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QANTAS077
Topic Author
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Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 7:20 pm

pretty disturbing to read about innocent people being killed because 1 marine was killed doing his duty.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday.

Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

The killings reportedly occurred while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were searching for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of the unit.

The Marines originally had reported that 15 civilians were killed by a roadside bomb in Haditha, a city along the Euphrates River in western Iraq. The Marines later suggested the civilians may have been caught in a firefight.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 7:28 pm

I have no sympathy for troops that do this . . . . I hope justice is swift and harsh . . . there is no excuse . . .

And they'll spend the rest of their days in Leavenworth . . . if found guilty.

What also chaps my ass is that there are another 125,000+ troops there trying to do the damn job right, and this handful of idiots makes a tremendous black mark on everything going on there. Furthermore - no one - very few - will remember there are another 125,000+ troops over there trying to do the damn job right, rather they'll focus on this platoon/squad of misfits and judge the entire operation by this incident. Every soldier over there will be condemned in toto for the actions of these idiots.
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Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 7:57 pm

It is certainly true that most troops are doing their best to behave properly; But there are also multiple reports that transgressions of occupation troops against iraqis often go unpunished unless they become visible in the western media (like this one, obviously).
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
But there are also multiple reports that transgressions of occupation troops against iraqis often go unpunished unless they become visible in the western media (like this one, obviously).

Care to share that and source it?

If you can get the info, obviously "the western media" can as well . . . perhaps you ought to feed the info to them . . . sort of a "put up or shut up" deal Klaus.

I certainly don't want any transgressions committed, and I'm certainly an advocate of harshly punishing those that commit transgressions against the Iraqi people.

So lets see what you have.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 8:27 pm

It was mentioned (and cases investigated) in more than one report by Iraq correspondents of our public broadcasting channels (ARD and ZDF) several months ago. They are well-reputed and generally reliable. Troop representatives denied knowledge of such events.

The problem is that at this moment, the occupation troops - and, much worse, the mercenaries - are outside of any effective control, especially any effective control accessible to iraqi civilians. With the very strong and very public emphasis on troop cohesion above everything else and the precedents such as Abu Ghraib and many others it is really difficult to summarily discount those reports.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
(ARD and ZDF) several months ago

Are these not part of "the Western Media"? Do you not think the US/UK also got these reports? DO you not think as hungry as the shameful US media is for blood, gut, controversy, scandal, that such reports would have played out here as well?

Abu Ghraib was shameful, and those responsible punished. So, if there was a precendent set there, it was "do not do this again".

You still have shown me any sources, other than mentioning ARD and ZDF. Both of which I know . . . both I understand to be reputable . . . remember, I lived there for a number of years.

What I think really is you're  stirthepot  without any solid source.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Are these not part of "the Western Media"?

Sure. I just don't know if any of the reported cases have been resolved afterwards.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Do you not think the US/UK also got these reports?

No, I don't know if their reporters followed those same or similar leads.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
DO you not think as hungry as the shameful US media is for blood, gut, controversy, scandal, that such reports would have played out here as well?

During the whole Iraq disaster my esteem for the US media in general has suffered significantly (with very few exceptions, such as salon.com). But it is quite possible that these issues have in fact been reported and simply weren't taken up in the public debate. I had heard of the apparent massacre referred to in the thread starter back when it happened, as I recall, but it didn't make major waves during the investigation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Abu Ghraib was shameful, and those responsible punished.

Correction: Some of those who were directly involved have been punished. This reaches up right to the top - but the punishment was carefully confined to a few selected scapegoats.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
So, if there was a precendent set there, it was "do not do this again".

Actually, it was "Don't get caught doing it!"

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
What I think really is you're  stirthepot  without any solid source.

No. Whatever you may think of me, I do not lie about things like that.

What I wrote is my recollection of the reports I watched. But you can probably find reputable online sources as well.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
I do not lie about things like that.

First off, I'd never suggest that . . .

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
What I wrote is my recollection of the reports I watched.

But your recollection of something is skewed by your prejudice against this war. Just as mine would be by my prejudice for the war.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
But you can probably find reputable online sources as well.

Your claim, you source it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Correction: Some of those who were directly involved have been punished. This reaches up right to the top - but the punishment was carefully confined to a few selected scapegoats.

So you're right - the top dogs in that hunt did in fact go unpunished. I have always said, that went right Rumsfeld.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KSYR
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 10:44 pm

What a horrible tragedy. Those involved deserve to be punished to the fullest extent possible; they are a disgrace to the United States and its military.
 
Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
First off, I'd never suggest that . . .

Okay. But then please don't allegate that I'd just have made it up.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
But your recollection of something is skewed by your prejudice against this war. Just as mine would be by my prejudice for the war.

There wasn't any opinion in it. I just reproduced the content of the reports back then.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Your claim, you source it.

I have.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
So you're right - the top dogs in that hunt did in fact go unpunished. I have always said, that went right Rumsfeld.

Not just there. That corrupted sense of what's right and justified permeates the entire administration. Just recently making someone a supreme court judge who had "excelled" by making up excuses why the US government did not need to observe human rights speaks louder than words.

Soldiers are above all people - and people are generally susceptible to peer pressure and group dynamics. Setting a certain tone and certain priorities from the top will have the respective consequences downstream if there aren't functioning safeguards in place to prevent exactly that.

Under constant pressure of shrill and undifferentiated propaganda from the top plus misguided strategies and tactics on one side and an ongoing resistance plus terrorism (not the same!) on the other, with more or less unprotected civilians caught in the middle, it is almost inevitable that there will be the kind of fallout we're watching. The november massacre is merely yet another tip of the iceberg.

Such things are not something that inexplicably pops up due to a few individuals being evil for no reason. They are the consistent result of the way the troops are being used by this administration, for both foreign and domestic politics. And it is not the first time this has become apparent, nor is the problem confined to the american forces. It is a constant throughout history.
 
NAV20
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sat May 27, 2006 11:42 pm

As it happens I was trained in 'counter-insurgency', because there was a chance that we'd be sent to Cyprus. Believe me, we got a lot more instruction on when we COULDN'T shoot than when we MIGHT be able to.

