andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 48):

Ever hear of something called the League of Nations

The US was never a member of the League of Nations.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 48):
Vietnam was a war against the commies, the people republicans tend to fear most.

Shall we assume that democrats like communists?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 48):
Ever hear of something called Pearl Harbor?
North Korea started the fing war
Vietnam was a war against the commies, the people republicans tend to fear most.

Haiti wasn't a war it was a UN peacekeeping mission
Same with Bosnia
Same with Kosovo.

Should have tried more diplomacy  sarcastic 
 
redngold
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
Throwing your hands up and just accepting defeat is a loser's attitude.

Thousands of Iraqis, Americans, and allied troops have died already. Our government is pouring money into this sinkhole while people back home suffer many of the same indignities as the Iraqis. Where are our priorities?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
You ALWAYS assess your options and formulate a plan to accomplish the mission. It's foolish to assume your original plan of action will unfold perfectly to plan.

I think that the President's plans were inadequate and built on false premises. When we deposed Saddam and discovered that there were no weapons of mass destruction, we should have pulled out. End of story.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
Only the dead or soon to be dead think any situation is "lose-lose".

No, only the foolish jump into a situation without thinking through the consequences. I'd rather be smart and slightly injured than dead along with my foe because I got into something I shouldn't have started.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
something to sooth your rage.

I have no rage over this. I am a pacifist.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
We gain an emboldened enemy and increased threat.

We already have. Deaths continue to pile up. The leaders of Al Qaeda in Iraq are still alive.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
Hell! Why don't you referendum the issue for the voters to decide?

That, my dear sir, is unconstitutional. Impeachment is the only recourse specified in the Constitution which you are sworn to defend as a United States military soldier.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
just so you can stop being so bitter.

Again, you project your own anger and rage on me. I am not bitter. I believe there were better ways to solve the problems we had with Iraq, and I believe that there were points in this war when we could have pulled out much more easily.

I pray for the safety of our troops. I rejoice when they come home safe. But understand this - I do not support the use of deadly force and warfare. I know that it is nearly impossible for you to understand or accept that paradox, but it is the truth.
Up, up and away!
 
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casinterest
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:43 am

To get it all straight on this whole war thing.

Iraq was the first time we instigated a military canidacy without an invasion or overt attack by Iraq. In order to go in, there had to be a conviction by the US that there were in fact WMD's . Without this the UN would not have blessed it, and congress would have given more of a fight. If the WMD evidence was wrong, then what else is wrong in what we percieve of the goverment and it's interpretation of world events?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
andessmf
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 52):

Iraq was the first time we instigated a military canidacy without an invasion or overt attack by Iraq

Did we get attacked or was Germany an imminent danger to the US in WWI or WWII? What about the Korean war? Did the North Vietnamese ever attack the US? Did the Serbs?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 52):
In order to go in, there had to be a conviction by the US that there were in fact WMD's

I thought it was for oil and/or revenge?  sarcastic 

Quoting Redngold (Reply 51):
Our government is pouring money into this sinkhole while people back home suffer many of the same indignities as the Iraqis

Please, what indignities? Sectarian violence? Car bombs? Suicide attacks?

Quoting Redngold (Reply 51):
The leaders of Al Qaeda in Iraq are still alive.

Right, lets see. Did we ever kill/capture Hitler? Was Emperor Hirohito jailed? Kim in North Korea? Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam? There are still two Bosnian war criminals at large. Do you see any complaining about the failure of that mission?

Quoting Redngold (Reply 51):
I am a pacifist.

There is pacifism and there is inaction. You are no pacifist, you advocate inaction. There are people in the world who advocate KILLING you for not being a Muslim, and these people are the ones who guide this 'jihad' against the West, or better said, non-muslim nations. I am sorry, but if anyone advocates my DEATH for a different point of view, I want to see that person dead. You can reason with reasonable people, some of these Islamic fundamentalists are not reasonable. Therefore, no discussions will ever bear fruit.

And what has pacifism brought to this world. Hitler and WWII would not have happened had the world answered his government from long before the invasion of Poland. If we had pre-emptively struck Germany prior to 1938, both sides would have suffered casualties, but not 52 million dead human beings. And that is what pacifism has brought.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:09 am

Did the North Vietnamese ever attack the US?

Google Tonkin Gulf Incident or USS Maddox

Did it really happen? ...who knows, it's a moot point.   Wink

Let me add...
What's more important was the Congressional Resolution that came thereafter. It affects us to this day.

[Edited 2006-04-26 01:31:38]
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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HeyMach
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:12 am

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/deboro/Gif/a1892c71.jpg
 
wardialer
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:16 am

Bush is considered the best presidents I ever knew...I dont agree with his Iraq/Iran tactics or whatever, but our economy the best we ever had in a long time.

