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TACAA320
Topic Author
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:11 am

" Or clerics criminally insane?

It's not been long since Muslims around the world were incited to violent, self-destructive and nonsensical tantrums over a handful of cartoons that delivered important and truthful messages about the perception by much of the world of the behavior of Muslim clerics and their followers. Yet, the Muslim clerics among the liberated people of Afghanistan insist upon the death of a man who renounced Islam sixteen years ago (that it was in favor of Christianity is hardly relevant). These clerics claim anger with the West for expressing consternation and attempting to influence the Afghan government to intervene on behalf of Abdul Rahman and they claim that if he is not executed in accord with their interpretation of Muslim Sharia, they will incite the good citizens of Afghanistan to tear him to pieces.

Islam is, by no means, alone among religions in providing psychic tools to, so-called, leaders to control the emotions, therefore consciousness and the behavior of their brain-washed-from-birth constituents. By associating themselves with god and prophet, claiming specialness in their understanding of just what it is that god wants, needs, demands, etc., these charlatans aggrandize themselves and wield near parental power over the psyche of their constituents. Of course, to wield power over the psyche of masses of people is to wield power over governments, industries and fortunes.

No, Islam is not alone. The U.S. has its Elmer Gantry Gang of big-business tax-exempt religious power mongers. But most societies of the West have matured sufficiently to keep the behavior of the charlatans of the supernatural in check most of the time and their power attenuated. Or is it channeled? As long as the cash flows, the vote empowers and government policy and law can be purchased, religious leaders of the West have sufficient means to satisfy their lusts without resorting, too frequently, to inciting their followers to rank insanity? "

Complete text and source: http://blony.com/index.php?cat=14
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
luisde8cd
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:22 am

I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands. As simple as that.... and it has been like this since the Crusades when both worlds first fought each other.

I personally hope that the EU doesn't accept Turkey as a new member. I'm currently trying to get the documents needed to prove that my grandma's mother was Spanish so that my grandma can get Spanish citizenship and then pass it on to my mother and me. Then I will vote against if there's a referendum for allowing Turkey in the EU.

And no I'm not a fascist right-winger or a xenophobic person, I just think that we cannot lose our Western values because of Islam. If Europe muslims don't like the cartoons, then go move to Iran.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
eaglekeeper101
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:27 am

I don't know if I would be so charitable with praise for the overall evolution of Western theologians, given the behavior of some of them...but that's besides the point.

I will, therefore, offer a more salient point. God, no matter how referred to, is not the problem. People are the problem. Let's face it - some followers need closer supervision than others do, and in my humble opinion, there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
Dougloid
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:27 am

I wouldn't touch this with a fork on the end of a stick.

Suggest immediate killfile.  devil 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 3):

What if we lend you a cattle prod instead? Big grin
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
erikwilliam
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 2):
some followers need closer supervision than others do, and in my humble opinion, there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.

(insert clapping hands)
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
AerospaceFan
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:26 am

Well, you have religious nuts everywhere, is the most I will say.

I'm against religious nuttiness anywhere it rears its ugly head, including here in the U.S. of A. As I've said before, the "creation science" thing is something I have big problems with, and that's a staple of the extreme religious right, in my view.
What's fair is fair.
 
RobertNL070
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My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 4):
What if we lend you a cattle prod instead?

Oh don't do that, you'll have the Hindus up in arms  biggrin 

Indeed, you are right. God, Allah, Yahweh is not the problem. The problems are often to be found in the interpretations of the Scriptures written in His name.

Regards, Robert  bouncy 
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
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RE: View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 7):
Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 4):
What if we lend you a cattle prod instead?

Oh don't do that, you'll have the Hindus up in arms

Indeed! I forgot to consider that. Thanks!
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
cairo
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands.

This would be a good start at maintaining peace in the world; that and solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

There is nothing wrong with just saying to each other: in your countries, you make the rules and as long as you don't attack us, we'll leave you alone. The west doesn't have to try to change the Middle East/ Muslims constantly and the Muslims must tolerate whatever happens solely in the West.

George Bush either believed or was deceived into believing that much of the Muslim world, especially Iraq, was something like occupied France during WW2 - a basically democtratic people yearning for western style government. This is not the case and the Arab-Muslim world should be left alone.

Cairo
 
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yowza
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
liberated people of Afghanistan

Just because the Taliban is gone does not mean they are free.

