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pilotaydin
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Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:29 pm

I was in the air when we heard over the company frequency about what happened....and well, I have some thoughts that I'd like to share and hear what others have to say...

1. If Israel wants to be in the area, as the only non muslim nation, i wonder if they thought about the results of bombing Lebanon. I mean if they get their soldiers back and everything settles down...if i were a Lebanese person i think i'd be pissed that my infrastructure paid for something i really had no control over, and i could have been killed....So what will be the relation between non terrorist lebanese people Israel from now on?

2. Isn't the USA risking its own security by approving the attacks...most muslim countries were on edge with the usa anyway, so how will this make it better when Bush says a country needs to do what it needs to do... won't this create more anti us terror and basically another lap around the track?

3. I feel sorry for Lebanon and its people, they just recently marched in the streets and booted the Syrians, and now they have to go through this, i feel like they were basically punished by Israel for not filtering out a terror group...easier said than done...

4. TO the Israeli people : Why is Gaza so important to you, most of Israel's people are well off and have money and your country makes its own money, whereas palestine has money donated to them by rich arabs and can't generate its own economy...so is this about pride or a lost cause? because you can live with other Arab countries next to you, why can't you live with one more?

5. Palestine - very passionate people, so emotion probably governs their actions faster than logic, trying to save what lil they have left...I think that a massive economic package and some sort of international recognition would improve this situation...it's worked in the past...

what are your thoughts?
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:45 pm

Israel and Palestine (and maybe Lebanon), are like adolescent children. One gives the other a titty twist and the other retaliates with 10 times more force than is warranted. And so on and so on.

When "dad" hears the commotion and intervenes, the two point at each other and cry, "He did it first." Dad leaves after sending them to sit in separate chairs in the living room. Before he can get back to the kitchen, the two kids are at it again.

Now dad is really pissed. He sends them to their rooms to think about what they've done. They sulk and whine for a few minutes. Then one of them starts banging on the wall simply to annoy the other.

Well...you can figure out the rest.

Mark
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:55 pm

Pilotaydin-there are several threads open on this issue and the debate is fierce-but that's the power of this forum and many opposing arguments are being exchanged from pro- and anti intervention members.
-Fact is ,that Lebanon has today and in the pas not had the power to disarm or dismantle Hezbollah,since Syria and Iran are backing them and it would have sparked off a new civil war in Lebanon.
Israel has demanded that to happen but it is easier said than done-
The historical rhetoric of Israeli Politicians to first destroy infrastructure and means of any group and then demand that they should do their job ( see Gaza..!)
Lebanese population is not supporting Hezbollah by 70% and have now to pay for the consequences of this drama.Israeli answer to the kidnapping of two solders is clearly a pretext to get rid of Hezbollah threat in the south of Lebanon but what do you intend to do with all those Si'iah populations?
Send them elsewhere and create a new civil war in Lebanon ? Kill all of them? send them to Syria where nobody wants them ?
Israel is trying to solve a problem the usual way-by force.
Truth is that Syria and Iran are arming Hezbollah but then the West is arming Israel - aren't we?
Germany supplies beautiful Submarines with nuclear weapons-capability,USA rockets,cluster Bombs and fighter-aircraft,France electronics and the list is long...
Yesterday a German family was killed while visiting friends in Lebanon,when their house was flattened by Israeli rockets.Hezbollah has attacked a Israeli Gunboat with a telecommanded drone and four solders are missing.Its getting in crescendo and the future looks bleak.
What are the Turks saying about this situation? Your country has military links to Israel but an islamic population-quite conflictual ?

[Edited 2006-07-15 08:05:25]
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
If Israel wants to be in the area, as the only non muslim nation, i wonder if they thought about the results of bombing Lebanon.

You bet they did. You act as though being the only non-Muslim nation in the area is some sort of bad thing. Why?