This news item makes me very sad. The parallels with Vietnam are so clear now; Fallujah = Hue', Sunni insurgency = Tet Offensive, Haditha = My Lai..........

I get the impression that the West Point-trained US top brass are like the Bourbons - they 'learn nothing and forget nothing.' Makes me so ANGRY that they don't apparently even TRY to train the GIs properly for the job in hand.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
11Bravo
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 12:02 am

This is appalling on so many levels. I've been watching this story develop for quite a while now, and I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around it. These men have disgraced themselves, the Marine Corps, and the United States to such an extent I find it hard to express the degree of my contempt, anger, and sadness.

These bastards murdered the very people we are supposed to be helping, the people we are "saving" from Saddam. They shot children in the back of the head while they were lying on the ground next to their parents,.... little fuckin' kids! What have we done?

With this single act of madness, these piece of shit Marines have created Lord knows how many more terrorists and millions upon millions who will never, ever, trust the United States again.

I demand some fuckin' serious accountability this time. I want Rumsfeld gone, and the Commandant of the Marine Corps with him. The officers who lead this unit and tried to cover this whole thing up need to go to jail.

As for the Marines in this platoon, give them to the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague. That's where they belong right along side the Nazis.
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L-188
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
As for the Marines in this platoon, give them to the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague

Oh hell no. The US will take care of punishing these troops, we did it with those prison guards, they will do it here. You send them there and it will be a dog and pony show for the international community.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
But there are also multiple reports that transgressions of occupation troops against iraqis often go unpunished unless they become visible in the western media (like this one, obviously).

Since they go reported, I wonder how many of them are actually legit, the US military at one time had a "War-room" set up to counter the BS that was comming out of Al-Jazeera.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
The parallels with Vietnam are so clear now; Fallujah = Hue', Sunni insurgency = Tet Offensive, Haditha = My Lai..........

Don't see them.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Since they go reported,

You mean all of them or just those you've heard about?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
I wonder how many of them are actually legit, the US military at one time had a "War-room" set up to counter the BS that was comming out of Al-Jazeera.

ARD and ZDF have their own correspondents in place and did/do their own investigations.

The problem is that iraqi complaints were apparently not even investigated. And that does raise serious questions, regardless of the validity of every individual case.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
ARD and ZDF have their own correspondents in place and did/do their own investigations.

The problem is that iraqi complaints were apparently not even investigated. And that does raise serious questions, regardless of the validity of every individual case.

Source please. I mean beyond the ARD and ZDF reference. Otherwise, Klaus, my friend, you're just pissin' in the wind . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I have no sympathy for troops that do this . . . . I hope justice is swift and harsh . . . there is no excuse . . .

And they'll spend the rest of their days in Leavenworth . . . if found guilty.

Agreed. But I'm sure if I read on in this thread (which I haven't yet), someone has, or soon will, make this an indictment against the U.S. military in general, just as they did with Abu Gharib.

Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of our personel in arms are decent people, just everyday Americans, who decided to serve, for whatever reason, and are probably as sick about this, if not more so, than any of us.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NWA742
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
But I'm sure if I read on in this thread (which I haven't yet), someone has, or soon will, make this an indictment against the U.S. military in general

Indeed, it has already happened.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of our personel in arms are decent people, just everyday Americans, who decided to serve, for whatever reason, and are probably as sick about this, if not more so, than any of us.

 checkmark 

100% agreed.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
cairo
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
125,000+ troops there trying to do the damn job right

One problem here is your definition of right. Right to you, I'm guessing, is doing a. what they were told to do by their commanders and b. in a way that conforms to the MCJ and/or other rules of the military.

For instance, if they were told to attack and gain possession of some objective, like say a town, and 100 unarmed civilians were killed in the process - you would have no problem with this assuming they did it according to the rules of the military.

The problem for the rest of us is that the US makes up its own rules about what is right. It listens to no other authority. Coincidentally, America's definition of right is usually what itself has already done, and changes depending on the circumstances of each incident, war, or conflict.

To Iraqis especially, but also to the entire Arab - Muslim world, this latest incident is not largely different from any of the 25000+ other unarmed civilian deaths that have occurred in Iraq. The only difference is that the 25000* previously killed were deemed acceptable results by America and these latest few killed were not - this distinction is arbitrary and hypocritical in the minds of most in this region.

I'm not asking you to agree with this - just try to understand that your own (America's) definitions of "acceptable" civilian deaths mean nothing to 1.2 billion Muslims - and - in fact show America as hypocritical for waging a 'war on terrorism' where terrorism is mainly defined as killing unarmed civlians.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Every soldier over there will be condemned in toto for the actions of these idiots.

To a certain degree, this does confirm the worst assumptions many have about those who join the military, however, this really is an indictment of America and American leadership, not the individual soldier. Most people I think rightly see low ranked individuals as merely following the spirit (if not always the letter) of the attitude and direction of their superiors.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
As for the Marines in this platoon, give them to the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague.

That is absolutely where they belong. Doing so would bring down the whole house of cards of the commanders in Iraq as a lot would be revealed - this is the real reason this will never happen, not because the president wants to protect US soldiers from the relatively mundane Dutch based court.

Cairo

*news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692589.stm
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
For instance, if they were told to attack and gain possession of some objective, like say a town, and 100 unarmed civilians were killed in the process - you would have no problem with this assuming they did it according to the rules of the military.

And your assumption would be dead wrong. Assumptions make an ass out of the person doing the assuming. I would have a big problem if a hundred unarmed civilians were killed. And at the hazard of bringing down the house, I'll say civilian casualties happen in war . . . in all wars . . . since time began . . . and will continue to happen forever and ever. You won't stop it, nor will I . . .

Furthermore, for you to assert this is a problem with only to US is ridiculous.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
in fact show America as hypocritical for waging a 'war on terrorism' where terrorism is mainly defined as killing unarmed civlians.

This is utter nonsense. I don't know how you could type it with a straight face.