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
psychic tools

What is a psychic tool exactly?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture

Not true, tolerant western cultures and moderate Islam work well. Just look at my province here in Canada, lots of muslim, no problems. There was talk of some muslims trying to introduce Sharia, this was stmaped out early and moderacy has prevailed on both parts.

Not being a muslim myself I try to keep an open mind with those willing to keep an open mind about things I may believe in. So like I said moderacy is the answer.

YOWza
 
TIA
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands. As simple as that.... and it has been like this since the Crusades when both worlds first fought each other.

I personally hope that the EU doesn't accept Turkey as a new member. I'm currently trying to get the documents needed to prove that my grandma's mother was Spanish so that my grandma can get Spanish citizenship and then pass it on to my mother and me. Then I will vote against if there's a referendum for allowing Turkey in the EU.

And no I'm not a fascist right-winger or a xenophobic person, I just think that we cannot lose our Western values because of Islam. If Europe muslims don't like the cartoons, then go move to Iran.

And let me say that you don't know what you are talking about. Case in point: Albania, a mostly Muslim country, but with more religion tolerance and as liberal as any Western society. If you didn't see the mosques, you wouldn't even know there was a Muslim majority in Albania. Heck, I am the product of Christian-Muslim "compatibility" (to use one of your words). Although raised Christian, my mom is Muslim, while my dad is Eastern Orthodox. For as long as I can remember, we have celebrated both types of religious holidays. So stop thinking that being Western and being Muslim are mutually exclusive.

Turkey is a country, which I have personally visited, and you are wrong about Turkey too. There might be a million reasons why Turkey is not ready to join the EU, but being mostly Muslim is not one of them. Turkey is extremely tolerant and liberal. Did you know that there are 200 CHURCHES in Istanbul, or that the HQ of the Eastern Orthodox Church is there?
However, I will say that I was quite disappointed with Erdogan's comments during the cartoon controversy.

I don't think Spain, or the EU needs close minded individuals like you.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Not true, tolerant western cultures and moderate Islam work well. Just look at my province here in Canada, lots of muslim, no problems. There was talk of some muslims trying to introduce Sharia, this was stmaped out early and moderacy has prevailed on both parts.

Not true. Just because muslims and westerners get along in your province, that doesn't mean it is like this in the rest of the world. Clearly and sadly it ain't that way. If things were like you said, we would live in a happier and more peaceful world.

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
And let me say that you don't know what you are talking about.

I know what I'm talking about, who are you to tell me what I know and what I don't?

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
Heck, I am the product of Christian-Muslim "compatibility"

There are always a few counted exceptions to each rule.

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
For as long as I can remember, we have celebrated both types of religious holidays

Good for you.

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
So stop thinking that being Western and being Muslim are mutually exclusive.

Again, you can't stop me from thinking what I think, I'm free to think whatever I want just as you are. Read again my post, I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just say that they aren't compatible (contradicted values).

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
Did you know that there are 200 CHURCHES in Istanbul

200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
I don't think Spain, or the EU needs close minded individuals like you.

I ain't close minded. The fact that I don't agree with your points of view, doesn't make me a close-minded person. On the other hand, you've proven to lack serious debate skills and your best way to express your opinion has been reduced to attack me which is what usually the ignorant people do.

And guess what? Spain does need me, they are seriously lacking Computer Engineers and young people that are willing to have children .

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

[Edited 2006-03-28 05:58:12]
 
TIA
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
There are always a few counted exceptions to each rule.

More like the norm, than a few counted examples as you put it. Or do you know what the situation in Albania is better than me?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
Again, you can't stop me from thinking what I think, I'm free to think whatever I want just as you are. Read again my post, I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just say that they aren't compatible (contradicted values).

Whatever you are smoking, I want it too.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.

And how many mosques are there in Caracas? 200 churches is not a pathetic number in a mostly muslim city. Did you check to see how many Christians live in Istanbul? Also, did you ever consider the fact that Turks might not be as religious as say Venezuelans, or maybe that people don't need a building to connect with God? Again, as I said you don't know what you are talking about. And the number of churches is proof of the religious tolerance in Turkey.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
I ain't close minded. The fact that I don't agree with your points of view, doesn't make me a close-minded person. On the other hand, you've proven to lack serious debate skills and your best way to express your opinion has been reduced to attack me which is what usually the ignorant people do.

