Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:30 am

In less that 2 weeks time, Indonesia will execute the 3 Bali bombers (Amrozi and his crew). My husband (an American) and I (a Singaporean) have a holiday villa in Seminyak, Bali and we both agree that these 3 people deserve the capital punishment for what they’ve done. We say good riddance. Most of the victims of the first Bali bombings were Australians. As you might know that Australia’s official line on capital punishment, is that it is barbaric, and should not be allowed anywhere. The Australian government has in the past, and will again, use that stance to plead leniency for Aussies convicted of serious offences overseas.

Prime Minister Howard said he does not oppose the execution of those behind the Bali bombing. Other Australian politicians have voiced similar comments. This non-opposition, raises the questions, ‘is a barbaric punishment ever justified?’ and also ‘who decides when?’ Aussies, Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan are in line for execution in Bali, barring some legal miracle. Legal experts in Australia, are warning that the government’s split personality over the death penalty, could hurt the chances of those like Sukumaran and Chan.

Here is the link for the whole article http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1711109.htm

I’m interested in what our Australians (and non Australians) a.netters feel about this issue.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8064
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Thread starter):
In less that 2 weeks time, Indonesia will execute the 3 Bali bombers (Amrozi and his crew).

The death sentence is the ideal "result" IMO, they deserve it.



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8779
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:49 am

I'm never in favour of the death sentence. If we (through our elected representatives) kill, what makes us better than a murderer? Lock em up for life, sure, but I don't see how killing more people makes it better, or the victims any less dead.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
If we (through our elected representatives) kill, what makes us better than a murderer?

What makes us better is:

1. The REASONS for which we kill.

2. The MANNER in which we kill.

I don't think that was terribly complicated. Do you?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
What makes us better is:

1. The REASONS for which we kill.

2. The MANNER in which we kill.

I don't think that was terribly complicated. Do you?

The problem with that is the requirement for judgement and morality, which is anathema to billions on this planet.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
Lock em up for life, sure,

And feed them, pamper them, give them all sorts of priveleges?
Nope, capital punishment is the only option
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 5):
And feed them, pamper them, give them all sorts of priveleges?
Nope, capital punishment is the only option

Any living prisoner is seen as a political hostage by the other side. If these murderers are allowed to live sooner or later innocent hostages WILL be taken to exchange for their release.

How many times do we have to see this happen?

The argument for life imprisonment might be made in the case of ordinary criminals but not for convicted terrorists so long as there are sympathizers out there hiding in your midst. The argument that killing them just makes them martyrs is not all that valid either. A live OBL-wannabe is potentially a lot more trouble than a martyred (but completely dead) one.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:46 am

That is surprising, no Aus posts so far.

I am strongly against capital punishment and the appalling nature of the Bali bombing is no reason to change from that firmly held view and I am ashamed that Howard and Latham expressed approval of the sentences.

We see all to much around us as evidence that revenge is not a basis for a civilised world, and capital punishment is simply revenge.

I am happy to say that most of my Indonesian acquaintances are also opposed to it, although they too are very angry with the bombers. That extends to members of the TNI who indeed might suddenly find themselves on the firing squads. Those I know are not happy.

I thank you for your question Singaporegirl. I hope that some of the Indonesians will wish to post too. We must never forget that Islamic terrorists have killed far more Indonesians that all the other nations put together. They are a blight on Indonesia more than the rest of the world.

What I would like to see is Amrosi and the others slowly begin to change during a life sentence as they finally came to see how stupid and short sighted his actions were. They would then be the best force against a recrudescence of his movement in the future.

Any who wish to know more about the dreadful nature of capital punishment should start with a brilliant French film called Nous sommes tous des assassins - We are all murderers

A good review is available at
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=116117
There are a number of other films that are cogent arguments against this barbaric relic of a past that should be long gone.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
That is surprising, no Aus posts so far.