The War on Terror is a war against those that find it completely acceptable to kill unarmed civilians . . . your definition is as absurd as I've seen. I have yet to see an unarmed terrorist . . .

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
this really is an indictment of America and American leadership, not the individual soldier.

That too is bullshit. I defy you to find any leader in the US Military that thinks it's simply OK to shoot down unarmed civilians - and if reports are correct - even some of these victims were in their beds. Again, you've no clue Cairo . . . I defy you to find me one US Military leader that find this acceptable???

Of course, I predicted a post like yours would pop up in this thread . . . a indictment of the entire US military because of the actions of a renegade group of assholes . . .

Fortunately, the people with a tad bit of common sense knows your accusations to be false and inflammatory.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
satx
Posts: 2781
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
What also chaps my ass

...and takes up the majority of my post...  sarcastic 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
I do not lie about things like that.

First off, I'd never suggest that . . .

You just did.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
What I wrote is my recollection of the reports I watched.

But your recollection of something is skewed by your prejudice against this war. Just as mine would be by my prejudice for the war.

Klaus' recollection "is" skewed but your recollection "would be" skewed? Why the heck isn't your recollection skewed right now but Klaus' is? This is what I'm talking about when I allege that you're hypocritical with your posts.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
So you're right - the top dogs in that hunt did in fact go unpunished. I have always said, that went right Rumsfeld.

The only thing that stops at Rumsfeld is your willingness to question the administration.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
As for the Marines in this platoon, give them to the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague

You send them there and it will be a dog and pony show for the international community.

If that's the only reason not to hand them over, then I say "Hand them over!" What kind of arrogant yellow bellied country have we become that we refuse to hand over our international war criminals to an objective party?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
But there are also multiple reports that transgressions of occupation troops against iraqis often go unpunished unless they become visible in the western media (like this one, obviously).

Since they go reported, I wonder how many of them are actually legit, the US military at one time had a "War-room" set up to counter the BS that was comming out of Al-Jazeera.

You mean the same "war room" that's been busy stocking Iraqi newspapers with pro-American propaganda? The more the US tries to bully our way into the hearts of the world, the more we convince them we're full of shit.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
The parallels with Vietnam are so clear now; Fallujah = Hue', Sunni insurgency = Tet Offensive, Haditha = My Lai..........

Don't see them.

You wouldn't see them even if we were fighting on Vietnamese soil. Actually, even then you wouldn't see them.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):

The problem is that iraqi complaints were apparently not even investigated. And that does raise serious questions, regardless of the validity of every individual case.

 checkmark  100% Exactly.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Agreed. But I'm sure if I read on in this thread (which I haven't yet), someone has, or soon will, make this an indictment against the U.S. military in general, just as they did with Abu Gharib.

Yes, that should be our primary concern.

(Perhaps I just discovered how an American 'liberal' got such a high RR on here)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of our personel in arms are decent people, just everyday Americans, who decided to serve, for whatever reason, and are probably as sick about this, if not more so, than any of us.

All it takes to turn an otherwise upstanding man into a war criminal is a war. Put yourself in the alternate world of an actively occupied country and you just might surprise yourself with what you're truly capable of.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 16):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
But I'm sure if I read on in this thread (which I haven't yet), someone has, or soon will, make this an indictment against the U.S. military in general

Indeed, it has already happened.

Yes, the glorified PR of US military is the side which needs protecting and not the livelihood of the Iraqi civilians.  sarcastic 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
I would have a big problem if a hundred unarmed civilians were killed.

But you only believe that this occurred in any given event if someone on here produced photos, videos, notarized confessions, and a personal letter from George Bush. Actually I'm just joking. You'd never believe it.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
And at the hazard of bringing down the house, I'll say civilian casualties happen in war . . . in all wars . . . since time began . . . and will continue to happen forever and ever. You won't stop it, nor will I . . .

Oh, but it's okay if that ever did happen because war is hell anyway.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Furthermore, for you to assert this is a problem with only to US is ridiculous.

I always get a chuckle when people bring this up. What difference does it make?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
I defy you to find me one US Military leader that find this acceptable???

In other words... find someone who will admit in public that they find this acceptable.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Of course, I predicted a post like yours would pop up in this thread . . . a indictment of the entire US military because of the actions of a renegade group of assholes . . .

Just as we all predicted your posts would spend a few words on how much these men may need to be punished, and then go on and on about how the military needs to be protected from public criticism and dissent.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Fortunately, the people with a tad bit of common sense knows your accusations to be false and inflammatory.

The very definition of hypocrisy?
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Why the heck isn't your recollection skewed right now but Klaus' is?

Obviously we're back to the lack of comprehension thing . . . Klaus seemed to clearly understand what I said . . . would you like me to paint a picture for you so you can understand as well? Or would you prefer it be something more simple . . . elementary school flash cards perhaps?

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):

The problem is that iraqi complaints were apparently not even investigated. And that does raise serious questions, regardless of the validity of every individual case.

 checkmark  100% Exactly.

Still no source . . . still . . . but you agree anyway . . . how surprising?  crazy  No, check that . . . not at all surprising in fact.

I take Klaus at his word that he's seen this reports - I don't always agree with him, but I don't know that he ever lies or skews what he has read or seen to fit his agenda (what ever that may be). First his contention that if it were brought to the attention of the Western Media, it would have been investigated. Second he points out that ZDF and ARD had the reports. Third, they are western media outlets. Fourth, no link, or story or other source provided to support his claim that there was no investigation or that these supposed "transgressions" were brought to the attention of the US. Does that make it simpler for you to grasp, or are we back to the elementary school flash cards again?

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
I would have a big problem if a hundred unarmed civilians were killed.

But you only believe that this occurred in any given event if someone on here produced photos, videos, notarized confessions, and a personal letter from George Bush. Actually I'm just joking. You'd never believe it.

That's horseshit and you know it. . . . more of your inane blather . . . I already know it happens . . . did you bother to read the rest of that paragraph? Did you put it in context? Of course not . . . you continue to pick and choose sentences and respond to them completely out of left field. Really far left field . . .