If you make blanket statements like that, guess what: you are a close minded individual. What you are advocating is segregation. Do I have to show you what that is?
And how have I shown a lack of serious debate skills? Maybe because I gave you real life examples that invalidated your claims? You make generalizations about something you know nothing about. Have you ever been to Turkey? Turkey is more liberal than your Venezuela and many other Latin American countries when it comes to social issues such as abortion. As I said, Turkey might not be ready to join the EU, but not because of religion. After all, it's the European Union, not the Christian Union. Religion and politics should not mix.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
And guess what? Spain does need me, they are seriously lacking Computer Engineers and young people that are willing to have children .

Don't worry about Spain needing you. They can get plenty of proper European computer engineers from the Eastern Europe part of the EU.
 
jafa39
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
But most societies of the West have matured sufficiently to keep the behavior of the charlatans of the supernatural in check most of the time and their power attenuated.

You are kidding...right???

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 2):
there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.

Well said that man!!!

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):
a basically democtratic people yearning for western style government. This is not the case and the Arab-Muslim world should be left alone.

A very good point and one that needs to be raised more often. I have spent this last week talking with Muslim Communities, they are quite happy to be Muslims, they think some of their leaders are nuts, like many Yanks think about Bush and Poms about Blair.

Too many assumptions being made, that's why I am putting together some projects with Refugees in NZ so understanding can replace prejudice.

A colleague was asked if she felt scared going into Muslim homes....get a grip world! Their houses aren't all stacked to the rafters with AK47's, hell, The Mongrel Mob and Black Power would probably outgun the Taliban!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ThereandBack
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.

Should they build more just because you think it's pathetic? Turkey is tolerant more tolerant than you. I doubt you have been there to know how tolerant or intolerant the people are. 200 churches is good for a country with a muslim majority.
 
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LTU932
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 7):
Indeed, you are right. God, Allah, Yahweh is not the problem. The problems are often to be found in the interpretations of the Scriptures written in His name.

This is exactly the problem. Misunderstandings can be one of the worst evils in the world. Misinterpretations are the same as misunderstandigs, though in some cases people interpret what they want to interpret.

I personally see Islam as a religion of peace, a religion that has never preached that war is a means to an end. Many Muslim countries, especially in the Arab World, are full of rich history and of beautiful places to visit. Unfortunately, most of the people today think of Islama religion that breeds terrorists, who are waiting to establish and impose a new world order. The media can be blamed for this as well, as they are one of guilty parties who spread this image of fear and terror.

You just cannot judge all Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others by something a minority does. I personally am not stereotyping a whole lot of people just for what one group does. I didn't get the chance of meeting many muslims in my lifetime, but from what I know of them, they're not people who love war. They want peace as badly as everybody else wants. If one accepts Muslims without any prejudice and stereotyping, I'm sure they will accept us and we can have a chance of peaceful coexistence with each other, putting aside any armed conflict and sort our problems through a constructive discussion, instead of bloodshed.

I am an Atheist, and I am fully aware I cannot impose my believes. I accept that my peers don't share my believes and that they are Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. All I want in return is that they accept that I am an Atheist and that they judge me for what I do and how I am as a person, just as I accept that they're all from different cultures and different religions. Bottom line: Judge a person by his or her character or what he or she does, not where he or she comes from, what they believe in.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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yowza
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:09 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
Just because muslims and westerners get along in your province, that doesn't mean it is like this in the rest of the world.

What people can do and what people commonly do are different things. I was simply stating that if all sides are moderate harmony is possible.

YOWza
 
jafa39
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:26 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 17):
What people can do and what people commonly do are different things. I was simply stating that if all sides are moderate harmony is possible.

Spot on! Good man, moderation has become unfashionable of late, when will people get their heads out of their butts and realise how much they are being manipulated into having opinions that perpetrate the agendas of intolerant nutters?

This is why I have told my own brother to stop spending his life on 9/11 conpiracy sites, take a step back and look at what it has made him become.

Look below the horizon dudes, THINK!!!!!!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
mrniji
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands.

Now this is the core statement of this thread! Let us elaborate a little in the entire context:

I agree that secular societies "meet the demands of modernity" much better than any theocracy. But what is secular? Should we impose the hardcore seculraism (=NO RELIGION) of the French on other societies?