Dont be crying...OK?? Because domestically, he is doing a great job.
 
redngold
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 53):
There is pacifism and there is inaction

By your definition, warfare is proper action and lack of warfare or deadly force is inaction. There is much middle ground.

We were working through diplomatic routes. Iraq tired of us/UN going after them time and time again when there were no weapons of mass destruction to be found. I'm sure the U.S. would do the same if its sovereignty was violated time and time again in a wild goose chase.

The only valid reason - remaining - for us to invade Iraq was to remove Saddam Hussein from power, and I question whether we had a moral right to do that when people are having their opinions suppressed (or charged, as in Wang Wenyi), not getting enough food, dying of gun violence and violent crime on the streets, children having children and/or killing their children in the name of "reproductive freedom," and other crimes against the humanity of individuals take place unchecked in our own country.

We should look at our own internal problems before sticking our fingers into the problems of other nations.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 53):
And what has pacifism brought to this world. Hitler and WWII would not have happened had the world answered his government from long before the invasion of Poland. If we had pre-emptively struck Germany prior to 1938, both sides would have suffered casualties, but not 52 million dead human beings. And that is what pacifism has brough

That was not pacifism; that was concession and inaction. As you stated yourself, there is a difference between pacifism and inaction. You make an invalid comparison.
Up, up and away!
 
11Bravo
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 49):
The truth is... nothing you, or anyone else here, have argued, has presented a convincing case why my buddies and I should accept greater risk to our LIVES and our MISSION

No, the truth is that Bush is the one who has put you and your fellow soldiers at risk. His bad judgement and completely incompetent management of this conflict is threatening your safety, not dissenters here at home. The top levels of your chain of command are responsible for this clusterfuck, not the American People. As Marine Lieutenant General Greg Newbold so aptly said:

Quote:
What we are living with now is the consequences of successive policy failures. Some of the missteps include: the distortion of intelligence in the buildup to the war, McNamara-like micromanagement that kept our forces from having enough resources to do the job, the failure to retain and reconstitute the Iraqi military in time to help quell civil disorder, the initial denial that an insurgency was the heart of the opposition to occupation, alienation of allies who could have helped in a more robust way to rebuild Iraq, and the continuing failure of the other agencies of our government to commit assets to the same degree as the Defense Department. My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions--or bury the results.

You want to ask why things are the way they are; go ask your boss.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
andessmf
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 57):
We were working through diplomatic routes. Iraq tired of us/UN going after them time and time again when there were no weapons of mass destruction to be found

But there WAS a nuclear black market occurring, by the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb, A.Q. Khan. Mr. Khan was also nice enough to help out Iran and North Korea. If we hadnt taken Saddam out 3 years ago, people would be complaining about the lack of foresight from Bush for not having removed him, just like a lot of people complained in 1991.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
just another person venting frustration with the notion of impeachment, but not really serious about it.

I think he was venting that this president sucks, and everything he's doing right now is a disaster, and that we can't wait till he's gone. That's what I think it was about.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
Does anyone at home remember there is a war going on?

Yes, and it was started by this president, under false pretenses, for an objective that wasn't told to the American people.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
And if so, do you think this is the most effective way of fighting it?

I don't think he should be impeached, based on what we know now, but there's enough out there, as far as I can tell, that there should be serious-SERIOUS investigations into how we were led to war; what Bush and Cheney are hiding with all their secretive ways; in handing out huge tax breaks for the wealthy-DURING A WAR.

This whole adminstrations smells, and it needs to be investigated. One problem, the GOP controls Congress, and they stink just as bad, and won't raise a finger no matter what Bush does.

No, he shouldn't be impeached. But I will vent and count down the days his sorry but goes back to Crawford for good.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
What is going on and being said does get heard here in Iraq by the troops, and more importantly, the insurgents

Yes it does. And the insurgants are a huge constrast to us: they don't like what's going on, they blow people up. We don't like what's going on, we protest peacefully and without violence-in front of the White House, or the Capitol, or in our cities, or on this forum.

To me, what we do here shows the STRENGTH, not the weakness of this nation, my friend: that we can disagree without killing each other. Isn't that what we should be teaching the Iraqi's?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
And furthermore, what kind of signal does that send to the fledgling Iraqi government?

It sends the clearest, most powerful signal it could send to them: if you want to survive, do like us, argue peacefully, and don't resort to violence.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 1):
It is just the usual crap from the Bush haters. They've been at it since January 9, 2001.

Pot calling the kettle black, my friend. You did it for 8 1/2 years, and the nation was much better off under the guy you hated. You just can't stand the nation has finally figured your hero out, and sees him for the con artist he is.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
The people interested in hurting the President forget that in order to do so they must damage the US elsewhere as our enemies will take heart and gain morale from the idea that their situation may change as the Spaniards did when their government changed.

