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Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 42):
It's really very simple. The head of government holds a press conference where he announces the following "we hereby recognize Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state. From this point forward, it is the stated policy of this government to seek peaceful means of resolving our differences with Israel. Yes, it will take some time for us to get the troops in line, but I declare a unilateral cease fire, ask Israel to do likewise, and show forbearance as we struggle to get our internal house in order."

He does that, and in one moment retakes the moral high ground, and puts Israel on the defensive.

Do pigs fly? Of course they do. I'm surprised you asked.

Round up the usual suspects.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable"

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
the State-of-Israel is by its own definition THE Jewish state, and so of course a religiously defined country and NOT secularist at all

So Denmark, which is secular, is then an Atheist country??
No it is not, it is protestant, which most of northern Europe is, but there can still be other religions in it, religion is not mandatory either, law is not based solely on religion, what the hell do you think 'secular country' means by the way??

wiki definition:

Secular governments, which follow civil laws as opposed to religious instructions like the Islamic Shariah, Catholic Canon law, or Jewish Halakha, and which do not favor any particular religion.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
N1120A
Posts: 26562
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 51):
wiki definition:

Try something better than that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
There is only one way to vote. You pull the lever and the side that got the most levers pulled wins. The Palestineans voted for a terrorist organization that distributes food.

First of all, whenever Hamas got a majority, more than 40% did NOT vote for them, a factor which often is forgotten. It therefore at worst is a majority of them. Just as a majority of US-Americans voted for GWB last time. And while Hamas is fundamentalist and restrictive and reactionary, it also is in many ways a kind of welfare organisation. That you see the "terrorist" aspect is wrong in so far as this is a secondary aspect.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
So..your point is? Did they ask for this trouble or not?

No, they did NOT. Most of them hoped that Hamas would integrate into the political process, and that trouble would become REDUCED
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
no, you for instance in Switzerland, where I live, can put a whole list of 30 people, into the box, just to show that you wish them well, while knowing that they have zero chance to get into office. In many places in Britain you can "vote" liberal and clearly know that either the Tory or the Labour will get your voting-zone and go to parliament. So, to "vote" for someone you do NOT wish to have in office is quite common.

Any nation deserves the leadership their citizens pull the lever for in the voting booth.

Period.

I do not accept that the Palestinians did not realize what they were doing when voting for Hamas. Clearly Hamas was not "one of 30" that people were randomly voting for to send them a "Have a Nice Day" card. Please don't patronize my intelligence in that manner. Thank you.
International Homo of Mystery
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):
Are Hamas a detestable government when

I think you approach the problem from a wrong angle. The problem about Hamas to a wide extent is NOT what they DO, the basic problem about them is that Hamas is a clericalist fundamentalist conservative reactionary anti-freedom right-wing-party with extremist positions in regard to both other religions and in particular to the Israeli state, which in a different contest would have the fullest consent of the White House. THAT is why I DO detest them all the way. All the rest is a RESULT of all above, and NOT the reason. Please do not approach your horse from behind !
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 51):
So Denmark, which is secular, is then an Atheist country??

I have never been in your country, so that I may err, but to the best of my knowledge, Denmark does NOT identify itself as the homeland of the Scandinavian Protestant Christians ?!! But Israel indeed IS the Jewish homeland and DOES have religion-based laws restricting immigrants from getting Israeli citizenship.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable"

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 51):
secular, is then an Atheist

secularism does NOT mean atheism, it simply means to have state and religion separated.
-
and re
- ********************************************************
Secular governments, which follow civil laws as opposed to religious instructions like the Islamic Shariah, Catholic Canon law, or Jewish Halakha, and which do not favor any particular religion.
************************************************
Israel by its constitution even quite heavily DOES favour a particular religion

[Edited 2006-06-30 23:13:49]
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 54):
Period.

I do not accept that the Palestinians did not realize what they were doing when voting for Hamas. Clearly Hamas was not "one of 30" that people were randomly voting for to send them a "Have a Nice Day" card. Please don't patronize my intelligence in that manner. Thank you.