Possibly due to the time difference?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
baylorairbear
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:25 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:48 am

What's the point of having them sit in a cell for ever? So they have time to reflect on what they've done, and prepare thenselves for their god?

BAB
I'm just skipping stones...
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Thread starter):
In less that 2 weeks time, Indonesia will execute the 3 Bali bombers (Amrozi and his crew). My husband (an American) and I (a Singaporean)

It would be nice to rephrase. I thought for a moment that you and your husband were going to be executed too. The full stop is not that evident.
rolf
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 9):
What's the point of having them sit in a cell for ever? So they have time to reflect on what they've done, and prepare thenselves for their god?

These people showed NO consideration for the lives of others in their quest. Why should we then show them any form of clemency
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Thread starter):
As you might know that Australia’s official line on capital punishment, is that it is barbaric, and should not be allowed anywhere.

An interesting overall interpretation from a Singaporean. I certainly hope you're not suggesting that murdering over 200 people is akin to smuggling a small amount of drugs in transit through Singapore airport?

I'm dismayed by the comments of certain political leaders (namely the Prime Minister). I don't believe in the death penalty, never have and never will.

But Singaporegirl, I get the feeling that you're trying to suggest that Australia has one policy on the death penalty for Australians, and one for non-Australians. Am I correct?

If I am, then you're quite mistaken. True, various political leaders (aside from your usual nutty rabble on the extreme left and right) have advocated for the executions of Osama Bin Laden and the Bali Bombers. But you must admit that these are extreme cases. It's an extremely sensitive and difficult issue, and one that divides the Australian population.

But this isn't the sort of issue that you, as a Singaporean should be trying to score points with; if that's what you're trying to do.

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 9):
What's the point of having them sit in a cell for ever? So they have time to reflect on what they've done, and prepare thenselves for their god?

I'd much rather violent criminals spend the rest of their lives locked up in a cell, not because it's a cop out, but because it shows we're better and more compassionate people than they are.

Simple.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
I'd much rather violent criminals spend the rest of their lives locked up in a cell,

So would I. As long as that "rest of their lives" is not much longer than 7 days
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
baylorairbear
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:25 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
I'd much rather violent criminals spend the rest of their lives locked up in a cell, not because it's a cop out, but because it shows we're better and more compassionate people than they are.

Who is this making a point to? I think it is to ourselves.

BAB
I'm just skipping stones...
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
Any living prisoner is seen as a political hostage by the other side.

And any executed prisoner is seen as a martyr. On that particular issue, there's no clear cut right response.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 14):
Who is this making a point to? I think it is to ourselves.

Of course. And why not?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
I certainly hope you're not suggesting that murdering over 200 people is akin to smuggling a small amount of drugs in transit through Singapore airport?

If you’re referring to the Nguyen person, do you think 340 grams of heroine is a small amount? By the way, heroine does kill people too http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/drug_guide/Heroin , http://www.focusas.com/Heroin.html

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
I get the feeling that you're trying to suggest that Australia has one policy on the death penalty for Australians, and one for non-Australians. Am I correct?

No, but I do want to point out that your elected leader(s) seemed to be inconsistent in the matter of death penalty.

From the article: Tim Lindsay, of the Asian Law Centre at the University of Melbourne, has also urged politicians not to endorse or be enthusiastic at the upcoming executions of the Bali bombers."It will be difficult for them to say this but they need to say that Australia opposed the death penalty for any time, for any offence, anywhere," he said. "That includes the Bali bombers, otherwise we just get into an argument over what is barbaric and what isn't."

There’s another article regarding the matter, titled Death penalty double standard may hurt Aust http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1711014.htm
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 17):
you’re referring to the Nguyen person, do you think 340 grams of heroine is a small amount?

Don't be so patronising, I realise the dangers of drugs. No, 340 grams isn't such a small amount, but it's hardly worthy of death penalty either.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 17):
No, but I do want to point out that your elected leader(s) seemed to be inconsistent in the matter of death penalty.