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
Isn't the USA risking its own security by approving the attacks...most muslim countries were on edge with the usa anyway

No, I'd say it's enhancing it by not putting up with terrorists like Hezbollah along with putting them and others on notice that some around the world won't put up with their nonsense.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
I feel sorry for Lebanon and its people

I do too. Or at least some of them. What Lebanon failed to do was to get rid of these foreign controlled groups that put Lebanon at risk. You sleep with the devil and the devil eats you in the night. Get rid of the terrorists like Hezbollah and you would have gained some safety for your country. Now Lebanon pays the price. Too bad.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
Why is Gaza so important to you, most of Israel's people are well off and have money and your country makes its own money, whereas palestine has money donated to them by rich arabs and can't generate its own economy...so is this about pride or a lost cause? because you can live with other Arab countries next to you, why can't you live with one more?

Have you seen the size of Israel? Try looking at a map and look what surrounds it. I'd call it ones on security. Just look what Hezbollahs katyusha rockets can do.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
Palestine - very passionate people, so emotion probably governs their actions faster than logic, trying to save what little they have left...I think that a massive economic package and some sort of international recognition would improve this situation...it's worked in the past...

And you can add basically a good people too. At least some of them. You have segments of those people who want to make Israel nothing but history and who want to kick the Israelis out of Jerusalem and make it their own capitol.

Interesting perspective you have pilotaydin. You need to see the other side too and perhaps pose your quest for thoughts a little better.

In any case you asked. I thank you for asking.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
joness0154
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
1. If Israel wants to be in the area, as the only non muslim nation, i wonder if they thought about the results of bombing Lebanon. I mean if they get their soldiers back and everything settles down...if i were a Lebanese person i think i'd be pissed that my infrastructure paid for something i really had no control over, and i could have been killed....So what will be the relation between non terrorist lebanese people Israel from now on?



Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
3. I feel sorry for Lebanon and its people, they just recently marched in the streets and booted the Syrians, and now they have to go through this, i feel like they were basically punished by Israel for not filtering out a terror group...easier said than done...

Wow, talk about contradiction. If the Lebanese people can march through the streets and boot the Syrians, why can't they march through the streets and boot Hezbollah? They do have control over it!
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 3):
What Lebanon failed to do was to get rid of these foreign controlled groups that put Lebanon at risk. You sleep with the devil and the devil eats you in the night. Get rid of the terrorists like Hezbollah and you would have gained some safety for your country. Now Lebanon pays the price. Too bad.

One of the former U.S. ambassadors to Israel was on CNN tonight. Basically he said that due to the change in U.S. policy from insisting that factions such as Hamas and Hezbollah be disarmed to a policy of free elections equal democracy, we pushed for elections while these factions were still armed, and they gained seats in parliaments while still having their own military influence.

The change in U.S. policy occurred around 2001. You can figure out the rest, I'm sure.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
You can figure out the rest, I'm sure.

Yes, the rest of the majority in Lebanon needs to insist that they disarm for the greater good. They kicked they Syrians out. Why not Hezbollah too?

You never thought of that I guess.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:37 pm

Here's my thoughts on the situation. I have tried to stay out of these threads because I just wanted to post my thoughts without replying to previous posts. Here is my chance (I think).

So here goes...

- Hezbullah killed eight Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two. This is not something to be taken lightly. Hezbullah had no right to commit this act since Israel withdrew from all Lebanese land in May (?) 2000.

- Israel responded with a warning to return the soldiers or face the consequences, which was not listened to.

- Israel has responded accordingly by attacking the infrastructure that Hezbullah uses. The blockade by sea is justified to keep them from escaping. The blockade by air (the airport bombing) was justified to keep them from escaping. The bombing of the roads and bridges was justified to keep them from escaping.

- The bombing of areas deemed to be civilian targets was justified because the rockets are fired from these houses. Once Hezbullah troops take shelter in and fire from civilian targets, sadly it makes them targets for elimination. Such is the fate they bring upon themselves and those they put in harms way.

- I cannot accept the idea of a "cycle of violence". While 10 soldiers is not a strategic problem, it is unacceptable for a country not to respond to this act of violence. Consider any other democracy and its response were it to face this sort of crisis (cross border attack which kills 8 and kidnaps 2). Remember how France responded when its soldiers were killed in Africa? (don't remember what country) Their response was swift, harsh, and 100% justified. It also killed dozens upon dozens of people.