-
the only thing I do NOT is to blame YOU for the lamentable and ill-thought-about voting of the Palestinians in the last elections. What I however maintain is that Hamas only got their majority on the basis of most people expecting to see a final el-Fatah majority and therefore voting Hamas in order to reduce the el-Fatah majority as far as possible.
-
What you feal about it does not matter in so far as what the Palestinians did is common thing all over Europe. Do you remember the first round of the last French presidential elections ? when Jean-Marie LePen was almost even with Jacques Chirac ? Few French wanted to have LePen as president, they however wanted to protest. People in Switzerland have dozens of non-personal "matter-votes" per year, and when having a look at the results, you wonder whether these are the results of a madhouse. It often is protesting, even if ruining the building of schoolhouses or the procurement of new vehicles for the fireworkers. So that, whenever I might agree with you that the voting of so many Palestinians in favour of Hamas was idiotic, I do NOT agree with your arguments at all. If you now think that the US political system in spite of all criticizm has its merits, you have won your point !!
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 57):
Israel by its constitution even quite heavily DOES favour a particular religion

What??
Favour as in its judicial system??

Israel IS a secular country, period!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 59):
Israel IS a secular country, period!

-
no, it is THE Jewish state, and the Jewish homeland, and so clearly a secularist theocracy, or maybe a theocratic secularicy ! whatever, but NOT a "secular country" !
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 58):
I do NOT agree with your arguments at all.

Well you see, I'm just a simple guy. I figure that when I cast a vote, it better be for what I want, or I'm partly responsible if things get screwed.

Again, if you vote "just to send a message", you deserve what you get. That's easy to understand, I'm sure.
International Homo of Mystery
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
Again, if you vote "just to send a message", you deserve what you get. That's easy to understand, I'm sure.

well, well .......... I in the past 3 decades quite often voted in favour of something or somebody in the expectation that it/he/she would NOT win, but simply to support a protest. So that I can understand quite many Palestinians who did vote "wrongly" extremely well indeed.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
no, it is THE Jewish state, and the Jewish homeland, and so clearly a secularist theocracy, or maybe a theocratic secularicy ! whatever, but NOT a "secular country" !

ROTFL. It's not a theocracy at all. It's run by civilians, not rabbi's or other religious figures. And weren't you the one who called Iran a democracy? That's more a theocracy than Israel is, by a long shot.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 58):
I do NOT agree with your arguments at all.

Well you see, I'm just a simple guy. I figure that when I cast a vote, it better be for what I want, or I'm partly responsible if things get screwed.

That doesn't apply to wannabe nations, I guess, AW. He'll bash the U.S. for whom we elect, but let the Palestinians slide for electing terrorists.

Nice double-standard..
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jacobin777
Topic Author
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable"

Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
That would be a "cop out".

say what? I was saying "right or wrong" as an argumentative point....even if they are "wrong", they are part of the Govt. and have a voice in terms of international relations with other govts. such as Israel, Egypt, etc....if they voice their displeasure with a particular govt., it has consequences...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
You didn't answer the query, man. Do you, or do you not want Israel destroyed? Even if it means the deaths of a few million Jews? Be a man, and tell us!

I answered the query clear enough....if you want to believe something else I wrote, you are more than welcome to it....but that doesn't change the fact of what I wrote above....

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):

Yet your only answer is violence. Sheer, unadulterated violence. The Arab/Islamic people can't get past that. They can't grow beyond that concept.

hmmm..I can't recall saying that.... no 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):

What about the "human rights' abuse" of blowing up civilians, deliberatly? You always seem to brush that aside, and, it seems, you think that's "fair". Amazing.

I'm making an argument for a particular side...I've always been critical of the Arafat regime....but once again, the action of a few should not be the result of what the Israeli govt does in return.....

If a person kills a particular person of some other family, that family doesn't have a right to retaliate against the entire family of the murderer/accused..and that is EXACTLY what Israel does..

Also, on the flip side, you seem to be condoning mass/collective punishment by the action of a few.....go figure...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
.even while Hamas helps kidnap an Israeli soldier, and supports rocket attacks on Israeli territory...

You always ignore the other part of the equation.

Welcome to THI.

And as if Israel doesn't commit countless kidnappings? destroying critical infrastructure? Creates humanitarian disasters? Maybe if they stop committing such acts, there won't be suicide bombing, etc..

- Maybe the Israeli govt. could should open up the dictionary and learn what the term "hubris" means....

