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pentrich
Topic Author
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Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:55 am

Now me and a friend have been debating for months now if any digital memory, ie. memory cards, hard drives, get heavier when they are full. Obviously it would be so slight but when i was at school, we always got told that a law of physics is that everything has Mass. Well if this is correct which I think it is, then they are fractionally heavier when full.

It is truely a deep concept that someone must know or have ideas about. I will be very interested to hear your thoughts.
"Nothing is neither right nor wrong, but what thinking makes it so"
 
erikwilliam
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Pentrich (Thread starter):
I will be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Go to the next drug store you find with two MC in your hands. Then you put the empety on the scale, see how much it weights and take note. then you get the second one and do the same thing. Compare the notes and see which number is bigger. There you go.
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
174thfwff
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:09 am

I don't think so.... It's just one's and zero's I believe. So you write over nothing (say the data on the jump drive is just a bunch of zero's) and just change the way the data looks to 1's and 0's and therefore weight does not change.
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
dazultra
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:10 am

Laughing too hard, got stitch.  rotfl 
 
9VSPO
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 1):
Go to the next drug store you find with two MC in your hands

and ask the pharmacist for a new prescription of drugs as the current one's are not strong enough.  Wink
 
pentrich
Topic Author
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:15 am

yeah I heard that about the 1's and 0's, but I was wondering if you know like you take two photos and one is bigger than another in kilobytes, surely this would be similar and would therefore change it?

Then again if the data is on there already and you are only changing it, then a bigger photo would just replace more of these 1's and 0's. It is amazing really that very well we can discuss this because we have examples, but how on earth did someone come up with this concept? Especially when you take into account that some MC's are absolutely tiny these days!

Thanks for your comments so far.
"Nothing is neither right nor wrong, but what thinking makes it so"
 
erikwilliam
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 4):
and ask the pharmacist for a new prescription of drugs as the current one's are not strong enough.

 checkmark 
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Pentrich (Thread starter):
Obviously it would be so slight but when i was at school, we always got told that a law of physics is that everything has Mass. Well if this is correct which I think it is, then they are fractionally heavier when full.

Electrons do have mass. A storage device such as a solid-state memory that depends on electron "gates" would gain mass if filled. Remember, that even when full, the mass of electrons is so insignificant that there are no instruments commonly available that would be able to detect the weight. From a practical standpoint, it's just a thought experiment.

A burned CD will not gain weight, the data is stored in dye patterns created by the CD writer. The amount of dye in a CD-R is constant before and after being burned, but selected areas (pits and groves) will have undergone a photochemical reaction. The mass remains conserved.

A hard disk stores information via magnetic polarization. The electron flux would be less perceptible than the solid-state memory.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
aerobalance
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:20 am

On a side note - what objects get lighter when they are full?  Wink
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
pentrich
Topic Author
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:20 am

Thanks for that DfwRevolution, thats along the lines of what I was thinking.
"Nothing is neither right nor wrong, but what thinking makes it so"
 
Matt72033
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 8):

balloons?
 
eilennaei
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
Electrons do have mass

A diagram of the general setup here:
http://www.intel.com/design/flash/articles/what.htm
 
pentrich
Topic Author
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:33 am

Nice info from Intel there. Just to expand a bit, how come you can retrieve data that has been erased until formatted on a MC? I sometimes delete photos on my camera but can pop it in my PC and use software to ge the shots back?

Where does the MC store this and does it use up space?
"Nothing is neither right nor wrong, but what thinking makes it so"
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Pentrich (Reply 12):
Nice info from Intel there. Just to expand a bit, how come you can retrieve data that has been erased until formatted on a MC? I sometimes delete photos on my camera but can pop it in my PC and use software to ge the shots back?

Where does the MC store this and does it use up space?

Its stored in the same place it was before you deleted it, and no it doesnt take up usable space.

Basically, all storage media have something called a File Allocation Table, which tells the OS precisely what file is stored where on the device (eg 'moo.jpg is stored from point 41 to point 61', but a little more complex of course). This is so the OS doesnt have to scan the entire device each time to find out what is stored where.

When you delete something, the entry for that file is deleted from the table, but the actual file itself is still stored on disk, so if you scan the disk at a lower level you can see the data is still there.
 
pentrich
Topic Author
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:56 am

aah, I see that makes sense.
"Nothing is neither right nor wrong, but what thinking makes it so"
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:52 am

Threads like this kill more people every year than falling coconuts.
Dear moderators: No.
 
pilot kaz
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Dazultra (Reply 3):
Laughing too hard, got stitch.

DITTIO!!!!  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
-
 
AGM100
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:56 am

Agent: Sir , you will have to pay the luggage overweight fee of ...lets see.. $350.00.

Me: Sorry let me dump this thread off my laptop.... OK thier you go.

Agent: Thanks for flying Delta, have a good day.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
airlinelover
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:58 am

Tell you what.. Go petition the government for a multi-million dollar research grant to see if memory cards DO get heavier when they are "full". Explain that this research could lead towards the relief of pain from holding devices with memory cards, such as digital cameras or cell phones.

Come up with a scale that is SO sensitive it could measure the weight of an "empty" card and a "full" card, then take the rest and get involved in some scandal and be exposed as a fraud..

Then when you are before the board of inquiry, say in opening: "It all began one day on airliners.net........."

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
lehpron
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:33 pm

Digital data has no mass, whether being a 1 or a 0, one is not heavier than than the other, no pun intended.  Smile

Analog data shows no change in mass, compare two 90-min audio cassettes with one empty and the other with jet noises. Both will weigh the same.

