you're not "pro"-life, that makes you "anti"-life or "pro"-death? How about we change the term (pro-life) to "anti"-freedom of choice instead?
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 3):
I think the government has no business in family matters such as this.

I think this sums it up quite well. Why does the government need to decide whether you have an abortion or not? I think that it isn't the governments job to make up what you do with your own life.

Here in The Netherlands, the choice is for a woman herself. The government doesn't try to say what we need to do and that's a good thing. Governing and religion doesn't work well, especially not in multi-cultural countries like The Netherlands.

Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
Now he has a chance to make this happen. By appointing 2 conservative jurors into the supreme court

I also am very against the fact that politicians can make up who's going to be a top-judge. Such a decision is normally based on the values of POTUS and what if the rest of the US doesn't share these values except his party members in congress? Every government should stay away from appointing judges. Making laws yes, but choosing the one who enforces them is another.

Just my two little eurocents!

Cheers!  wave 
 
whitehatter
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 15):
I think it is unbelievable naive of you all to think that if you make abortions illeagal, all abortions will cease.

Women have always aborted since people knew how, and they will continue to do so for as long as people know how. Making it illeagal drives women into underground surgeries, with questionably skilled "doctors". Worse still, some may even try to do it themselves. This can lead to severe uteral damage or possibly even death.

Abortion will never stop, so in consideration of this - surely it would be better for all concerned if they were monitoried by health authorities.

Finally someone hits the nail on the head.

Make it illegal and you merely drive it underground, jack up the cost and remove the safeguards against disastrous outcome. Backstreet abortionists will become wealthy and as widespread as street-corner drug dealers.

Abortion should be safe, legal and RARE. Put the effort into contraception and education and stop kids getting pregnant in the first place instead of trying to weld shut the stable door after the horse has bolted....
 
ltbewr
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:02 pm

What I expect in the near future is a narrowing of Roe v. Wade, mainly a large shift to the states to regulate Abortion, yet keeping it legal to a significant extent. States could be given greater power to regulate, and would attempt to limit late term abortions, limits of access by minors including parental notification laws or court approvals, more costly procedures requiring more dignified procedures as to fetal remains, requiring counsuling and a waiting period before the procedures, requiring post-abortion counsuling, greater reguation of abortion clinics and doctors, registration of abortions (death certificate filings) and so on.
We also need to get away from the 'abstence only' sexual responsability education programs, as most parents are afraid to or are incompentant to deal with educating their children. I would note that the numbers of teens getting abortions in the USA, while unacceptably high, has declined over the last decade due to STD fears, more women gaining control over there bodies, many young men and women seeing older relatives have gone through the problems of teen pregancy.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 25):
Abortion should be safe, legal and RARE. Put the effort into contraception and education and stop kids getting pregnant in the first place instead of trying to weld shut the stable door after the horse has bolted....

You've hit the nail on the head too.

There's nothing I hate more than when Liberals are called "abortion happy". Nobody is happy about abortions - well, at least I'm certainly not. It's obviously unpleasant and it isn't something we rejoice in. I would love to live in a world where there's the medical technology to handle all birth situations; where there's no rape, sexual abuse, unsafe sex or reckless promiscuity - but we don't. We must educate, ensure that our young understand the value of life so that one day abortion is truly an extremely rare occurence. In the mean time, we cannot drive abortion underground. The effect on women aside - banning abortion will do nothing to lower ever increasing abortion rates.

Education, and investing in medical technology will reduce terminations - but it will take decades.

QFF
 
Pyrex
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 25):
Make it illegal and you merely drive it underground, jack up the cost and remove the safeguards against disastrous outcome

This could be applied to so many acts I won't even bother to count them...
 
duke
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:58 pm

If I were an American, I doubt I'd be either a Democrat or a Republican, but this is one thing on which I'm with George Bush. I wish him success in this endeavor.

