Falcon84
Topic Author
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Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:26 am

At least that what Time is saying. And I think they're right on the mark.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/09/coverstory.tm.tm/index.html

Unfortunately, it lasted about 3 years too long. But I am glad it is gone.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirCop
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I think they're right on the mark.

My feeling also. I guessing the administration also knows that America can't go at it alone anymore, and as for North Korea, the US is no longer the power in the region, that title goes to China. Since China owns so much of America's debt, we will have to listen to them or just let them lead in certain situations, which might be a good thing, since our resources are being stretch thin.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:49 am

Maybe the Administration see the Vandals nearing Rome ...
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:35 am

My thoughts exactly - as I was was reading the latest Administration response to the N. Korea and Iran issues, I could not help but think how different things are now than 3 years ago, going into Iraq.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:35 am

Well Time Magazine has spoken. Let's all bow down to the experts of political reporting.  Yeah sure

Now having said that, Presidents and their administrations grow and change. They all do. After all, eight years is a long time in the political fast pace world we live in today. So, Bush has adjusted how he thinks and speaks? I would say that that would make a lot of people happy. The question is, will these same people acknowledge the change and transformation in thought, style, and policy? I think we all know the answer to that. The answer is no. People hate Bush and people just can't get beyond the hate. Doctrine dead? No way.


In the long run the President will be recognized as making some very tough decisions for his time. These decisions will over time come to be recognized as decisions that were indeed right but more importantly decisions that needed to be made. Fortunately we will not have had a President who vacillated and took no decisions.

History will judge this President as having a lot of guts and courage. It's rather too early and too easy to say that his "doctrine" is dead. Laughable in fact. Bush's core values are still very much the same and very much alive. The words may change but the core message is still very clear. So I guess those that hate Bush will keep on with their pissy thoughts.

Two more years. Enjoy the ride and keep the sleeping pills handy if you can't stand it because the Bush doctrine is in no way dead.

"Either you with us, or against us" is still a very valid phrase. You just have to interpret it a bit better. The emphasis on "you".  Smile
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
11Bravo
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
At least that what Time is saying. And I think they're right on the mark.

I think it's more than a bit grandiose to suggest that there ever was a "Bush Doctrine" per se. Usually a doctrine is characterized by a cohesive set of policies designed to accomplish specific objectives and goals through implementation of integrated policy.

George Bush is simply incapable of complex thought on that level. The last six years have been nothing more than "making it up as you go along", and the results speak for themselves. What we're seeing isn't doctrine, it's outright incompetence and profound lack of ability punctuated by sheer stupidity and arrogance.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:37 am

I'd say the Bush Doctrine is most closely associated with hard-Wilsonianism and Middle East democracy promotion. His unilateral inclinations were visible pre-9/11 but there was no "Bush Doctrine" discussed then.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
11Bravo
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
History will judge this President as having a lot of guts and courage.

No, history will judge this President as being completely in over his head.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
It's rather too early and too easy to say that his "doctrine" is dead. Laughable in fact.

You're correct, it is indeed laughable, although it sure as hell isn't very funny.

It will take years, if not decades, to fix the damage this man has done to US foreign policy and our standing and reputation in the world.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
"Either you with us, or against us" is still a very valid phrase.

I have never really liked that phrase. There should be more than two options. What if a nation disagrees with American policy yet wishes to remain neutral? Are they to be labelled an "enemy" simply because they do not agree? What if they choose not to help out in the "war on terra", does that mean they deserve to be labelled as "with the terrorists"?

I think GWB should have used Jesus' phrase instead....."Those who are not against us are for us".
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
Now having said that, Presidents and their administrations grow and change.

Yeah, and it only took SIX YEARS for this one to figure out how fucked up it's policy in this regard was.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
So, Bush has adjusted how he thinks and speaks?

Wrong. His failures made him adjust it.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
In the long run the President will be recognized as making some very tough decisions for his time.

And it will be painfully recognized that the majority of his decisions were dead wrong, and hurt this nation, not helped it.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
These decisions will over time come to be recognized as decisions that were indeed right but more importantly decisions that needed to be made.

I'm sure it's heartening, CW, to Mr. Bush, to see that not everyone has opened their eyes to the magnitude of the disaster that is Iraq, and that is his ultra-secretive, paranoid and arrogant administration. Nice to see there's a few true believers left for this failed president to count on.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
History will judge this President as having a lot of guts and courage.

