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skyman
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 5:10 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 149):
why is it then nationalistic to be against illegal immigration?

Read all replies and you will know what I mean. I'm not for illegal immigration. It's just the way how things are handled and what words are used.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 149):
What definition are you having problems with?

So please give me one that fits.
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting Skyman (Reply 150):
So please give me one that fits.

I am not the who is having problems with the definitions, I am asking you what you see as not fitting the describtion.

Quoting Skyman (Reply 150):

Read all replies and you will know what I mean. I'm not for illegal immigration. It's just the way how things are handled and what words are used.

I am not talking about you, I am actually trying to explain ANCflyer's position, he is against illegal immigration, and you call it nationalistic crap? How can you see any nationalistic crap, his reasoning is most balanced and well argumented, he hates criminals, especially those who brag about their crimes here on the internet. At least that is how I see it...

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting Skyman (Reply 150):
So please give me one that fits.

characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state"; a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities.


As far as the US State Department is concerned:
Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) (International)
Abu Sayyaf Group (Philippines)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Palestine)
Ansar al-Islam (Iraq, Kurdistan)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA) (Algeria)
Asbat al-Ansar
Aum Shinrikyo (Japan)
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) (Spain, France)
Communist Party of the Philippines/New People's Army (CPP/NPA) (Philippines)
Continuity Irish Republican Army (Northern Ireland)
Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Translates: Islamic Group) (Egypt)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement) (Palestine)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM) (Kashmir)
Hizballah (Translates: Party of God) (Lebanon)
Islamic Jihad Group
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) (Uzbekistan)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Translates: Army of Mohammed) (Kashmir)
Jemaah Islamiya organization (JI) (South East Asia)
al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) (Egypt)
Kahane Chai (Kach) (Israel)
Kongra-Gel (KGK, formerly Kurdistan Workers' Party, PKK, KADEK) (Kurdistan)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous) (Kashmir)
Lashkar i Jhangvi (Pakistan)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) (Sri Lanka)
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) (Libya)
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group (GICM) (Morocco)
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK) (Iran)
National Liberation Army (ELN) (Colombia)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) (Palestine)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) (Palestine)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) (Palestine)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC) (Palestine)
al-Qa’ida (Global)
Real IRA (Northern Ireland)
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) (Colombia)
Revolutionary Nuclei (formerly ELA) (Greece)
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (Greece)
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) (Turkey)
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) (Algeria)
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso, SL) (Peru)
Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR) (al-Qaida in Iraq) (formerly Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad, JTJ, al-Zarqawi Network) (Iraq)
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC) (Colombia)



And so says the UK:

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) (International)
Abu Sayyaf Group (Philippines)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Palestine)
Ansar al-Islam (Iraq, Kurdistan)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA) (Algeria)
Asbat al-Ansar
Aum Shinrikyo (Japan)
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) (Spain, France)
Communist Party of the Philippines/New People's Army (CPP/NPA) (Philippines)
Continuity Irish Republican Army (Northern Ireland)
Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Translates: Islamic Group) (Egypt)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement) (Palestine)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM) (Kashmir)
Hizballah (Translates: Party of God) (Lebanon)
Islamic Jihad Group
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) (Uzbekistan)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Translates: Army of Mohammed) (Kashmir)
Jemaah Islamiya organization (JI) (South East Asia)
al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) (Egypt)
Kahane Chai (Kach) (Israel)
Kongra-Gel (KGK, formerly Kurdistan Workers' Party, PKK, KADEK) (Kurdistan)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous) (Kashmir)
Lashkar i Jhangvi (Pakistan)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) (Sri Lanka)
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) (Libya)
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group (GICM) (Morocco)
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK) (Iran)
National Liberation Army (ELN) (Colombia)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) (Palestine)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) (Palestine)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) (Palestine)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC) (Palestine)
al-Qa’ida (Global)
Real IRA (Northern Ireland)
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) (Colombia)
Revolutionary Nuclei (formerly ELA) (Greece)
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (Greece)
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) (Turkey)
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) (Algeria)
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso, SL) (Peru)
Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR) (al-Qaida in Iraq) (formerly Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad, JTJ, al-Zarqawi Network) (Iraq)
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC) (Colombia)


*Source: Wikipedia.org
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
skyman
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 5:10 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 151):
I am not talking about you,

I know you don't mean me. There where replies which weren't ok. I can also understand ANC about the illegal immigration and AR385 saying he would help them. That is not ok because it is illegal. But we are getting caried away from the main point in this thread.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 151):
am not the who is having problems with the definitions

If your nothaving problems please give me one. Thanks
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Skyman (Reply 153):
But we are getting caried away from the main point in this thread.

This thread took a left turn a long time ago.