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
And at the hazard of bringing down the house, I'll say civilian casualties happen in war . . . in all wars . . . since time began . . . and will continue to happen forever and ever. You won't stop it, nor will I . . .

Oh, but it's okay if that ever did happen because war is hell anyway.

It's never okay, and war is hell - of course, you would never know . . . you've not the gut to give it a go . . . instead you rely on people like myself, DL021, 11Bravo, UH60, USNSealLt and others to do your bidding there - and then have the unmitigated gall to villify us and our fellow soldiers when we do. You're shameful - utterly, totally shameful. A disgrace.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Furthermore, for you to assert this is a problem with only to US is ridiculous.


I always get a chuckle when people bring this up. What difference does it make?

Once again - you have to read the entire paragraph . . . and quote it too. I'm not going to repeat myself though. You're not worth the time or effort.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Of course, I predicted a post like yours would pop up in this thread . . . a indictment of the entire US military because of the actions of a renegade group of assholes . . .

Just as we all predicted your posts would spend a few words on how much these men may need to be punished, and then go on and on about how the military needs to be protected from public criticism and dissent.

If found guilty, as I said, there is no punishment harsh enough for these handful of assholes. And, just as I said you and your ilk condemn the entire US military for the actions of a few . . . pathetic. And just as I said it would be.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

Fortunately, the people with a tad bit of common sense knows your accusations to be false and inflammatory.

I guess this doesn't apply.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:22 pm

Quote:An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued. Time Warner is the parent

Kind of funny , you never see these people comment when Iraqi civs are blown up by terrorists.

Senario:
Someone plants a IED , you walk into it ,your freind killed, the residents around could have warned you. they are the enemy. And we know what Marines do to the enemy. Sad situation
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Pyrex
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
And they'll spend the rest of their days in Leavenworth . . . if found guilty.

I sure hope that is the case, if they are found guilty. However, the track record of that happening is not brilliant. There was even a case in Vietnam (don't remember the name) where the helicopter crew who reported the situation and did their best to stop it were the ones who in the end got shafted. The commander of the troops in question was actually branded as a hero.
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pelican
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:50 pm

Is anybody really suprised by such incidents? It's a fucking war and such things happen in wars. That's the reason why we should be cautions about starting a war. (and no this comment doesn't say anything about the justification of this war)

pelican
 
11Bravo
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
That is absolutely where they belong. Doing so would bring down the whole house of cards of the commanders in Iraq as a lot would be revealed

I don't see any indication that would happen. You seem to think there's evidence of widespread war-crimes by American forces in Iraq or that US commanders ordered these Marines to do what they did. I think your pissing up a rope there. There's a big difference between what you want to be true and what has actually occurred here.

The reason I believe it may be appropriate to send these scum to the War Crimes Tribunal is because we need transparency and a neutral arbiter of the facts. There was overwhelming dis-satisfaction outside the US with the Abu Ghraib investigation in large part because people thought the US military was covering it's own ass. To avoid that conflict of interest we should have any forthcoming judicial proceedings conducted by a third party.
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Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Sun May 28, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
One problem here is your definition of right. Right to you, I'm guessing, is doing a. what they were told to do by their commanders and b. in a way that conforms to the MCJ and/or other rules of the military.

Exactly. They were given an assignment by their Commander-in-Chief. They really have no say-so, having taken an oath to do so if called upon. And while some of them may not agree with going into Iraq, 99.999999% of them want to do the right thing, given the peramaters of their mission, and to give Iraq a chance as a free nation.

So, yes, you are correct. That's not a problem, that's a fact of being in the Armed Forces of any naiton, my friend.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
For instance, if they were told to attack and gain possession of some objective, like say a town, and 100 unarmed civilians were killed in the process - you would have no problem with this assuming they did it according to the rules of the military.

Wrong. There are rules of engagement, that if a commander is competent and knows what is acceptable or not, such things should not happen. Unfortunately, in every war, on ever side in every war, it has happened. It isn't something particular to this war. I would have a problem with it, and so would most of the Armed Forces, from top to bottom, of the United States.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
The problem for the rest of us is that the US makes up its own rules about what is right. It listens to no other authority.

That a bunch of horse shit, and you know it, but in your utter ignorance about the United State, and the rules of conduct in force with the Armed Forces and it's personnel.

You want to see making it up as you go, try the Nazi's; try the Soviet Union; try Saddam Hussein and Khomeini. Look at the actions of Imperial Japan in WWII, who cut off the heads of prisoners of war, and put them on grueleing death Marches. You won't find that in the annals of the U.S. military. You take a single horrible, unjistified incident, and you pin it on the entire United States! That's utter crap, and you know it.

The United States has as good, if not better, record of conduct during war, than just about any nation. And if the best you can do is bring up three incidents- My Lai, Abu Gharib and this one-which I can assure you no sane American condoned-then the facts are on my side.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
Coincidentally, America's definition of right is usually what itself has already done, and changes depending on the circumstances of each incident, war, or conflict.

Another piece of crap, which you know is untrue. If that was true, the perps of My Lai, Abu Gharib and this incident would not have been punished. But they were. And they were given time in prison, and are rejected by the U.S. military, and, in general, the United States public, as it should be.

You want such instances, look at the Nazi death camps; the Bataan Death March; the fact that 1 out of 300 German soldiers captured by the USSR returned alive after WWII. And you have the balls to blame the entire United States for this. Some advice-stay the hell out of this nation. Don't ask to enjoy our way of life when you're here, since you hate us so much.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
To a certain degree, this does confirm the worst assumptions many have about those who join the military,

Shows your assumptions are wrong, and shows again either incredible naivete, or downright and intentional lying on your part. Most of the front-line soldiers are everyday Americans, who CHOSE to serve in the armed forces.

In fact, you'll proably find a higher incidence rate of such things in a conscrpted military, since many are there aganst their will.

A lot of them are young kids, looking for a way out of poverty; some are fathers, and mothers, and husbands and wives. You make it sound like they were trained by the SS, and that is offensive to every decent American.