- Lebanon had six years to deal with the problem of Hezbullah. Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't put any effort towards disarming them. Even if they didn't have the power to do so, the lack of any effort shows tacit approval by the government IMO. Hezbullah is still operating from Lebanese soil and using their infrastructure. If Lebanon will not deal with an armed militia on its soil which kills Israelis, then Israel has every right to deal with it themselves.

- Sadly, Lebanese civilians are caught in the middle of this. They may dislike both Hezbullah and the Israelis. They may not have any power to stop Hezbullah guerillas from taking base in their homes and schools. But their government has the responsibility of dealing with this, and didn't. Too many civilians are dying and its not damn fair, but this leads to my next point...

- Israel has no other option. Many are criticizing Israel for their reaction, but what other option do they have? Silnce? Acceptance of this attack and not reacting? A more "restricted" response?

They have attacked Hezbullah and the infrastructure that they have used in response to a violent attack on Israeli soil. For six years nothing was done to deal with Hezbullah despite Israeli withdrawal for Lebanon. So because Hezbullah initiated this latest round of violence, I feel the response is justified. They reap what they sow.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:38 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 6):
Yes, the rest of the majority in Lebanon needs to insist that they disarm for the greater good. They kicked they Syrians out. Why not Hezbollah too?

You never thought of that I guess.

Well actually I did. Too bad our president insisted elections go through without disarming factions to give the resulting government military autonomy. That would have been too easy.
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OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:41 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 7):
Lebanon had six years to deal with the problem of Hezbullah. Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't put any effort towards disarming them.

Most people are not aware but for the past six months, the disarmament of Hezbollah was on the agenda. Top Lebanese officials were having restless meetings and calling for the disarmament.

The US and Israel are well aware of this.

It's unfair and untrue to say that we were not doing anything.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 9):
Most people are not aware but for the past six months, the disarmament of Hezbollah was on the agenda. Top Lebanese officials were having restless meetings and calling for the disarmament.

The US and Israel are well aware of this.

It's unfair and untrue to say that we were not doing anything.

True, this is unfair. I did not know this.

However, even if that is the case, Hezbullah began this crisis by kidnapping two and violently killing eight Israel soldiers. This clearly isn't "fair" either. (using the term lightly here) So clearly, they weren't disarmed yet.
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greatansett
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:47 pm

No Israel began the "crisis" back in 1948 (May 15th). This is the same "crisis".
Ron Paul 2012
 
OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 10):
True, this is unfair. I did not know this.

I promise to make time and come up with some URL links to such stories.

And as I said in the other thread, during the last elections, less than 15% of the Lebanese voted for Hezbollah. That means that they have little support. Despite this, all of Lebanon is being punished.

It's not easy to disarm them. Just think of Iraq, why the US, the sole superpower, can not disarm and control the insurgents in the country?
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:53 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 9):
Most people are not aware but for the past six months, the disarmament of Hezbollah was on the agenda. Top Lebanese officials were having restless meetings and calling for the disarmament.

Yes, but it never went beyond the stages of talk. Perhaps now this talk will become action. Action at the expense of many lives and property.

There is a lesson here somwhere.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 12):
promise to make time and come up with some URL links to such stories.

I found this for the moment. The national dialogue was still in process which included the disasarmament.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2454

It may be long but read the bits about Hezbollah only if you want to keep it short.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 12):
I promise to make time and come up with some URL links to such stories.

Thank you.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 12):
It's not easy to disarm them.

Clearly, and this is not fair for Lebanese civilians. But how is Israel supposed to respond to rockets fired from Lebanese homes that Hezbullah has taken over? They dropped leaflets and left warnings, so people had advanced notice. How is Israel supposed to respond when Hezbullah kills eight and kidnaps two soldiers?

Its not fair for both sides. And whose fault is it? You got it, Hezbullah.
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OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 15):

That's your justification for the destruction of Lebanon. Sorry but I don't buy it.