They'll judge him, I suspect, as being in the lower 50% of all president, because he couldn't keep his gun in his holster when he needed to, and that he took this nation on an ill-advised adventure that so badly damaged it's standing and reputation that it could take decades to repair.

Other than that, he's been just a wonderful president. (hope you can hear the sarcasm just dripping from that one)
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

I read about this today and figured someone would post it on here. Low and behold, I also figured who would be the one to post it.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
ltbewr
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:23 pm

The 'Bush Doctrine' is largely a failure. His and his neo-con supporters (especially V.P. Chenny) self-rightous, arrogant, 'all hat and no cattle' cowboy attitudes in international policy while popular with many voters who despise the world outside the USA offended many in the world. His reference to the 'Axis of Evil', showed his ignorance and disrespect of the world. This is a person whom has rarely traveled outside the USA, and dislikes any who don't buy into his questionable world view. His perscution of the the war in Iraq, his sword rattleing over Iran, his ignoring North Korea, his total support of Israel without any seeming questions have come back to haunt him. Now he has been humbled, weakened, become disrespected by many other world leaders at a great cost to the USA and it's citizens. Add to this his domestic policies that only seem to help the rich with deep tax cuts and starving programs for the poor and middle class and he is going to be considered a bad President. He has no other direction to go but to take a big helping of humble pie and hope he doens't make things worse.
 
Klaus
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:29 pm

It's dead? Well, there's a shocker!  crazy 

Body parts falling off left and right through the past months and years already just might have given a hint that something was afoot, even though Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continued nudging it from time to time and were speaking out of the corner of their mouths...

I guess the stench finally gave it away...!  mischievous 

They should join a second-rate theater troupe - they would feel just at home.

Yeah, that was sarcasm!
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:50 pm

Where did this notion come from that GWB is some kinda cowboy? He's from Maine for goodness sake. All that hooey over at Crawford might as well be a movie set.....jeeesh. He and Laura bought that place just before he ran for Governor of Texas.
 
airwave
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 8):
Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
"Either you with us, or against us" is still a very valid phrase.

I have never really liked that phrase. There should be more than two options. What if a nation disagrees with American policy yet wishes to remain neutral? Are they to be labelled an "enemy" simply because they do not agree?

I must quote that paragon of interstellar...whatever, Zapp Brannigan, on this one; "What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" And again: "I hate these filthy neutrals, Kif! With enemies, you know where they stand, but with neutrals—who knows. It sickens me."  Wink

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
They'll judge him, I suspect, as being in the lower 50% of all president

So who's the prez that gets the boost up in the rankings then?  scratchchin  I'll go with Jackson.  Wink

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 7):
It will take years, if not decades, to fix the damage this man has done to US foreign policy and our standing and reputation in the world.

Who cares? By then, somebody else will become the international pariah. Hell, if the US were to regain an isolationistic tendancy once again, great. Who says we have to be the world police or the number one or whatever?

I think it's both preposterous and presumtuous to say how history will judge. Besides, who cares? In fifty years, the world will largely be a different place, as today is from 1956. While there have been mistakes made and successes forged, the ripple will eventually still.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of kings! Look on my works, ye mighty and dispair."


Airwave  eyebrow 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
andessmf
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:55 pm

Laughable responses from both sides here, with frankly all you simply not having read your history sufficiently enough to be able to draw parallels between the past, present and future.

Lets take a figure from history, who is now widely considered to be the greatest British man to have lived. Let me give you some selected quotes:

"Still held in great affection by the British people, Sir Winston Churchill was voted the Greatest-Ever Briton in the 2002 BBC poll the 100 Greatest Britons."

"Churchill did badly at Harrow, regularly being punished for poor work and lack of effort. He had an independent, rebellious nature and he failed to achieve much academically"

"Soon, though, his attention was drawn to the rise of Adolf Hitler and the dangers of Germany's rearmament. For a time he was a lone voice calling on Britain to strengthen itself to counter the belligerence of Germany. Churchill was a fierce critic of Neville Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler"

"Churchill's greatest achievement was that he refused to capitulate when defeat by Germany was a strong possibility and he remained a strong opponent of any negotiations with Germany. Few others in the Cabinet had this degree of resolve"

"Although the importance of Churchill's role in World War II was undeniable, he had many enemies in his own country. His expressed contempt for a number of popular ideas..."

