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LawrenceMck
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Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:24 am

I was in a Biology revision class today after school and my teacher was going on about global warming. Then my Chemistry teacher came in and totally dismissed the idea of Global Warming, he believes it is a natural fluctuation of temperatures. He does not believe that increased emmissions of Carbon Dioxide and other gases given off from the burning of fossil fuels has anything to do with the rising temperatures.
It was quite funny to see these two teachers argueing their views.

So what do you think? Do you think Global Warming is linked to the increased combustion of fossil fuels or is it just merely a natural fluctuation in temperatures?

Lawrence  

[Edited 2006-05-24 18:45:47]
Love It To Live It
 
BradWray
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:26 am

I feel that it will happen but years and years on!

I think most people say it is realy bad now to persuade you to make a change early!

Thanks, Bradley!
Hamilton: English for 'Alonso's bitch' :D
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:38 am

The mounting evidence has long passed the point of Global Warming being a matter of opinion.

The only question open is how far it will reach.

Beyond doubt is that a) it is already happening and b) it is at least largely caused by human interference.
 
cosec59
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Beyond doubt is that a) it is already happening and b) it is at least largely caused by human interference.

So a highly qualified science teacher is wrong is he?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 3):
So a highly qualified science teacher is wrong is he?

Or the other, highly qualified teacher is wrong.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:48 am

That's where the argument begins. I've seen many explanations for the 1 degree temperature rise, which has occurred over a 50 year period - and - although the greehouse gas hypothesis has become a virtual article of faith,there are a number of contradicting opinions:for example-global oscillation; the increasing number and intensity of geo-thermal "hot spots", and the very existence of heat-trapping large cities.

Unfortunately,some of the opposing sides in the matter have turned it into a political controversy as well.

In my humble opinion, the debate is a bit like the never-ending sentences we amuse ourselves with on this
gene
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:03 am

Ohhh, gooooodie, another global warming thread!!!

In the past six months (and these are only the thread with GLOBAL WARMING in the thread title):
Al Gore Delivers Global Warming Warning At Cannes (by SATX May 20 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1227841
Global Warming Differences Resolved? (by SATX May 2 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1205301
Is Global Warming Truly Upon Us...... (by Alberchico Mar 27 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1161632
George W Bush On Global Warming (by Lutenist Feb 24 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1127470
RE: Do Global Warming Mechanisms Need Re-Examination? (by Airlinerfreak Jan 28 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1091956
RE: Global Warming Why Extreme Warm Winter? (by FlyMIA Jan 12 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1067482
RE: Efforts To Reduce Global Warming: Successful? (by WhiteHatter Dec 26 2005 in Non Aviation)#ID1046866

Add these threads where Global Warming is brow beat upon:
RE: Have We Talked About Kyoto Recently? (by Slider Dec 28 2005 in Non Aviation)#ID1049443
Where's Winter Gone? (by Braybuddy Jan 18 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1075912
Scientist: Climate Change Already Irreversible (by Joni Jan 16 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1072834
RE: For Those, Who Don`t Believe In Climate Change... (by Boeing Nut Jan 30 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1094312
RE: What Has Happened To Canadian Winters? (by Halls120 Feb 3 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1100905
RE: Bigger Amount Of Snow In Your Area This Winter (by TACAA320 Mar 19 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1153439
RE: I Cant Believe We Have Snow In April (by Bill142 Apr 8 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1175766
RE: Unusual Increase Of Tornados In The US? (by NeilYYZ Apr 9 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1176967
RE: New US Gov Report: Clear Evidence Of Human Impacts (by Tbar220 May 5 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1209427



Hell, the Global Warming  redflag  here only Rivals' the Bush Bash threads for consistency and numbers . . . . .

 sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NWA742
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
The mounting evidence has long passed the point of Global Warming being a matter of opinion.

No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.





-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 3):
So a highly qualified science teacher is wrong is he?

Is he a highly qualified climatologist? I have my doubts about that. Teachers rarely have the time to be fully up-to-date in any field of research, especially one that's different from their main qualification and even more one that's as complex as climatology.

Among climatologists the consensus is clear, and it is backed by a rapidly increasing mass of evidence.

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 5):
the greehouse gas hypothesis has become a virtual article of faith

That would be the case if there was no corroborating evidence, but the evidence is strongly pointing towards Global Warming being a physical reality.

