Since there are theorys floating around out there about "Intelligent Design vs. Darwinism" how about this:

According to Christians, God created humans in his image. He created first man, then woman but He created both. Meaning: He has the ability to be both genders. It would stand to reason, from that, it should be acceptable if a man wants to spend his life with another man or if a woman wants to spend her life with another woman or whatever the case and that sex was given to us for creation and not necissarily a means to keep the same opposite gender partner forever. What do you think?

GO CANUCKS!!

I think your going to get flamed faster then the punk that Bernard Goetz dropped on the subway.

That being said....
I don't think you are barking up the right tree...trying to make a religious justification for homosexuality is like trying to use the titanic to explain Hydroplanes.

[Edited 2005-10-12 21:58:11]

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1): I think your going to get flamed faster then the punk that Bernard Goetz dropped on the subway.

  

I also think that the "events" that you base your opinion on can be deciphered a million different ways and too many people on here think their word is the be all end all.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1): That being said.... I don't think you are barking up the right tree...trying to make a religious justification for homosexuality is like trying to use the titanic to explain Hydroplanes.

Ted,

You are such a paradox. Sometime I can agree with you, like your statement above which is so well put, and on other occasions, well you already know.

Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter): He created first man, then woman but He created both.

I always wondered why he didn't do both at the same time?

Oh, yeah...the book was written by men. Gotta keep women in thier "place", and what better way then to say they were created from the rib of a MAN, then put the entire blame of "original sin" on women as well.

He created one woman and one man , So every orgy is some kind of family affair   

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3): Ted, You are such a paradox. Sometime I can agree with you, like your statement above which is so well put, and on other occasions, well you already know.

One of these days I might even bother to figure MYSELF out.

"And I say unto thee. Thou shalt take up no sword, nor grain, nor camera in the name of lust. The sheep of two nations forbid you great reward and will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field—on your horses and donkeys and camels and on your cattle and sheep and goats." Ralph 14:3

Couldn't offer much here. I'm a 5th generation celibate myself.

Golly gee whiz I actually thought this thread might be about a more general "sexuality" instead of just homosexuality... but I guess that's what I should expect from past history. It's too bad that your topic line doesn't accurately reflect the sliver of sexuality that you're actually addressing.

God has no gender, but He has given us purpose and laws. You are also confusing "gender" with "biological genotype." There is no place in the Bible that encourages or blesses homosexual relationships. There are many places that condemn homosexual behavior. That makes it pretty clear to me.


redngold

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): There is no place in the Bible that encourages or blesses homosexual relationships. There are many places that condemn homosexual behavior. That makes it pretty clear to me

Good for you.
I hope you refrain from wearing clothes made of more than just one fiber and are servile to your husband too.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): Golly gee whiz I actually thought this thread might be about a more general "sexuality" instead of just homosexuality... but I guess that's what I should expect from past history

Why?
Do you have sex too?

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): God has no gender, but He has given us purpose and laws

If God has no gender then why do you call god a "He"?

Quoting KROC (Reply 11): If God has no gender then why do you call god a "He"?

I'm curious if He is really hung too.

After all, He is God. If you were God and you could make yourself, wouldn't you be Hung like a mule too?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10): I hope you refrain from wearing clothes made of more than just one fiber and are servile to your husband too.

We've been over this before and I'm not going to dignify your silliness with an answer.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10): Do you have sex too?

Relevance? Sexuality can be expressed and experienced without intercourse.

Quoting KROC (Reply 11): If God has no gender then why do you call god a "He"?

Tradition and ease, like most other reasons why people assign genders to sterilized pets and inanimate objects. But you already knew that.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 4): they were created from the rib of a MAN,

Moses' account of the creation in the book of Genesis is so familiar and so entrenched in our cultural heritage that many accept as actual historic fact the assertion that Woman was created from one of Adam's ribs.

Science has railed against such simple beliefs for centuries. Last week, at a dig in the escarpments along the western shore of the Dead Sea, archeologists have uncovered ancient, original texts that pre-date Moses' writings by 1,300 years. Translated, their account of life's beginnings on earth are much more scientifically plausible.

"... and God created Woman, giving her three breasts to succor her young. And God spoke, saying to her, "I have created thee as I see fit, but mine is no longer the only opinion in the universe (sigh). Is there anything about thee that thou would prefer differently?"

And Woman spoke, saying, "Lord, I am not made to birth whole litters; I do not need but two breasts."

And God said, "Thou speak wisely, as I have created thee with wisdom."

There was a crack and a lingering odor of ozone, and it was done, and Woman stood holding her third breast in her hand.

"But what shall be done with this useless boob?" Woman exclaimed.

And so it was that God created Man.