I still can't help but feel you're trying to make a point about the Van Nguyen case. Elected officials in this country span the political spectrum, and just as there will be those who support the death penalty in the Bali Bombers case, there are others who will not. It's not hypocrisy, it's evidence of one opinion among many within the ranks of federal parliamentarians.

Clearly, you do support the death penalty, and I respect the fact that that is your opinion. Indeed, it would be easier for our anti-capital punishment policy to achieve greater success if elected officials didn't (at the very least - publicly) support the death penalty in any case. But I don't think you're trying to make this the point. I think you're trying to make Australians out to be hypocrites because it undermines our anti-capital punishment stance, thus serving to partially justify the murder-happy policies of your government and others.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 18):
Don't be so patronising, I realise the dangers of drugs. No, 340 grams isn't such a small amount, but it's hardly worthy of death penalty either.

You did say: I certainly hope you're not suggesting that murdering over 200 people is akin to smuggling a small amount of drugs in transit through Singapore airport?

That 340 gm of heroin can in fact kill 200 people or more. In your opinion does it make a difference if a terrorist is killing 1 person or 200 people?

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 18):
Indeed, it would be easier for our anti-capital punishment policy to achieve greater success if elected officials didn't (at the very least - publicly) support the death penalty in any case. But I don't think you're trying to make this the point. I think you're trying to make Australians out to be hypocrites because it undermines our anti-capital punishment stance, thus serving to partially justify the murder-happy policies of your government and others.

The point is your leader(s) seemed to be supporting the execution of the Bali bombers, and since they are your elected leaders, it reflects the of Australians in general.

By the way, since you are now flying the American flag, you might want to know that just a couple of days ago the US govt executed a prisoner in Ohio. He happened to be one of the 1,038 people put to death in the USA since 1977.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511322006?open&of=ENG-2AM

[Edited 2006-08-11 02:58:21]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 19):
You did say: I certainly hope you're not suggesting that murdering over 200 people is akin to smuggling a small amount of drugs in transit through Singapore airport?

The point I was making still stands, but let me rephrase: Murdering 200 people is not akin to smuggling any amount of drugs through Singapore airport.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 19):
The point is your leader(s) seemed to be supporting the execution of the Bali bombers, and since they are your elected leaders, it reflects the of Australians in general.

Is that so? It may well be that the Prime Minister and a majority of the Australian population might support the death penalty in the cases of the bali bombers and OBL, and indeed that is an unhelpful opinion. But I refuse to accept responsibility for every utterance of a Prime Minister who was elected into parliament along with his party with a minority of the vote. Do you freely accept the responsibility of having to explain the actions of every action your government undertakes?

For you to jump on this comment made by the Prime Minister is indicative of how you, and other Singaporeans, are so keen to justify your country's stance of capital punishment in the face of profound moral objections.

If I'm incorrect, then please explain to me your motivation?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 20):
The point I was making still stands, but let me rephrase: Murdering 200 people is not akin to smuggling any amount of drugs through Singapore airport.

Are you saying that if a drug mule is smuggling 1,000,000,000 or more grams of heroin makes no difference to you? Like I said before that 340 grams of heroin can kill more that 200 people. The law in Singapore states that if you smuggle more that 5g of heroin, you'd get the death penalty. And if your argument is that that Nguyen person was only transitting in S'pore, did you know that if you are transitting in the USA you do need a visa as well? It's not like you can just pass through the USA the way you could prior to 9/11. in fact if I'm not mistaken if you're flying over the USA (for eg between Canada to Mexico, you sort of have to be 'approved'?). Same as the Bali Nine, they tried to smuggled over 8kg of heroin out of Bali to Australia. That 8 KG of heroin can kill so many people in both Bali and Australia.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 20):
It may well be that the Prime Minister and a majority of the Australian population might support the death penalty in the cases of the bali bombers and OBL, and indeed that is an unhelpful opinion. But I refuse to accept responsibility for every utterance of a Prime Minister who was elected into parliament along with his party with a minority of the vote. Do you freely accept the responsibility of having to explain the actions of every action your government undertakes?