Here's an example of a terrorist organization Skyman - one quite active in Germany for a long time - the Baider-Meinhof Gang. Diffused and pretty much gutted at the end of the Cold War, but they left their mark all over Germany.

You're in Karlsruhe, and almost not old enough to remember them - no offense intended please - but perhaps some of your elders could fill you in.


**Welcome to Airliners.Net . . . . enjoy the ride!
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
skyman
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 5:10 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:56 pm

Don't worry I know history and the Bader Meinhof gang and the RAF (not Royal Air Force). But the German police managed to get eventhough it was a long and hard fight.The big problem with terrorist for an army is that they aren't visable clearly and always ambush and there is no real solution to the problem. As we see then everything urns from sad to worse.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 7:57 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 147):
Or you have gone to bed already and you just post when your prostate gives you a break, old man.

 rotfl 

What's next you sad, immature, little pissant? If we continue to laugh at your ridiculous posts are you going to hold your breath 'til you turn blue? Run along now little boy. I think I hear your mommy calling.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 147):
My mexican citizenship within the borders of Mexico



Quoting AR385 (Reply 147):
Yes, I assist anybody who wants to enter my country,

So, you use your apparent dual citizenship to violate the law . . . .isn't that special.

You wouldn't make a pimple on a decent American's ass . . .

 talktothehand  . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 114):
What makes you think you 'deserve' them? Truly pathetic.

I deserve them because I am a loyal American, who can critisize his government, but not call his government, or his people, or his country terrorists, as Cairo has. I deserve it becasue I don't belittle those who serve with honor in our armed forces, while at the same time I can critisize the political decision to go to war.

I'm not an American citizen who castigates his country for every little thng, and blames it, as you and Cairo seem to do, for all the woes in the world, and seems to hate the very nation that they hold citizenship in.

Dissent is fine; it's a basic and cherished right we have in this nation, that is a positive, not a negative, for this nation. But when the dissent turns into rants of how bad this nation is, and how bad it's people are, then you've crossed a line from dissent to somethng a little more seditious in nature. That's what you and Cairo do, I believe. Neither of you show any loyalty to the nation-NOT the administration currently in power-but basic loyalty and love for the nation that you call your own. You seem to hate everything about it.

That isn't honest dissent. It's crossed a line into a realm of something worse.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 148):
you missed the sarcasm flowing from that whole paragraph

not really. I however needed to point out that the stunt onto the WTC in NY in most ways was unique, beside being manslaughter and mass-murder. And that I hope it WILL REMAIN a unique thing in the WORLD !

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 154):
the Baider-Meinhof Gang

A) the correct name was BAADER-MEINHOF
B) the group re-named later into Rote Armee Fraktion / Red Army Fraction
C) they were active not only in Germany but also in the "neighbourhood"
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 110):
Furthermore, care to explain why the Hezbollah had Mr Hariri killed in Beruit?

WHAT?
Who said the Hezbollah killed Hariri? Seriously I am interested in your sources. There is a theory that says that Hezbollah are behind it but I havent seen any backing of it, and havent seen the Hezbollah mentionned anywhere in the Mehlis Report about the killing. We are awaiting the conclusions of the UN prosecutor Brammetz, who is pursuing the investingation that Mehlis had started.
rolf
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 160):
Who said the Hezbollah killed Hariri?

Yeah, I remember my first beer.

The CV is Syria was involved. If Syria was involved, there's little doubt who carried it out for Syria.

Keep drinking, dude.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 159):
not really. I however needed to point out that the stunt onto the WTC in NY in most ways was unique, beside being manslaughter and mass-murder. And that I hope it WILL REMAIN a unique thing in the WORLD !

I don't know as I'd call that a "stunt". Poor word choice.

I'd suggest calling it "thugs stealing airplanes and then flying two planeloads of screaming passengers into two buildings full of ordinary people trying to make a living, feed the kids, etc etc in the pursuit of objectives that cannot be understood by a sane person."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 161):
Yeah, I remember my first beer. The CV is Syria was involved. If Syria was involved, there's little doubt who carried it out for Syria.