"Immediately following the close of the war in Europe, Churchill was heavily defeated in the 1945 election by Clement Attlee and the Labour Party."

We can talk about how horrible a president GWB has been, but the example above notes how Churchill also shared some of the same fate. And if you do research on Lincoln, he was exceedingly hated by most of his contemporaries. The lesson, the GWB period will not be judged by us, the results will be seen decades from now. And if human history repeats itself, some of the most hated individuals at at point of time were later acknowledged to have made the correct decisions for the time.
 
aloges
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 4):
Now having said that, Presidents and their administrations grow and change. They all do. After all, eight years is a long time in the political fast pace world we live in today. So, Bush has adjusted how he thinks and speaks?

How things do really change... I still remember people in this forum applauding Bush for his "firm stance" and lambasting Kerry as a "flip-flopper". And now all of a sudden the Bush admin changes and it's a good thing.

La-dee-dah. The flag turns in the wind, not the other way around.  sarcastic 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 6):
His unilateral inclinations were visible pre-9/11

I find it strange that the actual article disputes you.....

"Bush came to office pledging to focus on domestic issues and pursue a "humble" foreign policy that would avoid the entanglements of the Bill Clinton years."

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
I read about this today and figured someone would post it on here. Low and behold, I also figured who would be the one to post it.

 checkmark  Never one to miss the smallest opportunity to complain about the President.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
Add to this his domestic policies that only seem to help the rich with deep tax cuts and starving programs for the poor and middle class

I'd love to see some back up sources on that. Another thread has a source citing that the tax reciepts this year alone are up over three times what was predicted. Enough that it is prompting a review of just how large the deficit will be. And furthermore those taxes are coming from, "gasp", corps and the wealthy!!! Spending across the board is up. Lets see where you got this notion from.

As I've said repeatedly, for some no matter what this administration does, it will never be enough. When the democrats regain power in the new year, these same people will be the first to be hollering for an impeachment.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:37 pm

 rotfl 

Saying that this is somehow like a flip-flop such as we had from a former Presidential candidate is quite amusing. Funny stuff! Just like having Gore saying he invented the Internet. In other words red flag B.S. in regards to a flip-flop. End of that story.

Bush still has a very firm and fundamental stance on policy so don’t even go there with that ludicrous Kerry analogy. Again, end of that story.

The only thing that is changing is the verbiage and the increase of a "touchy feely" feeling some in other parts of the world would have like to have seen from day one. After 3000 Americans were killed, the touchy feely thing went out the door. Look back at Bush and his language before and prior to 9/11. SO cut the B.S. here about flip flop. Again, for the third time, end of that story.

Accept the policy and live with the results.

One more thing, U.S. foreign policy has been very, very consistent over the past 25 years. The only thing that has changed is the messenger and the type of stick he carries. Some of you have not been able to figure that out. Bush has spoken loudly and has carried a very big stick. The guy has a lot of guts and put it all on the line. ALL ON THE LINE. I like that!

Two more years is a longtime. Think you can handle it girls???

I can, and will. My hope is that whoever becomes President after Bush is that they have an even harder line than we have seen from Bush. I can only wait to see the squirming form overseas and in particular liberal corners in the U.S. I should be so blessed!!!!!

Heh heh and HA HA! Have a wonderful night dreaming about the final two L O O O O O O O O N G years!
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
aloges
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
After 3000 Americans were killed

Nice of you to ignore the victims from the other several dozen countries. Exactly what I expected!  yes 

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Accept the policy

never

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Think you can handle it girls???

I take it you're sexually confused?

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Heh heh and HA HA!

Oh the wealth of information we can extract from your posts! As always!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 13):
Where did this notion come from that GWB is some kinda cowboy? He's from Maine for goodness sake. All that hooey over at Crawford might as well be a movie set.....jeeesh. He and Laura bought that place just before he ran for Governor of Texas.

And he spends more freaking time there than in the White House. Stop such lame excuses for the man. Maybe he is from Maine, but he sure wasn't the governor there, was he? He's a Texan, and a cowboy at that.