Should we punish the US for not being able to deal with the Iraq issue?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:37 pm

If the Lebanese government and military is allowing Hezbollah to "play army" and refuses to tell them to pick up their toys and go home, then I don't feel too sorry for what the IDF is doing.

Let's say a militant group in Montana decides to start kidnapping Canadian people and fire missles into Canada. You can bet that the US military will be there in a flash to round up, disarm, and haul their "play army" asses to jail. Makes sense to me.


Mark
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OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
If the Lebanese government and military is allowing Hezbollah to "play army" and refuses to tell them to pick up their toys and go home,

That's what I'm exactly saying here. We have been telling them for quite some time now to disarm and be involved only in domestic politics.

It was being done in a very delicate way to avoid secterian violence and war. But now, they'll simply argue that they have many more reasons to keep their arms. They are already making such comments like "we were warning you all along" shit.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 16):
That's your justification for the destruction of Lebanon. Sorry but I don't buy it.

First, don't make assumptions and don't put words into my mouth either. What is happening right now is nowhere near the "destruction of Lebanon". And nowhere did I ever justify such violence as "destroying Lebanon". I want you to address the abduction and killing of nearly a dozen Israeli soldiers. The fact in this current crisis is that it was initiated by this Hezbullah act of violence.

Now we both agree that Lebanon was talking about disarming Hezbullah. But what was Israel supposed to do in reaction to this attack on its soil? Ask Lebanon to deal with it? Ask the U.N. to deal with it? How is one sovereign nation supposed to react when another sovereign nation attacks it? Whether or not the Lebanese people or government support Hezbullah, the attack came from Lebanese soil and Hezbullah uses the Lebanese infrastructure (whether its in Beirut or South Lebanon).

Now Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago precisely so that they wouldn't have to deal with attacks like this anymore. They understood that as long as they were the occupier, the world and the U.N. would find it any attacks against its land and troops justified. Now that they are not, the Hezbullah attack into Israel was totally unjustified on grounds of international and U.N. law.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 16):
Should we punish the US for not being able to deal with the Iraq issue?

This is a bad analogy. The American Army is occupying Iraq, the Israeli army isn't occupying Lebanon. These are different situations.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 18):
But now, they'll simply argue that they have many more reasons to keep their arms. They are already making such comments like "we were warning you all along" shit.

Sounds like the Lebanese government and military can't tip-toe through the flower bed anymore. Whatever happens next will not be pretty.

There are two choices: 1. Lebanon can get physically nasty with Hezbollah and suppress them. 2. Lebanon can be the catalyst for a huge, drawn-out Middle East war.

Mark
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OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
I want you to address the abduction and killing of nearly a dozen Israeli soldiers.

I never said anywhere that this was right. But two wrongs doesn't make things right.

You say what was Israel supposed to do? There are many things besides such action taken by Israel. Diplomacy is a wise thing.
What Israel is doing is like beating up a disabled person for not being able to act like a normal person.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
The American Army is occupying Iraq, the Israeli army isn't occupying Lebanon.

But what they can't get rid of the armed cells there?
 
OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 20):
Lebanon can get physically nasty with Hezbollah and suppress them

I'm saying that the if the huge US presence can not deal with the armed cells in Iraq, how can we do it on our own. Are they (US & Israel) blind that they can not work out this equation?

Who's idea is to hurt the whole of Lebanon's civil population.

Under 15% of votes in the country doesn't warrant this kind of reaction, no matter how you try to argue it.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:05 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 21):
But what they can't get rid of the armed cells there?

I don't want to make comparisons to Iraq. These are two totally different situations, so I don't want to bring this into this discussion.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 21):
Diplomacy is a wise thing.

Clearly diplomacy is a good thing, but answer a few of these questions

- Is diplomacy a legitimate response to a violent attack inside a country's borders?
- Who is Israel going to talk to? The Lebanese government (who officially denied any involvement in the attack)? Hezbullah (who clearly doesn't prescribe to "talking")? Syria? Iran? The United Nations (come on now, lets be realistic)?

Diplomacy is all nice and grand, but is it honestly an option in this situation?