The claims you quoted, on the other hand, have no factual backing apart from certain political and commercial interests. They don't stand up to factual analysis and pretty much their last remaining niche is the US domestic political arena (the same one denying the reality of evolution but still using DNA evidence in the judicial system).
 
TedTAce
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:13 am

Given some people's predispisotion towards supporting religion and that the point of view that if you can't DISPROVE it it MUST be true; it's surprising that those same people don't see the signs of disappearing glaciers as a sign of the comming apocalypse.
This space intentionally left blank
 
David L
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Hell, the Global Warming here only Rivals' the Bush Bash threads for consistency and numbers . . . . .

 checkmark 

... and bashing.  Smile
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.

It hasn't managed to penetrate the US american political debate - that much is true. But as for that, see above...!  mischievous 

You'd probably be surprised how far the US political debate is removed (and fallen behind by years) from both the scientific state of the art and from the international political consensus.

Only in the US debate you get presented a "virtual equality" of the actual scientific consensus and the snake-oil-and-UFOs faction which doesn't bother with the facts (but happens to have strong political and commercial backing instead). Pretty much like the presented equality of evolution and creation as scientific theories, for which every european journalist would get laughed out of the studio.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:26 am

Do i believe the earth is getting warmer: yup

Do i believe its ALL humankinds fault: nope

Do I believe all the end of the world wackos: nope

Do I believe we can survive and so can the world: yup

Do I believe mankind is partly to blame: yup

That about sums it up.

The point is, we can't say its all our fault, and in fact we are probably just slightly accelerating a natural process if anything. The earth has been much warmer (~60*C Equatorial average) as recently as 1 million year ago (according to geological records). And the earth has been (by trend) warming since the last ice age fairly steadily. So to say its all mankind's fault is pushing it more than a little. Is that to say we should just keep burning fossil fuels like mad? No way, we DO need to cut emissions, even if it is just to buy time.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 12):
And the earth has been (by trend) warming since the last ice age fairly steadily.

Not to my knowledge. Climate rebounded from the last ice age and remained remarkably steady for many thousand years. The recent increase is an anomaly, even within our current warm period.
 
WellHung
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.

The only people still debating it are people who claim the Earth is 5000 years old while using data from millions of years ago to try to justify their position, people who have highly decorated yes-men who tell them what they want to hear while jettisoning those who don't, those who dismiss actual scientific studies and data, people who are ignorant of Earth's processes and many on their collective payrolls... oh lest I forget - and those who get their jollies from arguing on the Internet.

[Edited 2006-05-24 19:44:35]
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 3:50 am

I can't believe this is even an issue to argue. The evidence is overwhelming that it IS happening, and that fossil fuels are the culprit. And even if that evidence isn't clear and one argues that it's not manmade, I have to ask this:

When you see a smoke going up into the air from a smokestack or fumes from a car, you can't possibly believe that a good thing?

Let's get over arguing about it and do something about it.

I refer everyone to an outstanding issue of National Geographic some time last year that did a terrific job -- using scientific data and on-the-scene reporting -- explaining that global warming is real.

Either that or ask the Inuit on the Arctic Ocean or the folks in Kiribati or those low-lying islands. They know it's real.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Not to my knowledge. Climate rebounded from the last ice age and remained remarkably steady for many thousand years. The recent increase is an anomaly, even within our current warm period.

Klaus, I appreciate your dedication,but you might want to check out the "little ice ages" and subsequent rebounds in a history book, rather than in a political text. You might also want to check out recent information (from the same climatologists who say the sky is falling) which claims China is undergoing a period of cooling because all the greehouse gases it produces are keeping the sun's radiation away.

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
gene
 
cosec59
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 6:33 am

Well I wish global warming would find it's way here. We have not seen the sun for over 2 weeks.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 7:36 am

Evidently, the global warming / sky is falling movement has become a lucrative one. I refer to "emissions trading" , which is handled a bit like commodity futures:

http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/news/.../newsScroller2005021601161337.html

I've seen other references- for example in " New Scientist" (which, one might argue should be titled "Fashionable Scientist").

So now there is a "belief system", with a global treasury to back it up, and supporters to finance or profit by the enforcement of the belief system.