I am very liberal in many areas, but not in this one. I am staunchly pro-life. There is only one situation where I would allow abortion, when the mother's life is in danger. This is because the mother has relationships to other people, whereas the unborn child does not. Not because the mother is worth more than the "fetus". To me they have equal human value. This position comes from my religion and I cannot be convinced otherwise, believing as I do the premises of my faith that each human life, from conception, is precious. HOWEVER, I realize that many people do not believe what I do - I.E. that a human being is an icon of God with a soul from the moment of conception. I can argue against abortion from a PURELY SECULAR ETHICAL POINT OF VIEW. I will adress several concerns:

1) "It's just a fetus. It's not a fully developed human being".

I will say that science itself has shown that human life begins at conception, even that the newly-conceived, "totally undeveloped" fetal cells actively participate in their gestation, and are not just passive objects of the mother's bodily function. This was even evident in Roe vs. Wade, yet the court ruled in such a way as to essentially make the question not "is this life or not?" but "does the mother have a right over this life or not?" (its answer: "she does in order to protect her own privacy"). We treasure human life and generally according to law, no one may deprive another of their life except in the extreme case of self-defense or defense of others. Yet somehow, we either conveniently assume that this new life, which we can't see, is a sub-life, if even life at all and not just some kind of growth waiting to get life, or that all the mother's interests are by default of more value than the very right to life of the new human being growing and developing in her.

Modern ultrasound technology has provided parents with the unique possibility of seeing their child develop before it is born. For many people, this is not only an enjoyable experience, but also an awe-inspiring one. It becomes clear to them that there is a wonderful new life in there. And yet many such new lives are taken every year.

If we are to claim to be a civilized, moral society, how dare we assume that one kind of human life is worth less than another? It comes down to the power of the stronger over the weaker. Who else can we harm? Can parents treat children like property because they're bigger and stronger? Can men lord it over women? It starts this way. By drawing a line for the unborn, you are saying that this is a person whose life is of lesser value. That line can be raised higher (for example, Wesley Clark reportedly said he was in favor of abortions RIGHT UP TO THE POINT OF BIRTH, or something like that. So you're somehow not living or a sub-life until that "magic moment" of birth, even though long before that you were a developed baby that could have even been born prematurely and lived? Who else can we kill, cripples? Jews, gypsies and other non-Aryans, as was done in Nazi Germany? I know that sounds extreme but if you don't value all human life, you're setting yourself up for this kind of dilemma - and by what arbitrary standard do we purpose to decide that this is worthy life and that is unworthy life? You can't do it.

2) The government should stay out of private life

I don't buy this. There is government intrusion and there is government intrusion. This argument has been used to justify government interference in situations when husbands abuse their wives and when parents abuse their children. Banning abortion would not be a situation where the government decides to dictate morality to women. If for example, the government banned homosexuality, one could easily argue that that was interference in private life, for homosexuality mainly affects two consenting people in their own beds. Abortion, however, affects a third party, an innocent human being whom those more powerful than itself have decided to kill. Just as the government does not allow you to murder someone, even if you utterly hate that person and think they're making your life miserable, so the government, out of respect for the child's rights, should ban abortion.

3) It's mostly men, who don't understand women, who want abortion banned

Stuff and nonsense. Many, many women are pro-life. Guess what - now the woman involved in "Roe vs. Wade" is ALSO pro-life!

I am one of those pro-life men, yet I consider myself at the same time to be a moderate feminist! I am for: women having the same general rights as men, for the possibility for both men and women to decide if, once married, they will work or keep house or do both, for equal pay for equal work, etc. etc. I have even decided that, if I ever get married, I will take my wife's surname! But I am against abortion because of the third party involved, the child, has an interest in the matter too. Like it or not, that's human biology - women, not men have the physical capacity to bear children. Therefore by default, the problem affects women. But believe me, if I suddenly grew a uterus, I would be as pro-life as now. If men could have children, I would still be against abortion.

As a feminist, I do not blame women as such for abortion. Men are just as much to blame for having irresponsible sex with women and for leaving them when they get pregnant. In the early Christian church, when faith was a tight affair in a community, if a woman did have an abortion, penance would go not only to her but also to her partner who had caused it.