My original post was not to justify homosexuality. I know the laws Moses gave to the Isrealites condemns the act. If an omnipotent being was capable of creating both genders of all life forms, then that being either has no gender (not likely) or both genders (more likely) and wanted to keep the two genders separate. Remember that God walked with Adam and Eve before they ate of the forbidden fruit. So, what about a theory that, even though we have one gender or another, we are still able to have the thoughts and desires (not the correct word, but close) of both genders since our creator does.

Again, this is not trying to justify homosexuality, but rather I am looking for a good discussion on this theory.

GO CANUCKS!!

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 15): I am looking for a good discussion on this theory.

Seb, I doubt that you will achieve such a thing. Those who believe enough in the bible to discuss with you will likely already be prejudiced against homosexuality, and those who would be more open minded about it will likely already be prejudiced against religion. Good luck.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 13): We've been over this before and I'm not going to dignify your silliness with an answer.

Its because you haven't one.
Bible thumpers are often dumbstruck and tongue-tied when confronted with logic.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 13): Relevance? Sexuality can be expressed and experienced without intercourse.

Yes, there is also oral sex. Fancy, you knowing something about it !

Go to the source, the Bible ...
Leviticus Ch. 18 & Ch 20
Deuteronomy 22:13-30
Romans 1:18-32
I Corinthians Ch. 7
I Timothy 1:9-11

In my opinion, the bible is just yet another bestseller phantasy book written by men. To me this has just the same importance like what JK Rowling writes in "Harry Potter": a book can't tell humanity what is morally right or wrong. Everyone needs to know and decide that with his own brain. Considering the bible a law today, in year 2005, is beyond my understanding. Now flame me  

Quoting Redngold (Reply 13): Tradition and ease, like most other reasons why people assign genders to sterilized pets and inanimate objects. But you already knew that.

My "sterilized" pets still have Gender. And for all the feminists out there saying God is a woman and such, where is the "ease" or "tradition"? If God has no gender as you claim, then you cannot call it a "he". Its that simple. Fact is, you have no idea about what god is, his actual existance or anything like that. You are basing this off quite possibly a work of fiction.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17): Its because you haven't one. Bible thumpers are often dumbstruck and tongue-tied when confronted with logic.

  

Chrisitian sexuality comes with so many conditions it hardly seems worth the effort.

-Born Again Pagan

Quoting KROC (Reply 20): You are basing this off quite possibly a work of fiction.

I would have said "You are basing this off of a work of fiction based on a few loose truths. "

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): God has no gender, but He has given us purpose and laws.

So how do you think IT is like then? Your post is one of the silliest I have read on anet  

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10): Do you have sex too?

No, she is probably a virgin and prays to god to give her a son or a daughter

Quoting Redngold (Reply 13): Relevance? Sexuality can be expressed and experienced without intercourse.

are you a virgin by experience..? It's not that freakin', silly  

Waiting for the next bible lesson on what god thinks, ACCORDING TO YOU

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 18): Go to the source, the Bible ... Leviticus Ch. 18 & Ch 20 Deuteronomy 22:13-30 Romans 1:18-32 I Corinthians Ch. 7 I Timothy 1:9-11

Bluewave707, while it is nice of you to name some relevant sections of the bible doing so does not necessarily advance this discussion as there are various viable and contradictory interpretations out there.

Click here to view one that most likely doesn't conform with your own views.

Bluewave 707:

We all know what the prophets say about *the act* of homosexuality. My question is: what do you as a Christian think about sexuality (*PLEASE READ THAT WORD*) as it relates to God, Adam, and Eve.

Redngold:

You know I don't always agree with you, but I think you are able to carry on debates on Christianity very well. Thank you.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 23): No, she is probably a virgin and prays to god to give her a son or a daughter

So what if she is a virgin? There are still people around that are waiting until they get married and have sex with one person. No shame in that. IMO, the Bible does have *some* good life-rules and teaches *some* good moral lessons. If she chooses not to have sex, I say: good for her! She does not have to worry about risking unwanted preganancy or disease! As for what you said, she lives in America in 2005. Bloody likely she knows how these things work!

GO CANUCKS!!

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22): I would have said "You are basing this off of a work of fiction based on a few loose truths. "

I could live with that.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 25): So what if she is a virgin? There are still people around that are waiting until they get married and have sex with one person. No shame in that.

I fully agree! But at the same time, it is necessary to "tolerate" the others, who do not subscribe to that very life style and not to try to dogmatize them

Perhaps, Redngold can entertain us all with her visions of sexuality, although whenever I view American Gothic, sex is the last thing that comes to mind.

She can also answer the question on whether toys are prohibited by the Bible.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 28): She can also answer the question on whether toys are prohibited by the Bible.