Is this science-or a new religion ?
gene
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 16):
Klaus, I appreciate your dedication,but you might want to check out the "little ice ages" and subsequent rebounds in a history book, rather than in a political text.

The current accelerated temperature rise is significantly different from anything else during this warm period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2...00_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 16):
You might also want to check out recent information (from the same climatologists who say the sky is falling) which claims China is undergoing a period of cooling because all the greehouse gases it produces are keeping the sun's radiation away.

Wrong.

The temporary cooling effect you're referring to is caused by aerosoles, soot and dust which are produced along with the actual greenhouse gases during dirty combustion.

It merely offsets the warming for a while, but does not prevent the greenhouse effect.

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 18):
So now there is a "belief system", with a global treasury to back it up, and supporters to finance or profit by the enforcement of the belief system.

It's actually the opposite. What's traded are penalty payments for the damage that's being done.

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 18):
Is this science-or a new religion ?

Science. The evidence is there and it is verifiable. The opposing position has so far been unable to corroborate their attempts at obfuscation with verifiable evidence.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 16):

Klaus, I appreciate your dedication,but you might want to check out the "little ice ages" and subsequent rebounds in a history book, rather than in a political text. You might also want to check out recent information (from the same climatologists who say the sky is falling) which claims China is undergoing a period of cooling because all the greehouse gases it produces are keeping the sun's radiation away.

I agree, ice ages come and ice ages go, it clearly gets warmer and colder at different points in the earth's history, how cold or how hot it gets, I have no idea, but if anyone was there a few ice ages ago they could maybe be helpful in this discussion.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
JetBlueAUS
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:14 pm

I think it is the earth going through its weather patterns. Some years Hurricanes have been stronger, others have not. Its all just a cycle we're going through. While the fossil fuels we are burning might effect the earth, I do not think that it is causing a 'global warming.'
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
beefstew25
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 1:41 pm

Wait a second. I thought 30 years ago we were going to spray paint glaciers because we were going to turn into a giant ice cube.....
MLB
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 2:02 pm

I believe in global warming--except the warming is caused by things beyond our control, namely that thermonuclear fireball about 93 million miles away called the Sun.

Anyone who's studied the sunspot cycle knows that at different points in the cycle, the Earth's climate can be warmer or cooler because of level of particles from the Sun interacting with our atmosphere. Also, a major volcanic eruption with a lot of ash output can seriously affect the atmosphere--note the changes in the weather after Mount St. Helens erupted in 1980 and Mt. Pinatubo erupted in 1991. Gawd help us all if we have an eruption on the scale of Mt. Tambora on Sumbawa island in the Indonesian Archipelago in 1815--that spewed out 15 cubic miles of volcanic ash and resulted in very cold winters and cool summers in much of the world for a few years afterward.
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 8:40 pm

The human-caused greenhouse effect by far exceeds the impact of natural volcanic emissions. And much of the aerosoles and dust ejected by volcanoes actually have a cooling effect.

Sun activity is another point; It has not increased in any way that could explain the rapid warming that is measurable.

The warming trend is, however, quite significantly correlated with the ongoing increase of greenhouse gases since the industrial revolution. The mechanism is understood and the CO2 concentration is undoubtedly increasing quite rapidly.

Open to further research at this point is primarily how much exactly the global climate will change and what the best countermeasures are.

Those disproved ideas are primarily propagated by people who know better but choose to lie to the public instead for selfish reasons: Selected industry representatives and the politicians they retain.
 
MigFan
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 3):
So a highly qualified science teacher is wrong is he?

Is he telling you the whole story? There are two sides to every story. Do your own research, and not appeal to his intellectual authority as a teacher.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.

Glaciers are just melting for the hell of it???

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
that if you can't DISPROVE it it MUST be true

BAD reasoning... If you can't disprove it, you are not looking hard enough.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
The current accelerated temperature rise is significantly different from anything else during this warm period.

Get a better source, wikipedia is far from reliable.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
pelican
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 9:00 pm

I love those threads.
My favorite comments are those which start with "I believe" or "I think"...
Maybe I should start another one about evolution.

@Klaus - too much time at hand? It's futile to argue about global warming here. Well, I guess you know that.

pelican
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 9:02 pm

Klaus, your statements are very "positive",and you clearly believe in the doctrine you preach; but it is still at the level of "unverified hypothesis"-
meaning it is open to question,and therefore, open to doubt.