Saying men should not tell women about abortion is akin to saying that non-politicians should not criticize politicians' actions, since they don't know about what the politician goes through.

4) Since it is the woman's body, it must be her choice

I fully sympathize with the problem a woman has during an unwanted pregnancy. It is a difficult experience to go through. However, taking a human life is an extremely grave thing. You are depriving the most innocent people in the world of the right to be born and live. Such is the solution pro-choice people propose. There are other ways of dealing with the problem. Except for self-defense, there are no other situations in which it is acceptable to solve a problem with someone by killing them, even if the problem with that person seriously affects you mentally. I will concede what I said above, however. If the mother's life is in danger, then in that one case the abortion can be performed, because it's one life against another, and the mother has been around longer and the loss of her life would also be to someone the loss of a wife, sister, friend etc. But it's still a tragedy.

5) What about fetuses which will grow up with or some defect?

This argument is flawed because it means that a) we take the responsibility of judging whose life is worthy and whose isn't. There are many people who live with terrible illnesses and other problems, people who have been through hell on earth, yet they are grateful to be alive. I don't think we have the right to choose for another that we will kill them for "their advantage". It is in my opinion arrogant to assume that that ill person will have a life not worth living. You deny them the opportunity to value their life themselves. Also, what may seem to be a bad life to you may not be in the eyes of the handicapped person. Take Down's Syndrome for example. When we look at the people, we think all kinds of things. But if you analyze how those people feel and behave, you find that they are typically very happy, innocent folk who can learn about life and have a well-adjusted life. b) if we can abort someone out of a "selfless" wish to "spare them misery", where do we draw the line? At a kid who will be born with short legs? Who will inherit male pattern baldness? At anyone who will not meet whatever standard the parent has? If not this, who will set the appropriate standard? This playing with life is a very tricky affair.

6) It's not fair to a raped/teenage/unready etc mother to have to bring up the child. It is not fair to an unwanted child to have to live life with unfit, unloving parents or relatives.

Excuse me? There are long waiting lists for adoption. If you have no wish to raise the child, there are many people who would give their front teeth, right hand and anything else to have a child. My great grandmother was rejected by her father for being a girl. But the neighbors adopted her and raised her as her own. Subsequently my relatives were very close to the adoptive family. Again, you don't solve the problem of raising an unwanted child by killing it.

If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy, that is a very difficult situation. Let society give her maximum support and understanding. Also, society as a whole should not encourage promiscuous behavior in either sex. We have sex promoted EVERYWHERE as the "cool" thing. Men brag to other men about their "conquests". I would say WHO CARES? I couldn't care less if you're Don Juan's long-lost relative or a eunuch. To me, you walk like a man, talk like a man, have a man's name, so YOU'RE A MAN. I myself am a virgin at almost 26. You people talk about privacy, but is sex a private thing today? No! It's flaunted all over the place. How many commercials have I seen with apparent
suggestions of fetishism, oral sex, and other kinds of sex appeal topics. Sex is even used to sell the local restaurant in some cases. This is a problem wider than abortion. If we valued human life instead of really seeing the body as basically a commodity, there would be less of a "need" to have an abortion.
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:56 pm

OK, all you conservatives who want Roe v Wade overturned, you have a choice to make:

1. Be prepared to adopt an unwanted child or one who cannot be cared for due to financial difficulties,

OR

2. Increase welfare handouts to single mothers and infants.

You can stop abortion (to a point, back-alleys willl always happen), but you can't stop people from screwing.

So, you can't have it both ways. If you overturn Roe v Wade, you must either adopt or increase federal spending. Or, I suppose you could just put up with an increase in crime.

Ready???
 
AMSGOT
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:37 pm

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Duke (Reply 29):
If we valued human life instead of really seeing the body as basically a commodity, there would be less of a "need" to have an abortion.

Exactly. But regrettably lots of women are abused every day, physically and psychologically, so the "need" as you describe it, is there!

Making abortion illegal means closing your eyes for the real world!

