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jfk69
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 37):
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 35):
I am not trying to flame the Muslim religion,

I think you just did.

I'm sorry but I am going to have to disagree. This is strictly a suggestion to do to terrorists. If one is a true muslim who claims that Muslim is a religion of peace, then why wouldn't one want to disassociate themselves from these animals.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
You would have made the Indian mutiny a cake walk. Well done, with more contributions like this, matters could easily turn serious.

See that is always the problem. Damned if you do and Damned if you don't. It always seems to be that No, you can't do this because you will make it worse, but if you don't do anything then they win.

Tell me what we can do to not upset the terrorists or any sympathizers?
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 38):
Before these events, I was actually pro Israel, but I changed my position in a heartbeat once I found about out about their assaults towards the Christians in Lebanon. However I DO NOT support the Hezbollah.

What about the innocent Muslims being killed in Lebanon? Do you not support them? I am just asking because you seem to emphasise the phrase "Christians in Lebanon".

And surely you cannot pinpoint the words of one PM and generalise that to be the mood of the nation.

As for death penalty, I dont support it in this case as it will never stop future acts of terrorism. As has been pointed out earlier, most terrorists are uneducated people who have been brainwashed with the glory of martyrdom and life after death. Educate people, improve their economies, allow them to have a better life and you shall see a lot fewer terrorists. Forget religion for a moment, but ponder this, why are their few terrorists in educated and fairly well of societies. See, thats what I mean.

Peace.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 51):
What about the innocent Muslims being killed in Lebanon?

I support all innocent victims, both in Lebanon and Israel. But I have to admit once I heard the Christians are now being targetted, the first thing that I did was to find out how I could donate money to support them.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 51):
And surely you cannot pinpoint the words of one PM and generalise that to be the mood of the nation.

The thing is the leader of a country does reflects the people that he/she leads. I am sure that the people in Iran and Venezuela are not crazy like their leaders, but because Chavez and the other guy (what's his name again, the Iranian president?), both Venezuela and Iran have an unfavourable image worldwide.
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 52):
I support all innocent victims, both in Lebanon and Israel. But I have to admit once I heard the Christians are now being targetted, the first thing that I did was to find out how I could donate money to support them.

If you started donating without discriminating, you would have done your first bit in promoting world peace. I am not a Muslim, but I fail to see how an innocent Muslim victim is any different from an innocent Christian victim.

I do however agree on your views on how Iran gets a bad image due to its leaders. Most educated Iranians probably wouldnt concur with what their governments had to say.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 47):
Your PM is not consistent in this matter. He is sending flip flopping message abroad.

And this is my problem, how exactly? Listen lady, I didn't vote for the guy, and I never will.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 47):
Howard and Bush are both Christians too, yes? We all know Howard's view on the execution of the Bali bombers. I am 100% sure that Bush will support this execution too.

So that makes it all okay? The will of a flip-flopper (your word) and another leader elected by a minority justify your position? You're going to have to do better than that.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 50):
This is strictly a suggestion to do to terrorists.

Of course, but muslims generally would be severely offended by such a practice. Intentionally violating some of the central tenants of a religion as a form of "punishment" is quite abhorrent. Would you suggest that law enforcement officials deficate on bibles to teach violent christian fundamentalists a lesson?

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 50):
then why wouldn't one want to disassociate themselves from these animals.

They do...OFTEN!!!

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 52):
both Venezuela and Iran have an unfavourable image worldwide.

I do hope you're not trying to liken Australia to Venezuela and Iran.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 53):
If you started donating without discriminating, you would have done your first bit in promoting world peace.

Well it's my money and I can't afford to support all the innocent war victims worldwide.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 53):
I am not a Muslim, but I fail to see how an innocent Muslim victim is any different from an innocent Christian victim.

What about the innocent Jews in Israel?

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 54):
And this is my problem, how exactly? Listen lady, I didn't vote for the guy, and I never will.

Where did I mention that it's your personal problem?  Confused I understand that you didn't vote for him, but the fact remains, he is your PM and he reflects Australians in general.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 54):
The will of a flip-flopper (your word) and another leader elected by a minority justify your position?

Well Howard did send mixed signals regarding the execution of the Bali bombers, did he not? And regarding Bush (I'm not a big fan of his to btw), he did win the second election. Do you actually think John Kerry would oppose the execution of convicted terrorists, if he was the president of the USA?

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 54):
I do hope you're not trying to liken Australia to Venezuela and Iran.

I think you're being way too sensitive, when did I say Australia is similar to Venezuela or Iran?  Confused
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jfk69
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 54):
Of course, but muslims generally would be severely offended by such a practice. Intentionally violating some of the central tenants of a religion as a form of "punishment" is quite abhorrent. Would you suggest that law enforcement officials deficate on bibles to teach violent christian fundamentalists a lesson?

There would be outrage, but I hope people would be smart enough to know that their is a strict line for why they are doing this. Not to offend the religion, but rather to "offend" the terrorists or christian fundamentalists.
Tell me, what can the world do? How can the world punish terrorists, not offend the muslim religion and deter future attacks?
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:15 pm

I don't think anyone, regardless of what sins they have commited deserves the death sentence or torture of any kind.
Its just how I am really.
Prison is fine.
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 46):
Questions of degree do not change moral absolutes. Killing is wrong. The state takes the moral high ground when it condemns crimes and not when it repeats them. In my view, all arguments for capital punishment are specious and are but a thinly veiled smokescreen for a (perhaps altogether understandable) thirst for vengeance.

Super post OzG very well put. It really is that simple, killing is wrong.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 46):
Do you want to overcome Islamic extremism or just wallow in a few moments of hollow vengeance. This is the longer term question.