Seems to me, my friend, that the Republicans didn't give a rats behind about "hurting the country" during it's 8 1/2 year witchunt of Mr. Clinton, did it? And he didn't send us into an ill-gotten, never-ending conflict that has cost close to 3000 American lives; he didn't squander our good will after a major castatrophe, because of his arrogance and self-righteousness, as Bush did after 9/11 and before Iraq; that president didn't bully the world into what he wanted; that president didn't give the wealthy huge tax breaks while we were fighting not one, but TWO wars.

That's pretty hypocritical. But you're wrong, I think. We don't want to hurt this nation. To the contrary, we KNOW it can do better than the poor, secretive, decitful, arrogant "leadership" we've had for 8 years, and a majority of Americans are sick of this guy.

I'll type more later. The east coast arrivals are coming in.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Confuscius
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:50 am

You want to ask why things are the way they are; go ask your boss.


Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the...

Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Ain't I a stinker?
 
redngold
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 59):

But there WAS a nuclear black market occurring, by the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb, A.Q. Khan. Mr. Khan was also nice enough to help out Iran and North Korea.

There were no weapons of mass destruction, period. That was the rationale for the war, not the nuclear black market. You're making up excuses after the fact...
Up, up and away!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 62):
There were no weapons of mass destruction, period

Factually incorrect, and proven to be so many times over.

But hey, what good are facts when rhetoric carries the day?

I'm still wondering, what crime is Bush to be impeached for?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):

Seems to me, my friend, that the Republicans didn't give a rats behind about "hurting the country" during it's 8 1/2 year witchunt of Mr. Clinton, did it?

Turnaround is fair play?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
he didn't squander our good will after a major castatrophe

Did he have a major catastrophe to handle?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
we KNOW it can do better

Right, as one example, home prices could go down, making homes ownership more affordable.  sarcastic 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
that president didn't bully the world into what he wanted

Right, Bush bullied the world into supporting him in Iraq.  sarcastic  As a matter of fact, what has Bush gotten from the world that he wanted?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
And he didn't send us into an ill-gotten, never-ending conflict

We are still is Bosnia, right?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
Yes, and it was started by this president, under false pretenses, for an objective that wasn't told to the American people.

Pray tell, what was the objective that wasnt told?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
hurting the country

From the Clinton tax increase on the wealthy of 1993:

"For Social Security recipients, up to 85% of Social Security benefits taxable for married retirees with income in excess of $44,000and for single retirees income in excess of $34,000"

"Exemptions under the Alternative Minimum Tax increased as follows: to $45,000 from $40,000 for married individuals filing jointreturns; to $22,500 from $20,000 for married individuals filing separate returns, as well as estates and trusts; to $33,750 from $30,000 for single individuals.
 
redngold
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):

Factually incorrect, and proven to be so many times over.

Show me the money. Or are you talking about pre-1991, such a moot point?

Both sides throw out "facts" that are based on bad intelligence or lack of intelligence in general. Bush wanted a war to vindicate his daddy. He used post-9/11 emotions as a springboard. What's worse than a war based on bad facts? - a war based on manipulation of emotions.
Up, up and away!
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 65):
Show me the money.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...rary/report/2004/isg-final-report/

Have fun, WMD's existed in Iraq at the time of the invasion. Ergo, your statement; "There were no weapons of mass destruction, period" is as I said.... factually incorrect.

Now, answer they key question that you avoided.

What crime is Bush to be impeached for?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 65):
Both sides throw out "facts" that are based on bad intelligence or lack of intelligence in general. Bush wanted a war to vindicate his daddy. He used post-9/11 emotions as a springboard

Oh, c'mon. 'No blood for oil', 'WMDs', now revenge.

Now see this link, and tell me what you think.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/12/iraq.nuclear/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.nuclear/index.html
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 64):
We are still is Bosnia, right?

You comparing Bosnia to Iraq?

You're off your rocker, dude. 'Nuff said.

I'm sure B757300 appreciates your Bush kissing, though.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
redngold
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 66):

What crime is Bush to be impeached for?

Most recently, violation of the First Amendment rights of Wang Wenyi.
Up, up and away!
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 69):
Most recently, violation of the First Amendment rights of Wang Wenyi.

So, no, you can't come up with a serious charge against Bush.

Thank you for participating
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 70):
Quoting Redngold (Reply 69):
Most recently, violation of the First Amendment rights of Wang Wenyi.

So, no, you can't come up with a serious charge against Bush.

Thank you for participating

Check the dictionary for "Sarcasm". Thank you.  Silly
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 68):
You comparing Bosnia to Iraq?