Quoting OD720 (Reply 22):
Who's idea is to hurt the whole of Lebanon's civil population.

They are not. The civilian casualties incurred by this attack are because Israel is targeting Hezbullah facilities within civilian areas. But it is NOT their intention to harm the whole of Lebanon's civili population.

[edit] I'm going to bed, I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm glad we're keeping this civil.

[Edited 2006-07-15 10:06:45]

[Edited 2006-07-15 10:07:20]
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OD720
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 23):

Come on Tbar, we all know that this is a regional problem. Why bomb Lebanon?????
 
bill142
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 23):
They are not. The civilian casualties incurred by this attack are because Israel is targeting Hezbullah facilities within civilian areas. But it is NOT their intention to harm the whole of Lebanon's civili population

So civilian deaths are just collateral damage? Sureley there are otherways to disarm hezbullah rather then just bombing Beruit.

Israel are doing themselves no favours.
 
flyingKangaroo
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:08 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 7):

- Hezbullah killed eight Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two. This is not something to be taken lightly. Hezbullah had no right to commit this act since Israel withdrew from all Lebanese land in May (?) 2000.

Exactly.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 25):

So civilian deaths are just collateral damage? Sureley there are otherways to disarm hezbullah rather then just bombing Beruit.

What is Israel supposed to do? Just sit there and hope that Hezbullah returns the soldiers sometime?

Israel is surrounded by countries that don't recognize it as a country, and want it wiped of the earth. They can hardly just wait around, and when they're terrorised by foreign countries just say "thats ok, we won't react, we don't want to get on this country's bad side."

People are saying that Israel is commiting terrorism, but the fact that Hezbullah first kidnapped Israel's soldiers, in an act of terrorism, has been overlooked. What about all the suicide bombs launced by Palestine over the years? You can hardly say Israel has nothing to be afraid of with the Gaza Strip.

flyingKangaroo
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mauriceb
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:15 pm

My thought? its ridiculous, Israel is going way to far... Bombing a country and killing many many innocent people including red cross members, reporters, innocent childs, women, men, etc..


Not that it will help, but i will refuse to take my israelien flag to the Ajax Stadion upcomming season.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:34 pm

Tbar220, unfortunatly this isn´t true anymore, 10 soldiers has been killed, 2 sailors found dead. UN have to put together a peace-keeping unit that´ll disarm Hizbollah, before that and the return of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev I see no end to this.
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lijnden
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:14 pm

My thoughts:
I am getting very tired of this whole middle east crap. It has been going on for decades now and there is simply no solution. Both sides claim Jerusalem and other parts of the area only based upon religion. It is all very unproductive and a nuisance for the rest of the world. Both sides in this conflict are wrong.

The World should make a decision for both parties, since they cannot solve it themselves. The decisions is: make it irreclaimable for either party. Very simple move all the Jews to the USA (Texas or so) and all the Muslims to Saudi Arabia (both countries are the biggest supporters behind the scene) and tear the whole area down and put a huge fence around it. Deadlines set for all of the people involved: 6 months.
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mandala499
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:21 pm

This is a bad analogy. The American Army is occupying Iraq, the Israeli army isn't occupying Lebanon. These are different situations.

Try and tell that to my friend who was held hostage by the Iraqi insurgents last year. Try and tell that to the family of a UN aid driver that was killed by insurgents... Guess what they say?

"IT AIN'T EASY..." do they blame the Americans for not making the place safe for them (after all, they were there to make Iraq and the world a more secure place by removing Saddam right?)? "NO"

In Lebanon's case, kicking the Syrians out is EASIER than disarming the Hezbollah... Same in Indonesia, arresting foreign "troublemakers" is easier than dealing with our own troublemakers.

As an outsider, I see that the peace in Lebanon is fragile, just look at the constitutional requirements...
The president HAS to be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister HAS to be a Sunni Muslim, the speaker of parliament HAS to be a Shi'ite Muslim... This is the deal that was required to end the civil war and led to expulsion of the Syrians... For the Lebanese government to pressure Hezbollah to disarm requires a delicate approach to avoid the Shi'ite population from seeing it as a move from the two groups to squash them... which could result in another civil war.