The fact remains, PM Howard IS your elected leader. His stance on the Bali bombers execution reflects Australians in general. That second article that I included is coming from an Australian news agency, not Singaporean or any other countries. For eg, I understand that only 49% or American elected GW Bush the second time around, but every single decision that he makes reflects the American stance on anything.

[Edited 2006-08-11 03:15:55]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 21):
Like I said before that 340 grams of heroin can kill more that 200 people. Same as the Bali Nine, they tried to smuggled over 8kg of heroin out of Bali to Australia. That 8 KG of heroin can kill so many people in both Bali and Australia.

Look, clearly you're a big fan of state sponsored murder. I'm not. You think people should die for their crimes. I don't. Let's leave it at that.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 21):
The fact remains, PM Howard IS your elected leader. His stance on the Bali bombers execution reflects Australians in general. That second article that I included is coming from an Australian news agency, not Singaporean or any other countries. For eg, I understand that only 49% or American elected GW Bush the second time around, but every single decision that he makes reflects the American stance on anything.

So I was right. You are calling Australians hypocrites. Again, Howards words are extremely unhelpful (unhelpful being the operative word for most of his reign) but I don't feel our argument against the death penalty internationally should be contaminated as a result. If you want to look at it that way, then fine. Those Australians who oppose death as a form of punishment do have a real concern with how these comments will play out with the Indonesian courts, but I gather you're not too concerned about ensuring Australia maintains a concrete position against the death penalty.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 22):
So I was right. You are calling Australians hypocrites. Again, Howards words are extremely unhelpful (unhelpful being the operative word for most of his reign) but I don't feel our argument against the death penalty internationally should be contaminated as a result. If you want to look at it that way, then fine. Those Australians who oppose death as a form of punishment do have a real concern with how these comments will play out with the Indonesian courts, but I gather you're not too concerned about ensuring Australia maintains a concrete position against the death penalty.

Did you even read this link?
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1711014.htm

And you didn't mention on the American stance on the death penalty since you are now flying the American flag. Just a couple of days ago the American govt. executed a prisoner in Ohio. I don't see you condemning that execution, nor the other 1,000+ execution that happened in the USA since 1977, after you started to fly the American flag.

[Edited 2006-08-11 03:26:39]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 23):
Did you even read this link?

How many times must I describe the Prime Minister's words as "unhelpful" for you to understand that I'm referring to the way they'd be received in the Indonesian courts?

And yes, I read the article. But I'm far more interested in your opinion.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 23):
And you didn't mention on the American stance on the death penalty since you are now flying the American flag.

The death penalty is a barbaric practice no matter where it happens. You can't justify the practice by arguing that "they do it too!". It doesn't cut it. My support for the United States doesn't extend to all government policies. Evidently, you support everything the Singapore government has done since the year dot, going by your belief that if a country's leader says something...everyone must agree. Maybe that's just how things are in Singapore?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10228
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:31 am

I have a couple points to raise, the societies who are against the death penalty are in the minority on this planet.

Since all societies previously supported it, why have some changed. In the colonies, its was what the colonial power did. In my instance, when the English abolished the death penalty, they did it after a few years of education. That learning option, was never fostered within the commonwealth, the Privy Council started delaying decisions based on their believe's thus creating annimosity amongst the former colonies.
Even those local political leaders who were educated in Europe, returned to their countries and attempted to abolish capital punishment without first educating the citizens. In the US, the majority of the population still support it, but judges do their best to delay the process. Unfortunately for them, they give their critics cause to say that if it is not used, how can you tell whether its effective or not, waiting 10 years to excute cannot be justice.