No, but I remember Clinton telling us that we would be out of Bosnia by 1995. And do you remember any strong opposition from the republican side? Do we call Bosnia a quagmire? What about Germany, Japan, and South Korea? Those wars were over decades ago. Shall we call the US imperialists for not leaving a 'conquered' country?

And again, we provide links to articles regarding Iraq and WMDs, and what do we get? Silence.

[Edited 2006-04-26 02:49:07]
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 70):

So, no, you can't come up with a serious charge against Bush.

I'd say that violation of First Amendment rights, when he swore on the Bible to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States," is a very serious charge.

Apparently you agree with the degradation of our First Amendment rights so long as it forwards your cause. No sarcasm at all.
Up, up and away!
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 60):
Seems to me, my friend, that the Republicans didn't give a rats behind about "hurting the country" during it's 8 1/2 year witchunt of Mr. Clinton, did it?

A. So it's ok to do it now? "Johnny did it too!"? You wouldn't accept that argument.

B. We weren't at war until after that process began, and the timing of that campaign sort of stood out. He waited until he was in real trouble to intervene. Besides, President Clinton lied in a court of law, and was in trouble for that. Proven and accepted, and he was tried for violating basic ethics.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 45):
So you would rather we were in a totalitarian state where people can't voice opinions dissenting from the government?

Nope. I'm not saying that at all. People are free to say what they want, I just wish they'd exercise some personal restraint.....or at least look around and say out loud that they'll back the play of our national strategy until it's changed. Our enemies think that all they need to do is outwait us. It's worked in the past.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 45):
Exactly how did Liberals get us into wars? I'd love to see which ones you think we got into due to liberals.

WWI (Wilson tried to mugwump in the face of European imperialism and expansionist tendencies), WWII (Roosevelt did not look outward until it was too late, and the liberals in Europe decided to deal with Hitler instead of squashing him when it was possible), Korea (liberals decided to avoid mentioning South Korea in our "umbrella policy speech" by Harriman as well as others and otherwise gutted our military (with glee, I might mention) to the point we were incapable of preventing the invasion), Vietnam (by expanding the role of our forces without giving them the necessary freedom to win the damned thing by occupying North Vietnam...which would have been a fools mission anyway....they should have left it at a Special Forces mission)...I guess I could go on.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 45):

Well please tell me how exactly you interpret the "you are either with us or against us statement"

Some things are black or white. If you are not with the United States in this war on terror (although "with" could mean simply not working against us militarily, economically or politically) then you are definitely against us. Why is that complicated or evil?

The nations that work against the US in the war on terrorists around the world in any of the realms identified above are against us. What's the question or hidden evil there? Many on the left have used that phrase as a tool against President Bush, but I wonder whether they stopped to consider that our enemies (and we do have them) hear them do that and whether they feel that those enemies are making adjustments based on that.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
Does anyone at home remember there is a war going on? And if so, do you think this is the most effective way of fighting it? What the hell has happened here? Where is the realism and pragmatism?

Does anyone at home remember there is a war going on?

Bush's war that he lied the country into supporting (Americans watch too much TV).

What the hell has happened here?

Even the fake patriots are deciding that it's not worth the cost in lives and money and it's making the USA's position in the world worse off.

Where is the realism and pragmatism?

Boy, it sure would be nice if Bush was either.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 73):
I'd say that violation of First Amendment rights, when he swore on the Bible to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States," is a very serious charge.

Removeing a disruptive heckler isn't a violation of the First Amendment.

Before makeing charges based on constitutional rights, you might want to first learn what your consitutional rights are... especially in concern to visiting foreign dignitaries who have security concerns.

[Edited 2006-04-26 04:09:38]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 72):
What about Germany, Japan, and South Korea? Those wars were over decades ago.

Good God, but you're reaching now! Incredible!
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 30):
you are already covered and to hell with those who can't help themsleves.

Or, perhaps those of us who pay for our health insurance make it so that the government has more money available to help those who can't help themselves.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 34):
One of the characteristics of smart people is that they understand their own limitations and they seek to check their own conclusions by encouraging a diversity of views within their own circle.

Definitely a rarity around here.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 69):
Most recently, violation of the First Amendment rights of Wang Wenyi.

Then I nominate Wen Ho Lee

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 71):
Check the dictionary for "Sarcasm". Thank you.



Quoting Redngold (Reply 73):
No sarcasm at all.

Wrong once...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 77):
Good God, but you're reaching now! Incredible!

No, you are not understanding. I am simply responding to arguments that others have made about the mistakes in Iraq, and simply pointing out the similarities with other past conflicts. The way some of you are complaning can easily be turned around to other previous conflicts that we won, and nobody is now complaining about the good results of those past conflicts.