While this is a silly or should I rather say amusing example, it demonstrates the substantial shortcomings of trying to interpret the bible only in a literal sense without regarding the cultural and historical context.

I guess the main reason for this behaviour among many evangelical zealots is that such an interpretation would turn up many shades of gray and they would be too complex to grasp for minds who love simple straightforward (no pun intended) solutions to highly complex issues.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): Golly gee whiz I actually thought this thread might be about a more general "sexuality" instead of just homosexuality

That would be an interesting topic. The link between Christianity and sexuality is, IMHO, full of misunderstandings and misconceptions. For instance, it's a common belief that some Christian churches "teach" that sex is only good for procreation, which is quite inaccurate. Most Christian churches see sex as a gift from God which is a legitimate way to express love and affection between a married couple, even if they don't want to have a baby. Sex, by itself. It's a wonderful part of our nature.

Once again, this would be an interesting topic to think about it.

The following excerpt comes from the Doctoral dissertation of the Rev. Dr. Greg Jones, it pretty much somes up my feeling on this whole issue.

"For starters we must understand that since there were no eyewitnesses to God’s creative activity, what we have in Genesis is the writer’s interpretation of what series of events could have possibly happened to culminate the world the writer saw and was trying to describe. So the historian starts this phase of the description with the creation of a-d-a-m, adam in Hebrew, which means humankind. Then adam is paired with Eve or chavvah in Hebrew, the root word which means “life” or “life-giving.” So the writer tells us that God did not create only one man and one woman necessarily, but in the creation of adam, God populated the whole earth with humankind. After all, creation is a marriage of humankind with life. Understanding this premise, we see then that the writer in Gen. 1:27 started explaining humanity’s origin from a wide-angled view with the creation of humankind, and then moves into a close-up of sorts on the specific creation of male and female. Even today, if we were to try and explain the origin of humanity, we too would have to start out by trying to describe the basic elements of human existence, men and women or males and females. Just like the rest of creation, humankind represented the variety that the creative hand of God produced. When we look at our world, or even just among ourselves here, we can say that variety is the hallmark of God. We find the precedent for this in the creation of all the non-human products of creation. Every other creature of every kind is brought forth to inhabit the earth. In Gen. 1:11 vegetation springs up from the earth with seeds of every kind in its makeup. This brings forth a variety of plants and trees. Even the seemingly most undesirable of animal creatures, the great sea monsters of Gen. 1:21 are created in mass variety, as well as other creatures of the waters and those of the skies. And, as God neared the culminating act of creation, the living creatures, the cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth are all produced with intentional variety as well. I contend, therefore, that in the creation of adam, God continued the process and thereby created all of humanity, in all of its variety and complexity, in like manner. In creating adam, humankind, God created persons of all shapes and sizes, all dispositions and temperaments, all skin colors and complexions, all tongues and nationalities, and yes, all sexual orientations and natures, and all of every other feature and characteristic that makes us who we are. Genesis 1 offers no grounds for excluding any human being, regardless of sex or sexual orientation, because sexuality is not what defines the image of God. So, in essence, God did create Adam and Eve and Steve."

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): There are many places that condemn homosexual behavior. That makes it pretty clear to me.

Where are these many places? If you are talking about Leviticus, then I suggest that you are a hypocrite. If not please point out all these other places to me so that I may read them and come back to you with a legitimate argument.

Quoting Oneworldman (Reply 32): If you are talking about Leviticus, then I suggest that you are a hypocrite.

  

From cathedral of hope:

"What does the Bible really say about homosexuality? Actually, very little. Most significantly, Jesus said nothing at all. Considering the relatively small amount of attention the Bible pays to the subject, we must ask ourselves why this is such a volatile issue. Other subjects about which the scriptures say a great deal (e.g. judgment, pride, hypocrisy) receive much less passionate attention. "

"Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. Both of these passages are a part of the Levitical holiness code, which is not kept by any Christian group. If it was enforced, almost every Christian would be excommunicated or executed. It has been logically argued that science and progress have made many of the Levitical laws irrelevant."

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 33): It has been logically argued that science and progress have made many of the Levitical laws irrelevant."

           

I guess what I am trying to say is...I could not agree more!!!

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30): Most Christian churches see sex as a gift from God which is a legitimate way to express love and affection between a married couple, even if they don't want to have a baby. Sex, by itself. It's a wonderful part of our nature.

You contradict yourself there.

If sex is a wonderful part of our nature, then there is no reason for it to be condemned and circumscribed for those who are outside the narrow orbit of what the Church considers acceptable. If sex is a wonderful part of nature, it is naturally a part of all humans, not just heterosexuals, but also gay people.