What is truly amazing is you've spent time here, and you STILL believe this utter bullshit. Again, that's why I say stay away. You obviously hate our guts, so we really would rather you stay in Egypt, and maybe join a Jihad or something.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
As for the Marines in this platoon, give them to the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague.

That is absolutely where they belong.

That's the last thing that should happen. Every other nations is allowed to deal with their soldiers/sailors/airmen that break the rules, why should the U.S. be different. Once you drag a soldier from ANY NATION, in front of a war crimes tribunal, you open that nation, and any nation, the the whims of those-like you-who simply hate people from a certain nation. That isn't justice, that's looking for vengance.

I don't know if I agree with him, but in 1946, when the Munich trials began, my dad told me his father told him that it was the worst mistake we ever made, because someday, some fool-like you-would want to haul American soldiers before such a tribunal.

Would you also suggest Saddam Hussein be hauled before such a commission, for his crimes of killing his own people? Or are you only for hauling Americans in front of this Kangaroo Court?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Assumptions make an ass out of the person doing the assuming.

Hee-Haw.

Signed,

Cairo

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Furthermore, for you to assert this is a problem with only to US is ridiculous.

Amen. It's funny that people like Cairo, who should know better, try to narrow this down to solely a problem in the American armed forces. It happens in any armed force, always has, and always will, unfortunately.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
this really is an indictment of America and American leadership, not the individual soldier.

I rest my case. This isn't an indictment of the commanders, of George Bush, or the Amereican people. How dare you. It was INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS BY INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS. As much as I dislike George Bush, I can tell you with perfect confidence that when he heard this news, it hurt him personally, and probably pissed him off to no end. It pisses off EVERY American who has decency and values, Cairo.

It is an indictment of the fact that in every military there are bad eggs. There always has, in ever force in every nation, since men first fought each other. It's terrible; it's unacceptable, and it will always happen as long as men fight wars.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, because I earnestly believe this-stay away from the United States. You obviously loathe our society, our people, our way of life, so why should you enjoy our hospitality?
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Thread starter):
The Marines originally had reported

isn't there the saying "tell it to the Marines" ?
> whatever, they besmearch the reputation and name of their whole army, and betrayed their colleagues in duty, beside committing murder
> they conveyed, to the Iraqi people, the impression that ALL US-Marines were treacherous crooks and murderers
> they by their misdeeds supported the propaganda of extremists of all sides alike
-
-------
Let's be realistic, everybody may understand that the killing of a colleague is not amusing and can make people angry, BUT imagine that every policeman who loses a friend in the force would react that way ? it would be hell on earth
-
and true enough, being in a regular police force or armed force of a law-state means that you are DISadvantaged in comparison to "irregulars" and criminals because THEY are NOT bound by laws and rules of behaviours.
-
 
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
another 125,000+ troops there trying to do the damn job right, and this handful of idiots makes a tremendous black mark on everything going on there.

YES, that handful of idiots put the lifes of all their colleagues in the force seriously into jeopardy, and damage the interests of their force and their country, plus the interests of whomever around with common sense
 
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):

Obviously we're back to the lack of comprehension thing

Yes, as in lack of your ability to comprehend the point and your willingness to accuse others of the same flaw in order to shield yourself from similar accusations.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Still no source . . . still . . . but you agree anyway . . . how surprising?

So far only relatively low-level folks have been fully investigated and there have been a few reports of folks who said they complained of improper interrogation techniques without any formal investigations begun as a result. Even your own accusation that this apparently goes as high Rumsfeld would seem to back my position.

Of course, when the Pentagon considers imminent organ failure as a prerequisite for torture, what sort of techniques do you expect? When congress presented a bill trying to set the record strait, the US President signed it into law before remarking that the armed forces are apparently under no obligation to abide by it while he's still in office.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
I already know it happens

Which is precisely why war should never be fought unless it's absolutely necessary.

Iraq was not necessary.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
It's never okay, and war is hell - of course, you would never know . . . you've not the gut to give it a go . . . instead you rely on people like myself, DL021, 11Bravo, UH60, USNSealLt and others to do your bidding there - and then have the unmitigated gall to villify us and our fellow soldiers when we do. You're shameful - utterly, totally shameful. A disgrace.

If people think I'm shameful and a disgrace simply because I am willing to question the tactics and actions of our military and the motivations of those whom they serve, then I take that as a compliment.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
And, just as I said you and your ilk condemn the entire US military for the actions of a few . . . pathetic. And just as I said it would be.

The only people I've 'condemned' are those who take it upon themselves to shield the world's foremost fighting force from dissent and to endlessly question anyone who calls attention to the inevitable atrocities of war.
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Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 28):
The only people I've 'condemned' are those who take it upon themselves to shield the world's foremost fighting force from dissent and to endlessly question anyone who calls attention to the inevitable atrocities of war.

And, so far, SATX, I haven't seen that person on here. Everyone that I've seen has condemned it without reservation. What's your problem, then? We didn't condemn it loud enough.

On these things, my conservative side comes out. People like you and Cairo condemn the entire nation for the personal and conscious acts of a few. Those few don't represent the American people in any way, as far as I'm concerned, and they should be punished and incarcerated to the fullest extent of military law, which, to me, should be life in prison.
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
recollection of something is skewed

that there always is a shadow-figure applies to crime of every sort everywhere. THAT is why I am in favour to concentrate on cases known. NOT to take the culprits as subjects to judicial revenge, but simply as people who did wrong and committed what they DID commit. The emphasis has to be that they are brought seriously to justice, NOT that they are punished in ancient ways by crucifying, quartering, and breaking-on-the-wheel .
 
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
the residents around could have warned you. they are the enemy. And we know what Marines do to the enemy.

Including women and four-year-old kids who are lying helpless on their faces on the floors of their homes, AGM100?

I'm afraid that you're right, though; that's the size of it. The mindset of US forces in Iraq is increasingly to regard Iraqis - all or any Iraqis - as 'the enemy'.