Wrong twice...
 
wardialer
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:10 pm

I dont understand this at all....

Bush has become a hero when it comes to the Nation's economy...Its the best it has ever been because you know why??? WAR.

YES!!!! WAR....Bush invaded Iraq to boost up the economy after 9/11 attacks and then we had that mild recession at that time too also...You folks dont understand it at all.

Look, war is bad....But it can boost up the economy by our producing moew jobs at the defense industry, which will happen again if we invade Iran also.

But another thing about Iran, Yes, Iran has Nuclear materials but its not for making nukes as we think. There using it as nuclear powered energy source...

And again, I dont agree with the whole Iraq situation, but if we do go into Iran we will make that anothee mistake again, because Iran is using that nuclear materials as nuvlear energy...

Its like saying that San Onefre (the energy Nuclear Plant) down by San Diego is used for making nukes....If we invade Iran...BIG MISTAKE...there too.

But as far as the economy...ITS GREAT as ever been before.

Bush is the greatest president that ever made it to the White House as far as our economy goes...Sorry, but its the truth and I am NOT smoking anything if thats what you want to know...

[Edited 2006-04-26 05:12:26]
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:27 pm

I didn't even both reading most of this thread, simply because I've read the same thread countless times here and on other forums I participate in online. But, I would like to offer some perspective.



How many people have to DIE before it becomes wrong? It's no longer about Republican vs. Democrat, or Red vs. Blue. It's about justice, faith, and peace. Neither of those three, as adjectives, can be used to describe any aspect of the Bush administration.

Jesus told me to post this.

Today, April 25, 2005, is the 1,090th day since the President declared Mission Accomplished in Iraq.

[Edited 2006-04-26 06:04:16]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
SpinalTap
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:18 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
China would not take the US serious anymore when the US is demanding more human rights. President Hu can always refer to Guantanamo, Abu Graib etc....what is worse than that.The USA being on the same level than China when it comes to human right issues.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news_images/2006-4-16-organharvet.jpg
Are you serious! You think that cutting organs out of still live political prisoners to sell on the international market is on the same level? The Bush administration has at least said that it regrets what has happened at Abu Graib, the Chinese Communist regime pretends nothing bad ever happens in China.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-16/40491.html
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-26/40842.html
"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 75):
Even the fake patriots are deciding that it's not worth the cost in lives and money and it's making the USA's position in the world worse off.

UH60 is in Iraq, fighting the fight. He's been shot at, and he's medevaced wounded troops. Who are you to tell him that it's not worth the cost in lives?

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 81):
How many people have to DIE before it becomes wrong?

I'm glad someone asked this question. Where do we put the price tag on freedom? What is an unacceptable price to pay for the possibility of making a quantum shift in the Middle Eastern whirlpool of dictatorship, tribalism and violence, which will ultimately benefit everyone in the world? 1000 lives? a million? None?

In WWII, the US lost some 400,000 troops in 3 and a half years (a rate 100 times greater than the Iraq war), many of which died not against Japan, who attacked the US, but Germany, which never actually threatened us. Was that not worth it? Other nations on the allied side put together lost 62 million people. Was it not worth it?

Granted, Hitler was a bigger threat than Saddam and Al Qaeda. But the possibilities in Iraq are arguably even more important than those of WWII.

The Middle East is a backwards part of the world. Millions of people blessed by oil reserves, and therefore money and power, but caught up in a 12th century mentality where people who are not of your religion or tribe are worthless at best, and deserve to die at worst.

Bush's strategy, pushed by the "neocons" like Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld is to force a dramatic paradigm shift in the region, one that would not be possible through peaceful means, showing that Muslim Arabs can indeed move into the 21st century with a representative government which would eventually eliminate the desire of any one tribe to want to kill their neighbors. It's idealistic, yes. But considering the benefits that such a development would bring over the next century or two, isn't it worth a try?

The way I see it, the people who are anti-war/anti-Bush in this case are so for one or more of the following reasons:

1) You believe the people of the Middle East are beyond all hope of living in a modern, civilized manner. Bush's strategy has no hope of succeeding because, basically, they are inferior.

2) You are against fighting for anything. All I can say is that people who hide and refuse to fight end up shamed by history (Chamberlain), those who seek out wars of conquest are defeated (Hitler, Napoleon), but those in the middle, who do not intentionally seek a fight, but who are not afraid to rise to a challenge for a worthy cause, those are the leaders whom history may regard as great (Churchill, Roosevelt, Lincoln). Even Gandhi and King would be considered part of the last group - as they refused to submit, retreat or ignore their enemies.

3) You have some pathological hatred for Bush, because of his religion, because he is anti-abortion, because he is not an environmentalist, whatever.