Quoting Airwave (Reply 14):
So who's the prez that gets the boost up in the rankings then? I'll go with Jackson.

To the fury of most conservatives, the one he'll be compared with the most, is one he succeeded. And the one he succeeded will, in the end, look far, far better than Mr. Bush.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Bush still has a very firm and fundamental stance on policy so don’t even go there with that ludicrous Kerry analogy. Again, end of that story.

He doesn't have a firm grip on anything, CH. He wanted Iraq from the time he took office, and they STILL fucked it up. His answer domestically to everything is "cut taxes", even during a war, and even with skyrocketing deficits. He hides everything he does behind a veil of secrecy that would make the KGB blush; he only connects with his hard-core supporters anymore, like you, who are either to afraid or too blind to critisize him.

He lost the firm, fundamental stance about a year after 9/11, and it's never returned.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Accept the policy and live with the results.

Not on your life. I will dog the man from here till my final days for his policy, and the results. Those who just meekly accept it, like I said, are the blind loy alists, who won't question anything.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
One more thing, U.S. foreign policy has been very, very consistent over the past 25 years. The only thing that has changed is the messenger and the type of stick he carries.

It's usually very consistent, but Mr. Bush totally changed it, 180 degrees. He went from the traditional American stance of "let the bad guy make the idiotic move", to this failed policy of pre-emptive action, even if the facts don't support you. Dick Cheney calls it his "1 percent doctrine". Which means that even if there's a miniscule chance that a nation might be thinking of hitting you, and even if the intel doesn't support an attack, you attack anyway.

That's idiotic, fascist thinking. That basically says you have a right to do anything to the world, without any justification.

This guy went from carrying a big stick to carring the whole friggin' tree. And what has it got us: a guerilla insurgency in Iraq; a burgeoning insurgency in Afghanistan; a "fuck you" attitude from both Iran and the DRPK, who either have nukes, or are developing them; the scorn and loathing from more than half the world.

And you SUPPORT such nonsense? It hasn't helped this country at all, and has hurt it immensely. And you still blindly, unquestionly support it? Unbelievable.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
I can, and will. My hope is that whoever becomes President after Bush is that they have an even harder line than we have seen from Bush.

Well, you'll be disappointed, because be he a Democrat or Republican, he'll go back to what HAS worked for us since the end of the Cold War: getting our friends and allies on board; seeking a non-violent solution first, but making sure the opposition knows it's backed up with deadly force.

That's what his father did with Kuwait in '91, and it brought most of the world to our side. His son forgot that fact, and has made us the scorn of the planet, because of his arrogant, unilateral ways.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Pope
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
paranoid

Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
We can talk about how horrible a president GWB has been, but the example above notes how Churchill also shared some of the same fate

I wonder how you managed to put GWB and Churchill in the same sentence. GWB could only dream of being half the politician or statesman that Churchill was. Nonetheless, circumstances then and now were very different - or did you see Saddam Hussein mounting up an invasion on the shores of the Bahamas or Cuba?

Not to forget, Churchill was acclaimed and revered, held as a true hero of the British people, but voted out of the government shortly after the war - exactly because his policies were then out of touch with what the UK was aspiring. Even a great leader has faults and fails that may terminate his/her political career.

Now you can use my last sentence and change "great leader" for GWB...

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
rjpieces
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 17):
I find it strange that the actual article disputes you.....

"Bush came to office pledging to focus on domestic issues and pursue a "humble" foreign policy that would avoid the entanglements of the Bill Clinton years."

What you quoted has nothing to do with what I posted.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
paranoid

Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

How do you figure, Pope? I'm not the one hiding everthing he does behind a cloak of secrecy like this president and this vice president? This is the most paranoid and secretive admnistration we've had in our history. This guy hides just about everything from the American people.

I don't see where it's the pot calling the kettle black, simply because you support this guy at every turn, and I happen to disagree.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
What you quoted has nothing to do with what I posted.

??????????

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 6):
His unilateral inclinations were visible pre-9/11 but there was no "Bush Doctrine" discussed then.

Want to rephrase that?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
His reference to the 'Axis of Evil', showed his ignorance and disrespect of the world.