The best thing to do for the Lebanese government in this case is to proactively persuade them to disarm while at the same time win the Shi'ite population's sympathy that peace and factional disarmament is the way forward... The problem is, the Hezbollah would play the constitutional infringement card if the Lebanese government simply marches in and disarms them... which would "give them the right" to restart the civil war.

If these talks are too slow for us, and if there is a Shi'ite representation against Hezbollah, then why not just simply arm the government (with the presence of an anti Hezbollah Shi'ite political representation as a prerequisite), and then let the united Lebanon eradicate the Hezbollah's armed faction?

Or, as Alessandro said, get the UN to disarm the Hezbollah... but then all these international talks would lead to the Sheba Farms etc etc etc...

All this is easier said than done. We can write a thousand replies blaming one or another, justifying whatever side we want... but looking from the replies, not many appreciate the intricacies of the Lebanese fragile peace...

But hey, what do i know, I'm not even from anywhere near the region!

Mandala499
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par13del
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:56 pm

There have been a lot of threads over the last few days, I have read all and posted in a view, and learned some things. Civil though most have been, substance eventually goes. Israel had invaded Lebanon, six years ago they left, the UN redrew the border and gave its seal of approval. Israel and Lebanon were are "peace". Hezbollah needed an avenue to continue the fight and Syria gave them the Sheba Farms area as a spark, so the conflict continued even though the UN disagreed.

Now when this situation is bought up we get replys like this
"No Israel began the "crisis" back in 1948 (May 15th). This is the same "crisis"."

If we accept that the UN was wrong when they created the State of Israel, then we should all push for outright war to end the situation once and for all.

If we accept the creation of the State of Israel, then the only solution I see is a seperation of the two people. Unlike the Berlin wall which seperated people who wanted to live together, most in this conflict do not want to live with each other. The Palestinians and most of their supporters support the destruction of the State of Israel, the Israelis for their part see their survival and access to historical lands as their religious right. I do not in my lifetime see either of them agreering to live together in peace. Jordan and Egypt do, but their people can always move to Lebanon and Palestine to continue the fight.

On an off note, Jordan was in the same position that Lebanon is currently in years ago, unfortunately, the solution then was violent, and I fear that the same may be the case in Lebanon.
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
nly non muslim nation



Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
most muslim countries

Hmm lotta emphasys on religion there...

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
Why is Gaza so important to you, most of Israel's people are well off and have money and your country makes its own money, whereas palestine has money donated to them by rich arabs and can't generate its own economy...so is this about pride or a lost cause? because you can live with other Arab countries next to you, why can't you live with one more?

Excuse me? Israel does not "want" Gaza, where have you been?
Israel moved out, then Hamas began this kidnapping crap.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 7):

 checkmark 

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
pilotaydin
Topic Author
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 3):
You act as though being the only non-Muslim nation in the area is some sort of bad thing. Why?

That would be an assumption on your behalf....no acting going on here. Kinda hard to over the internet actually...

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 3):
You need to see the other side too and perhaps pose your quest for thoughts a little better.

I live right next door to what's going on, I DO see the otherside and i posed a question about it...seeing as many Israelis dont post on here as much as other people do...

Quoting Windshear (Reply 32):
Hmm lotta emphasys on religion there...

hmm what else is this whole thing really about???
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 27):
Israel is going way to far... Bombing a country and killing many many innocent people including red cross members, reporters, innocent childs, women, men, etc..

Typical anti-semitism----what about the innocent people, women, children,etc. in Israel??????---who may include Arab non-jews of Israeli citizenship by the way---.

It was Hezbollah who attacked Israel----with ROCKETS!!!!

The good old "double-standard" at work. Pure anti-semitism to think EVERYTHING is the fault of Israel. Israel is ALWAYS expected to be perfect while the rest of the countries in the world (no matter how corrupt) can do as they wish-------just because Israel is Jewish-----------

Shame on the extremists of Syria and Iran using the Lebanon as their battlefield with Israel. How very small of them. Obviously they feel the citizens of the Lebanon "disposable" to advance their causes. Very sad.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Jordan and Egypt do, but their people can always move to Lebanon and Palestine to continue the fight.