Shooting Amrosi will give many of his mates an effect similar to the rapture, and for who knows how long. Indonesian prisons are not nice places especially if you dont have money so keeping him in clink would have a double effect of beggaring his supporters as well as punishing him in a better way.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 47):
Your PM is not consistent in this matter. He is sending flip flopping message abroad.

I almost might agree with you there SG, but I think a better term would be a conflicted - that is not internally consistent - message. But that is "our" John! SG, let me ask you if you know why he is called Honest John - hint if you have red hair in Aus, you will like as not be known for ever more as Bluey or Blue.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 47):
We all know Howard's view on the execution of the Bali bombers. I am 100% sure that Bush will support this execution too.

I did try to explain that you don't know Howard's views and I counselled you to get him in a corner with the special truth serum and find out what his views really are. We would all probably be surprised. "He can take a set of circumstances and turn them to his advantage in a way that nobody else can" - Hewson, interviewed recently by Andrew Denton.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 48):
'Kill those who try to kill us' doesn't apply to execution. We're not discussing shooting someone who's just about to blow themselves up on a train, we're talking about the execution of someone after the event.

No, we are talking about tying someone to a tree (in this case), putting a blind fold over his eyes and shooting him. A sergeant will be standing by with a pistol for a finishing head shot - it is thought that this is done/needed in more than 50% of cases. It is a really civilised activity.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 50):
Tell me what we can do to not upset the terrorists or any sympathizers?

Start to understand what their problem is. Believe it or not they will tell you. As a matter of fact, OBL already has. Once it is into English, you likely still need a translation out of his florid and obscure style, but there is a meaning there. It is a meaning that has been articulated by many oppressed groups over the years.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 51):
And surely you cannot pinpoint the words of one PM and generalise that to be the mood of the nation.

In a perverse kind of way, you probably can with Howard but only if you reverse most of the meaning.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 52):
The thing is the leader of a country does reflects the people that he/she leads. I am sure that the people in Iran and Venezuela are not crazy like their leaders, but because Chavez and the other guy (what's his name again, the Iranian president?), both Venezuela and Iran have an unfavourable image worldwide.

No, No No NO and No again to allow for Howard, who presumably is lost in the syntax there. Iran, Venez, Hugo and Ahmad do not represent the views of their people. Of all those Chavez is probably closest to being numerically popular.

Megaphone diplomacy against Iran is the probable reason for Ahmad's victory and is shoring up the position of a person who is widely UNpopular. When will western countries stop meddling in the politics of countries that are supposed to be independent? Regime change is one of the most dangerous policies in the Bush suite of mayhem.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 55):
the fact remains, he is your PM and he reflects Australians in general.

Which causes me to ask which part of NO is it that you don't understand.

He was elected by about 60 to 70 parliamentarians (the exact number does not matter as PM. That position has no status under our constitution. He was also elected as a member of parliament by about 30,000 or so voters in a part of Sydney N of the harbour. One delicious thought is that due to moving electoral boundaries he might follow Bruce and be the second PM to lose his seat at an election. I am sorry to say he has effectively bribed and threatened his way to successive election victories, one of them with a minority of the votes cast. When he was treasurer in the Fraser government, he was associated with an election campaign based on the slogan of a fistful of dollars. He has not grown up since then.

Again, he represents Australia, but he does not represent Australians.
 
travelin man
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:26 am

I don't think you can say "John Howard respresents the views of Australia, as he was elected by Australians" on all specific issues.

It would be like GWB represents the views of Americans when it comes to stem cell research, because he was elected President. In fact upwards of 70% of Americans support more stem cell research, while the President (quite obviously) does not.

He does not represent (most) American's views on the subject, nor the official "American" view (whatever that is).

Sorry to appear to veer this off-topic, just trying to come up with a similar instance in which the leader of the country is out of step with the majority of the population on a particular issue.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution � Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 59):
Sorry to appear to veer this off-topic, just trying to come up with a similar instance in which the leader of the country is out of step with the majority of the population on a particular issue.

A very good example as it happens (or you may well have known. Howard also opposes stem cell research and again Aus voters support it. Odd coincidence, or not as the case might be!!
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
I did try to explain that you don't know Howard's views and I counselled you to get him in a corner with the special truth serum and find out what his views really are.

Since it would be very difficult to corner him anytime soon, all I know about PM Howard is what he had said to the media. So far this is what I know about him when it comes down to death penalty, he was against the Nguyen execution, he is for the Bali bombers execution, (mostlikely) he is going to object the Bali Nine executions, but he is not going to object Saddam Hussein execution (assuming that would be his punishment). Is it fair to say that the leader of Australia is sending mixed messages when it comes down to death penalty?

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 57):
Again, he represents Australia, but he does not represent Australians.

To a point I agree. A little while ago PM Howard made some racist comment about Singapore. Do I believe that he's a racist person? Yes. Do I think Australians in general are racist? NO. However, I still believe that on the international level the leader of a country does (to a point) represent the people that he/she leads.

[Edited 2006-08-11 19:02:18]
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baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 61):
Is it fair to say that the leader of Australia is sending mixed messages when it comes down to death penalty?

That is extremely fair. What I have been trying to explain is that
A. Howard does not speak for a majority of Australians on many things.
B. If you were actually able to find what he thought as opposed to what he said because he thought it would be good for votes you might find a different picture. And the votes are not the ones you think - they are the ones to keep his power base in his party, which may be a very muddy pond.

On racism, you probably never heard ex Foreign Minister Hayden's summary of racial views in Asia. A bit unkind but not far from the truth.

I hope that you don't think Singapore is free from racial prejudice. Indonesia has abundant racial views ranging from those on the Chinese to the Bataks, to those with rambut kriting - curly hair as I am sure you know. And you know the story about the creation and the distribution of hair types in Indonesia? Well that is quite instructive. And why do you think Moh Mahathir was so strict, it was in part to avoid racial tension overflowing again into violence.

What you would need to do is define what you mean by racism. Does he favour the KKK, certainly not. Does he have steroetypical views of certain groups, you bet. But who of us here can truthfully say they do not? Does he let those stereotype influence his actions. Ah, there is the question. But there is no doubt he is a complex person.

Somebody is dying to hoe into me there by asking how can someone who is small minded have a complex mind?

Your serve SG.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
A. Howard does not speak for a majority of Australians on many things.

I understand that. The reason why I started this thread is to find out what the average Australians feel about the mixed messages that he is sending out regarding death penalty. Next weeknd I'm going back to Bali and it would be interesting to chat with my Australian neighbours regarding the Bali bombers' executions.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
I hope that you don't think Singapore is free from racial prejudice.

S'pore is def not free from racial prejudice. As a Eurasian, I wish SQ would feature the different races of "Singapore Girls" for our marketing/ad campaigns. Most of the times they'd only pick Chinese girls, when we have drop dead gorgeous Malay, Indian and Eurasian stewardesses. Sporadically they'd choose non Chinese girls, but I wish they'd do it more often.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
Does he have steroetypical views of certain groups, you bet

We all have certain stereotype views on the different people. However if you are a leader of a great country such as Australia, I don't think it's a wise thing to make a racist comment openly, and get reported by the media (he called Singapore a backward Chinese port or something like that... this was a while back).

Anyway, it's getting late and I have to fly tomorrow. I'll check this thread at some point though. I Thank you all for participating, I really appreciate it. Safe flying everyone!
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QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 55):
Where did I mention that it's your personal problem?

When you said that as the leader of the country, what he says reflects on us all.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 55):
I think you're being way too sensitive, when did I say Australia is similar to Venezuela or Iran?

You discussed notions of political representation in Australia by comparing our political leaders to those of Iran and Venezuela. I was just curious as to where you believed that comparison ended.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 61):
Is it fair to say that the leader of Australia is sending mixed messages when it comes down to death penalty?

With regards to terrorism? Yes. With regards to putting people to death for drug offenses? No.

Again, drug offences of the kind that have made headlines lately do not warrant the death penalty, in Australia's view. That has been made clear on our part. You have to take into account the emotional impact of terrorism to understand why Howard may say the things he does. If he openly defies any suggestion of the death penalty for the Bali Bombers, he'd take a major political hit which could contribute to a loss at the next election.

But that is no reflection upon Australia generally, unless you make it so.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 61):
Do I believe that he's a racist person? Yes

So do I. The man is a seasoned racist, but as a christian you'd be familiar with the phrase "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". I believe your Prime Minister made some 'courageous' comments about Australia a few years ago. Something along the lines of us having to be 50% asian before we'd be taken seriously in the region?

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 63):
The reason why I started this thread is to find out what the average Australians feel about the mixed messages that he is sending out regarding death penalty.

I can see that was your honest motivation, but I also think you were trying to score a hit against critics of Singapore's capital punishment policy.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 55):
What about the innocent Jews in Israel?


Yes Id support any innocent person anywhere.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 55):
Well it's my money and I can't afford to support all the innocent war victims worldwide

I meant morally not monetarily.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 64):
but I also think you were trying to score a hit against critics of Singapore's capital punishment policy.

Hi again, I have a few minutes before I have to go to work. Here's the thing about the the drug law in Singapore (or any other SE Asian countries)... if you must be a drug mule (hey, we all have to make a living, right?) AVOID all the South East Asian countries at all cost!!! If you are convicted of drug smuggling, they're going to put you to death. Before you enter the SE Asian countries, the inflight announcement and the immigration form that you have to fill in will inform you that smuggling drugs in the region is a huge NO NO. Even if you're only transitting, avoid all the SE Asian countries. For eg the Nguyen bloke, he should have gone north to Hong Kong, Taipei, or even Japan from Cambodia on his way down to Australia. I know that it's a much longer route but those northern Asian countries do not impose death penalty on drug smugglers. You can whine and bitch about the strict drug law in SE Asian countries, but the truth is the local govt. will NOT change the law to suit you.

Another example is the three strike law in California (I think it applies to other states in the USA as well). If you must break the law, you can do it twice, but don't do it three times, because you're going to be screwed. Again, you can moan and bitch about the law, but I highly doubt that the state govt will change that 3 strike law anytime soon.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:30 pm

Singaporegirl - I think that what a lot of Singaporeans especially don't realise, is that while we recognise the your countrys right to have this rule, and while we understand the implications of smuggling drugs through Singapore, we object on moral grounds to the execution of people convicted of drug offences. That's not to say that we condone drug smuggling, dealing, or using; we just have different standards of punishment for certain crimes. We think it's unbecoming of a country of Singapore's status, and does little or nothing to impede the flow of drugs from producers to users.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 66):
If you must break the law, you can do it twice, but don't do it three times, because you're going to be screwed.

It's called mandatory sentencing, and there's a LOT that's wrong with it. The Northern Territory government instituted the practice in the 1990s, and it led to the downfall of the government at the subsequent election. It removes the power of judges to sentence convicted persons according to the merits of the individual case, and is a direct attack on the independence of the judiciary. It constitutes a violation of the separation of powers.

The differences our two countries have over the death penalty are cultural, and it's very likely the present arrangement (you put someone to death, we protest loudly) will continue. It's just the way it is, and our governments understand it.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 67):
we object on moral grounds to the execution of people convicted of drug offences. That's not to say that we condone drug smuggling, dealing, or using; we just have different standards of punishment for certain crimes. We think it's unbecoming of a country of Singapore's status, and does little or nothing to impede the flow of drugs from producers to users.

Do you have evidence to support that allegation? Is there a drug problem in Singapore comparable to other nearby countries that do not have such drastic measures?

I love Singapore. It is the one country in Asia where I would gladly live with my family. The crime is low, it is clean, everything works, and I think that is largely because of the draconian measures taken against criminals.

Do you remember the story from 15 or 20 years ago about the American kid who went over there and was caught spraying graffiti? He was sentenced to a dozen lashes or something like that and the whole international community got into an uproar about it, saying how it was cruel, that he was just a kid (he was 18 or 19 as I recall) he didn't know what he was doing, blah blah blah. Singapore executed the sentence and then handed him back to his parents.

Now seriously, do you think that that kid would paint grafitti again in Singapore? I don't think so. Now, what if the punishment had been more like what we consider "civilized"? He spends the night in jail, or the police calls his parents and he is made to scrub the wall clean (actually, I think he tagged a car). Somehow, I do not believe that it would have had the same deterant effect. And the public bruhaha of course warned all the other juvinile delinquents that they had better resist their spraycan fetish if they have any attachment to the health of their buttcheeks.

Deterance works ONLY IF the punishment is just a little bit disproportionate to the magnitude of the crime. If the fine for illegal parking is $50 bucks, you might take the risk if you are in a hurry. But if it's $50,000, there is no way in hell you will do it, right?

And if some guy offers you $10,000 to smuggle drugs into Singapore - possibly more money than you ever earned in your life, you might consider it if the punishment were "civilized", like a few months or years in jail in the unlikely event you get caught. But if the price is execution on the first offence, I doubt you'll get many volunteers. As it is, Singapore, in a fit of "civilization" gave the guy two passes and two warnings before the third time, and I'm sure he was warned repeatedly what would happen to him the third time around.

He sounds like a Darwin Award winner to me. If you do something illegal where it's "three strikes, you're history", and you keep getting caught and you keep doing it, that rates about a 9.95 on my Stupidfuck-o-meter.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 68):
Do you have evidence to support that allegation? Is there a drug problem in Singapore comparable to other nearby countries that do not have such drastic measures?

Can you seriously tell me that there aren't any drugs in Singapore?

My comment was more specifically a reference to other states in the region who have similar sentencing policies (Thailand, Indonesia etc), where drugs are everywhere. Of course Singapore's battle against drugs is nowhere near the scale of the aforementioned south east asian states, it would seem that the policy you champion has mixed results. But the results aren't the issue here. Law always has a moral and ethical dimension. You can chop off the hands of a 10 year old pickpocket and he'll never do it again, but is that a fair punishment? Who determines what is and what is not a fair punishment? That's the crux of the debate, and it's from this that Australia and Singapore have continued their long standing disagreement.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 68):
Deterance works ONLY IF the punishment is just a little bit disproportionate to the magnitude of the crime. If the fine for illegal parking is $50 bucks, you might take the risk if you are in a hurry. But if it's $50,000, there is no way in hell you will do it, right?

You talk about mandatory sentencing, this is an interesting example you have given. Say you were stupid enough to rack up two parking fines. You go to court, say you're sorry and are given a warning. What if one day there was some medical emergency and you had to rush someone to a hospital. Imagine that there are no free parking spaces so you have to park in a non-parking zone. You would be sentenced to pay that $50,000 fine despite the extenuating circumstances. Mandatory sentencing removes discretionary power from the judiciary. It's wrong.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 68):
As it is, Singapore, in a fit of "civilization" gave the guy two passes and two warnings before the third time, and I'm sure he was warned repeatedly what would happen to him the third time around.

What on earth are you talking about? Van Nguyen was never given three warnings, he was sentenced to death straight off the bat. Australia objected numerous times on moral grounds, but those objections eventually proved fruitless. It was a human tragedy, both in terms of the circumstances that led to this young man becoming a drug mule, the stupidity he displayed in going ahead with the drug run, and the sentence given by the Singaporean authorities.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 68):
He sounds like a Darwin Award winner to me. If you do something illegal where it's "three strikes, you're history", and you keep getting caught and you keep doing it, that rates about a 9.95 on my Stupidfuck-o-meter.

Look, you don't seem to get it. Everyone agrees that the rules are there, the rules are clear, and the death sentence will be given out. But that doesn't make the punishment just nor moral.

We're not going to agree, so let's just agree to disagree.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 69):
But the results aren't the issue here.

Results are THE issue, and the ONLY issue. The Justice system exists to convince people that it is not worth it to commit a crime. In order to do that, the sentences MUST be disproportionate to the crime, by definition.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 69):
What if one day there was some medical emergency and you had to rush someone to a hospital. Imagine that there are no free parking spaces so you have to park in a non-parking zone. You would be sentenced to pay that $50,000 fine despite the extenuating circumstances. Mandatory sentencing removes discretionary power from the judiciary. It's wrong.

I never said anything about mandatory sentencing. I'm just saying that if the punishment is strict enough, people will not break them (except for a few really really stupid people).

As far as an emergeny goes, that's what your hazard lights are for. Park in front of the hospital with your lights flashing, and that makes sure everyone knows that it is an emergency, and you will be back as soon as you can. The cop seeing that will probably wait for you and ask that you explain your emergency instead of writing you a ticket right away.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
DernierVirage
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:28 pm

I come late to this thread, but the subject of this discussion has always interested me.

It seems to me that if a country has laws that are clear, unequivocal and consistently applied, then there is no excuse at all if you are then obliged to take the consequences of breaking these laws. You may of course, as an outsider, disagree with the laws in question, but that does not mean that you deserve any special treatment. As regards drugs in Singapore, you need to be deaf and blind to be unaware of the risks you take if you bring in drugs, it is clearly stated before you arrive. The fact that the law is different in your own country is an interesting discussion point, but is totally irrelevant to the government of Singapore.

As it happens, I also agree with the Singapore approach - among other things, there is a respect for other people's property there that is more and more absent elsewhere, in France for example. (Try parking a nice new car in Paris and see what I mean....).


Just my input, apologies if the English is not "smooth" enough !
 
cfalk
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 71):
As it happens, I also agree with the Singapore approach - among other things, there is a respect for other people's property there that is more and more absent elsewhere, in France for example. (Try parking a nice new car in Paris and see what I mean....).

LOL, That reminds me when I was transfered to Paris nearly 10 years ago. I drove my new car (a BMW 328 Coupé) to Paris for my first week on the job, and the next week drove it right back to Switzerland and traded it for my wife's old, beat-up Jeep. Paris is a town where you either drive a tank or a car you don't give a damn about having banging up!

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 71):
Just my input, apologies if the English is not "smooth" enough !

No problem with your English. Bienvenu à A-net!
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
DernierVirage
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 72):
Paris is a town where you either drive a tank or a car you don't give a damn about having banging up!

I have the second category !!!

But it is still sad that we have fallen so far in terms of civilised behaviour, especially when I compare our situation with Hong Kong and Singapore ! That said, you are lucky in Switzerland also...
 
cfalk
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 73):
That said, you are lucky in Switzerland also...

Not for long - I'm moving next week to the USA, where on top of everything else, they don't know how to drive! Big grin
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
Results are THE issue, and the ONLY issue.

No, they're not. You're dealing with people's lives here. Law as a deterrent is a potent tool, but it's not the only reason it exists. I would have thought it was fairly obvious that in many cases, a crime is a symptom of a wider social problem.

I still stand by my government in protesting the use of the death penalty internationally. It's barbaric.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
I never said anything about mandatory sentencing

Yes, you did....

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 68):
If you do something illegal where it's "three strikes, you're history", and you keep getting caught and you keep doing it, that rates about a 9.95 on my Stupidfuck-o-meter.

That's mandatory sentencing, and you don't really seem to be very against it!

Interestingly though, you mentioned above that you would "explain" things to the police officer assuming he had waited around for hours for you to return to the car (hazard lights or no hazard lights - you would probably have gotten a ticket). Surely you can see there is a place for judicial discretion in the justice system?

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 71):
It seems to me that if a country has laws that are clear, unequivocal and consistently applied, then there is no excuse at all if you are then obliged to take the consequences of breaking these laws.

Say a country wants to clamp down on a certain ethnic group. They put signs up everywhere saying they will round up those people if they are caught outside of their homes between the hours of 7am-11pm. The signs are big, clear, and leave no doubt in anyone's mind that if you break the curfew you're in big trouble. Every time the police catch a member of this ethnic group outside of their home during curfew hours, they're taken away to prison and never seen again.

This seems to fit the criteria you've put forward for a law that one would be "obliged" to accept. Does that mean the law is moral? No. So why should we simply sit by and accept it?

It's the same for the death penalty and with mandatory sentencing. They're well advertised, applied consistently, and clear - but that doesn't make them morally right.

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 71):
The fact that the law is different in your own country is an interesting discussion point, but is totally irrelevant to the government of Singapore.

Not when they want to execute my own countrymen.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
DernierVirage
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 75):
This seems to fit the criteria you've put forward for a law that one would be "obliged" to accept. Does that mean the law is moral? No. So why should we simply sit by and accept it?

I agree that there is a point where one country should apply pressure in such circumstances, of course the problem is of course where to draw the line. I admit that I had less extreme cases in mind.


It's the same for the death penalty and with mandatory sentencing. They're well advertised, applied consistently, and clear - but that doesn't make them morally right.

That of course depends on your viewpoint, and - to take your point above - I don't think that any country would realistically try to pressurise another on this sort of matter. All I woul say is that even if we believe that certain laws of ceratin countries are immoral, that does not give us any claim to special treatment if we break these laws
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 76):
I don't think that any country would realistically try to pressurise another on this sort of matter.

Mine does. Often.

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 76):
All I woul say is that even if we believe that certain laws of ceratin countries are immoral, that does not give us any claim to special treatment if we break these laws

Define "special treatment". Australia lobbied the President of Singapore to grant clemency after the Van Nguyen drugs trial. It's a perfectly open legal avenue open to all, although some saw that as "special treatment".

I'm over this thread, I've made my position pretty clear, but some of you just don't get it.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting DernierVirage (Reply 71):
Just my input, apologies if the English is not "smooth" enough !

C'est formidable mon vieux.

As the thread has moved more and more to drugs, there is an additional duplicity to Howard that SG may not know about but I am more than happy to mention. Most (yes I know not all) experts on drugs insist that it is a medial and not a law and order problem. We here like to think that Switzerland and Holland more or less demonstrate that is correct, even if it is not an easy path.

Howard has insisted on blocking moves such as legal injecting rooms (they cut down both on overdose deaths and the spread of diseases such as HIV and Hep) and pushed what is known here as the Laura Norder issue. So he cannot be too surprised when Singapore and Indonesia agree with him on that however, misguided I might think they ALL are.

Basically thanks to treating drug taking as a crime, the US now has a prison population the size of a middle sized state in the Union. And the nearest to having had a sane policy seems to have been none other than the dear Old Trickie Dickie!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
But this isn't the sort of issue that you, as a Singaporean should be trying to score points with; if that's what you're trying to do.

I thought this wouldn't be an intersting thread but with 72 replies it caught my eye.

I have witnessed Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians score points with the subject of the death penalty against Singapore. I intend to play.

My view is that there does seem to be one rule for someone of Australian, British, American etc... nationality and for those of a foreign nationality.

Taking the example of the Australian government this is clear. We heard a lot of hoo-ha over Van Nguyen and his 340g of Heroin but as SingaporeGirl states in her thread starter, the PM of Australia does not oppose the death penalty in the case of the Bali bombers.

Considering that Australia and most nations are opposed to the death penalty and like to be seen as anti-capital punishment, this comment from John Howard seems to at the very least suggest that when it comes to foreigners, Australia doesn't really care either way.

One could argue that this is the same for 99% of governments around the world.

My view is that they were in Indonesia and if that's Indonesia's law then that's the law. Get over yourself. How dare anyone try and impose their version of the law on another sovereign country. One may find it barbaric and all the other negative adjectives but so what. If you don't like the place, don't go there. If you make it your "quest du jour" then get a life and do something more meaningful.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:20 pm

Several issues present themselves as to the death penalty and it's application including in the Bali and Singapore situations.
1) Is the penalty proportionate to the crime. Someone that is properly convicted of and really were the main persons whom carried out an act of terrorism, killing hundreds is not the same as someone whom had drugs on them.
2) Was the accused and arrested person properly treated by police? Was the evidence properly obtained? All countries (including the USA) have that problem. Sometimes police can force confessions, use torture or corserive methods, screw around with evidence just to get someone they 'believe' is the one that committed the crime.
3) After being charged, and in preparation for trial, did the accused have proper, independent and quality legal representation. Once again, that is a serious problem in most of the world especially when facing death penalty crimes.
4) The mental health of the accused/convicted of death penalty charges. Can a person who can rationalize the murder of mass numbers of people really be sane?
5) Are you convicting the right person? In the USA, we have seen many convicted and sentenced to the Death penalty who with DNA and other evidence presented later, found to be innocent of a crime.
6) Is it a question of justice or revenge? That is one of the most controversial issue as to the use of the death penalty.
7) Is it applied evenly. In the USA, most states have the death penalty for state charged crimes, but only some of them actually have carried out death sentences and 2 of 3 are in Texas, Florida, Virginia and Califronia. Other states (I think 13) do not have the death penalty on the books.
These are all issues we need consider in determining the application and support of the death penalty.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
Considering that Australia and most nations are opposed to the death penalty and like to be seen as anti-capital punishment, this comment from John Howard seems to at the very least suggest that when it comes to foreigners, Australia doesn't really care either way.

We keep telling you that Howard is Howard and the vast majority are different.

Glad you mentioned Indonesia. We have a problem with illegal fishing vessels, mostly from Roti but also Bugis and a few Thais and other countries. There are a number of problems, they are depleting our fish stocks, they come ashore and could bring bird flu and other diseases and many of their boats have infestation of tiger mussels - very nasty they are.

So as it is our jurisdiction and none of, for example, your business, how about we decide that illegal fisherman will be sentenced to death. And just to get with the Singapore sling as it were, we will make the death penalty mandatory.

That presumably would be OK and fine by you?

Just before you answer, you might care to check the nationalities of those awaiting execution in Indonesia. You might be surprised, or then again, if you know Bali as you say you do, not. Selemat malam
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 81):
That presumably would be OK and fine by you?

It's your laws and you make them. Why the hell would you care about my views? Furthermore, an outsider's views doesn't matter anyway.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
VHOJC
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 82):

Yet everytime SQ fails to gain rights to SYD-LAX your up in arms about how wrong the Australian government are  Yeah sure
When there is nothing left to burn...set yourself on fire!!!
 
pawsleykat
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 1):
The death sentence is the ideal "result" IMO, they deserve it.

I totally agree. I had friends in Jakarta at the time so it was a pretty frightening ordeal. I am usually opposed to the death penalty, but in cases like this, then hell, go for it. Not to sound morbid and immature though, what will happen to them, will they be hanged or decapitated??  Confused Thanx in advance

JG
First Class passengers are my favourites. They can't get any further forward without an ATPL.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Pawsleykat (Reply 84):
Not to sound morbid and immature though, what will happen to them, will they be hanged or decapitated??

Answered in reply 58, to the best of my knowledge. There is some disagreement about how many in the firing squad - probably 5 - and how many live rounds (range 1-4).

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
No, we are talking about tying someone to a tree (in this case), putting a blind fold over his eyes and shooting him. A sergeant will be standing by with a pistol for a finishing head shot - it is thought that this is done/needed in more than 50% of cases. It is a really civilised activity.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
My view is that there does seem to be one rule for someone of Australian, British, American etc... nationality and for those of a foreign nationality.

How so? Because our government uses freely available legal avenues to lobby the governments of countries about to put Australians to death? I think that's a reasonable thing to expect of one's government. You would refuse consular assistance if you found yourself in a situation where you'd been arrested in a foreign country? This is called diplomacy, and it's one of the reasons why we have embassies and departments of foreign affairs.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
this comment from John Howard seems to at the very least suggest that when it comes to foreigners, Australia doesn't really care either way

All countries have to pursue their national interests. Governments advocate on behalf of their citizens who are being tried for various crimes every day. Your government does it, as do most others. Australia can't logistically run a top-level executive government campaign against every person around the world who is facing the death penalty. It's not practical. Your belief that in order for Australia's position to be valid we would be required to do this, is unreasonable and indicative of your natural preference for the death penalty over life imprisonment for certain crimes.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
but as SingaporeGirl states in her thread starter, the PM of Australia does not oppose the death penalty in the case of the Bali bombers.

And as we've pointed out, that's an unhelpful position that all of Australia doesn't necessarily agree with.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
My view is that they were in Indonesia and if that's Indonesia's law then that's the law. Get over yourself.

Get over yourself? Look pal, this isn't about ego, this is about people's lives. Of course Indonesia and any other country has a sovereign right to create any law it pleases, but that doesn't mean that other government's can't encourage them to explore other methods of criminal punishment.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 79):
One may find it barbaric and all the other negative adjectives but so what. If you don't like the place, don't go there.

The thing is, we do like these places, and we do like to visit there. But again, that's no reason why we should be silent on these issues. Like every other country we have certain international goals, and one of those is to encourage countries in our region to abandon the death penalty. It's as simple as that. It will always be that way and the policy will never change.

On this issue (as I've said above), Australia and Singapore, Thailand, and Indonesia are in a state of perpetual diplomatic conflict.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 80):
These are all issues we need consider in determining the application and support of the death penalty.

An excellent analysis.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 82):
Why the hell would you care about my views?

Because you're a human being and presumably have a moral code. You can comment freely (as you have done).

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
Because our government uses freely available legal avenues to lobby the governments of countries about to put Australians to death?



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
Your belief that in order for Australia's position to be valid we would be required to do this



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
but that doesn't mean that other government's can't encourage them to explore other methods of criminal punishment.

I agree, however, if you go to such lengths to protect your own citizens (as you rightly should) but not be as vocal or even mute when it comes to foreigners (as I pointed out was probably the case of 99% of government around the world), then taking a public line of anti-capital punishment seems rather hollow. It should really be adjusted to "no capital punishment for our citizens but do what you like to the others".

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
but that doesn't mean that other government's can't encourage them to explore other methods of criminal punishment.



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
But again, that's no reason why we should be silent on these issues



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
Because you're a human being and presumably have a moral code. You can comment freely (as you have done).

Again, I agree. However, when expressing your views, justimagine that the government (in this case Indonesia) is standing in front of you with two fingers up.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Zone1
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 19):
That 340 gm of heroin can in fact kill 200 people or more. In your opinion does it make a difference if a terrorist is killing 1 person or 200 people?

The difference is you use the helping verb "can" or "could" with the smuggler but "did" with the terrorists. The people that die from drug overdoses are fully aware that they could die from it. The people killed by the terrorists were fully innocent.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 33):

And if any of you are wondering why I'm flying the Lebanese flag is because as a Christian woman I support the innocent Christian Lebanese that are being attacked/killed at the moment.

I was really wondering what was going on with the Christians in Lebanon. Thank you for the links.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 63):
S'pore is def not free from racial prejudice. As a Eurasian, I wish SQ would feature the different races of "Singapore Girls" for our marketing/ad campaigns. Most of the times they'd only pick Chinese girls, when we have drop dead gorgeous Malay, Indian and Eurasian stewardesses. Sporadically they'd choose non Chinese girls, but I wish they'd do it more often.

Being a sporadic reader of the two more popular Singaporean blogs, It seems like racial prejudice is fairly rampant in Singapore--some people just seem downright mean. Do you get derogatory comments for being married to a Caucasian?

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 66):
Taipei

You can get executed in Taiwan for smuggling drugs.
/// U N I T E D
 
cedarjet
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
What makes us better is:
1. The REASONS for which we kill.
2. The MANNER in which we kill.

Bollocks. The person who's killed is no less dead cos of the "reasons" or the "manner". Killing a person = killing a person, whether it's state sanctioned or not. You can justify it any way you want ("reasons" indeed) but it doesn't change the end result.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 89):
Bollocks. The person who's killed is no less dead cos of the "reasons" or the "manner". Killing a person = killing a person, whether it's state sanctioned or not. You can justify it any way you want ("reasons" indeed) but it doesn't change the end result.

And apologies don't help much if you make an error! See the actions of the Gov of IL recently. In one celebrated case, a final year journalist student showed in her thesis that the key witness could not have seen what the court accepted the witness saw - there being a large solid object in the line of sight. Nobody bothered to look.

Possibly with Amrosi there are no doubts, but somehow I doubt even that. With Sukarmaran and co, they are likely guilty, but the (police) shooting of a accomplice in S Jakarta and the departure of Cherry Likit for Thailand make one wonder who really did what in that case. Executing the two convicted could be a very convenient move.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):
I'd much rather violent criminals spend the rest of their lives locked up in a cell, not because it's a cop out, but because it shows we're better and more compassionate people than they are.

Question for you QF. With whose money will be supporting their existence in jail? If a member of your family (mother, father, etc..) is killed by someone, they are found guilty and spend the rest of their life in jail, how do you feel about money you earn to make sure they are kept alive. Fed meals daily, has the ability to live, breath and talk with others, while your family member is gone forever?

I would find it extremely difficult to keep the ones who killed alive. Compassion or not. They showed no compassion to you and your loved ones. Or worse yet, they showed no remorse.
You can't cure stupid
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 91):
Question for you QF. With whose money will be supporting their existence in jail?

Funds collected from national taxpayers, I presume. My personal contribution would be incredibly minimal, but to keep someone like that in jail would be worth every penny.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 91):
If a member of your family (mother, father, etc..) is killed by someone, they are found guilty and spend the rest of their life in jail, how do you feel about money you earn to make sure they are kept alive.

I want them to be kept alive so they could suffer the day to day hell that is prison.

I'm just not a bloodthirsty person, and I never have been. If you are, that's fine - but I'm not. As I said above, the way we treat the worst of the worst is a reflection of who we are, and we're better than murderers.

I'm not a christian, but there's something to be said for righteousness.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 92):
As I said above, the way we treat the worst of the worst is a reflection of who we are, and we're better than murderers.

A noble thought. However, have you considered chucking the guilt away to the person who actually gives out the punishment and/or actually kills the person who is sentenced to capital punishment? It could make you feel better.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 93):
However, have you considered chucking the guilt away to the person who actually gives out the punishment and/or actually kills the person who is sentenced to capital punishment?

No. I think that's weak. If that's your position, then that's pretty pathetic.