Like Ronald Reagan did when he portrayed the Soviet Union as the 'focus of evil' and the "evil empire". Of course, the Soviet Union does not exist anymore and we do, so who was right? You have to be pretty good to predict history before it happens. Based on your posts, you're not that good.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
I'm not the one hiding everthing he does behind a cloak of secrecy like this president and this vice president?

So there is no such thing as "national security" in your view, unless of course it's fully vetted in public and then allowed to go secret?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
This is the most paranoid and secretive admnistration we've had in our history.

You should read about the CIA and FBI from say 1950 to 1973 at different Presidents behests. What this President is doing in now way approaches what happened during that period.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 25):
So there is no such thing as "national security" in your view, unless of course it's fully vetted in public and then allowed to go secret?

Sure there is. Be he hides everything behind that lable, since 9/11. Even if it's minutes of talking domestic energy policy with the energy companies. Everything is hidden behind that. Doesn't that make you a little suspicious? It does me.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 25):
You should read about the CIA and FBI from say 1950 to 1973 at different Presidents behests.

I have. You're talking about two departments. I'm talking about the actual administration.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
We can talk about how horrible a president GWB has been, but the example above notes how Churchill also shared some of the same fate.

Andes -- One can easily get goose bumps listening to Churchill vowing to fight the enemy by land, sea, and air (paraphrasing here)...there's no question the guy was bright and a gifted public speaker, regardless of his academic problems.

But listen to GWB, asked about global warming, sputter about how "the globe is warming" and it's clear to see that the Republicans could have done much better in terms of nominating someone intelligent.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 25):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
His reference to the 'Axis of Evil', showed his ignorance and disrespect of the world.

Like Ronald Reagan did when he portrayed the Soviet Union as the 'focus of evil' and the "evil empire".

Bush was making a feeble attempt to tap into that old Reagan charm with the whole "Axis" package; and he was hopelessly out of his league. At least Reagan followed through on his policy vision. I wasn't aware that "Axis" members like North Korea could get a couple of free passes when testing missiles that could hit Japan and Alaska...

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 18):
Bush still has a very firm and fundamental stance on policy so don’t even go there with that ludicrous Kerry analogy. Again, end of that story.

Bush is a self-professed hater of "professor types" (i.e. intellectuals who think critically), and a self-proclaimed "gut" type of guy who reads "people" instead of books. Going with your gut might get you through the weekend, but I suspect that it won't get you through eight years of critical policy-making.

It's beyond me how he could be considered as having a "firm and fundamental" stance on any important foreign policy matters...he vowed to bring in UBL "dead or alive" and then later demurred, saying that the War on Terror wasn't about just "one man." He masterfully surfed in on post- September 11th public sensibilities to accomplish his pet project of removing Sadam Husayn from power by any means necessary -- even if it meant creating a fictitious back story.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 27):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
We can talk about how horrible a president GWB has been, but the example above notes how Churchill also shared some of the same fate.

Andes -- One can easily get goose bumps listening to Churchill vowing to fight the enemy by land, sea, and air (paraphrasing here)...there's no question the guy was bright and a gifted public speaker, regardless of his academic problems.

And one big difference: Churchill's Britian was literally facing the fight for their independence, facing the Germans all but alone. Bush started a war under dubious circumstances, that ended up being completely false. This war was never about our freedom as Americans; our nation was never on the line as far as this war was concerned. It was a vendetta; it was a political grab at immortality; it was giving into fear and paranoia, egged on by a bunch of uber-conservatives, who think the world should be our own personal toy to play with and do what we want with.
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clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
This guy hides just about everything from the American people.

Would you care to list those allegedly hidden "everythings"? Sorry but you have a bit of paranoia yourself.

Two more years. I think all you can do is sit back and deal with it by posting your rants on airliners.net.

Now that's something we NEED to be paranoid about!  biggrin 
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
This war was never about our freedom as Americans; our nation was never on the line as far as this war was concerned. It was a vendetta; it was a political grab at immortality; it was giving into fear and paranoia, egged on by a bunch of uber-conservatives, who think the world should be our own personal toy to play with and do what we want with.

Case in point on paranoia. In fact a perfect example. Care to explain the "political grab at immortality"? That's ridiculous. Face it Falcon, even if Bush today were to back track to being the person you "want" him to be you would still find fault with the man. In other words, we'll write you off.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
Even if it's minutes of talking domestic energy policy with the energy companies. Everything is hidden behind that. Doesn't that make you a little suspicious? It does me.