4) You are a moral relativist, who thinks that there is no good or bad. Saddam or Iran have just as much a right to do what they like as anyone else, and we should not interfere. People who believe this are generaly also people who believe that child molestors simply need therapy.

I would suggest you examine your beliefs and figure out if you fall into one or more of these categories.

Personally, I think that this neocon concept of changing the Middle East might work. Say a 50/50 chance over the long term. If it does succeed, which in itself assumes that Bush's successors don't bail out, in a hundred years, Bush might go down in history as a visionary president on par with Jefferson and Lincoln. If it does not succeed, either in spite of his successors' efforts or even if they cut and run, Bush will go down as a complete twat.

In terms of probability, I would calculate them as follows:

Chance of success of strategy: 50%
Cance that Bush's successors will continue to put all necessary effort to support it over the next 10-20 years: 60%

60% x 50% = 30% overall chance of success, in my opinion.

Now, the neocons would have had different numbers before the war. They might think the strategy had a 90% chance of success, and that initial success would ensure that the policy would be followed up, with a, say, 75% likelyhood. That would give a 67% chance of success. Those are bettin' odds, as they say, and that was part of the rationale of the war. But they did not count on the insurgency, and the vehemence of the peaceniks at home. Now the math changes, and the math is closer to mine.

Knowing what I know now (including the lack of WMDs), and figuring a 30% chance of overall strategic success, I would not have invaded Iraq. But we did, and we are there, and I think the largest part of the fight is behind us. The Iraqis are more and more capable of fighting their own fights, and will in the next few years no longer need direct military assistance (until then, Bush and his successor will have to remain 100% commited). After that, it is simply a question whether the democratic government of Iraq will survive, and whether other Middle Eastern nations will look at it and go, "Hmmmm..."

As they say in the military, "If it works, you're a hero, if it doesn't you're a bum." That's what Bush has committed to as his legacy, and we won't really know for years what the answer will be.

But abandoning the strategy now, or when the next president comes to office in 2009, would be like making 90% of all your house payments, and then refusing to pay the last 10% and having your home siezed. We've already paid the heaviest cost in blood and treasure. We have to see it through to the end and pray that it will have been worth it.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
Where do we put the price tag on freedom?

This war had NOTHING to do with our freedom, Charles! NOTHING! What's the price tag we put on a misadventure, started under false pretenses, carried out for reasons other than the one state, not carried out, when started, in a way that would assure victory, and one that cost us much of our hard-earned and hard-fought good name and reputation.

Put a price tag on that one, fella.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
UH60 is in Iraq, fighting the fight. He's been shot at, and he's medevaced wounded troops. Who are you to tell him that it's not worth the cost in lives?

Am I not allowed to have my own opinion? He's certainly not a fake patriot, but there are plenty of them back here, especially the ultimate oxymorons: "pro-war" Christians. He's a soldier in the field and what he writes is exactly what I would expect from someone actually in Iraq.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
1) You believe the people of the Middle East are beyond all hope of living in a modern, civilized manner. Bush's strategy has no hope of succeeding because, basically, they are inferior.

No, we shouldn't be there because it's none of our business. Except we are a glocal empire that insists on interfering in the backwater regions of the world.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
2) You are against fighting for anything.

No, I am a against any war that does not fall under the Christian doctrine of just war. We were never attacked or threatened by Iraq (or Afghanistan OR Iran).

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
3) You have some pathological hatred for Bush, because of his religion, because he is anti-abortion, because he is not an environmentalist, whatever.

No, no, I'm also anti-abortion, and I'm not an pro-government-intervention "environmentalist."

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
4) You are a moral relativist, who thinks that there is no good or bad.

Nope. And yet since 2002 I have become anti-Bush and anti-war.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 84):
This war had NOTHING to do with our freedom, Charles! NOTHING!

You clearly did not read my whole post. It's a lot deeper than that. What I wrote is but a short blurb on the subject, in fact.

Here's the main problem. Most people in this country think in sound bytes. Whether it's WMDs, or oil, or whatever, they like to hear one specific reason in one concise sentence about why something needs to be done. The educational base of most people is so small that they are simply unwilling or unable to really dig into a subject.

Having spoken (typed  Smile) with you for several years now Falcon, I know that you can understand a more sophisticated analysis. Try to understand my prior post. What Bush is trying to do in Iraq is nothing less than magnificent in its scope. The only questions are whether it is feasable, and if it is, whether the U.S. has the political fortitude to see it through.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2811
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 9):
Excuse me, children in the 4th grade speak better English then our very own President.

And children in the 4th grade use better examples in an argument.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 11):
The US won Vietnam?

In some ways yes, if you look at body counts, and the fact that Vietnam is now a somewhat respected member of the world community, despite the structure of the government, and friendly to the west. They could have so easily made N Korea look tame. They didn't, why?