The Caribbean people, as an example, by a vast majority support the death penalty, indeed in most countries the majority believe that the crime problem that we have is directly related to the Privy Council in England doing all that it can to sabotage the "will of the people" because it does not conform to theirs, hence, we are now seeking to get rid of the Privy Council.

Qantasforever said:
"I'd much rather violent criminals spend the rest of their lives locked up in a cell, not because it's a cop out, but because it shows we're better and more compassionate people than they are"

A reverse response, is this really humane or compassionate? We have organizations all over the world who think it is cruel and inhuman to cage wild animals, how then do we justify caging a human for the rest of his life?
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 24):
How many times must I describe the Prime Minister's words as "unhelpful" for you to understand that I'm referring to the way they'd be received in the Indonesian courts?

The fact remains, the elected leader of any country, when they make a stance on anything reflects the whole country. Are you aware that, there are Singaporeans and Indonesians (or even people in the USA) that might be oppose to the death penalty? The thing is their opinion might not matter much, especially infront of the whole world when their leaders believes otherwise? I am very passionate regarding my second home, Bali. I beleive that president SBY is a good leader for Indonesia and I support his stance on the Bali bombers.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 24):
The death penalty is a barbaric practice no matter where it happens. You can't justify the practice by arguing that "they do it too!". It doesn't cut it. My support for the United States doesn't extend to all government policies.

At the same token, I've never read any post of yours (at least on a.net) opposing the US stance on death penalty. I don't meant to be intrusive, but I've done some search on your posting on a.net regarding death penalty. From my search, I've only seen your view on the Singaporean law of death penalty, but not from the American side. Like I've mentioned, the American had executed more that 1,000 prisoners since 1977. I didn't see any of your post on a.net (not even one) condemning the American death penalty.

[Edited 2006-08-11 03:54:48]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 25):
A reverse response, is this really humane or compassionate? We have organizations all over the world who think it is cruel and inhuman to cage wild animals, how then do we justify caging a human for the rest of his life?

They get three meals a day, medical attention, various forms of entertainment, and access to counselling. They are also removed from society, which fulfills both a societal demand for justice, and keeps violent criminals out of the community. Jail also assists rehabilitation (although some have a strong argument against the rehabilitative qualities of prison). This is not like locking a wild animal in a cage.

It's a moral question, and not an easy one. I just don't accept that the death penalty is right.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 26):
Are you aware that, there are Singaporeans and Indonesians (or even the USA) that might be oppose to the death penalty?

Of course, but you're not one of them.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 26):
I beleive that president SBY is a good leader for Indonesia

I agree, but not with his stance on the death penalty.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 26):
At the same token, I've never read any post of yours (at least on a.net) opposing the US stance on death penalty.

Don't confuse lack of condemnation with support. I condemn the death penalty everywhere, even if I don't make a constant song and dance about it on these forums.

But your interest in me is rather flattering.  Wink

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 28):
Don't confuse lack of condemnation with support. I condemn the death penalty everywhere, even if I don't make a constant song and dance about it on these forums.

But your interest in me is rather flattering.

Don't flatter yourself too much dude... I've only researched your stance on death penalty after this thread... hehehe.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
TNNH
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:25 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:57 am

this guy is such shit, one of the absolute worst of the islamic fascists.

Continue the holy struggle, get rid of Zionists, get rid of the Christian filth. God is great, this is my song,

this is his song he sang during the trial proceedings. good night a**hole.

TNNH
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 30):
this guy is such shit, one of the absolute worst of the islamic fascists.

If you are referring to Amrozi, yes he's a scumbag and he deserves his punishment!
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 29):
Don't flatter yourself too much dude... I've only researched your stance on death penalty after this thread... hehehe.

I've looked into your record on here as well. You're certainly consistent.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 32):
You're certainly consistent.

Of course I am (I take that as a compliment too btw that you looked up on my old a.net postings). I'm no flip floppers a la John Kerry (fyi I married a democrat from Manhattan)! hahaha...