I believe no.. secularism again is cultural diverse. In parts of Asia (and in a post-colonial context), it means that religion in society is good! All religions should be treated equally and have a framework provided that enables them to prosper. People should be guided by their positive and human morals they develop from the good sides of the religion.. and people should not be discriminated for belonging to a particular religion or a branch within.. In Europe, the Franch modell might work, with all benefits AND negative sides (crime rates, decline of values - this risky and arguable assessment comes from me, from Asian eyes). In other parts of the World, where religion contributes to the overall construction of society, this won't work. Religion is an integral part of the poeple's life, and the right to practice religion must be granted, as long the rights of other people are not impaired from the former. Hence, we need a secular world, but secularism per se can be modified in accordance with the different regions
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pilotaydin
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy"

I don't get it..... no Turkey in the EU? Because Muslim and West don't comply....but Turkey is secular... unlike the Vatican but they can get along right. In fact most EU nationalities come to south Turkey and undress, drink, smoke up and dance naked on boat tours....
The west installs airbases here in turkey, to spy on other nations, but 54% of turkish men applying for a US visa are rejected and 68% of Turkish men applying for Europe are rejected... Easy jet will fly to Turkey for super cheap prices now, but the amount of paperwork difficulty imposed on Turkish carriers as i have personally seen is unbelievable for them to fly back to Europe. It's sad my country is being overtaken slowly and painfully by western culture, Europe won't need to accept us anymore, we will become a mandate of European and western culture soon, because we are a population that knows nothing outside of War and Sultans, we are being slowly tricked into molding into the perfect place for Western Business to overtake Turkey. We are in an oil rich area, why the hell is gas so expensive? ill tell you why, because BP and SHELL own all the damn resources here and Turkey has no say in it...this is the sad truth, legs wide open, the older and more experienced culture of business, i,e the west, will overtake turkey soon.....

but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
mrniji
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20):
but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself

Good point! As for me, I back you to join the EU ("to pep up 'old Europe' a bit" Big grin ), and I loved to stay in Berlin along with the Turkish community. You might be better of not to join out of Economic reasons though, your market has a better future than parts of the EU

Headz up, man!  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2100
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RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
You might be better of not to join out of Economic reasons though

the turkish economy has no structure, and there are a buttload of money guzzling blackmarkets and corrupt groups, so i think that the EU would be wise to take a GOOD CLEAN look at our system. It would be better to be a partial member of certain freedoms and treaties instead of a full membership
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
Or do you know what the situation in Albania is better than me?

The world ain't just albania pal, that's all I will say for you.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
Whatever you are smoking, I want it too.

Again direct attack on me and not my opinions = lame debate by your part again.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):

And how many mosques are there in Caracas?

When did we start talking about Caracas? There are a few, despite muslims being only 0.000001% of the populaton.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
If you make blanket statements like that, guess what: you are a close minded individual.

My statements are as valid as yours, again you are nobody to discredit my points of view.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
What you are advocating is segregation.

Yeah right..... Is it so hard for you to realize that Islam and Western culture have too many contradicted values? The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.

What is really pathetic is that if a secular country bans religious symbols in schools (France) then muslims revolt saying that their girl need to wear their muslims clothes but if a woman in a muslim country gets stoned to death because her husband accused her of adultery, then that's ok... Again contradicted values.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
Maybe because I gave you real life examples that invalidated your claims?

Example of a very happy exception to what is really going on around the world.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
and many other Latin American countries when it comes to social issues such as abortion.

Really? Have you been to Latin America? I guess not.. so you don't know what you are talking about.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
Religion and politics should not mix.

Tell that to the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran or the ISLAMIC Republic of Mauritania or the ISLAMIC Republic of Afghanistan. Also tell that to the northern part of Nigeria.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
Don't worry about Spain needing you. They can get plenty of proper European computer engineers from the Eastern Europe part of the EU.

Yeah they need me. I speak their language, I'm very familiar with their culture. Their constitution makes exceptions to facilitate Spanish citizenship to nationals of my country. Im pretty sure the Spanish govt. would rather have me than another foreigner that would have to attend Spanish Language classes, etc.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20):

I don't get it..... no Turkey in the EU? Because Muslim and West don't comply....but Turkey is secular... unlike the Vatican but they can get along right. In fact most EU nationalities come to south Turkey and undress, drink, smoke up and dance naked on boat tours....
The west installs airbases here in turkey, to spy on other nations, but 54% of turkish men applying for a US visa are rejected and 68% of Turkish men applying for Europe are rejected... Easy jet will fly to Turkey for super cheap prices now, but the amount of paperwork difficulty imposed on Turkish carriers as i have personally seen is unbelievable for them to fly back to Europe. It's sad my country is being overtaken slowly and painfully by western culture, Europe won't need to accept us anymore, we will become a mandate of European and western culture soon, because we are a population that knows nothing outside of War and Sultans, we are being slowly tricked into molding into the perfect place for Western Business to overtake Turkey. We are in an oil rich area, why the hell is gas so expensive? ill tell you why, because BP and SHELL own all the damn resources here and Turkey has no say in it...this is the sad truth, legs wide open, the older and more experienced culture of business, i,e the west, will overtake turkey soon.....

but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself

Very good post. Completely agree with you. If this keeps going this way, it will fuel radical nationalist movements in Turkey.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
TIA
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:42 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
Is it so hard for you to realize that Islam and Western culture have too many contradicted values?