If that doesn't connect with your religion, you could start to wonder why, instead of claiming that a human being is an icon of YOUR God. So many people, so many governments, so many religions. Let's make up our own minds and believe in the good of individuals and their choices.

Pieter
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 3644
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RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:22 am

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/858610

I also started a thread about this a while back. Got some pretty interesting replies
 
An-225
Posts: 3859
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 2:55 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:23 am

Abortion is a necessary evil, plain and simple. Make it illegal, and you're opening a whole different can of worms.

Alex.
 
747400F
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:36 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting AMSGOT (Reply 31):
Making abortion illegal means closing your eyes for the real world!

If that doesn't connect with your religion

Sorry, but being anti abortion is not only a religious matter. I'm an atheist and very much anti-abortion. BAsicly everyone needs to be responsible for their actions = If you have sex without condoms/birthcontrol you may end up with a child - deal with it or dont have sex in the first place
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:14 am

I'm probably going to regret wading into these waters...

Quoting Duke (Reply 29):
I will say that science itself has shown that human life begins at conception, even that the newly-conceived, "totally undeveloped" fetal cells actively participate in their gestation, and are not just passive objects of the mother's bodily function.

I'm sorry, but are you trying to apply some emotional argument to genetic expression and cellular actions? Hell, my immune cells actively participate in fighting a cold, all I do is drink the OJ. Considering that man is ultimately defined by his intelligence, I'd say life as we know and experience/understand it does not truly begin until the development of consciousness and higher brain functions since that is what distinguishes us from other living things; animals, plants, microbes etc...
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Levg79 (Thread starter):
As some of you may remember during the election campaign in the US, Pres. Bush has made his point that he will do anything in his power to make abortions illegal.

Now he has a chance to make this happen. By appointing 2 conservative jurors into the supreme court, he can get Roe vs. Wade reversed. In my opinion he will do anything to succeed in this manner.

Do you people think that he will succeed? I personally think he will, although I'm pro-choice. I'd like to hear your opinions please

Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned tomorrow, abortions would still be legal in most states.
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:15 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 30):
So, you can't have it both ways. If you overturn Roe v Wade, you must either adopt or increase federal spending. Or, I suppose you could just put up with an increase in crime.

It may make some also think twice about not using a contraceptive. And if it means saving a life i will pay the bill.

My wife and i dont have kids....and 1/3 of my taxes goes to the public school system.
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting 747400F (Reply 34):
Sorry, but being anti abortion is not only a religious matter.

So far, about 95% of the pro-lifers I've come across claim to be moderately or deeply religious.

Quoting 747400F (Reply 34):
If you have sex without condoms/birthcontrol you may end up with a child - deal with it or dont have sex in the first place

1. Condoms and/or other birth control is not 100% effective. Over your lifetime you are likely to have at least a few, and possibly several, condoms break and not every girl is on the pill or other contraceptive every day of the year.

2. Having an abortion is exactly how some people 'deal with it'.

I love how some folks are pro-life, anti-contraceptive, and pro-death penalty. Talk about advertising your own hypocrisy.  Big grin
 
747400F
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:36 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
I love how some folks are pro-life, anti-contraceptive, and pro-death penalty. Talk about advertising your own hypocrisy.

Could not agree more!

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
Condoms and/or other birth control is not 100% effective. Over your lifetime you are likely to have at least a few, and possibly several, condoms break and not every girl is on the pill or other contraceptive every day of the year.

My point exactly you run the risk you face the consequenses.Yes

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
Having an abortion is exactly how some people 'deal with it'.

Exactly why abortions in my opinion are disgraceful. And the abotionists despicable human beings.

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
So far, about 95% of the pro-lifers I've come across claim to be moderately or deeply religious.

That may be the case - but is still not true in every case.
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:15 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
I love how some folks are pro-life, anti-contraceptive, and pro-death penalty. Talk about advertising your own hypocrisy.

Just a little difference here. One is shedding innocent blood. The other should have been tried and convicted of a capitol offense.
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Sidewinder (Reply 40):
One is shedding innocent blood.