And if any of you are wondering why I'm flying the Lebanese flag is because as a Christian woman I support the innocent Christian Lebanese that are being attacked/killed at the moment.

[Edited 2006-08-11 04:20:17]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
And any executed prisoner is seen as a martyr. On that particular issue, there's no clear cut right response.

Did you read my entire post?

Let me refresh your memory:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
The argument that killing them just makes them martyrs is not all that valid either. A live OBL-wannabe is potentially a lot more trouble than a martyred (but completely dead) one.

There have been HUNDREDS of kidnappings attempting to gain the release of living prisoners but not once, not ever have they kidnapped to get a (dead) martyr restored to life. In the real world 'martyr' is just a word they throw around to scare you - and apparently they have succeeded. Martyrs are of no value to their cause that I can see because they don't even like each other. Their cause has an endless supply of unreasoning hatred for Israel and the west. The don't need martyrs to promote their cause. Nor do they seem to use them.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:26 pm

Very simple....Kill them and then wrap their bodies in pig fat. If I am correct, pig fat or any type of pig is considered a desecration to the muslim religon. If we show them that you will be desecrated for doing a horrific terrorist act, maybe the next wave of terrorists will think twice.

(I am not 100% sure about the pig thing and I am not trying to flame the Muslim religon, Just the terrorist animals).

JFK69
 
Pulkovokiwi
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:17 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:27 pm

Plenty of kiwis died there too. I would gladly pull the trigger.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 33):
And if any of you are wondering why I'm flying the Lebanese flag is because as a Christian woman I support the innocent Christian Lebanese that are being attacked/killed at the moment.

O-kaay.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 35):
I am not trying to flame the Muslim religon,

I think you just did.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 37):
O-kaay.

I'm sure that you have your reasons to support the USA, I sure do have my reasons to support my fellow Christians in Lebanon.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/08/04/AR2006080400307.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...02/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/

Before these events, I was actually pro Israel, but I changed my position in a heartbeat once I found about out about their assaults towards the Christians in Lebanon. However I DO NOT support the Hezbollah.

[Edited 2006-08-11 06:40:45]
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:39 pm

The death penalty is a tough one. However, in this case it is kill them and kill those who attempt to kill us. Their war is against humanity. That itself, desrves death.

This is how you win a war against these scumbags. There is no other way. They want to be martyrs? Let's give them all their wish. Every last one of them.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
And any executed prisoner is seen as a martyr. On that particular issue, there's no clear cut right response.

Except that by arranging a state assassination, you stoop to their level and that means they win. We should not humour them. Additionally, as I suggested, there is a high probability that they will recant their views if given the time to do so and an turned opponent is a great asset.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 17):
No, but I do want to point out that your elected leader(s) seemed to be inconsistent in the matter of death penalty.



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 20):
Is that so? It may well be that the Prime Minister and a majority of the Australian population might support the death penalty in the cases of the bali bombers and OBL, and indeed that is an unhelpful opinion. But I refuse to accept responsibility for every utterance of a Prime Minister who was elected into parliament along with his party with a minority of the vote. Do you freely accept the responsibility of having to explain the actions of every action your government undertakes?



Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 21):
The fact remains, PM Howard IS your elected leader. His stance on the Bali bombers execution reflects Australians in general.



Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 23):
And you didn't mention on the American stance on the death penalty since you are now flying the American flag. Just a couple of days ago the American govt. executed a prisoner in Ohio. I don't see you condemning that execution, nor the other 1,000+ execution that happened in the USA since 1977, after you started to fly the American flag.

You are correct SG when you state what Howard says reflects on Australia but as QFF succinctly says, it does not reflect on a majority of Australians because we simply do not agree. If you were to get Howard into a cosy corner (better you than me) and administer a truth serum (the one that works on Howard is extremely expensive) I think you would find that even he regrets what seemed a cheap political (I REPEAT POLITICAL) point. Latham, well even his friends now think he is barking mad - and I presume you want to include Latham in your cheer squad SG.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 21):
Are you saying that if a drug mule is smuggling 1,000,000,000 or more grams of heroin makes no difference to you?