Many times in human history, ideas have been presented in such compelling ways they have become "the law of the land" ; but the passage of time, and the accumulation of more knowledge has proven them untrue.
gene
 
oli80
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 12):
in fact we are probably just slightly accelerating a natural process if anything

If you had left out the 'if anything' bit at the end, you would have been spot on!

In response to the thread starter, both teachers are correct.

Quoting LawrenceMck (Thread starter):
he believes it is a natural fluctuation of temperatures

This is totally correct. There is a natural fluctuation of temperatures and it has been going on since long before the first humans were around.

And this following bit I have mentioned many times before in some the threads that ANCFlyer has highlighted:

The point most scientist are trying to make is our impact on the RATE of change. If the temperature changes very quickly, many plants will not adapt quick enough. Consequently, we will run out of food. Plain and simple!

And lastly, off topic:

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 3):
So a highly qualified science teacher is wrong is he?

We don't know anything about this teacher. Is he highly qualified? I have some serious doubts about the quality of teaching in schools in the UK. I know for a fact that some PGCE students only pass because they already have a job lined up for when they finish. Otherwise they would definitely fail!
 
Klaus
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 25):
Get a better source, wikipedia is far from reliable.

That information is consistent with (and based on) scientifically verified observations.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
Klaus - too much time at hand? It's futile to argue about global warming here. Well, I guess you know that.

Stemming the tide of misinformation is always worthwile, no matter the odds! Big grin

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 27):
but it is still at the level of "unverified hypothesis"-
meaning it is open to question,and therefore, open to doubt.

Wrong. It is thoroughly verified by now. Pretty much all the observations and analyses made point into the same direction. You might have been correct thirty years ago, but not today.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 10:33 pm

I think so yes.

I think also that some people miss the point. A lot of people run to whether humans and industrialisation. While I believe so, there are some who don't. Which is fine. But who the hell cares.

I think, without prior research, that the world has been shown to be warming. Whether we are at fault or not, we do have the means to do something about it. God forbid we use less fossil fules though (!) or actually conserve some energy. Shock horror.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 10:41 pm

Here are some facts:

We have only recorded global temps for a little more than 100 years using scientific methods, but that data shows a slow increase in global temps

Since the American Revolution sea levels have risen 18 inches

10,000 years ago we were in an ice age

Before that last ice age, sea levels have been considerably higher than they are now.

This planet has seen many cycles of ice ages and warming cycles

The sun's radiation fluctuates

The average temperature on Mars has increase since we started tracking it

Green house gasses have always been emitted into the atmosphere in huge amounts since the planet formed

A single volcanic eruption has the potential to exceed all man made emissions in history


From this you can draw a set of reasonable conclusions:

1) The Earth is warming
2) This warming has been going on since before fossil fuels were discovered
3) There is no direct evidence man has a measurable effect on warming
4) There is no direct evidence man does not have a measurable effect
5) This is not be limited to Earth
6) There is no direct evidence that this is not a normal cycle
7) There is direct evidence that this is a normal cycle
8) There is circumstantial evidence that man has a measurable effect

In my opinion, we are not in the position to know for certain what is really going on at this time. And whatever is going on, it is a lot more complicated than tailpipe emissions.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Wrong. It is thoroughly verified by now.

Here is someone who dares to disagree with prevailing Global Warming Dogma.
He is a climatologist-which I dare say Klaus and I are not - and, in case anyone is wondering, the University he teaches at has a fairly liberal political outlook.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=052406F
gene
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 11:06 pm

The reason why I mentioned Mount St. Helens was because that eruption changed the weather of the western USA quite a bit after the eruption. Before the eruption, California suffered from a couple of years of serious drought; after this eruption, California had a couple of years of 170 to 250 percent normal rains, which filled up every reservoir in sight and caused much flooding problems all over the state.

We do know that the Mount Tambora eruption had HUGE cooling effects on the Earth's weather, as after that eruption that spewed out around 100 cubic kilometers of volcanic ash it caused massively cold winters all over the world; the summer of 1816 was very cold when there were blizzards in upper New York state in the middle of summer!  Wow!
 
deltadc9
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Thu May 25, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 33):
The reason why I mentioned Mount St. Helens was because that eruption changed the weather of the western USA quite a bit after the eruption.