Syria allows the transfer of "support" from Iran to Hizb'ullah via Damascus in the framework of their alliance with Iran, but if people in the higher echelons in Damascus have something un-kosher in mind, they will use other "channels". And for sure not Hizb'ullah.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 162):
call that a "stunt"

But Marwan al-Shehhi broke a speed record for low flying civil airplanes when being on the approach to the 2nd tower. And to "arrive" just a "third below the top" was somewhat special, to put it mildly.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 162):
"thugs stealing airplanes

you might call it "some freaky somewhat mad young intellectuals taking command of two airplanes and stearing them into the building-complex for them symbolizing US-supremacy and US-support for Israel"
> ok, does not make it better really, but nevertheless a bit of a difference
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 163):
But Marwan al-Shehhi broke a speed record for low flying civil airplanes when being on the approach to the 2nd tower. And to "arrive" just a "third below the top" was somewhat special, to put it mildly.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 162):
"thugs stealing airplanes

you might call it "some freaky somewhat mad young intellectuals taking command of two airplanes and stearing them into the building-complex for them symbolizing US-supremacy and US-support for Israel"
> ok, does not make it better really, but nevertheless a bit of a difference

The killing was the point of the exercise, not setting aviation speed records. Calling it a "stunt" is disingenuous and implies a certain amount of admiration. For heaven's sake, look what a shit storm it started-that couldn't have been a good thing for the people of the middle east.
My ex worked 100 yards from the site and only by luck did she have the flu and decide that it was a morning to stay home in Long Island. She could well have been a victim herself.

Kinda like saying "Tim McVeigh, helluva pyrotechnics expert there, mighty big bang, where's the cotton candy and my bleacher seat!"
It trivializes the innocents who lost their lives.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 134):
Oooh! An ad-hominem! How deliciously juvenile! Read the above for the reasons why Bush is responsible for the loss of freedom in this country. If you need it in smaller words, grab a thesaurus.

What freedoms have you lost ? (small words please)

The tightening of security in this country is directly the effect of terror organizations. Any measures taken to monitor the activities of the people living here would not happen if we did not have a threat.

Their is no middle ground on this issue. You either believe that the terrorist are right and just in their struggle against us. Or you believe that they are just militant extremist bent on killing us for religious reasons. For me I choose to believe that we are just and right in our policies. Of course mistakes are made and short sighted reactionary policies have been used in error. But the overall vision of democracy and stabile economies is one that offers hope to most people.

Our enemy ( Muslim extremists) are completely opposed to our freedom of religion and freedom of expression. No matter what you think of the USA ,thier is no argument that we are free to worship and express pretty much as you feel.
The Muslim extremeist are attmepting to export their ideas just like we are. Again you can not have it both ways , you are either on one side or the other... clarity is in short suplly these days.

God bless the Marines !
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 164):
that couldn't have been a good thing for the people of the middle east.

-
it was an absolute and total disaster, both for people of the Arab World, and for people in civil aviation . It also ruined a number of airlines which without it would have had a serious chance to survive.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Tue May 30, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 165):
tightening of security in this country is directly the effect of terror organizations. Any measures taken to monitor the activities of the people living here would not happen if we did not have a threat.

What you call tightening of security had, as a side result, a loss of personal freedom, and on that side unfortunately is a success of the terrorists. Fact is that airlines in the USA, after 11Sep01, have become as secretive, for instance on the phone, as Aeroflot in the pre-Gorbatshov USSR. US civil aviation needed 5 years to become a bit more normal again. To reduce freedom in the west, and in freeer countries in the Arab World, to make people feel insecure, all this was and is the aim of people like Dr Ayman el-Zawahiri .
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:02 am

The trouble is, 'terrorism' is a method, not a philosophy. And 'terrorists' are basically individuals, not organisations.

Were the resistance fighters in Europe in WW2 'terrorists'? They certainly killed sentries, ambushed convoys, and blew up Axis-occupied buildings. Were the Irgun 'terrorists' when they bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946? Was the Una-bomber a terrorist? Or Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City? Come to that, was the 'Shock and Awe' bombing of the centre of Iraq at the beginning of the Iraq war 'terrorism', or was that 'OK' because the guys doing the bombing were wearing uniforms?

I reckon the whole idea of a 'War on Terror' is a fiction. A 'war' implies an identifiable enemy, a country or a group of people that you can identify and defeat. Al Queda uses terrorist methods because it hates America and the West; but it's perfectly clear that a lot of the attacks in Iraq are not Al Queda sponsored; some are carried out by rival religious groups in a struggle for power, and others by a 'resistance movement' aimed at ending the Occupation.

The only way to defeat 'terrorism' is to find an 'all-round' political solution, so most of the people of a given country are on the side of 'law and order'. Taking Ireland, the case I know best, IRA terrorism went on for thirty years; the eventual solution was a 'peace process' which gave political recognition to Sinn Fein (and also, in return for peace, pardoned a helluva lot of the 'terrorists'). That hasn't worked properly - a lot of the grievances on both sides are still there - but at least things are a lot quieter than they were.