If I'm prepared to be compassionate enough to oppose the death penalty for murderers, and rapists (or even drug dealers), then I can hardly drop my beliefs when it comes to feeling compassion for an honest prison guard or soldier. Why subject them to that? I've spoken with some of the people involved in the last execution in this country (which happened in 1967) and they're still extremely disturbed by what went on. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Are you saying you would?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
baroque
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 92):
I'm just not a bloodthirsty person, and I never have been. If you are, that's fine - but I'm not. As I said above, the way we treat the worst of the worst is a reflection of who we are, and we're better than murderers.

If there were no other reason to oppose the death penalty this would be it, I don't want to be a murderer. Shooting Amrosi reduces the state of Indonesia (not many of its citizens I hasten to add) to that of the bomb plotters sitting around their prayer room fixing up the details of how to blow up a night club, probably eating nasi putih, rujak and chicken wings. To my mind, the crazy fervour of the bomb plotters has chilling similarities to that of a state executing prisoners.

QFF, I am glad you replied to SG, I don't think I would have been as polite.

It reminds me of a Giles cartoon from the mid 50s in the UK. Giles drew a family that inter alia had Grandma, always in black and with an umbrella, and a horrid little kid called Butch. The family are departing a town hall after a meeting about the death penalty, I think that Bentley had just been hanged for a crime committed by a juvenile at a time he was under arrest. As Grandma walks out, Butch announces "My Grandma says hang the lot of them". Sad to say, there seem to be a lot of Grandmas still around. It would be a mark of progress if there were fewer of them.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
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RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:03 am

Wow, I'm kind of surprised that this thread is still going. I'm still traveling but I will try to respond to some of the responses here:

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 88):
Being a sporadic reader of the two more popular Singaporean blogs, It seems like racial prejudice is fairly rampant in Singapore--some people just seem downright mean.

I think in a lot of Asian countries, race relation is still a very difficult thing to deal with. Even a country like Japan, I have a friend who's Indian Singaporean and he was living in Tokyo for 2 years and he told me that he was miserable through out his stay there because he felt like he was 'looked down' a lot.

In Singapore, 1 out of 4 people are foreigners. They could be the construction workers coming from the sub Indian continent, maids from the Philippines or Indonesia, to the white collar workers coming from various Western and Asian countries. Without a doubt how most people treat the 'poorer' foreigners is very differently compared to their more well educated counterparts.

Actually it's kind of funny that my next door neighbour is this American banker, he's been in Singapore for over 10 years and posseses Singaporean permanent resident documents, and if you call him an immigrant, he would be livid! He still prefers the term 'expatriate'.  rotfl  IMO once you obtain a permanent resident status of any country other than your own, you are now an immigrant.

I believe when you ask questions regarding race relation, you'd get different answers, depending on who you ask. If you ask that question to a native American, most likely you are going to get a different answer, from a Caucasian American.

Anyway, back to the topic...

I didn't expect any of us to change our view(s) when it comes down to a serious matter, such as the death penalty. We have different opinions and (hopefully) present them in a polite manner. As long as we can discuss the issue without insulting each other, I can certainly respect the different opinions that other people have. I think we all have been very consistent in our beliefs. However in my opinion Mr. Howard is not consistent when it comes down to death penalty. He once said regarding Amrozi's verdict, "If the law of Indonesia requires that he be executed, then I regard that as appropriate,". It seems that he has a set of rules for people convicted of drug smugglings, murders and he has different set of rules for convicted terrorists. If the law of Indonesia requires that the Bali Nine to be executed, would he think that would be appropriate as well? I will include another link from an Australian source regarding Mr. Howard views on the Bali bombers execution:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/23/1090464869167.html

I actually wonder about one thing... if (knock on the wood three times), and this is a HUGE if, a terrorist group blew up a bomb in downtown Sidney and killed hundreds of innocent civillians, I wonder what Mr. Howard's approach is going to be dealing with the type punishment that these terrorists will get? He seems to be pro death penalty when it comes down to convicted terrorists abroad.

Once again I thank you everyone for participating. I will check this thread again in a couple of day. Safe flying everyone!
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 96):
It seems that he has a set of rules for people convicted of drug smugglings, murders and he has different set of rules for convicted terrorists.

I think that's pretty accurate. Although, where did you get murder from? I haven't seen any highly publicised international murder trials recently, involving Australians.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 96):
Sidney

Aren't you Singapore Airlines cabin crew?

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 96):
I wonder what Mr. Howard's approach is going to be dealing with the type punishment that these terrorists will get?

We have an independent judiciary in this country for this very reason. I can't speculate on what terrorists would get, although I'd say you'd be 100% correct to assume "life without parole".
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
singaporegirl
Topic Author
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 97):
where did you get murder from?

On the first link that I've included, on the last sentence it stated: In Vietnam, Trinh Huu is facing execution for drug trafficking and an unnamed man is facing murder charges in Lebanon.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 97):
Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 96):Sidney

Ooops sorry, I'm beyond tired at this point, but can't sleep yet.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 97):
"life without parole"

That's what I thought. Somewhere on this thread, I've included 2 links

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/12/ltm.02.html
http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_Terr/dangerous_convictions.asp

The Americans prisons are becoming the recruiting ground of possible terrorists. What would be the best way to make sure that convicted terrorists not to recruit new members in prison? If I'm not mistaken the shoe bomber person (what's his name again?) became a Muslim while in prison. Same as the African American shooter in DC, he too became a (extremist) Muslim while incarcerated. All they need is one (gullible) person to be converted to become a terrorist and once out of prison that person might accomplish a terrorist's activity and kill innocent people.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Bali Bombers Execution – Australian View

Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:19 am

Singaporegirl -

Are you suggesting to us that we should put prisoners to death to prevent them being exposed to extremist islamic fundamentalism while in prison?

QFF
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