The previous administration did the same with health care. I'm sure if we did some checking we'd find that other administrations had also had closed door meetings. This has been explained by Clinton and Bush as the only way to get honest and unabashed ideas from people in the industry. They would never be as open if they knew that their every word would then be taken, twisted, and used against them by idiots in the press. It is one of the few things I agree with former President Clinton whole heartily about.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
You're talking about two departments. I'm talking about the actual administration.

And I'm talking multiple administrations.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 27):
Bush was making a feeble attempt to tap into that old Reagan charm with the whole "Axis" package; and he was hopelessly out of his league. At least Reagan followed through on his policy vision. I wasn't aware that "Axis" members like North Korea could get a couple of free passes when testing missiles that could hit Japan and Alaska...

Help me remember, how many missile as well as nuclear tests did the old Soviet Union conduct, and exactly how many times did we invade them? And exactly how is Bush not adhering to his stated policy? Are there terrorists hiding in NK? Has the NK violated over 12 UN resolutions to disarm? Has Kim Il Jung attempted to assassinate one of our former Presidents? Do we even know for a fact that they have nuclear weapons?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 30):
. Care to explain the "political grab at immortality"?

You're not that naive, CH. His grab at imortality was to prosecute a war for which he'd be remembered throughout the ages. He wanted to be held in the same regard as war presidents like Lincoln and FDR. There's no doubt in my mind that was part of the reason he went in there. The other was his family history, and the hard push after 9/11 he got from these zealots like Krystal, Pearle, Wolfwitz, and other righties who think the world should just be our playground.

As to looking for proof, I suggest you read. And, please, don't bother to bore me with "they're not objective sources". Your interpretation of "objective" is anyone who lets Bush off the hook.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,423832,00.html

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/6326

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/010403A.wh.secrecy.htm

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060109/schell

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...1,5984422.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I could go on I suppose.

Sorry, but isn't it's funny there's nothing from FOX News in here?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
He wanted to be held in the same regard as war presidents like Lincoln and FDR.

So in other words he wanted to do what is right just like Lincoln and FDR? What HE felt was right for the American people and you vilify him because of it?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
As to looking for proof, I suggest you read. And, please, don't bother to bore me with "they're not objective sources".

That's proof?  rotfl  Yeah right! That's not proof rotfl  You spin it well. Well not really. People see right through that sort of garbage. I am disapointed you can't come up with objective proof. I guess you don't have any.

Have a nice day. (And 2 more years) LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 33):
What HE felt was right for the American people and you vilify him because of it?

Sadly though, I don't think the American people ever even crossed his mind. A couple of old geezers in Saudi Arabia may have cropped up, and some VERY rich people in Texas, but as regards the average American Joe, as they as they keep jumping at shadows like obedient ballot-fodder, GWB could care less. Have you not spotted that yet ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 33):
What HE felt was right for the American people and you vilify him because of it?

You're damn right I do. As an American citizen, I still have the right to vilify the president if I think what he's doing is WRONG for the American people.

And when did this guy, or his party, EVER give a damn about "the American people". He gives a damn about three things: 1. Big Business, 2. Wealthy Americans, and 3. The military. That's it. Nothing else. Virtually every one of his policies are meant to help one of those three groups, usually at the expense of the rest of Americans.

Are you saying I don't have the right to vilify him, CH? Write to your Senator, and tell him to put in a bill that says we don't have the right to vilify George W. Bush, and see if you can get it passed, pal.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 33):
So in other words he wanted to do what is right just like Lincoln and FDR? What

Lincoln and FDR didn't start wars that didn't have shit to do with our freedom our survival as a nation. But he wants to be remembered as a great war president. Well, he'll be remembered, all right, as someone who hurt his nation beyond belief.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 22):
I wonder how you managed to put GWB and Churchill in the same sentence. GWB could only dream of being half the politician or statesman that Churchill was. Nonetheless, circumstances then and now were very different - or did you see Saddam Hussein mounting up an invasion on the shores of the Bahamas or Cuba?