The US and the rest of the 'Coalition' can pour as many soldiers as they like into places like Iraq; but they won't stop the 'terrorism' until a political solution is found that gives a majority of all the people there some hope of a 'fair shake'.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 168):
Were the Irgun 'terrorists' when they bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 and killed Count Bernadotte and assassinated the people in Deir-Yassin? Was the Una-bomber a terrorist? Or Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City?

in all three cases, the answer is YES

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 168):
a 'War on Terror'

it simply is a mis-naming. There is a struggle against terrorism, just as there is against drug-trafficking, murder, and other organised crime. Only the US- government has that "war", the rest of the world fights against crime .....
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 168):
The trouble is, 'terrorism' is a method, not a philosophy. And 'terrorists' are basically individuals, not organisations.

With a method, there has to be an object, or, if you will, a philosophy. With groups like Al Qaeda, or Hamas, or Hezbollah, the philosophies are things like the destruction of Israel, driving the west out of the Middle East, even demanding that the west accept, embrace and convert to Islam-their version of it, of course.

And It isn't an individual thing. People who buy into this crap buy into it because of those goals, usually articulated by someone else, like OBL. They may be loose-knit cells, but they ARE ogranizations, because, for the most part, an individual, by himself, cannot be trained "properly", get materials or intel needed to carry out attacks, and get the inspiration to actually follow through with terrorists acts.

So, on both counts, you're dead wrong, in my view.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 170):
you're dead wrong, in my view.

Dead wrong that armies can't fix the problem and that political solutions have to be found, Falcon84?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:37 am

ME AVN FAN, please immediately edit out the passage you ADDED to the quote of my post you put on.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 171):
Dead wrong that armies can't fix the problem and that political solutions have to be found, Falcon84?

Iraq isn't ready yet for a "political solution", my friend. It's still too unstable. The situation around Iraq is tenuous, with constant insurgency attacks. Iraq does not have a law enforcement nor military infrastructure to secure the nation by itself (Thanks, Paul Bremmer, you asshole).

A political solution is only possible with a stable nation. Iraq is not such at this time.

Talk cannot always solve everything. There is a time an place for diplomacy. Unfortunately, the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue didn't think diplomacy was important, so, now, force is still needed to HELP stabalize the nation.

I'm not saying this directly to you, but there is always people who think that talk will solve all problems. Well, it can't. There has to be good intentions on both sides. And, right now, the insurgents don't have good intentions. They mean to destabilize, throw the nation into Civil War, and get the Americans to leave. Until that changes, a political solution is remote at best.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 172):
the passage you ADDED

I am sorry, too late
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 170):
With a method, there has to be an object, or, if you will, a philosophy. With groups like Al Qaeda, or Hamas, or Hezbollah, the philosophies are things like the destruction of Israel, driving the west out of the Middle East, even demanding that the west accept, embrace and convert to Islam-their version of it, of course.

that they want to drive the West out of the Middle East, and the West to do this and that, and to eliminate Israel, is only half the point. The major and central point is that they want the Arab World to accept and adopt their version of Islam, their "way of life", and no longer to have any kind of free and modern life, and to stop social progress. The severe damage caused to incoming tourism to many Arab countries was very much part of the intentions of elQaeda and Hamas and Hizb'ullah.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 173):
military infrastructure

as soon as the US-Americans will be gone, the Iraqi officers corps will return, and the hidden Soviet weapons will be brought back. And both Russia and France will supply replacement gear within a short time. So that the infrastructure will be in place very swiftly.
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 161):

The CV is Syria was involved. If Syria was involved, there's little doubt who carried it out for Syria.

Keep drinking, dude.

Buddy I'm no fan of the Hezbollah, they are a threat to the security and prosperity of the country.

But the fact is, at the time of the killing, syria did not need anyone to carry out anything for them. The syrian army was deployed over 2/3 of the territory if not more. They were even responsible of the security and police work in a big part of the country. Their secret services were spread all over the country, with at least one base in heart of beirut and their headquarters in anjar, bekaa.
Just before they left, a thick smoke was seen coming out of these places for days: they were burning all the documents that they had accumulated for all this time.

Back then, the frontier with syria was open and they could have brought in a team from syria, iraq or even iran to do the job, possibilities are endless yet we did not yet see a shred of evidence pointing to the hezbollah, on the countrary it all seems to lead to syria and the puppet gouvernement/mafia that they had installed in lebanon (i'm referring to the Mehlis report).
rolf
 
GDB
Posts: 14254
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 3:24 am

Sorry, but if stone throwers WERE shot in the wake of the road crash in Kabual is true, then it IS inexcuseable, unless they were about to be rushed by a mob.

My point was, British Troops in N.I. had to cope daily with attacks less severe than what looks to have happened in Kabul.
Without using their rifles, which of course, the IRA members who sometimes provoked disturbances, really wanted, more grist to the 'Brit Bastards' mill, with a large and typically ill-informed audience across the pond.