Ah well, with 1000 tonnes, now I know you must be talking about GWB as he is the only one with power over that much heroin as he has arranged, even if by default for Afghanistan to take over where the golden triangles was just starting to go out of business. Instead of hanging the likes of Nguyen why not start trying to fix the problem both at its source (growing poppies) and at the end of the chain, by doing what even Nixon wanted to do first off, treat it as the medical problem that it is.

By the way, the evidence is that if there were supervised injecting rooms, the death toll from 300 gms, 3000 gms and even 30000 gms would be zero.

The matter of executions probably deserves more publicity than it normally gets. In the 50s the Lords debated the death penalty. As part of that debate, information was produced about the special precautions that were taken in relation to the hanging of women prisoners. Newspapers were forbidden to publish the information but I believe you will find it is in Hansard of the day, try about 1955 or 1956.

When Gary Gilmore elected to face a firing squad in 1977 to set off the present "round" of US judicial murders, there were so many volunteers it was embarrassing but the execution squad was of five prison warders. One rifle was supposed to have a blank, but Gilmore's brother reported there were 5 bullet holes in his shirt. The delay after the shooting of Gilmore before he could be pronounced dead is also curious.

Executions are times when the state lowers its standards to those whom it says it despises.

Mailer and Gilmore

http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/archive/Issue-March-1997/petch.html

Quoting Par13del (Reply 25):
A reverse response, is this really humane or compassionate? We have organizations all over the world who think it is cruel and inhuman to cage wild animals, how then do we justify caging a human for the rest of his life?

I guess you are not suggesting the problems with zoos should be solved by shooting the animals. I don't think it is good to keep a human locked up for life but it is a better option than taking him out into a nearby wood, tying him to a tree, blindfolding him and shooting him.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 29):
hehehe.

I presume this is a nervous laugh. Say no more.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 35):
Very simple....Kill them and then wrap their bodies in pig fat. If I am correct, pig fat or any type of pig is considered a desecration to the muslim religon. If we show them that you will be desecrated for doing a horrific terrorist act, maybe the next wave of terrorists will think twice.

You would have made the Indian mutiny a cake walk. Well done, with more contributions like this, matters could easily turn serious.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 14):
Who is this making a point to? I think it is to ourselves.

Of course. And why not?

The sad thing is that some think that if the state murders Amrosi it has made a point. Well it will have, but alas not the point that I would wish. It has told Amrosi's friends "It is OK, we are just like you". Is that what we want? I know I am not like Amrosi, therefore I will say clearly, he should not be killed as that would be revenge. I do not wish to be the same as Amrosi, I am just surprised so many seem to wish to be similar to him.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:38 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Thread starter):
This non-opposition, raises the questions, ‘is a barbaric punishment ever justified?’ and also ‘who decides when?’

No it is never justified.

But capital punishment is not barbaric (unless you use medieval methods like drawing and quartering, or winching out your intestines. That would be barbaric.)

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 35):
Very simple....Kill them and then wrap their bodies in pig fat. If I am correct, pig fat or any type of pig is considered a desecration to the muslim religon. If we show them that you will be desecrated for doing a horrific terrorist act, maybe the next wave of terrorists will think twice.

 checkmark 

Many (not all, but many) of these terrorists are motivated by the promise of 72 virgins, a place in heaven, etc. Take away that promise, and I think you will dampen some of their enthusiasm for blowing themselves up.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
You would have made the Indian mutiny a cake walk. Well done, with more contributions like this, matters could easily turn serious.

"easily turn serious"? are you nuts? You think they're just playing around? It IS serious, and as long as people refuse to take it seriously, it's gonna get worse and worse.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution � Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:57 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
"easily turn serious"? are you nuts? You think they're just playing around? It IS serious, and as long as people refuse to take it seriously, it's gonna get worse and worse.