Secondly, I wonder what the Church (any Church) would say about oral and anal sex between married couples? I suspect the hypocrites all love bjs from their big haired wives (if they ever get it) and so would cast a blind eye to it, even though it is forbidden in the Old Testament (the same miserable passages used to condemn gays et al.).

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36): You contradict yourself there.

No he didn't. Read what he wrote dammit!

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 37): No he didn't. Read what he wrote dammit!

Yes, he did, but it appears that you're too thick to get through the garbage.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 28): although whenever I view American Gothic, sex is the last thing that comes to mind.

LOL! 

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 38): Yes, he did, but it appears that you're too thick to get through the garbage.

   ! Is he?

By the way, where is Anets first female priest and anets moral consciousness gone?? Praying to god that all this nihilism from us unholy and helpless ceases?

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 39): By the way, where is Anets first female priest and anets moral consciousness gone

Probably thinking about admitting defeat as she realises that she cannot counter some of the arguments made.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 40): Probably thinking about admitting defeat as she realises that she cannot counter some of the arguments made

This is because God and the bible, along with Jesus Christ, told me to defeat my heretical enemies   

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 28): Perhaps, Redngold can entertain us all with her visions of sexuality, although whenever I view American Gothic, sex is the last thing that comes to mind. She can also answer the question on whether toys are prohibited by the Bible.

But, if she has some modesty (which is rare these days) perhaps she does not want to answer these questions. I am really not concerned with what she does in the privacy of her home, partly because she is a woman but partly because I expect the same respect in turn: Why should someone be concerned with what I do in the privacy of my home? I understand from a Christian point of view, but from a human point of view, it makes no difference.

Or, she could be on holiday or helping sandbag in the Northeast.

Oneworldman:

YES!!! That is what I have been trying to say! God is more than just sexuality but also God is very very complex. One being created both genders and all plants and animals. That shows the complexity of this being.

GO CANUCKS!!

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42): I understand from a Christian point of view, but from a human point of view, it makes no difference.

Quote of the day!  - Great, very good.. As I can infer from these lines:

Christianity does NOT equal humanity

Quoting Redngold (Reply 9): God has no gender

Since you take the Bible quite literally, it's interesting that you say God has no gender. This is not stated in the Bible. In fact God is a he everywhere he's mentioned. He's the Father. Jesus is "his" son. If you're going to interpret the Bible literally, there is no way you can derive that God is genderless.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42): Oneworldman: YES!!! That is what I have been trying to say! God is more than just sexuality but also God is very very complex. One being created both genders and all plants and animals. That shows the complexity of this being.

Glad I could be of some help.

Last week was actually my first time coming into the Non-Av side of this site. I really did not know what to expect. Needless to say I was not expecting such deep conversations. Lets just say, I am happily surprised and reassured that we all have more knowledge than just aviation.

Keep this up I am really enjoying myself.

Quoting Oneworldman (Reply 45): Last week was actually my first time coming into the Non-Av side of this site. I really did not know what to expect. Needless to say I was not expecting such deep conversations. Lets just say, I am happily surprised and reassured that we all have more knowledge than just aviation.

It was actually the interesting discussions in non-av that convinced me to join about a month ago after having read threads intermittently in the civil av forum for about a year and a half.

Quoting Oneworldman (Reply 45): Keep this up I am really enjoying myself.

Could not agree more.

  

Quoting Dvk (Reply 44): If you're going to interpret the Bible literally, there is no way you can derive that God is genderless.

Wonderful post! But "it" (Redngold) interprets the bible the way "he" likes and tries to play the pope of anet.. luckily the audience is understanding the motivation and ridicule behind  

Quoting Dvk (Reply 44): Since you take the Bible quite literally, it's interesting that you say God has no gender. This is not stated in the Bible. In fact God is a he everywhere he's mentioned. He's the Father. Jesus is "his" son. If you're going to interpret the Bible literally, there is no way you can derive that God is genderless.

But, consider this:

That is one flaw of the English language. We have no word for a genderless being except "it." My opinion: The people that translated the Bible into English did not want to be disrespectful, so they assigned this being (God) a male gender since, in Europe, males are generally the dominant ones. However, Jesus was clearly a male. All records, not only from the Bible, but from Rome at the time indicate Jesus was male.

GO CANUCKS!!

What do I think? Read the Bible ... and follow the instructions! Sex is fine, as long it's within marriage, and between one man and one woman. The Bible does say in I Corinthians 7 that marital sex for pleasure is condoned.

Y'all asked for my opinion ... that's it! If you don't agree, that's fine. You'll have the Highest Power to answer to, I'm not one to judge anyone's actions or opinions.