When will you ever get it that Western culture doesn't mean Christian culture?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.

Who was talking about Iran? No one said that Iran should be allowed to join the EU. This was about Turkey and you putting ALL Muslims in the same category.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
Example of a very happy exception to what is really going on around the world.

It's not a very happy exception. Leaving Albania aside, there are 70 million people living in Turkey in religious harmony.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):

Really? Have you been to Latin America? I guess not.. so you don't know what you are talking about.

Again, wrong my friend. I have been to Latin America. Isn't abortion illegal in Venezuela? Yet, it is legal in Turkey.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
Tell that to the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran or the ISLAMIC Republic of Mauritania or the ISLAMIC Republic of Afghanistan. Also tell that to the northern part of Nigeria.

Again, the case in point was Turkey and ALL Muslims, according to your blanket statement. And I am as opposed to any Islamic republic as one can get, but Turkey isn't one. And just to clarify something with your examples, the Christian dominated parts of Nigeria are just as extremist as the Muslim ones.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
Im pretty sure the Spanish govt. would rather have me than another foreigner that would have to attend Spanish Language classes, etc.

Newsflash: You are just another foreigner as long as you don't have Spanish citizenship. Just because you know Spanish doesn't make you Spanish.
 
TACAA320
Topic Author
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 14):

You are kidding...right???

Did you read the above link?
I don't think so.
Here again...

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):

Complete text and source: http://blony.com/index.php?cat=14
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands.

it is NOT to "impose" democracy. It is to help countries to find ways towards more democracy. Not by invading countries. And few Muslims in the West have "cultural demands". Maybe that the permission to have a Mosque is requested and maybe a minaret.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
can get Spanish citizenship and then pass it on to my mother and me. Then I will vote against if there's a referendum for allowing Turkey in the EU.

I can well remember when "Central Europeans" discussed whether Spain should be taken into the E.U. and whether "those" Spaniards would become "real" Europeans. Turkey is part of Europe and has no alternative to Europe. Nowhere else to go.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1):
If Europe muslims don't like the cartoons, then go move to Iran.

while most Muslims did not exactly love those cartoons, few felt outraged at all, and with the exception of some strict-minded Iranians, few Muslims in Europe feel an urge to emigrate to Iran. And I strongly suppose that Iran would NOT allow such an immigration anyway.
 Yeah sure Yeah, sure (sarcastically)
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: My View On Islam

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Turkey is part of Europe and has no alternative to Europe. Nowhere else to go.

Sure, since they watch our Bollywood movies, they should join the proposed South Asian union Big grin - they would be most welcome  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12):
Just because muslims and westerners get along in your province, that doesn't mean it is like this in the rest of the world.

it may not mean it, but it is like most of the rest of the world
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 28):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Turkey is part of Europe and has no alternative to Europe. Nowhere else to go.

Sure, since they watch our Bollywood movies, they should join the proposed South Asian union - they would be most welcome

There you go stirring up shit again Mrniji.

 Wink  Wink

BTW good to see you back on the block.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6318
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):

I can well remember when "Central Europeans" discussed whether Spain should be taken into the E.U. and whether "those" Spaniards would become "real" Europeans. Turkey is part of Europe and has no alternative to Europe. Nowhere else to go.

Anyone sane with elementary knowledge of history and geography would hardly challenge Spain's "presence" in Europe. On the other hand Turkey isn't there gegraphically in the first place (ok, one suburb of Istanbul is) not to mention cultural and religious incompatibility.
No matter how hard you try to spin it Turkey's presence in Europe was always unwelcome and inferior.
Not to mention the fact that I don't see any incentive in EU's outer borders being with countries like Iraq, Syria or Iran.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
while most Muslims did not exactly love those cartoons, few felt outraged at all

If Tukey was member during the cartoon crisis Erdogan would most likely veto the EU (quite appeasing) resolution would join Solana in his mission to Saudi Arabia to suck up to whabbists promising introduction of censorship. (it's just scary to think someone like Solana was head of NATO not too long ago)

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Maybe that the permission to have a Mosque is requested and maybe a minaret.

and maybe even Sharia law few years later?
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
not to mention cultural and religious incompatibility.