Quoting Redngold (Reply 65):
Show me the money. Or are you talking about pre-1991, such a moot point?

If you cross reference the inspectors reports of WMD remaining after the first war with the documented destruction of WMD. IT DOESN'T MATCH!
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 85):
No, we shouldn't be there because it's none of our business.

It is our business what happens in the Middle East. Go to your corner gas station and look at the prices if you have any doubts.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 85):
No, I am a against any war that does not fall under the Christian doctrine of just war.

Sorry, but I believe in seperation of Church and state. Christian doctrine has no business in deciding on the affairs of state.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 85):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
4) You are a moral relativist, who thinks that there is no good or bad.

Nope. And yet since 2002 I have become anti-Bush and anti-war.

You've contridicted yourself. Earlier, you said it is none of our business. That's (partly) relativism.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 86):
What Bush is trying to do in Iraq is nothing less than magnificent in its scope.

MAGNIFICENT? You have GOT to be kidding, Charles. It isn't magnificent at all. Going to war on a lie isn't "magnificent". Constantly changing the reason for the war, afater the falsehood was validated, isn't "magnificent". Gutting their military and entire political infrastructure, and letting chaos reign isn't "magnificent". Not securing the borders fast enough, and allowing Al Qaeda to slither into the nation isn't "magnificent". Having that country teeter near civil war isn't "magnificent". Destroying our good name, and our reputation isn't "magnificent. Having over 2500 fine young Americans come home in flag-drapped coffins for something that should have never been started isn't "magnificent".

The only thing "magnificent" about this is what a magnificent blunder this was.

And if you're trying to tell me Bush had this grand plan for Iraq, you give him WAY too much credit. The "grand plan" only followed after he realized that he was in deep shit over Iraq. He isn't that smart. There was no grand plan. There still isn't.

You've been pounding that Kool-Aid, haven't you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 89):
And if you're trying to tell me Bush had this grand plan for Iraq, you give him WAY too much credit. The "grand plan" only followed after he realized that he was in deep shit over Iraq. He isn't that smart. There was no grand plan. There still isn't.

This plan was first published in 1998 by Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld & Co, well before Bush became president, and has been talked about for longer than that. The WMD issue was simply a reason (an excuse, if you want to call it that) to be able to impliment it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 89):
MAGNIFICENT? You have GOT to be kidding, Charles. It isn't magnificent at all. Going to war on a lie isn't "magnificent". Constantly changing the reason for the war, afater the falsehood was validated, isn't "magnificent". Gutting their military and entire political infrastructure, and letting chaos reign isn't "magnificent". Not securing the borders fast enough, and allowing Al Qaeda to slither into the nation isn't "magnificent". Having that country teeter near civil war isn't "magnificent". Destroying our good name, and our reputation isn't "magnificent. Having over 2500 fine young Americans come home in flag-drapped coffins for something that should have never been started isn't "magnificent".

You are looking backwards, Falcon. I know the execution has been screwed up on many levels. Practically every war I know of starts with defeats and mistakes from which you learn, adapt and overcome. I'm not talking about the past few years when I say "magnificent"

The plan was (and is) to change the middle east. To enable the countries there to have democratic governments and to get rid of the House of Saud and all the other despotic regimes (via local efforts, not by invasion). To disenfranchise sectarian strife and enable true economic progress, which would make the middle east as much an economic partner as the EU or the Asian Tiger nations. This is all a 100 year campaign. Imagine what the goal is. Idealistic? Yes. Unrealizable? Maybe. But it is a magnificent goal, regardless of how close we have come to achieving it.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 90):
This plan was first published in 1998 by Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld & Co, well before Bush became president, and has been talked about for longer than that. The WMD issue was simply a reason (an excuse, if you want to call it that) to be able to impliment it.

Yes, a bunch of right-wing loonies, who have some kind of imperial designs on other parts of the world, and who feel we have the right to do as we please with the world. And you call people like Wolfwitz, Pearle, Dumsfeld, and Kristol's plan "magnificent"? To the contrary-it's against everything this country has fought and stood for for over 200 years. It's an arrogant, brazen plan to play fast and loose with peace in the world, for some neo-conservative objective.

It's pathetic, is what it is, nothing else. If we haven't learned that by this circus in Iraq, then we never will.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 76):
Removeing a disruptive heckler isn't a violation of the First Amendment.

She wasn't just removed. She was manhandled by someone who put his hand over her mouth, and she's been charged with "willfully intimidating, coercing, threatening and harassing a foreign official."

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 76):
foreign dignitaries who have security concerns.

She didn't get close to him. She spoke her mind. She was cleared into the area with press credentials. The only thing she did was speak her mind and cause embarassment, neither of which is a crime.