If this could be done for over 25 years, often as part of extreme provocation, why cannot another professional army grasp this?
If they overreacted like that at some stones, what are they going to be like when they come under real fire?

L-188, yes NORAID and fellow travellers did make a lot of noise about Baton Round use in N.I. sometimes they were lethal, though considering the numbers used, it must have been a very low percentage, designed to be like a very hard punch that knocks you off your feet, well one hard punch does occasionally kill.
The USAF were very nearly prevented from buying the Short Sherpa aircraft in 1984, due to pressure by, call them what they were , terrorist supporters, in a loud campaign, that cited Baton Round use.

Baton Rounds were designed to keep any mob at a distance (thus making it much less likely that a situation could arise where lethal force had to be used), as well as making use of a mob as a cover for a gun attack less likely.
CS gas was indiscriminate and not very effective, water cannon were too vunerable, the original US suppilied rubber rounds and dispensers were lethal too often, hence the baton round.

Before a Batallion went to N.I on either a two month or two year tour, they were given intense training in counter insurgency, riot control etc.
As for most of this period, the cold war NATO commitments were a reality, often technical personnel and temporarily dismounted armoured regiments had to do this role too.
It can be done.

If it is not being done prior to Iraq/Afghan deployment, why not?
(That quoted newspaper line about 'education' from an interviewed British soldier, was not about a PHd in social science, rather about learning some basic Arabic words, greetings, being made aware what can be inadvertently offensive to the local culture. And they won't have been fed the line about Iraq having something to do with 9/11 either).

Back to Iraq, the big question now was if there was an attempt to cover up this incident?
There was, the BS story about a 'firefight' after an explosion.
AGM-100's and some others logic on here justifying it, is no different to what was said about 'collective punishment' on whole villages in Russia and occupied Europe in the 1940's.

Not in Iraq, as part of a policy, no one sane is claiming that, but that's small comfort, this was an incident that was not like dropping a bomb from 1000's of feet at what the pilot thought was a proper target, this is much worse.
Up close and personal, one young girl told the news this evening how the Marines banged on her house door, her father who opened it was shot, entering the home, the Marines shot her mother, and two of the siblings, another had her grandfather killed by a grenade thrown in the room he was in.
This it seems was repeated across the villiage.

I would like to see anyone justify that-so a comrade had recently been killed by a bomb. Just imagine if everyone acted like that.
Imagine if the British Army in N.I had acted like this every time a bomb killed one of them-such a large uprising and international revulsion would have forced a policy change that could have handed a de-facto IRA victory, or N.I. full scale civil war, or both.
Instead, however he spins it now, it was Gerry Adams who told the UK Government in 1992 'the war is over but we need your help to bring it about'.
A war his side started.

Since senior US law makers have seen the report, and by all accounts are aghast at what they read, I should not waste too much bandwidth trying to justify this incident.
It is about the worst sort of war crime.
The news report also mentioned preparations for murder trials, which if so is good news, and the least that should be done.
It is looking like 3 or 4 trigger pullers, plus those who covered it up, ultimately right up the chain of command.

Hoping for an outright win on some 'war on terror' is like chasing rainbows, it might be possible to greatly lower the amount of Islamic terror, at best.
But no hammer blow-what is there in the way of a solid target to hammer?

You could indeed 'win' by reducing terror, but would you know you've won?
 
mrmeangenes
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:56 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
Not just there. That corrupted sense of what's right and justified permeates the entire administration. Just recently making someone a supreme court judge who had "excelled" by making up excuses why the US government did not need to observe human rights speaks louder than words.

I'm sorry, Klaus, but I am old enough to remember Germany has a glorious-and a deplorable history.(I am sure you would prefer I not mention the latter !)

When I read your "keen critiques" of my nation and my government, I am reminded of a pig farmer, who tracks great clods of manure into a neighbor's home,and who then complains because the neighbor's paintings are hung off plumb. Just before leaving, he wrinkles his nose, and says: "Something smells bad in here !"

You are, of course, free to voice your opinions here - as am I;and my opinion is that we really don't need to become EUrocrats to manage.
gene
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 178):
Sorry, but if stone throwers WERE shot in the wake of the road crash in Kabual is true, then it IS inexcuseable, unless they were about to be rushed by a mob.

From everything I've seen, this mob was throwing stones at them, and were definitely threatening them. What you seem to suggest is that they just allow stones be thrown at them, because it isn't really a weapon, and by the way, they weren't probably trying to harm the soldiers.

Ok. Uh huh. Whatever you say...
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 179):
I'm sorry, Klaus, but I am old enough to remember Germany has a glorious-and a deplorable history.(I am sure you would prefer I not mention the latter !)