Get these zombies away from us. Let them go fight in nother country.
rolf
 
CaptainZed
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:21 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:32 pm

Hizbullah is the first threat to Lebanon's peace, before Israel, Syria or Iran.

Sometimes i think is Hizbullah collaborating with Israel to the destruction of Lebanon so they can impose their own islamic government?
Cos their timings are so perfect.

BTW thank you Hizbullah for allowing us to watch the FIFA world cup.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10819
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Rolfen
"Get these zombies away from us. Let them go fight in nother country."

Only you and your people can do that Rolfen, unless your country wants to turn itself over to the UN for them to manage and clean up.
 
mrmeangenes
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:56 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 33):
hmm what else is this whole thing really about???

To say this whole thing is about "religion" seems pretty superficial. I'd guess it's more about power and hatred.

Pilotaydin,how has Turkey reacted to years of attacks by the Kurds-many of which were launched from inside Iraq ? Did Turkish troops not enter one of the Iraqi provinces recently and fire artillery barrages at suspected Kurdish
positions ? Did they not do something similar during the Saddam reign ?

I am not trying to play the "relative morality" game ; merely trying to point out it depends upon whose ox is being gored.

I do, by the way, think it is dreadful to see Lebanon turned into a battleground -once again- between warring factions,and hope this conflict ends soon !
gene
 
TNNH
Posts: 218
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:43 pm

"Look what you idiots did! You crossed the border and killed and kidnapped their soldiers. They responded, and now we have damage everywhere. We have a problem with you Hezzbullah, you can't make unilateral decisions that affect the whole country. What if you do this again and again? Your ruining everything we're trying to build."

Signed,
The Lebanese People
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts.

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:50 pm

I sometimes get this impression that israel wants to keep the state of war in the region.
Sociology 101: the poorer the country the country, the higher is the risk of internal turmoil and the lower is the chance of having a stable democracy.

Lebanon had done great progress towards democracy and standard of living. Yet one small provocation from the hezbollah and the israeli are now seriously on a mission to turn back the clock 20 years... with a straight face.

They may turn lebanon into another palestine.

When someone has his back against the wall, he'll fight pretty desperately. I can now understand palestinians. When you are stuck in one of the most dense and unhygienic areas of the world, and everytime you build something it gets destroyed, you get desperate pretty quickly.... I mean they are obviously desperate if they're blowing themself up and preparing their children for martyrdom.

Both israel and the palestinians/hezbollah are to blame.
- The palestinian for blaming the whole world for their misery, when in fact they are not able to control themselves. Enough whining, do your best and hope you'll get paid back.
- The israelis for showing no pity whatsoever, planting the seeds of terrorism and watering them up to this day, then wondering why the others are so pissed off.
rolf
 
CaptainZed
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:21 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:29 pm

Rolfen,

You missed the fact that in their "Book", every martyr in the way of Allah will be rewarded by undless virgins and "rivers of milk honey and wine".

[Edited 2006-07-15 16:29:44]
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting CaptainZed (Reply 41):
Rolfen,

You missed the fact that in their "Book", every martyr in the way of Allah will be rewarded by undless virgins and "rivers of milk honey and wine".

How is it relevant?
rolf
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 39):
"Look what you idiots did! You crossed the border and killed and kidnapped their soldiers. They responded, and now we have damage everywhere. We have a problem with you Hezzbullah, you can't make unilateral decisions that affect the whole country. What if you do this again and again? Your ruining everything we're trying to build."