It was responsible for more beautiful sunsets for years all over the planet, which means that stuff remained in the atmosphere a long long time.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
oli80
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 32):
Here is someone who dares to disagree with prevailing Global Warming Dogma.
He is a climatologist-which I dare say Klaus and I are not - and, in case anyone is wondering, the University he teaches at has a fairly liberal political outlook.

Bingo! A little searching and look what I find:

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=15

"director Robert Balling and Craig Idso conducted an ExxonMobil-funded study in 2002, entitled "The 2000 United States Historical Climate Network Update: What Changed?"
Source: ASU web site 5/03
"

"Arizona State University Office of Climatology has received $49,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998."

Liberal huh? I'd say his research has a fairly one-sided goal...  Wink

There are two types of scientists out there, those that really care, and those that see $$$.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 35):
Liberal huh? I'd say his research has a fairly one-sided goal...

I think the posters that are searching for evidence to support their position are missing half the truth.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
MigFan
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
That information is consistent with (and based on) scientifically verified observations.

I am just trying to say that you are not adding any weight to your arguement by quoting wikipedia, and onlt wikipedia...

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
satx
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.

What people?

Consensus grows on climate change

Oh, you must mean environmental impact experts like Esso/Exxon?

Give me a break. Who in their right mind would take Exxon's view of the climate change over those who have nothing to gain financially from promoting a cleaner planet?
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mrmeangenes
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 1:17 am

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=091605E

Not everybody follows the dogmas of the New Church of Gaia.

Incidentally,those who complain that Exxon funded climate research show no such concern when it if funded by Soros, or by China.
gene
 
Falcon84
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RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
The mounting evidence has long passed the point of Global Warming being a matter of opinion.

No, it hasn't. That's why people are still debating it.

The debate goes on not on a scientific basis, but on the basis of political dogma and $$$. That's why certain quarters debate it.

And feeling the heat and humidity here today, I subscribe to it.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
mrmeangenes
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:56 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 1:25 am

Oh,dear ! Those dreadful people at the Wall Street Journal have an opinion on the matter,too. (Why won't they just bow to the superior knowledge of Europe on these matters ?)

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110008416
gene
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 41):

I rest my case.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 32):
Here is someone who dares to disagree with prevailing Global Warming Dogma.

Robert C. Balling - SourceWatch:

Quote:
Balling has acknowledged that he had received $408,000 in research funding from the fossil fuel industry over the last decade (of which his University takes 50% for overhead). Contributors include ExxonMobil, the British Coal Corporation, Cyprus Minerals and OPEC.

The scientific community will start to be impressed when dissenters stop taking money from interest groups making money on continued waste and pollution. No luck so far, it appears.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 37):
I am just trying to say that you are not adding any weight to your arguement by quoting wikipedia, and onlt wikipedia...

You may not like it, but in most cases information in Wikipedia is quite correct and consistent, especially when it's about easily verifiable measurement data.
 
LawrenceMck
Topic Author
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:45 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 3:34 am

Wasn't expecting many replies to this thread to be honest, some really awesome replies here, very interesting, thanks.

Lawrence  Smile
Love It To Live It
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 38):
What people?

Well, not everybody buys into the theory of global warming. It is still a theory.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
The debate goes on not on a scientific basis

Falcon, even you know better than that:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
We have only recorded global temps for a little more than 100 years using scientific methods, but that data shows a slow increase in global temps

Since the American Revolution sea levels have risen 18 inches

10,000 years ago we were in an ice age

Before that last ice age, sea levels have been considerably higher than they are now.

This planet has seen many cycles of ice ages and warming cycles

The sun's radiation fluctuates

The average temperature on Mars has increase since we started tracking it

Green house gasses have always been emitted into the atmosphere in huge amounts since the planet formed

A single volcanic eruption has the potential to exceed all man made emissions in history


From this you can draw a set of reasonable conclusions:

1) The Earth is warming
2) This warming has been going on since before fossil fuels were discovered
3) There is no direct evidence man has a measurable effect on warming
4) There is no direct evidence man does not have a measurable effect
5) This is not be limited to Earth
6) There is no direct evidence that this is not a normal cycle
7) There is direct evidence that this is a normal cycle
8) There is circumstantial evidence that man has a measurable effect



Quote:
In my opinion, we are not in the position to know for certain what is really going on at this time. And whatever is going on, it is a lot more complicated than tailpipe emissions.