It apparently exceeds your wildest imagination, but we germans are actually not particularly reluctant to discuss the crimes and the genocide committed in the name of our nation. The holocaust memorial in Berlin is large, obvious and directly vis-a-vis to the Reichstag, our Parliament. And there are thousands of related memorials all through the country. This is a regular topic in culture, society and politics. So please, do mention the war if you're interested!

The not-so-subtle difference here is that the very foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany and its democratic society is the full and explicit rejection of those earlier atrocities. We do not wish to have any continuation or identification with the nazi regime (or, to a slightly lesser extent, the eastern german stalinist one).

Your problem is that you not only seem to have trouble understanding exactly what I was talking about, but you also seem to have a profound lack of knowledge about international history, even in matters which are relatively closely connected to the history of your own home country.

You seem to be one of those timid americans who are afraid of acknowledging the dark spots on the record of your own country. Americans have a lot to be proud of, not least regarding what they did for Europe in general and for Germany in particular.

But trying to sweep past or current screwups under the rug simply doesn't work any more and is simply shameful for everybody who professes to be for freedom and democracy. Shit happens - so be a grownup and take responsibility instead of attacking and blaming everybody else for it. That is the honourable thing to do.

Holding your own eyes shut doesn't prevent anybody else from seeing what's going on - it only makes you look like a fool.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 181):
But trying to sweep past or current screwups under the rug simply doesn't work any more and is simply shameful for everybody who professes to be for freedom and democracy. Shit happens - so be a grownup and take responsibility instead of attacking and blaming everybody else for it. That is the honourable thing to do.

I think you misunderstand the emotions from Mrmean. Most of the people who are complaining about the reaction to this tragedy are not saying that this is not a tragedy, but that this atrocities are used to indict the entire army in Iraq. When I hear Mr. Murtha claim that the army kills more Iraqis per day than the terrorists, I makes me cringe at the exaggeration. Things are not being placed in a good perspective. To me, its like some countries complaining about the torture in US prisons, while their own prisioners are treated in worse fashion that the US.

I know my history, btw, and for example I am well aware of the fact that most Germans, including the army, had no part in the holocaust.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 9:59 am

My question is, Why is the world being allowed to hear about this in the first place. This access the media has to the combat areas is unacceptable and must be stopped. Didn't the Army learn anything from the abu grai prison photos ?
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
QANTAS077
Topic Author
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 113):
against an insurgency in Iraq

an insurgency that exists because the allies illegal occupation/invasion, you ever see mass suicide bombings coming out of Iraq 3 years ago? allied forces made the mess in Iraq, nobody else to blame but themselves.

"HUTHAIFA AZZAM: Iraq actually went out of control, this is the word I can say and they will never control the horrible which will spread and which will spread into the whole world the effects and the bad effects of the Iraqi war hasn't begun yet." great, so you create one mess and by the sound of it more will follow.

have a read of this, you'll soon see what your govt and mine are really up against.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1628055.htm




Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 120):
Intelligence didn't work - obviously . . . .

could have if that idiot running your country stuck to the job at hand instead of creating another mess, getting Bin Laden/Al Qaida/Taliban seems to be the last thing on the mind of US administration. it's one cockup after another, one death after another, yet the worlds most wanted terrorist is still at large, brilliant, that does exactly fill me with a feeling of safety. now we see the Taliban starting to reform again in Afghanistan.

[Edited 2006-05-31 03:43:18]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 182):
Most of the people who are complaining about the reaction to this tragedy are not saying that this is not a tragedy, but that this atrocities are used to indict the entire army in Iraq.

Which is the rare exception in this thread - and the complaints look a lot like a blustering diversion so they don't have to actually deal with the problem.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 182):
I know my history, btw, and for example I am well aware of the fact that most Germans, including the army, had no part in the holocaust.

Which would not be exactly true... The Wehrmacht actually was instrumental in many atrocities all across Europe and directly participated in some of them. And most germans did indeed know or at least guess what all the persecution of the jews and others was leading up to, even though they carefully avoided thinking too hard about it.

The extent of the cruelty is vastly different, and the intentions are certainly different as well; But the group dynamics, the use of propaganda, the self-aggrandization and denial and several other factors are creepily reminiscent of those unholy precedents.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 184):
yet the worlds most wanted terrorist is still at large, brilliant, that does exactly fill me with a feeling of safety

And he has struck the US how many times since 9/11?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 185):
The Wehrmacht actually was instrumental in many atrocities all across Europe and directly participated in some of them

I thought it was mostly the SS.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 185):
And most germans did indeed know or at least guess what all the persecution of the jews and others was leading up to, even though they carefully avoided thinking too hard about it.

Since you mentioned first, yes, I knew that. But they werent directly involved.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 185):
The extent of the cruelty is vastly different, and the intentions are certainly different as well; But the group dynamics, the use of propaganda, the self-aggrandization and denial and several other factors are creepily reminiscent of those unholy precedents.