The concept of the Original Sin would lead me to believe that there is no such thing as 'innocent blood' in the eyes of many Christians.  stirthepot 

Quoting Sidewinder (Reply 40):
The other should have been tried and convicted of a capitol offense.

As with abortions, I have no fundamental problem with executions. However, I do not yet have enough faith in our justice system to believe that all who are convicted are truly guilty. Thus, I do not currently support the death penality.

Also, you never commented on the anti-contraceptive part. That's still blatent hypocrisy when tied to a pro-life agenda IMHO.
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:15 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 41):
Also, you never commented on the anti-contraceptive part

I believe that the anti-contraceptive idea is a catholic dogma. Not shared with all Christian faiths.

Quoting SATX (Reply 41):
The concept of the Original Sin would lead me to believe that there is no such thing as 'innocent blood' in the eyes of many Christians

When i say innocent blood. I mean that the human being did not commit any capitol offenses against his/her fellow man.
You are speaking of Sin we are born with as a result of Adam and eves disobedience of God. We will let God deal with that one.
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Sidewinder (Reply 40):
The other should have been tried and convicted of a capitol offense.

Ah, yes, you mean like with Illinois, where Governor Ryan stopped the death penalty because too many people were on death row or had already been killed who turned out to be innocent?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 36):
Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned tomorrow, abortions would still be legal in most states

Is this a fact? Because in my mind, the states that went Republican would generally vote to ban abortion, whereas the states that went Democrat would generally vote to keep abortion...and if you look at a map of the 2004 election, you'll see which is the majority. Even if you throw some swing states out of the occasion like Colorado, Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, and Arizona, it's still mostly red in terms of the number of states...at least, there is a majority.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:16 am

Why should a woman be made to suffer by banning abortions? They have to suffer physically and mentally during the entire pregnancy term, and it also affects her financial needs, work life, future earning prospects etc. Isn't forcing a woman to go through this a violation of her human rights? A woman should be free to choose what she wants to do with her own body.

Like others said, banning abortions will just send it underground, and make it more riskier for the women. If the parents are dead set against having a child and are forced to have it because they couldn't get an abortion, will they really look after the child affectionately? The child might be totally messed up because of the environment.

People talk of taking a life about abortions, but they don't hesitate in killing animals and eating them. Isn't that a life too? Is it easier to kill a fully grown cow which is alive and standing in front of you or to abort a mass of cells in which the brain and nerves are yet to develop into proper organs?
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:15 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 43):
Ah, yes, you mean like with Illinois, where Governor Ryan stopped the death penalty because too many people were on death row or had already been killed who turned out to be innocent?

Ahhhh yes your right....lets open up the prisons and let everyone free. You know if you ask anyone in prison what they did they will tell you the did nothing.

So lets see....everyone who was murdered, raped, or the victim of some other violent crime...they where just imagining it. All the prisoners are innocent.
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Sidewinder (Reply 45):
Ahhhh yes your right....lets open up the prisons and let everyone free. You know if you ask anyone in prison what they did they will tell you the did nothing.

So lets see....everyone who was murdered, raped, or the victim of some other violent crime...they where just imagining it. All the prisoners are innocent.

Where did this come from? Tell me where in my post I said, or even hinted to saying, that everyone should be let free? You simply stated that people who are executed should have been proven guilty, and I was just countering your argument saying that in a perfect world, yes, that's true, but in this world, it's not always. So I am somewhat confused as to where you are coming from with this post?
 
sidewinder
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:15 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:30 am

Unfortunately when we post we put our own tone of voice or what we may think the other person means. If i misinterpreted i apologize.  Smile
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:33 am

No need to apologize, I was just making sure there wasn't something I was saying my message that I didn't mean to.
 
An-225
Posts: 3859
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 2:55 am

RE: No More Abortions In The US?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:46 am

Banning abortions would be an even bigger failure than prohibition... If you're against abortion - don't have one. I know a few people who had to go through abortions, one girl went through it twice. And you know what? I have a deep sense of respect for her, because bringing an unwanted baby into this world is much more horrible than removing a zygote from your body via a simple medical procedure...


Alex.

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