Signed,
The Lebanese People

That is really the underlying problem here. Lebanon cannot continue to allow para-military groups to operate against Israel from its territory. Its continued tolerance of these groups is a basic and fundamental failure to govern. ALL activities conducted in, or from, Lebanon are the responsibility of the Lebanese Government. That is a basic precondition of sovereignty. If the Lebanese Army isn't powerful enough to remove Hezbollah, the government should request international assistance to accomplish that end.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
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RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:31 am

Historical facts:

In 1948, Britain offered the Jews a very small state composed mainly of nonarable desert. Britain also offered the Arabs mainly fertile land for their state. At the time PALESTINIAN Arabs REJECTED Britain's offer. Had they accepted it, they would now be celebrating about fifty-six years of statehood. Perhaps the two-state solution could have come into being non-violently. The Israelis accepted a far-less-than-ideal amount of nonarable land. The Arab and Islamic nation wanted the Jews out of the Middle East MORE than they wanted the Palestinians to have their own nation state, and therefore REJECTED ALL OFFERS of sovereign land.

It is ALL about the Jews.
The "new" anti-semitism is very ugly and it is everywhere.
All of the worlds nations no matter how corrupt hold tiny little Israel to a MUCH higher standard than themselves. Why do you suppose that is? It is because Israel is Jewish.
For all of its faults---and Israel is certainly not perfect----it has done well, as a tiny bit of democracy in very hostile surroundings. In the beginning a haven for those poor people who managed to survive the ravages of the Nazi persecution of Europe, and now for Jews everywhere to have a place of refuge.

Now for those who want even more historical information:

"Israel" was FIRST formed as a pact between GOD and Moses over two thousand years ago.

FIVE times in the Old Testament AND Five times in the New Testament GOD makes the statement, when referring to his chosen, Jewish people:

"I will bless those who bless them-----and I will curse those who curse them".

Say what you will, but if you believe the bible at all------so sayeth the Lord.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
Now for those who want even more historical information:

"Israel" was FIRST formed as a pact between GOD and Moses over two thousand years ago.

FIVE times in the Old Testament AND Five times in the New Testament GOD makes the statement, when referring to his chosen, Jewish people:

"I will bless those who bless them-----and I will curse those who curse them".

Say what you will, but if you believe the bible at all------so sayeth the Lord.

So why should the lord have selected a special group of people as "elected" rather than accepting all created mankind as his work ???
The word "Goi" basically is a rather racist term that finds it's origins in this stupid interpretation of the bible...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 45):
The word "Goi" basically is a rather racist term that finds it's origins in this stupid interpretation of the bible

Bullshit!!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:45 am

"TO the Israeli people : Why is Gaza so important to you, most of Israel's people are well off and have money and your country makes its own money, whereas palestine has money donated to them by rich arabs and can't generate its own economy..."

Israel works to be 'well off' and they generate their economy. Palestine gets money thrown at them and they spend it on rockets, bombs, and other weaponry to try to kill the Jews, which is why they're not well off and don't have any sort of economy... and then they blame the jews for being poor...

Why is Israel being blamed for the palestinians poking their own eyes out???
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts.

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:50 am

Thread # 949348349838 on this topic.
nothing
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Israel, Lebanon And This Conflict....thoughts...

Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting OD720 (Reply 24):
Come on Tbar, we all know that this is a regional problem. Why bomb Lebanon?????

Because Hezbullah is operating on Lebanese soil and using the country's infrastructure.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 25):
So civilian deaths are just collateral damage? Sureley there are otherways to disarm hezbullah rather then just bombing Beruit.

They are not just indiscriminately bombing Beirut as you and many others are making it appear. They are attacking Hezbullah targets and parts of the infrastructure that they use so that they cannot escape. Its a damn shame that civilians are dying, but how do you keep weapons from killing civilians? And also, why haven't you said anything about the Hezbullah attack that killed eight and kidnapped two soldiers, on Israeli soil? There is way too much silence on this fact and how it started this current crisis.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 43):
ALL activities conducted in, or from, Lebanon are the responsibility of the Lebanese Government. That is a basic precondition of sovereignty.

I couldn't agree more. Its easy for them to say, "We won't deal with it" or "Its not our problem" or even "We don't have the power to deal with it". But if Hezbullah continues to attack Israel from Lebanese soil (in the last six years especially after the withdrawal), then who ELSE is going to deal with it? I've asked this question numerous times and nobody has answered it.
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