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
And it looks like the blind crowd that can't get their heads around the idea of complete seperation of church and state or constitutionalism because of their own twisted sense of nationalism is out in force.

 checkmark 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 42):

He does that, and in one moment retakes the moral high ground, and puts Israel on the defensive.

that would be a start...maybe Israel, being the illegal occupier should take the high ground and remove ALL illegal settlements..

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
No, I think that is the point

 checkmark 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
Yet you support a state like Israel that is founded on exactly the opposite idea? Israel can't even write itself a constitution because of its religious stance.

 checkmark ...

Quoting Windshear (Reply 48):

no it is not, care to change my mind?

..if I have the time, I'll be happy to find some links, otherwise I know you are intelligent enough to do a google check..

Quoting Windshear (Reply 48):

Oh ok I see, sounds rather noble, but if you are hinting towards Israel, what land did they occupy which belongs to others, and under what conditions? The rest of it is pure spinning, propaganda linguistic mumbo jumbo.

maybe you just don't want to believe in the truth...does it hurt that much?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
the State-of-Israel is by its own definition THE Jewish state, and so of course a religiously defined country and NOT secularist at all. That Arab-Muslim-Israelis have an increasing share in this country is strange, but only possible, as much of this very same country in many ways IS secularist. So that Israel in a way is the "quadratisation of the circle" or in other words a secularist theocratist state --- or just the contrary of this ? I mean the other way round ? you get it ?

 checkmark 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):

no, it is THE Jewish state, and the Jewish homeland, and so clearly a secularist theocracy, or maybe a theocratic secularicy ! whatever, but NOT a "secular country" !

 checkmark 

---------


""We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978."

-------

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985."

--------

""Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech."

----

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

----


"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

----------


speaking of terrorists, its nice to know that a person known as "The Butcher of
Sabra and Shatila" was elected as Prime Minister and has been called by GWB as a "man of peace".. sarcastic 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):
Falcon84 (Reply 39):
You didn't answer the query, man. Do you, or do you not want Israel destroyed? Even if it means the deaths of a few million Jews? Be a man, and tell us!


I answered the query clear enough....if you want to believe something else I wrote, you are more than welcome to it....but that doesn't change the fact of what I wrote above....

Typical non-response. Which tells me one thing-you do, but you're too chicken to say it out loud. You want Israel removed, destroyed, annihilated. That's the only answer you'll accept. Be a man and admit as much.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):

Yet your only answer is violence. Sheer, unadulterated violence. The Arab/Islamic people can't get past that. They can't grow beyond that concept.

hmmm..I can't recall saying that....

You don't have to. You offer no other alternative, and no answers.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
"Irish MP: Israel an "abhorrent and despicable" regime
Press Release, Sinn Féin, 30 June 2006



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
Yes, says it all. Sinn Fein is after all the political wing of the IRA terrorist (now turned Mafia style) organisation,

It's what the Irish MP said, it's just in a Sinn Fein press release, they had nothing to do with the statement

Quoting Windshear (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
it is NOT secular...the Israeli govt. has created as quasi-apartheid state based on ideologies/religion/race.



Rubbish! Utter and stinky smelly propaganda'd rubbish!

So how come a israeli woman married to a palestinian can't live in israel, they have to live in palestinia.
That's what i read in The Times magazine.

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:17 am

perhaps this is narrowminded or whatever, but who gives a rats a** what Ireland thinks? Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I can't think of any reason Ireland has any reason to say anything on the matter (anymore so than the other 200 something countries there are in the world that is). It's like the Ivory Coast commenting on N. Korea's missiles. WHY SHOULD THEY CARE!?!?!!?
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
well, I would say it is NOT a secular country. To me it is THE "Jewish" country by self-definition. That the Arab-Muslim share of the Israeli population is happily growing and that sizeable towns like Akko are inside "Israel-proper" and are Arab towns in this context is very strange. But encouraging in so far as happily proving that an Arab-Israeli living-together, or at least a peaceful co-existence IS possible

Anyone who travels to Israel can easily verify it's a secular country. The notion that Israel is a theocracy is laughable. And yes, Arab-Israeli co-existence is also very nice to see within Israel proper. It is interesting that Israeli-Arabs almost unanimously reject any plan to become future citizens of a Palestinian state. They are quite comfortable living as minority Arabs in a Jewish state...