Did you miss this quote?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
For a time he was a lone voice calling on Britain to strengthen itself to counter the belligerence of Germany. Churchill was a fierce critic of Neville Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler"

Sounds pretty familiar to today? Would Churchill have tried to stop Hitler before WWII started? And if so, would he be held in high regard today or be considered a warmonger.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 27):

But listen to GWB, asked about global warming, sputter about how "the globe is warming" and it's clear to see that the Republicans could have done much better in terms of nominating someone intelligent.

So now we judge a person according to the way they speak and communicate? And here we go again about his intelligence. Looking at cold, hard facts, Bush has managed to defeat a lot of Democrats, and that speaks volumes.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
This war was never about our freedom as Americans; our nation was never on the line as far as this war was concerned.

Have you even bothered to read the news coming from the other side? Have you read as to what would occur to us non-believers? Have you read about their desires about a worldwide Muslim caliphate? Did you not see placards about beheading those who speak ill of Islam? Have you not seen the news from Somalia as to not being able to dance, mix with girls, or watch the World Cup? Is this what you want here?

Sure there is only very few people openly speaking this way. But in the course of human events, very few determined people have been able to achieve very significant world changes.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 36):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
This war was never about our freedom as Americans; our nation was never on the line as far as this war was concerned.

Have you even bothered to read the news coming from the other side? Have you read as to what would occur to us non-believers? Have you read about their desires about a worldwide Muslim caliphate? Did you not see placards about beheading those who speak ill of Islam? Have you not seen the news from Somalia as to not being able to dance, mix with girls, or watch the World Cup? Is this what you want here?

Iraq had NOTHING to do with the war on terror. In fact, we introduced the war on terror to Iraq with our invasion. The place is a haven now for Al Qaeda.

Don't confuse the Iraq war, which didn't have a single thing to do with our freedom or liberty, with the war against Al Qaeda and these other Islamofascists. That is a real, deadly war, which WILL take much to accomplish. It was difficult enough. It was made more difficult because of Mr. Bush's idiocy in invading Iraq.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Help me remember

Hmm...somebody's been hanging around Ronnie too long...

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
how many missile as well as nuclear tests did the old Soviet Union conduct, and exactly how many times did we invade them?

Let me respond by raising a question myself....is there any shred of validity in attempting to compare a country that spanned 11 time zones and had a superpower-level military force to a backwater nation whose citizens are forced to eat twigs to keep from starving while their deranged leader pours money into military projects?

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
And exactly how is Bush not adhering to his stated policy?

By breezily talking up diplomacy with regard to an enigmatic adversary that deserves much more concrete attention...certainly much more attention than a family feud between the Bushes and Sadam.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Are there terrorists hiding in NK?

Two words: KAL 858. There's plenty more where those people came from.

According to the Korea Web Weekly, "N Korea operates some 30 guerrilla schools for foreigners within N Korea and some 50 foreign countries in Asia, Middle East, Africa and South America. Training classes last about 12 months and cover urban and rural guerrilla tactics, counterinsurgency, security, kidnapping, assassination, psychological warfare, communication, explosives and survival methods."

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Do we even know for a fact that they have nuclear weapons?

With apologies to Condi Rice, do we want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud?
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2595
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 27):Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
We can talk about how horrible a president GWB has been, but the example above notes how Churchill also shared some of the same fate.

Andes -- One can easily get goose bumps listening to Churchill vowing to fight the enemy by land, sea, and air (paraphrasing here)...there's no question the guy was bright and a gifted public speaker, regardless of his academic problems.
And one big difference: Churchill's Britian was literally facing the fight for their independence, facing the Germans all but alone. Bush started a war under dubious circumstances, that ended up being completely false. This war was never about our freedom as Americans; our nation was never on the line as far as this war was concerned. It was a vendetta; it was a political grab at immortality; it was giving into fear and paranoia, egged on by a bunch of uber-conservatives, who think the world should be our own personal toy to play with and do what we want with.

An honest question: Now that this cat is TOTALLY out of the bag, and we can dispense with all pretext, WMD's, "liberation of the Iraqi people", whatever; now that even US citizens overwhelmingly unhappy with the misadventure of this invasion; Why is there still a market for anti-French retoric in the US for their having opposed this war from the start (Please don't tell me Oil-for-food, or similar, as the US and its allies have just as much dirt on their hands with that one). Honest question...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Don't confuse the Iraq war, which didn't have a single thing to do with our freedom or liberty, with the war against Al Qaeda and these other Islamofascists. That is a real, deadly war, which WILL take much to accomplish. It was difficult enough. It was made more difficult because of Mr. Bush's idiocy in invading Iraq.