The data on any empty digital media is full of zeros. Placing any number of files simply changes the order of the zeros with ones that used to be zeros in its place. Regardless of having 1KB or 90GB, the drive is always full, its either most 1's or mostly 0's.

Text, pictures, videos -- they are made up of zeros and ones, or more correctly, the writer changes the all-zeros on blank media to into ones and zeros.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 19):
Digital data has no mass, whether being a 1 or a 0, one is not heavier than than the other, no pun intended.

1 and 0 are not physical objects, they are concepts, so you cant "store a 1" on anything, 1 doesnt exist.

When storing information, you need to represent it somehow. You could use varying magnetic poles, eg 0 = negative and 1 = positive, in which case both would have equal weight, so there would be no weight gain.

You could store charges of electricity, in which case no electricity would be 0, electricity would be 1, so in this case as your adding electrons you are adding mass, and the HD would gain weight (although as mentioned on a scale so small you wouldnt be able to measure it).

Another thing to consider is that a full disk may infact be lighter than a half full disk. How?

Lets take a storage device of capacity of 2 numbers:

Empty storage device: 0000 0000 (zero mass)

Now lets store the number 15: 1111 0000 (mass of 4)

Now lets fill the storage device, and store the numbers 1 and 2: 0001 0010 (mass of 2)

There we go, a half filled storage device of weight 4, and a full storage device of weight 2 Big grin
 
aireuropeuk733
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 20):
Lets take a storage device of capacity of 2 numbers:

Empty storage device: 0000 0000 (zero mass)

Now lets store the number 15: 1111 0000 (mass of 4)

Now lets fill the storage device, and store the numbers 1 and 2: 0001 0010 (mass of 2)

There we go, a half filled storage device of weight 4, and a full storage device of weight 2

Now my head really hursts  Wink

AE733
It's nice to fly with friends
 
eilennaei
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:35 pm

So if we assume the card is initially 0 (no electrons), in will be 50% of the max state (all 1s), when fully loaded with data, since statistically there will be about the same number of 1s and 0s in the data.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 22):
So if we assume the card is initially 0 (no electrons), in will be 50% of the max state (all 1s), when fully loaded with data, since statistically there will be about the same number of 1s and 0s in the data.

Yes

[Edited 2006-02-24 13:46:34]
 
airbusA346
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:44 pm

Jesus, I can help but laugh so hard.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
18161
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting Pentrich (Reply 5):
yeah I heard that about the 1's and 0's, but I was wondering if you know like you take two photos and one is bigger than another in kilobytes, surely this would be similar and would therefore change it?

Basically the memory consists of many small(solid state) switches that are either open or closed to represent 0 or 1. So, the weight should not change whether the switch is on or off.

Regarding the size of the memory used for pictures, I'll take an example of jpg format, they have an algorithm of representing a picture where more bits would be required to represent a picture with lot of details and variations compared to picture with more regions of a plain same colour.So, it will not repeat the data of near by similar points(Pixels).

I believe in RAW they take all the info of all the pixels irrespective of the picture and you could have a very big file size.
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:07 pm

I thought this thread was a joke when I saw the title Maybe now that computers are "too" easy to use, they don't teach this kind of stuff in school any more and some people don't really care enough about it to read up on how it works.

Oh well, checkers sells more than chess.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Klaus
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 26):
Oh well, checkers sells more than chess.

...and chess sells more than Go...! Big grin

This topic is actually quite a bit trickier than it appears. The state of "being full" for computer memory does not really relate to any physically visible properties. It is an abstract convention which declares regions of memory to be "relevant" or "ignored" and it depends on the operating system being used...
 
eilennaei
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:18 am

...and most of the stored data will never matter anyway...
BTW I read some years ago in a trade magazine (Finn.) about a case where some FDR data was successfully retrieved directly from the surface of a memory chip after an accident. I'd be grateful for more info on what the case might have been.

[Edited 2006-02-24 16:28:43]
 
bill142
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 8):
On a side note - what objects get lighter when they are full?



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 10):
balloons?

not really. Even tho they are filled with less dense gass, they would still be heavier then empty.
 
gigneil
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
A storage device such as a solid-state memory that depends on electron "gates" would gain mass if filled.

Not exactly. The gates are either open or closed and that's the entirety of the storage process. Solid state arrays just have their gates reconfigured and they're thick enough to hold their charge.

They don't actually store anything. TRVYYZ was right.

N
 
eilennaei
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 30):
Not exactly. The gates are either open or closed and that's the entirety of the storage process. Solid state arrays just have their gates reconfigured and they're thick enough to hold their charge.

They don't actually store anything. TRVYYZ was right.

As far as the floating charge devices go, people, myself included, have said earlier that there are actual electrons involved in the storing, and that those particles have mass.

"Thickness of the array" is nonsense. The charge is maintained on well-insulated layer on a very thin film of oxide. Thinness is essential for the purpose of erasing.
The original dynamic RAM is basically a similar device, but needs to be constantly refreshed as the charge leaks away rapidly. Hence the "dynamic" in the name.
Static RAM holds the bit by the virtue of a two-transistor on/off switch that needs no refreshing. These do not rely on a stored charge.
 
VC-10
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 31):
Static RAM holds the bit by the virtue of a two-transistor on/off switch that needs no refreshing. These do not rely on a stored charge.

Quite correct, but they need CONSTANT charge to hold the data
 
eilennaei
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 32):
Quite correct, but they need CONSTANT charge to hold the data

These are bistable devices, and naturally need some kind of electric power to operate and hold either one of their states. Since there's no electrical charge involved in the principle of operation, these tend to be very fast.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Pentrich (Thread starter):
Do Memory Cards Get Heavier When Full?

No, they dont  rotfl 



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