But which side? Yes, I see the scary precedents as comparing this subject to WWII. But the original problem with WWII was that the world was not willing to stand up to Hitler, and ignored his threats till it was too late to prevent a much bigger conflict to erupt. In other words, the world was unwilling to support the 'warmongers' who wanted to eliminate this problems, and the chants of 'no war' were widely supported, as was Hitler in many intellectual quarters. You see what that inaction led to then, and where do you think the lack of action will lead us now?
 
QANTAS077
Topic Author
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 186):
And he has struck the US how many times since 9/11?

since when has it been just about the US? it wasn't just americans that died on 9/11, my countrymen died also. Madrid, Bali, Iraq...any of those places ring a bell? or are they not disregarded because it's not on US soil? it's that kind of arrogant thinking that makes so many despise the USA.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 186):
I thought it was mostly the SS.

Mostly, yes. But the military participated as well.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 186):
Since you mentioned first, yes, I knew that. But they werent directly involved.

And the current US population was not "directly" involved in Abu Ghraib. But in both cases the manipulated and voluntarily ignorant masses drove and covered the more extreme excesses.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 186):
But which side?

It takes an extreme extent of historical ignorance to mistake Hitler in the 1930s with Saddam in 2003. Saddam had neither the means nor the intention to duplicate Hitler's follies, even though the Bush administration worked hard to implant this ludicrous comparison into people's minds to justify their own attack and invasion.

A really crafty diversion, but that house of cards has already come down hard by now.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 183):
My question is, Why is the world being allowed to hear about this in the first place. This access the media has to the combat areas is unacceptable and must be stopped. Didn't the Army learn anything from the abu grai prison photos ?

Your reach for sarcasm was lame and completely childish.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 184):
an insurgency that exists because the allies illegal occupation/invasion,

Never said otherwise. I totally agree.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 184):
you ever see mass suicide bombings coming out of Iraq 3 years ago?

Nope, because Western News Media wasn't there to report only the blood and gore . . . . and because, unlike Allied Forces in Iraq (with the few exceptions noted in this thread unfortunately) Saddams henchmen simply killed off and possible threat (whether said threat actually materialized or not) and buried the supposed insurgents (and usually innocent victims) in mass graves which we've of course uncovered time and time again.

The Allied forces (again, with the exceptions noted in this thread unfortunately) don't simply go about haphazardly killing off hundreds of people at a time and suhffling their bodies into giant holes in the sand.

Sorry Monte, I don't buy it, not for an instant . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 187):
it wasn't just americans that died on 9/11, my countrymen died also

And that is one reason why your country is fighting with the US.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 187):
it's that kind of arrogant thinking that makes so many despise the USA.

Hate for the US has been occurring since your grandparents were children and beyond. If you think the current rise of anti-US feeling is new, better read up on your history.

"...anti-Americanism was widespread among the Central Powers after the U.S. entered the First World War..."

"...even amongst the United States's allies, Britain and France, there was resentment at the end of the war as they found themselves massively in debt to the United States."

"the fall of the Soviet Union may have brought an increase in anti-Americanism, because the U.S. was left as the world's only superpower, and people who formerly saw the United States as a bastion against Communism or needed the American security umbrella no longer felt the need to support the United States"
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 191):
Hate for the US has been occurring since your grandparents were children and beyond. If you think the current rise of anti-US feeling is new, better read up on your history.

And the existence of even one single unjustified criticism automatically absolves everyone of any self-critical introspection, of course - right?

Wow, if we only had known about that easy cop-out here in Germany!  crazy 
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 147):
Yes, I assist anybody who wants to enter my country, legal or not, by providing them with instructions on how not to die.

You admit that you help people enter the U.S. illegally?????????????????????


In other words you are a law breaker. Time to strip away your citizenship if in fact you do break American laws. We as Americans don't need people like you as citizens. Period. No other discussion necessary.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:36 pm

What is interesting about this thread is that some of us now know who the enemy and law breakers are.

Amazing that it has not been locked yet considering the hole some of you are digging for yourselves.

Time to suggest it perhaps.

LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 173):
I'm not saying this directly to you, but there is always people who think that talk will solve all problems. Well, it can't. There has to be good intentions on both sides. And, right now, the insurgents don't have good intentions. They mean to destabilize, throw the nation into Civil War, and get the Americans to leave. Until that changes, a political solution is remote at best.

Agree entirely that getting the Americans to leave is the primary intention of the 'insurgents'. Surely that would be the reaction of most of US, if a foreign power were to invade our country without reason, put everyone out of work, and commit atrocities to boot?