I agree - I don't think we are in any position to know for certain in either direction. That is why it's a theory. Many people blindly buy into it, and many people blindly refuse to believe the possibilty of it. That's a bigger problem, IMO.




-NWA742

[Edited 2006-05-26 03:37:38]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 10:45 am

If the environmentalists are correct, then the earth is heading toward a much worse future and acting now is of the utmost importance. If the Exxon sympathizers are correct, we're simply protecting something that doesn't need any protecting. So what?

Why are Americans so pissed about the idea of protecting something that they don't think needs protecting? Why on earth does it annoy Americans so much to be a little extra careful? Oh that's right, we'd lose a bit of our discretionary income by spending it on environmental fees. Oh, the horrors!
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):
Falcon, even you know better than that:

 rotfl 

Sorry about that Falcon, I didn't notice the "even" in there until now.

Please excuse that mistake, I didn't mean it that way.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
oli80
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 41):
Oh,dear ! Those dreadful people at the Wall Street Journal have an opinion on the matter,too. (Why won't they just bow to the superior knowledge of Europe on these matters ?)

Any web pages you post I will be able to find one that discredits it. So you may as well stop wasting both our time.  Wink (And for your information, try typing 'Pentagon' and 'Global Warming' into Google, and you'll see it's not just us!)

I have a question for you:

As we continue to use our cars etc. and all these gasses are being pumped into the atmosphere, while at the same time, we are cutting down rainforests at an incredible rate, what do you think the outcome will be?

Even if you are not convinced that 'Global Warming' is to blame (instead, a natural cycle) for melting ice sheets, flooding, famine etc., surely you recognise that many people will perish and that something needs to be done?!
 
seanp11
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:16 am

RE: Do You Believe In Global Warming?

Fri May 26, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
We have only recorded global temps for a little more than 100 years using scientific methods, but that data shows a slow increase in global temps

But we have temperature data going back millions of years from Oxygen 18 data.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
Before that last ice age, sea levels have been considerably higher than they are now.

Only during the last interglacial. That was due to variations of the earth's orbit, not enviromental means. If milankovitch cycles were to bring us to that temperature, they would have already. Not all of the other interglacials in the pliestocene were as hot as even this one.

And looking further back than a million years or so involves plate tectonics in the variations, so would be moot to the conversation.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
This planet has seen many cycles of ice ages and warming cycles

Ok, and we haven't had humans disrupting the carbon cycle over this time. And over all these cycles, we have seen sea levels rise to the point to where most of the north american continent has been covered in shallow seas. I'm sure you don't want that now.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
Green house gasses have always been emitted into the atmosphere in huge amounts since the planet formed

A single volcanic eruption has the potential to exceed all man made emissions in history

These are all part of the natural carbon cycle. The CO2 that is emitted by volcanoes was removed from the atmosphere at one point by being dissolved into water. Burning fossil fuels is not part of the natural carbon cycle. We are tapping into one of the carbon reservoirs that is not naturally tapped.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
1) The Earth is warming
2) This warming has been going on since before fossil fuels were discovered
3) There is no direct evidence man has a measurable effect on warming
4) There is no direct evidence man does not have a measurable effect
5) This is not be limited to Earth
6) There is no direct evidence that this is not a normal cycle
7) There is direct evidence that this is a normal cycle
8) There is circumstantial evidence that man has a measurable effect

All I can say about that is that its a good thing you aren't a scientist. You're linking completely different systems together, making poor assumptions and everything. CO2 concentrations have doubled since the onset of the industrial revolution. It is also a greenhouse gas that is harder to get out of the atmosphere than the others (mainly H2O). The cycles you speak of for examples happen on a completely different timescale, and if they were the case, we would be cooling, if anything.

Most of the *relevant* scientific community is in agreement about global warming. You run into a few geologists or climatologists with ties to companies like Exxon Mobil that are paid to deny global warming, but most of the independent scientists still agree. If we do nothing, we lose if they're right. If we do something, even if there actually is no global warming, we would still be doing some good for the planet by taking action. I hope you all can see why this is important.

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