Personally I'm fed up with discussing the rights and wrongs of this Iraq business. The fact is, the US and its partners (including us here in Australia) have just plain lost. Between us we've wrecked Iraq from end to end, and so destroyed the fabric of society as to allow the Shi'ite majority, the radical fundamentalist side of the Muslim religion, to emerge as the ruling group. They will undoubtedly, in the end, set up a Islamic republic with close ties to Iran; and there is nothing at all that we can do to stop them.

Staying there any longer can't do any good, and in fact (as we now see) can only lead to us doing even more harm, to the Iraqis and to ourselves. The only sensible thing to do is cut our losses and pull out.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
we got a lot more instruction on when we COULDN'T shoot than when we MIGHT be able to.

THAT is serious military education. Ask any policeman. Any "irregularity" may nullify days or even weeks of hard work.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
Source please. I mean beyond the ARD and ZDF reference. Otherwise, Klaus, my friend, you're just pissin' in the wind

well, I know the news-men of ARD + ZDF Klaus refers to, and would say that they ARE credible. One of the most important ones is Mr Ulrich Tilgner -> www.ulrich-tilgner.com > exactly however somebody who always reserves the point that due to lack of proof his hands are bound. As you say to be in a security-force you for sure know the point to KNOW but NOT to have proof.

[Edited 2006-05-28 17:22:39]
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:29 am

AND, to revert to the famous/infamous comparisons with the War in Vietnam. The war in Vietnam had a far more serious and well-founded basis than the one in Iraq as it was NOT based on lies and distortions and mis-leading information. It was based on the military treaty with the Republic of South-Vietnam taken over from French and Brits in the "East-of-Suez" accords between Eisenhower/Kennedy and Harold Macmillan, and resulted from military incursions from the sides of North-Vietnam by terrorist means. The Western side had the support of most of the city-dwellers in South Vietnam, possibly an overall majority and many people on the countryside, but the whole effort was gradually ruined by A) the changing political concepts of Messrs Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon B) the military Rambo-concepts of General William T. Westmoreland + C) the lack of understanding for realities of the lower echelons of the US forces there PLUS the often exceedingly brutal and summarising "procedures" of US-troops.
 
NAV20
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:58 am

One of those coincidences, ME AVN Fan (even to the word 'education') - just checked the British Observer newspaper, and it quotes a serving soldier as saying exactly what we both know:-

"British soldiers currently in Iraq said they were anxious to distance themselves from the Americans but that Iraqis did seem able to make a distinction. One private, who did not wish to be named, said: 'We are given an education: the Americans get shown how to use a gun. The Iraqis know the difference.'"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1784622,00.html
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Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 34):
"British soldiers currently in Iraq said they were anxious to distance themselves from the Americans but that Iraqis did seem able to make a distinction. One private, who did not wish to be named, said: 'We are given an education: the Americans get shown how to use a gun. The Iraqis know the difference.'"

 rotfl 

I didn't know the British military was in the business of education.

The only "education" the military is responsible for is to train a soldier/sailor/airman/marine to do their duty competently. To make it sound like most of the American military is made up of dummies is pretty rich, if you ask me.
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
To make it sound like most of the American military is made up of dummies is pretty rich, if you ask me.

I agree entirely that it would be, Falcon84, if that is what I'd said. But if you look back to my post 10, you'll find that I said nothing of the sort.

I said that US forces are not being properly trained for the job in hand. If they were, I'm sure that they'd be as good as anyone, and better than most.
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
to do their duty competently. To make it sound like most of the American military is made up of dummies is pretty rich

A) competently is THE word
B) the impression is now in Iraq and was back in the 60ies and 70ies that far too many US-force-men were/are "dummies" in far too many ways
C) lack of REAL competency was THE problem in Vietnam. Militarily the USA did WIN that war. A majority of South Vietnamese (just my assumption but most certainly correct ! ) supported the Western side, but lost out, lost out due to the "strategies" in force. Was that NOT "dummy-like" ?  scratchchin   shhh 
-
 
AC773
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 1:54 am

Generally speaking, I think the civilian death toll is apalling. The most recent estimates put the number somewhere between 37,972 and 42,346.

People often wonder why the Iraqi population isn't behind us anymore, but I think those figures make it quite plain. It reminds me of some historian on TV discussing the resistance in Vietnam. Here's what he said: "Your average farmer would most likely either support or be apathetic to the US troops present in his village. But the moment you drop a bomb down his chimney and his wife and daughter are killed, you've just made a Viet Cong."

In the interest of fairness I will say that I think this has got to be one of the toughest wars for any soldier to fight. There is no clearcut enemy. You have to be on your guard non-stop. You have to be wary of even the most benevolent looking people. Though the above case is completely inexcusable, I'll be the first to observe that in the heat of battle, mistakes can get made very quickly.

That said, take my comments with a large grain of salt. Unless you're there on the front lines, you don't have the whole story.

-AC773
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Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
B) the impression is now in Iraq and was back in the 60ies and 70ies that far too many US-force-men were/are "dummies" in far too many ways

I don't see where you get that from. Most of our troops have performed admirably under very difficult circumstances. To me, most of the fault lies with the mission they were given, which was not as clearly defined as the Administration would like you to believe. It also lies with the top brass and the politicians, who often make decision that aren't exactly conducive to victory, but instead are conducive to covering their asses or in garnering votes for re-election.
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
admirably under very difficult circumstances

"admirably" ?? under the circumstances which were known for decades ?? you mean admirable for dmmies ?  wave 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
with the mission they were given

the "mission given" was known all along for two decades, so what ?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
the top brass and the politicians, who often make decision that aren't exactly conducive to victory

the top brass is the one under discussion really, including your "leader maximo"
 
L-188
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
If that's the only reason not to hand them over, then I say "Hand them over!" What kind of arrogant yellow bellied country have we become that we refuse to hand over our international war criminals to an objective party?

Your first mistake is assuming that it is impartial. The international community has show itself time and time again that it would prefer to side with terrorisim against the US, as long as it doesn't get too big (9/11)

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
You wouldn't see them even if we were fighting on Vietnamese soil. Actually, even then you wouldn't see them

Actually you are right, there is one valid comparison. Left wingers like yourself lost that war too. Your crap against the war reached the enemy and gave them the will to fight thinking that the US was weak in it's willpower.