I think we both wish that, even though wrong-headed, the occupation had been organised with a lot more forethought and common sense - in particular, not destroying Iraq's economy and firing the civil service, local government, the army, and the police - but the fact remains that all those mistakes were made, and that it is now too late to remedy the situation. Most Iraqis have lost everything and are in despair - and blame the USA for their plight.

So the dilemma is, nothing can be done to restore any sort of normal life in Iraq until the insurgency stops; but the insurgency is not GOING to stop until the Americans leave.

I think that US forces will in fact begin a 'thinning out' process quite soon - within a couple of months. Not because they are making any progress towards 'normalisation', and not because they are in any sense 'winning' against the insurgency. They'll be leaving because the political imperative for the Republican Party, given that US forces have already suffered over 20,000 casualties and the toll is mounting all the time, is that it will be annihilated in the November elections unless it can point to some progress in getting the grunts out.

Over the next year or so I would expect lots more units being withdrawn, amid much talk of 'Vietnamisation' (sorry, slip of the keyboard, 'Iraqification'  Smile). Very possibly, one day, we'll be watching on TV the ultimate parallel with Vietnam - helicopters leaving the Green Zone?

Sorry if I seem overly cynical - but I'm not young any more, so for me it's not a matter of guessing what is LIKELY to happen in the future. It's much more a matter of looking back at what has ALWAYS happened in the past.

"Been there, done that......"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 193):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 147):
Yes, I assist anybody who wants to enter my country, legal or not, by providing them with instructions on how not to die.

You admit that you help people enter the U.S. illegally?????????????????????

Where you been Clipper????!!!

AR385s been bragging about this for weeks!!!!

Unconscionable to me . . . .

Actually, I think he sometimes talks out both sides of his mouth since he did mention in one post (a different thread) he couldn't get his Visa validated to get in the US, and later, that he was a Natural American Citizen . . . so, one has to wonder why does a US Citizen need a Visa to get into the US???  crazy 

The guy whole lines of  redflag  don't wash at all . . . .

He tosses out personal attacks like it's his job, and when you call him on his criminal activity, he gets his feelings hurts, cries to a moderator and you get your posts deleted . . . . take that as my experience with it

Best bet with AR385 . . . .

 talktothehand 

He wouldn't make a pimple on a decent American's ass Clipper.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 192):
And the existence of even one single unjustified criticism automatically absolves everyone of any self-critical introspection, of course - right?

No, of course not. All I am trying to explain is that what is now occurring in Iraq is nothing new, and has occurred plenty of times before, in wars which very few would deny that they are thankful that the US won.

And lets not change the subject. The issue was the implication that the current anti-americanism is something new, when that has occurred for a long time. If people want to criticize something or someone, they WILL find a reason to do so, regardless of logic.

And again, where have you seen the evidence of lack of instrospection? Most of these abuses where already being investigated and dealt with by the military before the press got a hold of them.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 188):
But in both cases the manipulated and voluntarily ignorant masses drove and covered the more extreme excesses.

This again you have no proof of, and frankly neither an argument. A lot of abuses have been uncovered, and the people implicated jailed. If you are looking for some more, I am sure you will find them. But also try to then find the 'abuses' that have been staged and proven to be staged.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 188):
It takes an extreme extent of historical ignorance to mistake Hitler in the 1930s with Saddam in 2003

And neither was that implied. But there are plenty of Muslim extremist factions whose aim is to make everyone a Muslim or else. These quotes are not hard to find for those who look for them. Yeah, so these extremist are a few and complete kooks, SO WERE THE NAZIS. Thats what I am saying. That is the threat I am referring to. The Nazi threat was ignored by Europe as well, and look what happened.

Saddam was small potatoes. But what do you think will happen to Islamic fundamentalism if it looses in Iraq? And then if Iran goes down the same tube? Then Islamic fundamentalism ceases to be a viable political system. Similar to what occurred to the Soviet Union. How many countries have chosen the path of communism since the fall of the Soviet Union?

The Iraq war has now become a proxy war between two political systems. And for the sake of what you hold dear, there is only one side for which you shall pray there is victory.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 196):
He wouldn't make a pimple on a decent American's ass Clipper.

Man no kidding.

Talk to the hand (of the law) LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Wed May 31, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 178):
Back to Iraq, the big question now was if there was an attempt to cover up this incident?
There was

GDB , If they did something wrong they will be punished for it. I do not support killing innocents ,,ever. But I also sympathize with our own and understand the situation that they are in. When the news story broke initialy we did not know the details we now do. What really pisses me off is the story came out right around memorial day and it just put a shadow on the whole day when we honor our fallen soldiers. (CWO Eckert killed Viet Nam). Kind of interesting that the story held until then....
Anyway, the Marines will be punished for their action and they should be.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !

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