Violating the Constitution of the United States is a high crime and misdemeanor, an impeachable offense. Impeachment is the only recourse specified in the Constitution. Impeach him.
Up, up and away!
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 91):



Quoting Redngold (Reply 92):

Please, to both of you, answer as above. We gave you references to reports on WMDs, not by the 'right-wing media' and we get no answer.

Redngold, we agree on more positions than you imagine, I am strongly pro-life, no abortion on demand and no death penalty. But I gave you a reference on Wen Ho Lee that you havent answered. But if now removing a heckler/protester is now an impeachable offense, all previous president should have been impeached.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 92):
She didn't get close to him. She spoke her mind. She was cleared into the area with press credentials. The only thing she did was speak her mind and cause embarassment, neither of which is a crime.

The press section, where she was, are supposed to take pictures and ask pertinent questions if invited to do so. It is not a place for making speeches or grandstanding. While I sympathize entirely with her opinions, which I agree with, BTW, she did break the law (disorderly conduct or something similar), and just as civil disobedience protesters, she should have expected (and probably did) to spend a night in jail and get a fine and a slap on the wrist.

I would have prefered Bush to have told the Chinese President that he just saw an example of freedom of speech in action - a little out of place perhaps, but part of what makes the US a great country. I don't think he should have apologized.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 95):
The press section, where she was, are supposed to take pictures and ask pertinent questions if invited to do so. It is not a place for making speeches or grandstanding.

Considering that she was given a press pass by the Secret Service, which should have been able to look into her past history of making public statements against foreign officials (Jiang Zemin a few years ago in southeast Asia) then I'd say if anything, I think she did exactly what she planned and they helped her along. So what was it - a setup by the Secret Service to catch her, or stupidity on their part? An embarassment for sure, but nothing that deserves the charges that have now been filed against her.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 94):
But I gave you a reference on Wen Ho Lee that you havent answered.

I ignored it because I agree with you and I didn't think that we should bring in additional parties. He is just as much a victim of the system and a scapegoat as anyone, yet his case didn't attract quite as much attention because he didn't do it in public.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 93):

I am not going to reply to your personal insults. If you want to engage in debate you will have to leave out the "are you being willfully dense," "do you know nothing" and "get an education." Right now, you are the one who sounds uneducated and desperate.
Up, up and away!
 
DrDeke
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
Does anyone at home remember there is a war going on? And if so, do you think this is the most effective way of fighting it? What the hell has happened here? Where is the realism and pragmatism? We all have gripes with the President - some more than others - but I think some of you are failing to put this in prospective.

I am all too aware that a war is going on. I don't think that President Bush has the slightest idea what he is doing in Iraq, to put it bluntly. I don't think he has the slightest idea of where to go from here nor do I think he has any kind of realistic plan for a beneficial outcome in Iraq. I also think that he has committed high (and grave) crimes in his handling of the runup to the war and possibly in other matters as well.

I am sorry that you and all our soldiers in Iraq have to deal with all of this, but I am not going to stop criticizing what I see as a corrupt, incompetent, and (to borrow a phrase from the Republicans) morally bankrupt President of the United States just because he has managed to get us into a very serious situation in Iraq or anywhere else.

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
sw733
Posts: 5881
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Solarix (Reply 17):
Tell me... how can you support the folks that are doing something you don't support to begin with? I've never understood that.

And I've never understood why all the pro-Iraq war/pro-Bush people DON'T understand that. I support the troops of all the nations in Iraq 100%, but I don't support the war at all. Since we (and yes, I can say WE, I am a dual citizen of Namibia and USA) are in the war, I support the troops in getting the job done ASAP and getting the heck out of there back to their families. But I hate the fact that we are in Iraq at all.
 
HatTrick
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:18 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 14):
People can call him a dolt or whatever other names they like, the fact is, he's extremely accomplished, and the American people liked him enough to elect him twice, so you have to figure he's doing something right.

While your trying to sell that logic to the left, do you think you could get the Righties to admit that about Bill Clinton?
 
DrDeke
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Impeach President Bush? Get Some Perspective!

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Solarix (Reply 17):
Tell me... how can you support the folks that are doing something you don't support to begin with? I've never understood that.

It's really quite simple; you hope that they don't die or get injured and that they are able to return home quickly. Are you really not capable of understanding that, or did you just throw your statement out solely to perpetuate a tired right-wing canard?



Quoting DL021 (Reply 74):
Some things are black or white. If you are not with the United States in this war on terror (although "with" could mean simply not working against us militarily, economically or politically) then you are definitely against us. Why is that complicated or evil?

So is France "against us" and "evil" then, for thinking the Iraq invasion was a bad idea and not wanting to help with it?

Maybe some things are black and white, but this is not one of them.

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.

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