Why don't you do something to actually shorten this war and support our troops ok? No sell them out to a human rights court that is influence by countries like Syria and Iran.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Agreed. But I'm sure if I read on in this thread (which I haven't yet), someone has, or soon will, make this an indictment against the U.S. military in general, just as they did with Abu Gharib.


Yes, that should be our primary concern.

(Perhaps I just discovered how an American 'liberal' got such a high RR on here)

Yeah, they know you would sell out your own kind.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
Kind of funny , you never see these people comment when Iraqi civs are blown up by terrorists

Exactly, the US is the easier target for those hypocrites.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
You want to see making it up as you go,



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
The United States has as good, if not better, record of conduct during war, than just about any nation. And if the best you can do is bring up three incidents- My Lai, Abu Gharib and this one-which I can assure you no sane American condoned-then the facts are on my side

Again, the US is the easier target and easier to get the uneducated masses worked up over.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
The problem for the rest of us is that the US makes up its own rules about what is right. It listens to no other authority.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 17):
To a certain degree, this does confirm the worst assumptions many have about those who join the military

That is just so much horse-pucky I just don't know where to begin with that.
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Klaus
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
The only "education" the military is responsible for is to train a soldier/sailor/airman/marine to do their duty competently.

That is not enough any more.

"We don't do nation building!" was about the most stupid and most self-indicting statement a modern military leadership could make.

As a consequence, the US military's primary competence has been reduced pretty much to killing and destruction (at which they're clearly unrivalled), but the second they're supposed to interface with a foreign society in earnest they turn out to be incompetent and helpless as an organisation, regardless of many individuals doing their best. But you cannot "win" a war without being capable of handling the aftermath of the violence.

The Iraq war has been lost as a consequence of exactly that failure of strategic leadership, not because the individual soldier was somehow to blame.

The idiotic concept of the war against terror has worked "well" domestically to intimidate the US population and to galvanize it to a common purpose (and basically outlawing any effective dissent, which was clearly one of its primary goals); But "on the ground" things look very differently:

Afghanistan has mostly been abandoned to fund and staff the Iraq invasion, which has led to a resurgence of the Taliban. This was actually the most war-like scenario of it all due to the exceptional situation of a national government siding with terrorists.

Iraq, on the other hand, had nothing to do with the terrorism attacking the west, but still the priority was put there, with a wave of new terrorism being created as a result and the troops ill-equipped to handle the situation.

The failure originated in the Oval Office and the one of Dick Cheney. Complaining about the reduction of the US forces is completely beside the point - the real problems were:

a) the failure to modernize and adapt the troop training to the more complex conflicts of today and the future and

b) deliberately and unnecessarily opening a can of worms for which the US troops were ill-equipped and understaffed in more than just one respect.

You can't screw up the orders from the top and then expect the troops on the ground to clean up after you. That just does not work and never has.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
"admirably" ?? under the circumstances which were known for decades ?? you mean admirable for dmmies ?

No, I mean admirably for the fact that the politicians and brass didn't put enough force-in-country to do the job right; that the politicians and brass didn't forsee an insurgency; that most of them have been honorable in their conduct, despite fools like yourself saying they're dummies.

Pretty pathetic, for something you know nothing about.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
Again, the US is the easier target and easier to get the uneducated masses worked up over.

Yeah, that's why it's pretty hypocritical for ME AVN FAN to call the soldiers "dummies" given that statement, L-188.
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AirCop
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 8:35 am

Just for information the Denver Post today (5/26) has a article on Lt Col Jeffrey Chessani USMC the commander ot the unit that is implicated in the civilian slayings.
www. denverpost.com/news/ci_3873847
 
GDB
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RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 9:06 am

Firstly, lets be clear, this is a massive victory for the terrorists, not the external Islamists as much as the home grown type, who'll stick around with nowhere else to go.
Who will be able to infiltrate supposed secure areas.
Who may have a real reason to attack.

For punishment, insult, with off the wall comments bearing no relation to fact, but to Fox style news as comment, of the Haque court, all you like.
The fact is, the (much, much worse) precedent of Mai Lai, shows a marked reluctance to punish perpertrators. Col Calley spent only a short time in jail, he's long been a free man, bit of a hero to some.
Lower rankers, were there any who spent years in prison?

This is way beyond Abu Garib, bad as that was. Even those who oppose the death penalty I suspect would not shout too much if those who ordered, pulled triggers, were executed. Life in a supermax would be better though.
But do we really think either will happen?

Hence the need for international bodies like the Hague.
British personnel could, in theory, end up there if they commited very serious war crimes.
You cannot say they do not go on real operations much, (only year since 1945 they have not been was 1968), they are the ultimate 'boots on the ground' force, in practice if not in sheer numbers.

They switch from peacekeeping/nation building to full combat as a routine (in summer 2004, long pitched battles with the Mhadi Army had in one month on average, more rounds expended by the Army than since the Korean war, a very big conventional conflict).
Yet, there is not the paranoia and hubris about the Hague here.

But there has not been any serious objection to an international war crimes courts here, would that change if circumstances changed? Hard to say, but the political decision to be ultimately subject to it was made and would be very difficult to reverse, not to mention how would raise suspicions of having something to hide.

What is so special about the US in this?
I cannot see any real world reason, aside from the aforementioned hubris and paranoia.
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
The War on Terror is a war against those that find it completely acceptable to kill unarmed civilians

You mean then that it is a war on Americans? The biggest killer of civilians is the United States - at least since Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. Still you can't understand how most in other parts of the world see this 'war' as hypocrisy considering the US kills many times as many civilians as any 'radical Islamic' terrorist or all of 'radical Islamic terrorism' ever has?

No, the 'War on Terror' is a sound bite used effectively in the first Bush term to rally American public support for aggressive overseas wars and domestic civil rights reductions, in the wake of 9/11, by appealing to nationalism and hyping an intangible, stateless, yet scary unseen enemy.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Of course, I predicted a post like yours would pop up in this thread . . . a indictment of the entire US military because of the actions of a renegade group of assholes .