Not as incompatible as Eastern Europe is  sarcastic 

[Edited 2006-03-28 18:32:44]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6318
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 32):
Not as incompatible as Eastern Europe is


Exactly... Eastern Europe

Whatever, Mrniji, whatever...  rotfl 

[Edited 2006-03-28 18:47:00]
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
one suburb of Istanbul

the CENTRE of Istanbul is on the European side, there only are suburbs on the "Asian" side. And by the criteria of CEPT, the European Postal Union, also Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan are Europe. Beside the point that Cyprus, geographically Asian and Malta, geographically African/Arab, have both become full members of the E.U.
-
few Muslims in Europe have ANY sympathy for Sharia-law, and most Arab countries are Secularist (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan)
 
TIA
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:42 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
Anyone sane with elementary knowledge of history and geography would hardly challenge Spain's "presence" in Europe.

No one was challeninging Spain's claim that it belonged geographically in Europe, but more than one person questioned the compatibility of Spain with the "European" way of doing things.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
On the other hand Turkey isn't there gegraphically in the first place (ok, one suburb of Istanbul is) not to mention cultural and religious incompatibility.

Where the borders of Europe start and end has been debated for centuries with no clear conclusion. If you want to concentrate on natural borders, then Turkey is partly (more than a suburb) in Europe, so it has European geographical claims. Actually the ironic thing about Istanbul is that its Asian part is more developed and modern than the European part. About cultural and religious incompatibility, give me a break. Apparently you haven't been to Turkey, which is quite liberal. Ataturk might have been a ruthless dictator but he did modernize the country. And as I said before, it's the European Union, not the Christian Union.
Do you consider Russians European? Their country is mostly outside Europe too. What about the UK and Ireland? They are both EU members BTW. Should Albania not be allowed to join (when and if it fulfills all the standards), or not since technically speaking it is mostly Muslim?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
Erdogan would most likely veto the EU (quite appeasing) resolution

Erdogan is a little too religious for a state head, and I wish he had not been elected, but also don't forget that he is also close friends with Berlusconi, the leader of one of the most religious countries in Europe. So I guess there must be some compatibility after all. Either way, Turkey has been and will remain a secular country.
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 25):
Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 14):

You are kidding...right???

Did you read the above link?
I don't think so.
Here again...

Just words, I will think what I think about western cultures thank you. You seem to fall into a pattern when you post, if people don't believe what you believe you get all shirty and pompous.

Well one day you might just get a little wake-up call, for now, try and be a little more open minded dude!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
TACAA320
Topic Author
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 36):
thank you.

You're welcome.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 24):
When will you ever get it that Western culture doesn't mean Christian culture?

Let me remind you that western culture started in the Greek Empire which then turned into the Roman Empire which adopted Christianity as their religion. After Rome, Christianity was spread across Europe=Western World. The values of the West are clearly based in Christianity. It was until a couple hundred years ago that the Western World decided that Church and State had to be two different things but still the culture remained based in Christianity. How much more ignorant can you get? You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Quoting TIA (Reply 24):
Who was talking about Iran?

Iran is an example.

Quoting TIA (Reply 24):
there are 70 million people living in Turkey in religious harmony.

hmm and 99.8% of them are muslim (sunni)... of course they get along very well. Not even Indonesia, which is the most populated muslim country, has such a high percentage of muslims in its population. There goes your other foot... you must be running out of bullets.

Quoting TIA (Reply 24):

Again, wrong my friend. I have been to Latin America. Isn't abortion illegal in Venezuela? Yet, it is legal in Turkey

So a country that legalized abortion is more tolerant than a country that doesn't? Come on gimme a break...

Quoting TIA (Reply 24):

Newsflash: You are just another foreigner as long as you don't have Spanish citizenship. Just because you know Spanish doesn't make you Spanish

My mother's family are direct descendants of Spanish Inmigrants who came here at the turn of the century. We have lots of Spanish influence in our family and only a bureocratic hassle is preventing me from holding a Spanish Passport right now. I know spanish, I know the culture, I know the country thus I'm easier to integrate in their society than an inmigrant from Mauritania.