My position is this: Whether the invasion of Iraq was right or wrong is another discussion for another time. But what has occurred in Iraq, and again, why would be a matter for another discussion, is that Islamic Fundamentalists are using Iraq as a proxy war for their desires. If the Iraq experiment works, you will then have Islamofascists and other powers that be there concerned about their survival. Therefore, for their own sake, the Iraq experiment needs and has to fail. If Iraq fails, then their victory will be use to spread their power further and further. If Iraq becomes a success, their movement will die a slow death, but it will die.

A similar example of what could occur there is what happened to the old Soviet Union. Once a little freedom was introduced to Eastern Europe and the USSR, the situation ballooned out of control and you had the whole system come crashing down. And since then, communism for the most part has lost its allure in the world, where its no longer the concern to the Western World it used to be. If Iraq succeeds, the Iranian theocracy will show its cracks, collapse, and that will good for all of us.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
My position is this: Whether the invasion of Iraq was right or wrong is another discussion for another time. But what has occurred in Iraq, and again, why would be a matter for another discussion, is that Islamic Fundamentalists are using Iraq as a proxy war for their desires.

And who let them in there!

Secondly, the Iraq war was the test case for the Bush Doctrine. Not Afghanistan, because we were responding to 9/11. This is about the Bush Doctrine, so in essence it IS about the invasion of Iraq.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):

And who let them in there!

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5838
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RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:26 am

Bet you've been waiting years to post this in non-aviation...  yes  box 
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 42):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):

And who let them in there!

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Wrong-the United States did, by not securing the borders with Iraq's neighbors, and letting these guys flood the country.

But if you don't want to blame the U.S., who did, for a fact, cause this situation, then that's fine. Keep the blinders on.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 43):
Bet you've been waiting years to post this in non-aviation...

Just under 3 years and 4 months to be exact-since he put this catastrophic doctrine into effect on March 19, 2003 in Iraq.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
we introduced the war on terror to Iraq with our invasion

The people of Iraq were fighting a war on terror long before we got there. The victorious were those that lived a long life and died of natural causes.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 38):
is there any shred of validity in attempting to compare a country that spanned 11 time zones and had a superpower-level military force to a backwater nation whose citizens are forced to eat twigs to keep from starving while their deranged leader pours money into military projects?

Yes, it's about the weapons capability, not who's starving.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 38):
By breezily talking up diplomacy with regard to an enigmatic adversary that deserves much more concrete attention...

And who is backed up by China.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 38):
With apologies to Condi Rice, do we want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud?

Do we invade on the pretense that they have nuclear weapons? Haven't we done that once already and taken serious heat over it?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 44):
Wrong-the United States did, by not securing the borders with Iraq's neighbors,

We can't secure our own borders and yet you want how many hundreds of miles of open desert secured? Even with a full blown draft we couldn't do that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 45):
The people of Iraq were fighting a war on terror long before we got there.

It was their government. They could have, like Romania before them, thrown off the yolk of the dictator with some will, but they chose not to.

It's not up to us to topple another nations' government, simply because George Bush didn't like it. If we did it in Iraq, why aren't we overthrowing other vile dictators throughout the world? Why not?

No, we introduced Al Qaeda to Iraq, and it's simply another sad failure of this war, my friend.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 45):
We can't secure our own borders and yet you want how many hundreds of miles of open desert secured? Even with a full blown draft we couldn't do that.

Had we sent in the kind of forces necessary to occupy a nation-and securing it is a large part of occupying it, we could have secured most of it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 44):
since he put this catastrophic doctrine into effect on March 19, 2003 in Iraq.

Let it be known, that "catastrophic doctrine" is damn good employer right now.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 47):
Let it be known, that "catastrophic doctrine" is damn good employer right now.

It sure has been, for many funeral homes in Northeast Ohio.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Death Of The "Bush Doctrine"

Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
It sure has been, for many funeral homes in Northeast Ohio.

Not needed.  redflag 
Crye me a river

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