Having reading difficulties? I said the leadership is indictable, not the 90% who follow policy set by their superiors.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
instead you rely on people like myself, DL021, 11Bravo, UH60, USNSealLt and others to do your bidding there

IF it were my bidding, you'd have a point. But since many of us wanted America out of Iraq years ago, that makes it our perogative to criticize the never-ending parade of errors that still being there inevitably creates - like killing unarmed civilians.

I think what you might be implying is that I'm picking on the mistakes of the military in the field in large part because I don't support the policy of being in Iraq set in Washington - and you're right. In a way, I'd agree with you that its unfair that the solider in the field has to bear, in part, some of the criticism of the Iraq war in general.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
The idiotic concept of the war against terror has worked "well" domestically to intimidate the US population

...which was its sole purpose. I'm sure Karl Rove had focus groups organized to figure out which terminology would be most effective in gaining support for their policies - and 'war on terror' was the winner.

Cairo
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
Source please. I mean beyond the ARD and ZDF reference. Otherwise, Klaus, my friend, you're just pissin' in the wind

well, I know the news-men of ARD + ZDF Klaus refers to, and would say that they ARE credible.

I assure you - I already told Klaus I'm sure what he witnessed is credible and I have no reason to doubt what he said - read the posts above on this subject and you'll see that.

Let me reprint - for the THIRD time - the jest of the conversation . . . maybe this will be the LAST time I'll have to do it so everyone can get a grasp:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
First his contention that if it were brought to the attention of the Western Media, it would have been investigated. Second he points out that ZDF and ARD had the reports. Third, they are western media outlets. Fourth, no link, or story or other source provided to support his claim that there was no investigation or that these supposed "transgressions" were brought to the attention of the US.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
The War on Terror is a war against those that find it completely acceptable to kill unarmed civilians

You mean then that it is a war on Americans? The biggest killer of civilians is the United States - at least since Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. Still you can't understand how most in other parts of the world see this 'war' as hypocrisy considering the US kills many times as many civilians as any 'radical Islamic' terrorist or all of 'radical Islamic terrorism' ever has?

Your true colors are showing through quite well here Cairo . . . are you sure you're not a terrorist symathizer?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
Still you can't understand how most in other parts of the world see this 'war' as hypocrisy considering the US kills many times as many civilians as any 'radical Islamic' terrorist or all of 'radical Islamic terrorism' ever has?

This is dead wrong it's not even worth replying to . . . Saddam killed more people during his terroristic reign than any US/UK forces could ever hope to.    We won't even include the other terrorist bastards in this world.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
IF it were my bidding, you'd have a point.

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to SATX . . . . you might have been "American" once, but you now fly the flag of Egypt and the US Military doesn't work for Egypt.

[Edited 2006-05-29 04:34:53]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
You mean then that it is a war on Americans?

Amazing and insulting that you dare take in our hospitality, since you say you're in DFW as well. And you REALLY believe that.

We do not take pleasure, no do we target civilians in this war in Iraq, nor in Afghanistan. We target scum like bin Laden, and al Zaqarwi, and those types. They do take pleasure in killing civilians-or didn't you notice that? Have you NOT noticed the universal condemnation of this action from every American on this thread, or did that slip by you.

You don't deserve the freedom of this nation. You've lived among the American people, yet you STILL believe in bullshit like this. Where do you get this crap from?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
The biggest killer of civilians is the United States - at least since Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

With that, far as I'm concerned, you're an enemy of this nation, that you so brazenly put in the same category as those mass murderers. Again, I don't want you here; no American with any decency on either side of the political spectrum wants you here. You don't deserve our hospitality; you don't deserve our respect. I have nothing but utter and total contempt for you.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 46):
Having reading difficulties? I said the leadership is indictable, not the 90% who follow policy set by their superiors.

Here's what you said, in reply 17: "this really is an indictment of America (my italics) and American leadership, not the individual soldier."

You blamed the whole damn country, did you not? Again, that is insulting, it's sickening, it's not near the truth, and such things are only said by people who want to see our way of life destroyed.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
Your true colors are showing through quite well here Cairo . . . are you sure you're not a terrorist symathizer?

He's a hypocrite. He takes advantage of the freedoms and liberties of the U.S. when he's here, then stabs the U.S. in the back when he's safely off the shore. He knows what Americans are like, yet he still perpetuates The Big Lie.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Civilians Likely Killed Without Provocation

Mon May 29, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
Saddam killed more people during his terroristic reign than any US/UK forces could ever hope to.

America armed Saddam and helped him remain in power. Do I need to reprint for the millionth time Rummy gladhanding Saddam while he was making a weapons deal?

Saddam was as much a tool of US policy, and a proxy for US middle east efforts, as the Shah of Iran, the House of Saud, and possibly the current Aghani and Iraqi regimes.

As always happens when America backs criminal nondemocratic regimes, supporting Saddam eventually backfired against America and you have the mess that exists today. In fact, the entire anger of the Arab/Muslim world towards America has as its source America's support of repressive regimes in the middle east.

The bloodshed caused by Saddam was only possibile because of the United States, so I repeat the unrefutable fact that the biggest killer of civilians today is the United States...by far...thereby once again highlighting the hypocrisy of a 'war on terror' where terror is defined as killing unarmed civilians.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
We won't even include the other terrorist bastards in this world.

I invite you to name an Islamic terrorist bastard that has killed more unarmed civilians than America.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
are you sure you're not a terrorist symathizer?

If you define terrorist as those who kill unarmed civlians in great numbers, then no, I am not a terrorist sympathizer.

You are often able to discuss things without childish personal attacks, so I am pleased to talk with you. I hope you will stick to talking about the issues and facts, not about the person making an argument.

Getting America out of Iraq and the middle east is right now the best thing that could happen to America. Criticizing the military is obviously particularly painful for you, but everything that highlights the disgrace of the US Iraqi occupation is an important effort to reach the policy goal of American withdrawal.

Cairo

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