It is called ironical reinforcement. I think it would be more appropriate to check out the sanity of someone advocating the use of pig fat than someone suggesting it might not be a good idea.

Of course things are serious, but "solutions" like those will just make them a great deal worse. AFAICR Islam is not the only religion with a thing about my porcine friends. Do you want to suggest some extensions of this policy? I don't but you obviously will approve of such a scheme.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
But capital punishment is not barbaric (unless you use medieval methods like drawing and quartering, or winching out your intestines. That would be barbaric.)

Nice to know your definition of barbaric. In some parts of the world we are striving toward leaving the medieval period behind, but look feel free to stay there, just dont advocate that the whole world should be as you wish.

You might want to read more on the details of execution methods that you apparently think are OK. Hanging for example. A topic in itself, the engineering of a hanging.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Thread starter):
we both agree that these 3 people deserve the capital punishment for what they’ve done.



Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 33):
as a Christian woman...

Interesting to see where your christian values end, and your lust for the death penalty begins.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 44):
Interesting to see where your christian values end, and your lust for the death penalty begins.

We as Christians feel that it is up to God to judge.

We just want to set up an early meeting for some people Big grin
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:52 pm

As an Australian, I will reply also to this question.

I completely agree (as usual) with Baroque's articulation of the untennable position of state sactioned killing. It amounts to, "we have to kill you for killing to show that killing is wrong".

Questions of degree do not change moral absolutes. Killing is wrong. The state takes the moral high ground when it condemns crimes and not when it repeats them. In my view, all arguments for capital punishment are specious and are but a thinly veilled smokescreen for a (perhaps altogether undestandable) thirst for vengence. Vengence, unfortunately does not render justice (c.f. morbid theatre of state executions in certain US states or the equally appalling public be-headings in Saudi Arabia (not used to the comparison?)).

Killing terrorists via state execution provides to Islamic Extremists the dramatized and stagecrafted "martydom" they so much desire and plays into the hands of their agenda, "Holy War with the West". Do you want to overcome Islamic extremism or just wallow in a few moments of hollow vengence. This is the longer term question.

[Edited 2006-08-11 13:57:45]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
what Howard says reflects on Australia but as QFF succinctly says, it does not reflect on a majority of Australians because we simply do not agree.

I understand that Australians in general are not pro death penalty, but for this particular matter, Howard appeared to be supporting (for whatever reason) the execution of Amrozi and his crew. Your PM is not consistent in this matter. He is sending flip flopping message abroad.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 44):
Interesting to see where your christian values end, and your lust for the death penalty begins.

Howard and Bush are both Christians too, yes? We all know Howard's view on the execution of the Bali bombers. I am 100% sure that Bush will support this execution too.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 45):
We as Christians feel that it is up to God to judge.

We just want to set up an early meeting for some people 

 bigthumbsup 
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:19 pm

If you allow the death penalty in some cases, where does it end? 'Terrorism' is subjective, so you'd have to have capital punishment for 'mass murder' offenses. If so, where's the limit? 50 deaths? 20? 2?

The arguments against the death penalty in individual murder cases apply to terrorist cases too.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 39):
The death penalty is a tough one. However, in this case it is kill them and kill those who attempt to kill us. Their war is against humanity. That itself, desrves death.

'Their war is against humanity' is subjective - they'd say it was against the West, not humanity as a whole.

'Kill those who try to kill us' doesn't apply to execution. We're not discussing shooting someone who's just about to blow themselves up on a train, we're talking about the execution of someone after the event.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 46):
Do you want to overcome Islamic extremism or just wallow in a few moments of hollow vengence. This is the longer term question.

It is interesting that you mentioned that. I read a few times that the American prison is becoming the recruitting ground for prospective terrorists.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/12/ltm.02.html
http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_Terr/dangerous_convictions.asp
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, bennett123, drew777, northstardc4m, SESGDL and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos