It looks like Kieth Ellison form MN will be the first Muslim to join the ranks of the US House.

He won his primary, and the expectations are that he will win the election in November.

I think it is more of a "non-issue" but on the other hand, it could have a far reaching effect on the way the US is viewed.

http://www.keithellison.org/index.htm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter): it could have a far reaching effect on the way the US is viewed.

Such as? I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1): Such as? I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.

Well for starters some in the international community would go "Gee, look, americans aren't the pile of intolerent, unwashed masses we thought they were!"

 

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 2): Well for starters some in the international community would go "Gee, look, americans aren't the pile of intolerent, unwashed masses we thought they were!"

Don't get your hopes up  

This is probably not very PC, but is this gentleman from an Islamic background in general, or a recent convert ?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3): This is probably not very PC, but is this gentleman from an Islamic background in general, or a recent convert ?

"A Detroit native, Ellison grew up in a Catholic household before converting to Islam as a 19-year-old student at Wayne State UniversitY He's quick to point out that he adheres to the religion's more moderate Sunni branch.

"Islam is as diverse as any Christianity is," said Ellison, who would be the first Muslim in Congress, according to U.S. Senate historian Donald Ritchie.
"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...29/ap/politics/mainD8IHOJ5O0.shtml

[Edited 2006-09-14 19:12:06]

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 2): Well for starters some in the international community would go "Gee, look, americans aren't the pile of intolerent, unwashed masses we thought they were!"

Well, some are though!  

Be that as it may, in 2004 we had a Persian-American run for Congress here in Oregon. I believe she lost because she's a neo-con, not because of her background. Her TV ads unabashedly told her family's story of immigration and embracing America.

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/March/Ameri/index.html

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4): "A Detroit native, Ellison grew up in a Catholic household before converting to Islam as a 19-year-old student at Wayne State UniversitY He's quick to point out that he adheres to the religion's more moderate Sunni branch.

OIC. A wannabe. I dismiss him with a "Bah" and a wave of my paw.

I read about this. I am not a huge fan of anyone that wears there religion on there sleeves. I just hope Congressman Keith Ellison doesn't let his strict Muslim beliefs interfere with making the right decisions.
I wish Congressman Martin Sabo would have stayed.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6): OIC. A wannabe. I dismiss him with a "Bah" and a wave of my paw.

Why is he a "wannabe"? Doesn't Islam encourage people to join their religion?

You've kinda lost me.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8): Why is he a "wannabe"? Doesn't Islam encourage people to join their religion?

That's what a lot want us to believe. JGPH1A is correct. The hard-core Muslims think of these converts and Nation Of Islam types as a joke (and they are). They may still get a pass to Mecca and all but are they really accepted?
I don't like the fact that he converted from Catholism either. When I was in college, I met a lot of these kind of students and yes they were just as critical of Catholics as they were of Jews.
It would be interesting how he votes on issues concerning woman's rights/equality, abortion rights, privacy and laws pertaining to vices. Muslim women aren't exactly 'liberated'.

the international community doesnt think that. thats absurd

Quoting TNNH (Reply 10): the international community doesnt think that. thats absurd

No kidding...    hence:   at the end of my post...

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8): Why is he a "wannabe"? Doesn't Islam encourage people to join their religion?

Most of us were born into and brought up with some kind of religious tradition, however wishy-washy, and that's fine - it's a cultural thing. I have no problem with people following a religion. I have a problem with people changing their religion - it implies that they consider that religion is actually important enough to do something about. Religion should be a hobby, like collecting stamps, harmless but non-intrusive into actual real life. I mistrust people who take it so seriously they actually go to the trouble of switching. It smacks disturbingly of fanaticism. One wonders what point he is trying to prove.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4): He's quick to point out that he adheres to the religion's more moderate Sunni branch.

"Moderate" huh? I wonder if anyone told him that the women who wear full coverings with cages over their faces are Sunni? Or perhaps that the countries where women are the most discriminated against, like Saudi Arabia, are Sunni?

JGPH1A:
I agree with a lot of what you say. I know when i was in college, a lot of students that converted to Islam did it for 'shock value' or to get attention because it was so different from they way were raised.
Kinda like getting a bunch of tattoos and nose piercings. 
I would have thought that Keith Ellison would have outgrown this Muslim thing by the time he got to law school.
As a Catholic, he should have known better.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5): Be that as it may, in 2004 we had a Persian-American run for Congress here in Oregon. I believe she lost because she's a neo-con, not because of her background. Her TV ads unabashedly told her family's story of immigration and embracing America. http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/....html

"Aunt Ameri -- our community's own Uncle Tom"

Isn't it nice to see that hateful article and the premise it puts forth that if you are from a certain ethnic or racial background, but don't think a certain way, you are a traitor. Wouldn't it be nice if the left lived by its own claims of tolerance and inclusion by celebrating the simple fact that a herebefore unrepresented minority runs for (or has been elected to) Congress?

As far as Ellison is concerned, I have nothing against Muslims in Congress, In fact I wish there were a few in there. But this guy is pretty radical left:

Quote: I am calling for an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

Never mind that all logically thinking persons, Republican, Democrat and everyone in between all agree that immediate withdrawal would be the dumbest thing we could possibly do.

Elsewhere, he believes that our borders should be open to anyone who wants to cross it, and rejects any attempts at controlling the border.

He wants state-run healthcare for all, on the British model.

He thinks that federal mandates and more money will correct the imbalance of educational results between minorities and white kids.

He argues that we should try to understand criminals rather than be tough on them.

Sorry, but, white, black, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim, I can't support that agenda.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6): OIC. A wannabe. I dismiss him with a "Bah" and a wave of my paw.

That is very big of you no?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12): Most of us were born into and brought up with some kind of religious tradition, however wishy-washy, and that's fine - it's a cultural thing. I have no problem with people following a religion. I have a problem with people changing their religion - it implies that they consider that religion is actually important enough to do something about. Religion should be a hobby, like collecting stamps, harmless but non-intrusive into actual real life. I mistrust people who take it so seriously they actually go to the trouble of switching. It smacks disturbingly of fanaticism. One wonders what point he is trying to prove.

Most of us were born into and brought up with some kind of respect towards others and their wishes. Having said that, I will refrain form saying what could only be construed as being rude regarding the comment you have said. I wont even wave my "paw" as you say.

Thank you very much.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15): Isn't it nice to see that hateful article and the premise it puts forth that if you are from a certain ethnic or racial background, but don't think a certain way, you are a traitor. Wouldn't it be nice if the left lived by its own claims of tolerance and inclusion by celebrating the simple fact that a herebefore unrepresented minority runs for (or has been elected to) Congress?

Nothing hateful about it, they are telling the truth. Neo-Conservatism is not in the interests of the Iranian-American community, and given that you are a member of the Swiss-American community, I wouldn't expect you to understand it.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15): He wants state-run healthcare for all, on the British model.

Not a bad idea, given that the average Briton pays one percent less in income and social security taxes than the average American. The Clinton model is better.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17): Not a bad idea, given that the average Briton pays one percent less in income and social security taxes than the average American.

And about a million times less medical insurance.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18): And about a million times less medical insurance.

I was trying to make it a fair fight  

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18): And about a million times less medical insurance.

And waits 6 months for a CAT scan.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20): And waits 6 months for a CAT scan.

Not if you actually need one.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20): And waits 6 months for a CAT scan

All the same, it would be interesting to hear how many Brits would be willing to give up the NHS with all its inconsistencies, in favour of the US "pay up or die" system. I suspect the numbers would not be high.

[Edited 2006-09-14 20:44:27]

Just another Minnesota liberal DFL'er....nothing to see here.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15): But this guy is pretty radical left:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15): He wants state-run healthcare for all, on the British model.

He makes sense in those areas. He can't possibly be that 'left' and uphold his strict Muslim beliefs.
Is he going to be selective in his beliefs and how he votes?
Is he going to be a Muslim version of a cafeteria Catholic?
It begs the question of why he converted in the first place if that's the case?
Why wear your religion on your sleeves?

Quoting Slider (Reply 23): DFL'er

Translation, please.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15): Wouldn't it be nice if the left lived by its own claims of tolerance and inclusion by celebrating the simple fact that a herebefore unrepresented minority runs for (or has been elected to) Congress?

Truth be told, I simply entered her name from recollection into Google and figured that an opinion from "iranian.com" would be able to stand on its own. In a cursory search of the site, I found nothing to lend me to believe that it's a leftist site, perhaps you found something different.

But true to A.net, whether it's a eulogy or opinion, those on the right won't miss an opportunity to slam anything they perceive as leftist.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 25): Translation, please.

Democratic Farm Labor party....the Democrats in essence in MN.

Quoting Slider (Reply 27):

Thank you.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 28): Thank you.

Anytime.

You have to know MN politics- in that state, if you espouse Scandinavian Socialism, aka "progressiveness," you're in like flynn. Doesn't matter if you're Muslim, black, white, or purple and pink. Sounds like his platform resonated.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29): You have to know MN politics- in that state, if you espouse Scandinavian Socialism, aka "progressiveness," you're in like flynn. Doesn't matter if you're Muslim, black, white, or purple and pink. Sounds like his platform resonated.

Well given the relative success of Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland with their varying but deep-seated levels of Scandinavian Socialism, there are worse things to espouse. Taxes are high, but so are living standards, standards of health, education, gender equality etc etc. It's not all bad  

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21): Not if you actually need one.

You may be right, the latest American fad is recreational CAT scans.   

I preferred the old American fad of sitting on a copier and taking pictures of my tushy.   

The man looks good, his family looks modern and nice, I am sure that he IS accepted as Muslim. BUT he is NOT of an ethnic background which might have any impression on people from outside the USA. A Christian Arab would be far more of "a difference". And Ralph Nader IS of Lebanese origin, and therefore involved in Arab American organisations etc.

ME AVN FAN:
I still have my reservations about this guy. Considering I know exactly how he got sucked in to this whole Muslim thing.
As a Black American and *'raised' Catholic, I was always challenged in my beliefs by other Blacks that were Baptist and even more so by the Nation Of Islam. The N.O.I. were the worst. I ran in to these types when I was in undergrad in college.
Keith Ellison looks and sounds like a solid candidate and convention wisdom would think that I would support him but I don't.

Sure he'd be a hell of a lot better than all of those Bible-thumping Republicans from the South on some issues. My question is, how can someone align themselves with such a strict religion and respect the separation of Church & state? How will he vote on issues pertaining to women's abortion rights? School prayer? Contraceptives? Abstenince? Science?
Eventually it will come to a point where he'll have to decide to represent what's in the best interest of the country, his district or uphold his Muslim beliefs. They would totally contradict one another.
Would he be the equivalent of a 'Cafeteria Catholic' or become a 'Cafeteria Muslim'. Which then begs the question, why announce his religion in the first place?

Another thing that aggravates me with my fellow liberals is that some defend and in some cases embrace the Muslim faith thinking that it'll piss off the religious right (Christian fundamentalist here in the USA). When in reality, the Christian fundamentalist fear Secular Humanism, science and advancement of mankind more than anything. Not the Muslims.
Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalists Muslims and Orthodox Jews would rather all of us burn up in a mushroom cloud than accept the fact that there is no heaven or hell.

So I guess I am one of the few liberals that don't think its so 'beautiful' to see a Muslim go to Congress.



*BTW, I've divorced myself from my former Christian beliefs. I cannot embrace an anti-Semitic Bible that calls for certain people to convert or be killed when/if Jesus returns.

[Edited 2006-09-15 10:29:36]

[Edited 2006-09-15 10:33:07]

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33): how can someone align themselves with such a strict religion and respect the separation of Church & state? How will he vote on issues pertaining to women's abortion rights? School prayer? Contraceptives? Abstenince? Science?

A) "strict religion" ? any religion is as strict as the person
B) separation of Church&state ? is fact to at least some extent in most Arab countries
C) abortion rights ? under discussion in both Christian and Muslim countries.
D) school prayer ? whomever is in favour of separation of Church&state and actual religious freedom should be AGAINST such a thing, hope he also is against
E) Contraceptives ? distribution of contraceptives is supported even by the government of the I.R.of Iran, whenever of course prohibited in the KSA. In Egypt, the distribution is supported by that organisation of Mrs Suzanne Mubarak and Mrs Jehane es-Sadat. So that Islam is no problem in this.
F) Abstinence ? ask the Pope !
G) Science ? Islam is in favour of science and has always been
-
But again, all I know about this politician under discussion here is what I see on his WEBsite. And therefore do NOT feel to be in a position to say whether he is good or bad.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): A) "strict religion" ? any religion is as strict as the person

Well, our nation is under attack from fundamentalist Christians such as Dubya & Co.
I swear I hate the man!   

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): B) separation of Church&state ? is fact to at least some extent in most Arab countries

Trust me, The Keith Ellison types will hop onboard with Dubya & Co to test the limits of Dubya's 'faith based' bu$h!t.
I know his kind too well.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): C) abortion rights ? under discussion in both Christian and Muslim countries.

Again, the fundamentalist Christians want to send women to back-alley abortions.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): D) school prayer ? whomever is in favour of separation of Church&state and actual religious freedom should be AGAINST such a thing, hope he also is against

I agree with you here!
I get the feeling you just don't understand how far the USA has slipped behind under Dubya & Co. and his fundamentalist Christian agenda.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): ) Contraceptives ? distribution of contraceptives is supported even by the government of the I.R.of Iran

The Muslim converts ignore that fact.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): F) Abstinence ? ask the Pope !

Again, the fundamentalist Christians think that ALL Catholics will go to HELL because Catholics pray to Mary.
(see my previous post when I talk about Baptist)
Bush and his fundamentalist (non-Catholic) followers do NOT like the Pope.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): G) Science ? Islam is in favour of science and has always been

I hope you are right!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35): Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): G) Science ? Islam is in favour of science and has always been I hope you are right!

Algebra anyone?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35): Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): C) abortion rights ? under discussion in both Christian and Muslim countries. Again, the fundamentalist Christians want to send women to back-alley abortions.

Abortion is legal in Iran

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35): Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34): ) Contraceptives ? distribution of contraceptives is supported even by the government of the I.R.of Iran The Muslim converts ignore that fact.

ME AVN FAN is correct. Contraception is open and legal in Iran.

BTW, anyone find it interesting that prostitution is legal in Iran and not in the US?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36): Algebra anyone?

Well aware of that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36): BTW, anyone find it interesting that prostitution is legal in Iran and not in the US?

It's legal here in SFO. Then again, we are in a bubble here.  

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36): Abortion is legal in Iran

...and how about the dozens of other Muslims nations?


Just to clarify things. I think Muslims should be free here in the USA to believe what they want to believe. As a Sucular Humanist, I have issues with just about anyone that wears there religion on there sleeves, especially one seeking a political office.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20): And waits 6 months for a CAT scan.

Here's an idea, Cfalk: if the conservatives would finally get interested in education, we could start producing some really altruistic scientists and inventers who will work together on making a cheaper and easier to produce CAT scan machine. Then we can all get CAT scans daily. Will that make you happy?

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 38): Here's an idea, Cfalk: if the conservatives would finally get interested in education.....

You mean question Charlie's Bible?!?!?!?!?!?!  

You gonna get struck down by lighting Master Nuts!   

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 38): Here's an idea, Cfalk: if the conservatives would finally get interested in education,

You really want to throw stones in glass houses?

Who was it who stopped people from being able to put their kids in any good schools that they wanted and where the schools would be directly accountable for their performance, through the voucher program? It wasn't the conservatives. Democratic refusal to support the voucher program only proved their desire to maintain the old facade of appearing to help the poor while actually doing everything to ensure they stay poor (and keep voting Democratic.)

Cfalk:
Oh hush it!
I'd like to hear what you have to say in response to reply #35, especially the 3rd paragraph.
Which weapon do you choose?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41): Cfalk: Oh hush it! I'd like to hear what you have to say in response to reply #35, especially the 3rd paragraph. Which weapon do you choose?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35): Again, the fundamentalist Christians want to send women to back-alley abortions.

What, about abortion? I am pro-choice.

Why don't you answer MY challenge? Why does it scare democrats to allow people to choose schools? Are they afraid that (gasp!) poor people might get an education and be less dependent on the government? Scary thought...

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42): Why don't you answer MY challenge? Why does it scare democrats to allow people to choose schools? Are they afraid that (gasp!) poor people might get an education

OH BOY!
You are further behind than I thought.  
Take a break from the Internet for a few hours, put on your RUSH - Moving Pictures album and get back to us, Okay?!  

No prayer in public school and no thinking in Church, deal?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43): You are further behind than I thought. Take a break from the Internet for a few hours, put on your RUSH - Moving Pictures album and get back to us, Okay?!

ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION!!!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43): No prayer in public school and no thinking in Church, deal?

Did I ever say I am in favor of prayer in school? No.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42): scare democrats to allow people to choose schools?

A) what exactly do you mean by "allow people to choose schools" ?
B) it sounds as if richer people could send their children to some schools in different neighbourhoods they prefer, while poorer ones could not, which in fact would increase the defacto-differences. While to deny richer people to do as mentioned simply leads them to take domicile just across a regional or local border in order to secure their wish nevertheless

Cfalk:
Did you even have a question in the first place?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 44): Did I ever say I am in favor of prayer in school? No.

Not in this thread but you are of the biggest proponents of religious interference in public education. If you'd like, I could dig up the post you have made in the past.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46): Not in this thread but you are of the biggest proponents of religious interference in public education.

I think they do a hell of a job (no pun intended). I went to Jesuit schools myself. But a private school does not have to be religiously affiliated, and a public school should not be.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46): Did you even have a question in the first place?

Now you are doing this on purpose.

Here's the question (again): Why does it scare democrats to allow poor people to choose where their kids go to school?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47): Why does it scare democrats to allow poor people to choose where their kids go to school?

Does it? I don't know of a single Democrat losing sleep over this.
Are we talking about choice of public schools or choice to go to private schools at taxpayers expense?

Of course, religious schools interrupt valuable educational time for religious brainwashing.




I'll chime in more in a few hours after I take a rest.  

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48): Are we talking about choice of public schools or choice to go to private schools at taxpayers expense?

I'm talking about the voucher program. That means that the parent gets a voucher every year for his child's education, and he can put his kid into any school he wants to, whether it is private, public or whatever he believes will give his kid the best possible education.

Many dems have complained that if the funds are used to send kids to schools that have religion as part of the curriculum, that amounts to a constitutional breach. That argument is completely out of line. The Constitution bans the government from forcing a religion down your throat, but if it is you choice to go there, that is also a constitutionally protected right. The state would have no control over the religious curriculum in any school.

But remember that not all private schools are religious. If the voucher program goes through, you will have thousands more private schools cropping up (many of them entirely secular, if that is what people want), all geared towards impressing parents with the quality of their academic program.

The ONLY real reason that many dems are against this is that it reduces their hold on the poor, by giving their children exactly the same benefits and possibilities that so far have been reserved only for the rich. They think that poor people who become wealthy through education and hard work have this annoying tendency to become republicans, which is something to be avoided, right?