Enough time wasting with you this is my last post to this thread... I think it has been proven many times now, how intolerant you are regarding others' opinions and how your main debate skills consist of personal attacks on the other person.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: My View On Islam

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:09 pm

As this thread HAS gotten very political, I'll throw this out.

How can we say that we can have a FREE and DEMOCRATIC Iraq, when that free Iraq would let their citizens talk freely about the muslim faith [negatively] which is supposed to be very sinful in the muslim culture?
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
ThereandBack
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:26 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20):
I don't get it..... no Turkey in the EU? Because Muslim and West don't comply....but Turkey is secular... unlike the Vatican but they can get along right. In fact most EU nationalities come to south Turkey and undress, drink, smoke up and dance naked on boat tours....
The west installs airbases here in turkey, to spy on other nations, but 54% of turkish men applying for a US visa are rejected and 68% of Turkish men applying for Europe are rejected... Easy jet will fly to Turkey for super cheap prices now, but the amount of paperwork difficulty imposed on Turkish carriers as i have personally seen is unbelievable for them to fly back to Europe. It's sad my country is being overtaken slowly and painfully by western culture, Europe won't need to accept us anymore, we will become a mandate of European and western culture soon, because we are a population that knows nothing outside of War and Sultans, we are being slowly tricked into molding into the perfect place for Western Business to overtake Turkey. We are in an oil rich area, why the hell is gas so expensive? ill tell you why, because BP and SHELL own all the damn resources here and Turkey has no say in it...this is the sad truth, legs wide open, the older and more experienced culture of business, i,e the west, will overtake turkey soon.....

but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself

This has to be the best post I have seen in this website since I joined as a memeber. Very well said.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20):

That is an absolutely beautiful post and shoots in the foot a lot of this "us v. them" talk that has been thrown around so recklessly. Turkey has one of the largest Moslem populations in the world (recently a larger percentage of Turks identified as Moslem than Iranians) and is a bastion of free enterprise and freedom in general.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:31 am

thank you guys i really appreciate your comments..... i re read this post with the newer answers and i think everyone is trying to say, somewhat, the same thing. The reason why most of us argue here, is because there are no clear set rules for joining the EU. Think of it like science, in science experiments, we have the MOST important factor - the control. The control doesn't change, or the control is the set up that has no alterations from its nature. Well here are some details of how i think, do tell me what you disagree with i am interested. The EU isn't some video club that we can join by handing in a simply answered application, but rather, the EU is like one of those awards the people get in high school for best effort, or most improved student....the guidelines are mushy, and the criteria have no solid set items that can be checked off as candidates are evaluated. Well transpose this to Turkey and the EU. There is only one Turkey, and only ONE EU, and therefore there will only really be ONE set of criteria...but how can you make criteria for something without trend and a past. In other words, since this is a one time thing only, like each emergency in an aircraft (no two are even close) you make up the rules as you go on. This window of oppurtunity to make up rules is the perfect place for left or right wing, extreme religious beliefs or personal influences to vary the results and path of the EU. This is the real issue, i feel the events in the EU are not a public opinion anymore, it feels like the EU is a rich gentlemen's club where the high coats make the decisions for their own pleasure. I think that the bigger issue in time will be whether or not the EU wants to be a tightly knit, similar functioning culture, or a more flexible economic oriented package. I don't believe anywhere in this world a union can exist where the culture is preseved AND economic prosperity is high priority. As i recall, ANYTHING is life is a tradeoff....altitude for airspeed my friends....

In conclusion, discussing the boundaries of Europe on a round earth are pointless, the words used to label continents were not borders of nations, but borders of cultures...for example...does a color have a boundary? no it doesnt....whatever is yellow, is called yellow, if it has a pattern, like yellow and black, then we call it yellow with some black....just like EurAsia, because Asia carries the darker race trait, and more islam, and Europe carries the whiter christian folk....
I think the EU started out well, but now who is the EU really grouping up against? no one ever challenged Europe to compete in anything, if you say the USA....i dont agree, the USA has set itself up to battle with itself, nothing to do with Europe really. So in short, Turkey joining or not will have absolutely no effect on Europe...i mean Turkish food and people are already a large part of Europe...what more is there to life than humans and food??
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
Well, you have religious nuts everywhere, is the most I will sa

Agree. GWB and Taliban is almost the same. I think religion is most dangerous and superfluous. 95 % of the wars in the world were because of so called religions.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.

You obviously don't know anything about Iran if you are serious about that. The rule of law still exists in Iran, regardless of misconceptions, and a woman in a provocative outfit would not be killed, randomly or by a court.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.

Thank you. The day Western Women walk around like this in India, we have finally been subdued by the West. Tomorrow you will say that the day people can dring two bottles of Absinth in front of the Kaba in Mecca Saudi Arabia will be liberated.

You imply with your blatant statements that you have no idea about diversity worldwide, cultural relativism et al. And you imply that you believe in supremacy of Western values without showing a modicum of respect for other cultures. Keep your practices in your borders, I respect it. But do not enforce anything that defines lifestyle for you on us. We have another history and are differntly constructed in terms of culture

You guys oughta respect our values (if you want to have business exchange, tourism and pi pa po in our country) - elsewise face the legal consequences. If you don't like it: don't visit us and rather get wasted in any club in Zoho, Manhattan or wheresoever you can find your light-dressed Blondes  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6318
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 45):
You guys oughta respect our values



Quoting Mrniji (Reply 45):
If you don't like it: don't visit us

Our? Us? Your current flag makes it a bit confusing, who is meant by "our" and "us".
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 38):
based in Christianity

Modern Europe started when people became more secular and the Christian "basis" got somewhat more into the background. And there are Muslim countries like Albania and Bosnia INside Europe.
-
Turkey: you may realize that Istanbul sports an impressing number of impressive churches, AND that the HQ of the Greek Orthodox Church still is in Istanbul (downtown / Euro- side) .
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
Our? Us? Your current flag makes it a bit confusing, who is meant by "our" and "us".

Sincere Apology: I use the known "colonial" we/they distinction in a new concept - i.e. the "Other" World, the "Orient", the "Developing Countries", The "South" vs. the "West", the "North", the so-called "Developed World"

You are right, with we I meant the "South" - I switched the flas location-wise recently
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: My View On Islam

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 2):
Let's face it - some followers need closer supervision than others do, and in my humble opinion, there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.

That's just PC garbage. You don't see the Buddhists, Christians or Taoists blowing people up in the name of their beliefs. But there is a sizable portion of the muslim poulation that don't mind that at all, and to be fair, there is a Jewish minority (the hardline colonizers) who are the same.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
As I've said before, the "creation science" thing is something I have big problems with, and that's a staple of the extreme religious right, in my view.

I agree, and that is my main problem with the Americans today.

Quote:
"Regardless of what you may personally believe, which of these do you believe should be taught in public schools?
"Evolution only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Evolution says that human beings evolved from earlier stages of animals.]
"Creationism only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Creationism says that human beings were created directly by God.]
"Intelligent design only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Intelligent design says that human beings are so complex that they required a powerful force or intelligent being to help create them.]
"All three."

.

%
Evolution only 12
Creationism only 23
Intelligent design only 4
All three 55
None of these (vol.) 3
Unsure 3

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

So I think it is safe to say that some 27% of the US population are total nutjobs. Luckily, none of them have resorted to Taliban-style murder and violence.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):
George Bush either believed or was deceived into believing that much of the Muslim world, especially Iraq, was something like occupied France during WW2 - a basically democtratic people yearning for western style government. This is not the case and the Arab-Muslim world should be left alone.

Reading a lot of his texts, there is no question in my mind that this is in fact what he believed. This issue lately with the Christian convert in Afghanistan must have come as a rude shock to him. That little episode proved to the world that the general mentality of Afghanistan is still in the 12th century. The western world has generally grown out of such draconian intolerance, since the times of the crusades and the Inquisition. Large parts of the Islamic world have not.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Not true, tolerant western cultures and moderate Islam work well. Just look at my province here in Canada, lots of muslim, no problems. There was talk of some muslims trying to introduce Sharia, this was stmaped out early and moderacy has prevailed on both parts.

But Muslims are a minority in Canada. What do you think the outcome would have been if they were the majority?

Quoting TIA (Reply 11):
Case in point: Albania, a mostly Muslim country, but with more religion tolerance and as liberal as any Western society.

Poor example. Albania was a Stalinist dictatorship until a decade ago, where religion was controlled ruthlessly. You can't compare Albania to other countries where Islam has been allowed to dominate culture and life for many years.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 43):
Agree. GWB and Taliban is almost the same.

Now that is stupid. When was the last time GWB ordered his entire country to become born-again, and threatened to have anyone who refused stoned to death?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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