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 43):
Is it just me, or is it a bit odd that Jacobin's signature line is a quote from a jew?

Oh, he must just hate Zionists, blah blah.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 54):
I do not accept that the Palestinians did not realize what they were doing when voting for Hamas.

Same here. They voted for Hamas and are living with the consequences. The interesting thing is that if the election were held today--with IDF troops in an offensive operation--Hamas would probably win an even bigger share of the election. It is no longer worth pretending that the majority of the Palestinian population don't support terrorist attacks against Israel....

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 66):
So how come a israeli woman married to a palestinian can't live in israel, they have to live in palestinia.
That's what i read in The Times magazine.

Why should Israel allow a citizen of a warring state to become an Israeli? It's that simple. It was not an easy decision because of the proximity of Israelis and Palestinians, but it went all the way to the highest courts and was resolved in a democratic way.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:30 am

And btw, out of curiousity, why post the comments of an Irish MP? Is this significant in any way? You would never find an American politician making such irresponsible and wild comments....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 62):
I in the past 3 decades quite often voted in favour of something or somebody in the expectation that it/he/she would NOT win, but simply to support a protest.

And you most likely wasted your vote in every instance. Do you really think for one minute that the candidate you didn't vote for and won thought, "gee, I really feel bad about all those people who voted for my opponent as a protest?"

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):
that would be a start...maybe Israel, being the illegal occupier should take the high ground and remove ALL illegal settlements..

Given that Israel hasn't sworn to eliminate all Palestinians as a national policy, they are FAR ahead of Hamas in the race to the high ground.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):
maybe Israel, being the illegal occupier should take the high ground and remove ALL illegal settlements..

They did that in Gaza and look what happened. The Palestinians have been on their own for about a year, Palestinian-Palestinian violence has led them to the brink of a civil war, Kassam rockets are launched at Israel on a daily basis, and they spent months building a tunnel into Israel with the purpose of kidnapping a soldier.

The last year has proved that Israeli occupation has very little to do with Palestinian woes....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 55):
The problem about Hamas to a wide extent is NOT what they DO, the basic problem about them is that Hamas is a clericalist fundamentalist conservative reactionary anti-freedom right-wing-party with extremist positions in regard to both other religions and in particular to the Israeli state, which in a different contest would have the fullest consent of the White House. THAT is why I DO detest them all the way. All the rest is a RESULT of all above, and NOT the reason. Please do not approach your horse from behind !

Nonsense. It's what they believe, what's in their fundamental founding document or manifesto, what they've been doing ever since they got started. Hamas is Hamas because of Hamas. You cannot reform what cannot be reformed. I do not think that such a group would ever have the assent of the white house, but what in the hell does THAT have to do with what we're arguing about? Nada-zip-zero-bupkis-zilch, that's what.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
jacobin777
Topic Author
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Given that Israel hasn't sworn to eliminate all Palestinians as a national policy, they are FAR ahead of Hamas in the race to the high ground.

since they have come into power, they have certainly toned down their rhetoric..even they know that its impossible to send "Israel to the sea"....

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 71):

They did that in Gaza and look what happened.

but they built illegal settlements other places....as well as have promised to keep other illegal settlements....
"Up the Irons!"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 73):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Given that Israel hasn't sworn to eliminate all Palestinians as a national policy, they are FAR ahead of Hamas in the race to the high ground.

since they have come into power, they have certainly toned down their rhetoric..even they know that its impossible to send "Israel to the sea"....

Isn't that nice - they have "toned down their rhetoric."

Big deal. How about renouncing their stated policy of seeking Israel's destruction?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 73):
but they built illegal settlements other places....as well as have promised to keep other illegal settlements....

Way to not respond to my comment. I write about how the events of the past year show how little the "illegal settlements" actually matter and you respond with how there are still illegal settlements. That makes a lot of sense....

And what promises to keep other illegal settlements? Ehud Olmert campaigned and won on a platform of pulling out of 85% of the West Bank. Does that sound like a promise to keep other illegal settlements to you? It's iironic that you support Palestinian policies that make it almost impossible for Israel to pull out of those "illegal settlements" in the West Bank that in your eyes fuel the conflict.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 73):
since they have come into power, they have certainly toned down their rhetoric..even they know that its impossible to send "Israel to the sea"....

If it was just the rhetoric they'd be assholes not terrorists. It's the suicide/homicide bombers, rockets, and mortars that make them the pariahs they are.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 63):
bash the U.S. for whom we elect

I did praise the USA for electing Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, I was shocked about the USA not electing Hubert H Humphrey, I found Messrs Nixon and Bush senior acceptable, but Reagan and Bush-junior "bashing-worthy".

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 72):
what in the hell does THAT have to do with what we're arguing about? Nada-zip-zero-bupkis-zilch

everything. That they are involved in terrorism is a consequence of their identity and program. And the main problem about them is not that they are involved in terrorism, the main problem is that they are stubborn fundamentalist restrictive conservative.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 73):
since they have come into power, they have certainly toned down their rhetoric..even they know that its impossible to send "Israel to the sea"....

Then why not renounce terror and violence, recognize Israel, and give the entire region a chance for a bright future?

Or, is that too much for the Arab/Islamic world to swallow?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 73):
but they built illegal settlements other places....as well as have promised to keep other illegal settlements....

 checkmark 
During the same time in which Israel pulled out 8000-9000 illegal settlers from Gaza, they sent in more than what, 12000 new settlers into the West Bank. The unilateral plan to draw Israel;s borders include almost ALL of those settlement which for the most part include the historic East Jerusalem and the more resourceful land containing water etc.
Israel simply does not want a negotiating partner to put in practice its plan and it will use or make any excuse possible to 'prove to the world' that there is no other option. And there are many who cannot be fooled by such foolish ideas. For those who will disagree with me, mark my words, IT WILL NOT BRING PEACE TO EVEN ISRAEL.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 71):
They did that in Gaza and look what happened. The Palestinians have been on their own for about a year, Palestinian-Palestinian violence has led them to the brink of a civil war, Kassam rockets are launched at Israel on a daily basis, and they spent months building a tunnel into Israel with the purpose of kidnapping a soldier.

Same old rhetoric again. It was Israel's UNILATERAL MOVE, not part of an agreement, Israel wants to destabilise the Palestinians to put its unilateral plan in practice. What the hell else could have been expected to have taken place in a so called 'free Gaza' whose borders, ports and airspace is controled by Israel. Its called The World's Biggest Prison. Israel, no wonder sold this as the proof that only the unilateral approach will work. Not eveyone is fooled by any of this.
Should Israel have the slightest interest in making a just peace with the Palestinians it will follow up on the Hamas proposal that guarantees Israel's security and recognition. That part Israel wants, what it doesn't want is what the Palestinians demand, namely the right of return of the refugees, end of ALL illegal settlements and borders of the two states that are in accordance with the international law, such as the fact that the UN recognises East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.
 
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Then why not renounce terror and violence, recognize Israel, and give the entire region a chance for a bright future?

Or, is that too much for the Arab/Islamic world to swallow?

-
to recognize Israel and get out of violence is and will be the requirement for Hamas. Hamas has been difficult for the Arab World to swallow, as Hamas in a way brought back rethorics of the past and long gone and given up unrealistic positions. They in a way revived positions of Ahmed Shukeiry who in 1968 was replaced by Yehya Hammouda, who then in 69 handed over to Yassir Arafat.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 79):
Should Israel have the slightest interest in making a just peace with the Palestinians it will follow up on the Hamas proposal that guarantees Israel's security and recognition

There is no such serious proposal on the table and you know it. If you believe it you believe in the tooth fairy. Show me the revisions to the Hamas manifesto....

And the UN's writ, like the Irish MP's writ and the Pope's Bull against the moon and King Canute's commands for the tide to go out all have one thing in common. That and two bits buys coffee. It means little in the region except for publicity purposes in places in the west where gullible folks in the west buy into this nonsense and go to Rafah and die on the mean streets where nobody's safe, doesn't matter who they are.


None of the things you propose will happen until the people your age give up on the wars of their fathers and concentrate on building up their countries. When they decide to stop marching when the next mullah preaches the same old tired shit of war and destruction and plastique explosives in vests, when they decide that tilling the earth and raising a family is far better than blowing up a bus full of civilians, and they turn their talents to farming and engineering and the mechanical arts and shopkeeping and fishing and waitressing and teaching the little ones to do the same and they become a nation of builders.....then we will see peace and then you will see what can happen when people stop fighting and start working together.

Sixty years of fighting and dying hasn't netted the Palestinians a thing, really. The Jews aren't leaving. They aren't even close, and it's less likely than it was sixty years ago. Get used to it and deal with it.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
Statement issued by Aengus Ó Snodaigh Sinn Fein member in the Irish parliament

Wow a member of a political party affiliated with the IRA supporting Hamas.......Birds of a feather I guess
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable"

Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 74):
Isn't that nice - they have "toned down their rhetoric."

Big deal. How about renouncing their stated policy of seeking Israel's destruction?

Sure, I'm for Hamas saying that...but Israel must stop its violence also..not to mention end all of its human rights/international law violations....the Palestinians are the ones who are being oppressed and are the victims..not the other way around.....

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 76):
If it was just the rhetoric they'd be assholes not terrorists. It's the suicide/homicide bombers, rockets, and mortars that make them the pariahs they are.

once again, maybe if they aren't oppressed and treated like caged animals, something good will happen on both sides...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Then why not renounce terror and violence, recognize Israel, and give the entire region a chance for a bright future?

See above....

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):

Or, is that too much for the Arab/Islamic world to swallow?

....and what does that have to do with the "Arab/Islamic world to swallow"? More inane rubbish from you.....last I recall, Jordan, Egypt, as well as Turkey had a peace accord with Israel, as well as Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf stating that "Israel should be recognised", and finally, the President of one of Israel's largest shipping companies stating on CNN that the Dubai Ports Deal should have gone through as the Emirates are good business parters to work with......

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 79):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 71):
They did that in Gaza and look what happened. The Palestinians have been on their own for about a year, Palestinian-Palestinian violence has led them to the brink of a civil war, Kassam rockets are launched at Israel on a daily basis, and they spent months building a tunnel into Israel with the purpose of kidnapping a soldier.

Same old rhetoric again. It was Israel's UNILATERAL MOVE, not part of an agreement, Israel wants to destabilise the Palestinians to put its unilateral plan in practice. What the hell else could have been expected to have taken place in a so called 'free Gaza' whose borders, ports and airspace is controled by Israel. Its called The World's Biggest Prison. Israel, no wonder sold this as the proof that only the unilateral approach will work. Not eveyone is fooled by any of this.
Should Israel have the slightest interest in making a just peace with the Palestinians it will follow up on the Hamas proposal that guarantees Israel's security and recognition. That part Israel wants, what it doesn't want is what the Palestinians demand, namely the right of return of the refugees, end of ALL illegal settlements and borders of the two states that are in accordance with the international law, such as the fact that the UN recognises East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark ..for some reason, people here think that Israel is giving up its entire country for "safety"..yet the dealings are nothing short of a farce....and that is why the situation is still where it is at today....

I've met enough Palestinians who have personally witnessed and endured the brutality of the "occupiers"....
"Up the Irons!"
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 83):
.and what does that have to do with the "Arab/Islamic world to swallow"? More inane rubbish from you.....last I recall, Jordan, Egypt, as well as Turkey had a peace accord with Israel, as well as Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf stating that "Israel should be recognised", and finally, the President of one of Israel's largest shipping companies stating on CNN that the Dubai Ports Deal should have gone through as the Emirates are good business parters to work with......

You are simply reinforcing the point that Falcon and I are trying to make. Israel gets along quite well with Arabs and Moslems as long as we're talking about countries and groups that aren't actively trying to destroy their country. It's not complicated.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:56 pm

What Israel is doing is abhorrent and despicable, so is what hamas do - therefore they deserve each other.

As I've said before, leave them to kill each other off, and let the rest of us keep living our lives. Cut outside financial & political aid for both and don't give them the attention they want - hell they're both more of an attention whore for media publicity than Paris Hilton.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
edka
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
thanks for your valuable input..

No problem

Let me tell you this... All you ever do is bitch about Israel, you think you know all the rights and wrongs (quite one sided, not surprisingly), but really you don't post anything valuable, when it comes to Israel/Palestinians. Why don't you go to "what i would like to see in the Middle East" thread and post something constructive there? maybe you just don't have anything constructive to post, apart from your usual whining bs.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 83):
I've met enough Palestinians who have personally witnessed and endured the brutality of the "occupiers"....

i'm sure you did. it's a shame that you have never met a family whose child has been blown up on the bus going to scholl in Jerusalem.

Jacobin, if Israel/Palestine issue will ever get solved (and i really hope that one day it will, for the sake of both people), it will not be done by people like you.

Thank you.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 79):
Same old rhetoric again. It was Israel's UNILATERAL MOVE, not part of an agreement, Israel wants to destabilise the Palestinians to put its unilateral plan in practice. What the hell else could have been expected to have taken place in a so called 'free Gaza' whose borders, ports and airspace is controled by Israel. Its called The World's Biggest Prison. Israel, no wonder sold this as the proof that only the unilateral approach will work. Not eveyone is fooled by any of this.
Should Israel have the slightest interest in making a just peace with the Palestinians it will follow up on the Hamas proposal that guarantees Israel's security and recognition. That part Israel wants, what it doesn't want is what the Palestinians demand, namely the right of return of the refugees, end of ALL illegal settlements and borders of the two states that are in accordance with the international law, such as the fact that you UN recognises East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

Nice rant...Only one sentence of that whole thing responded to my comment, which was:"What the hell else could have been expected to have taken place in a so called 'free Gaza' whose borders, ports and airspace is controled by Israel. "

Duh, Israel and Egypt are on Gaza's border. You expect Israel NOT to secure their border?!!!! And of course the ports and airspace is controlled by Israel; if it weren't they would bring in arms and weapons. But anyway, Gaza is for the most part free and you still complain. It just goes to prove that your interest isn't what is better for the Palestinians--it is what weakens Israel.

I honestly do not know what you expect...If Israel pulling out of Gaza wasn't enough for you there, what DO you want??????
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jacobin777
Topic Author
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable"

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 86):

Let me tell you this... All you ever do is bitch about Israel, you think you know all the rights and wrongs (quite one sided, not surprisingly), but really you don't post anything valuable, when it comes to Israel/Palestinians. Why don't you go to "what i would like to see in the Middle East" thread and post something constructive there? maybe you just don't have anything constructive to post, apart from your usual whining bs.

all I do is hear people bitch and complain about Arabs/Muslims and Palestinians (given the amount of threads and responses)...

it seems like as if criticising Israel here on A.net is taboo

Quoting EDKA (Reply 86):

Jacobin, if Israel/Palestine issue will ever get solved (and i really hope that one day it will, for the sake of both people), it will not be done by people like you.

sure..whatever...I'm sure brutal butchers such as Sharon were elected to solve the conflict too...afterall, he is a "man of peace".. sarcastic 

and for the record..I'm all up for resolving the issues....but not in the way as it is right now...
"Up the Irons!"
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 88):
it seems like as if criticising Israel here on A.net is taboo

Certainly not, but if you were really about peace you'd be criticizing Hamas before Israel. Perhaps you have condemned random rocket attacks, recruiting of teenage boys and girls to kill themselves and random Israelis (including non Jewish btw) but I certainly haven't noticed it among your blind and total criticism of Israel.

I'll remind you that this current episode was precipitated by Hamas, not Israel. Israel gave several days of strong warnings before acting as well. It's really a shame too because 6 months ago it seemed like there really was a chance of finally ending the whole mess. Of course we now have Hamas implementing the old Arafat style policies with a vengeance. They want power, pure and simple, and the source of their power is hatred. Peace is not what they want.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
Dougloid
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 89):
Peace is not what they want.

I b'lieve you're right. This is proof positive that you need to be real careful what you wish for (or vote for, for that matter) because your guys might win, and then you get Jesse Ventura and all such similar results.

It says in the Book, by their fruits ye shall know them. You can't bring forth sweet water from a bitter fountain. So it is with Hamas.

There's no peace to be made with militant Islam, and little prospect that the people of the region are ready to beat their swords into plowshares-it hasn't been so since the days of the Barbary pirates and before. No reason to think it'll change this time and there's no reason to go to the mean streets of Rafah with a collection of black umbrellas.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 88):
and for the record..I'm all up for resolving the issues....but not in the way as it is right now...

How about nuke it all and start over?

That would be far less costly than the slow suicidal attacks that will plague the next 100 years.

Let me ask then, since you have such a determined stance against Israel...how exactly would you solve it?
Crye me a river
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
Irish MP:

No such thing . . . unless you're talking about MP in the UK (or anywhere else there are MPs) who happens to be Irish.

Should be "Irish TD".
 
N1120A
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 59):
Israel IS a secular country, period!

No it isn't. It shows its religious identity straight up on its flag, let alone in its stance toward the world. Canada is a secular country. Germany is a secular country. The United States is, believe it or not, a secular country with an atheist constitution. Israel is none of the above

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 69):
You would never find an American politician making such irresponsible and wild comments....

Come now Reece, you know better than that. Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond, George Bush...

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 89):
Perhaps you have condemned random rocket attacks, recruiting of teenage boys and girls to kill themselves

Actually, that sounds a lot like the Israeli Offensive Force

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 91):
How about nuke it all and start over?

Yeah, and we could say the same thing about Texas. Nuking anything other than a frozen pizza is unacceptable
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
Neutral? Sinn Fein..neutral? Who are you trying to kid? It's the mouthpiece for a neutered terrorist organization that still calls for

Well said.

This being the same party who decided to hang Palestinian flags alongside Irish Tricolor flags across large parts of Belfast. A party who actively dealt with Libya despite international outrage (years ago), the party who recently had 4 members arrested for training terrorsits in Colombia. The party whose leading members have all been proven as active terrorsits. WHo have killed an maimed. Yes - thats Sinn fein all right.

SinnFein are evil murdering terrorists - just like Mr Bin Laden. No better.

7L
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
NWA742
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
So I'm officially re-starting the Terrorist Huggers International.

Excellent. It's been needed.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
hence my "neutral" comment...regardless...they are representatives of the Irish Govt...

WHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!! Since when did Sinn Féin represent or even speak for the Irish Government?
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 7):
Really? Well what's your opinion of a country that steals the land and kills the civilians of it's neighbour? You're against suicide bombings but don't have a problem with Israel using war planes and tanks against refugee camps?

Hoo boy ! I can see this is "one of those" threads ! Cedarjet, in case no one has mentioned it yet, Sinn Fein would describe YOUR country that way...and HAS !

What earthly importance do the rantings of a Left wing extremist have ?
You do remember Sinn Fein is the political mouthpiece for the IRA-an organization that is no stranger to the use of terror ?
gene
 
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 89):

Certainly not, but if you were really about peace you'd be criticizing Hamas before Israel. Perhaps you have condemned random rocket attacks, recruiting of teenage boys and girls to kill themselves and random Israelis (including non Jewish btw) but I certainly haven't noticed it among your blind and total criticism of Israel.

As I said...how about Israel taking the "high road" since they are the "occupiers" and "invaders"..how about them stop talking about peace while continuously building illegal settlements, return back the people who they have kidnapped illegally and stop collective punishment....

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 90):
There's no peace to be made with militant Islam, and little prospect that the people of the region are ready to beat their swords into plowshares-it hasn't been so since the days of the Barbary pirates and before. No reason to think it'll change this time and there's no reason to go to the mean streets of Rafah with a collection of black umbrellas.

there is no peace with a goverment which consistently and defiantly violates human rights as well as international law.....

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 91):

How about nuke it all and start over?

That would be far less costly than the slow suicidal attacks that will plague the next 100 years.

Let me ask then, since you have such a determined stance against Israel...how exactly would you solve it?

great....I'm glad people like you aren't in power.... sarcastic 

I've mentioned many of the conditions above..you can go back and read it and know where I think a good start would be....

Quoting N1120A (Reply 93):
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 89):
Perhaps you have condemned random rocket attacks, recruiting of teenage boys and girls to kill themselves

Actually, that sounds a lot like the Israeli Offensive Force

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Irish MP: Israel An "Abhorrent And Despicable" Regime

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 99):
As I said...how about Israel taking the "high road" since they are the "occupiers" and "invaders"..how about them stop talking about peace while continuously building illegal settlements, return back the people who they have kidnapped illegally and stop collective punishment....

What do you call a unilateral pullout from Gaza?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 93):
Actually, that sounds a lot like the Israeli Offensive Force

You're actually comparing a real professional and uniformed military unfavorably in comparison to strapping nails and explosives to 15 year olds and asking them to blow themselves up? That's sad.
Where are all of my respected members going?

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