A332
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:58 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Versus , six years of second guessing and allowing the terrorist to get stronger ?

Right, because those terrorists have really calmed down in recent years.  sarcastic 

I can't believe you can make that kind of remark without giggling...

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 21):

 checkmark  Well said!  Smile

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 28):
What's your beaf? Why don't you guys up there go ahead and focus on you hockey and let world policy be handled by people that live in the real world. If it was up to you guys, there would be a few more thousand dead.

Thanks, but we are already busy trying to clean up your forgotten Afghanistan... remember that place...? Osama...?

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 34):
Typical response. Most be hard for those soldiers dying for your rights to know that there are idiots like you who don't support them.

What's even worse is the fact those poor kids are dying in a war to protect your freedom to spout off like the ignorant goon that you are...  sarcastic 
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
AGM100
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):
The lame attempt of an excuse after deliberately and negligently creating one of the biggest messes in recent history

Not used as a excuse to go to war ... only to compare the level of "the mess". If Saddam's power slipped because of our containment policy .. would the rest of the world blamed us for the violent civil war that would no doubt have followed? . No one knows how it may have worked out , but preemptive action is not that far out of the realm of reality considering this.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
A332
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 51):
If Saddam's power slipped because of our containment policy .. would the rest of the world blamed us for the violent civil war that would no doubt have followed?

And would that not be acceptable, considering your government has been playing with the Iraqi administration (positively & negatively) for at least a generation?

I mean, if the US can't take any blame for their part in the mess that Iraq has been for many years... then who should?
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
MattRB
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
Haha, someone from Canada is telling me my world view is quite narrow. Do you know where I come from or what my life experience has been so far? Do you know that my parents are immigrants from a country were people risked their lives for the chance of escaping to a better world. Or from the dictator that ruled over them? No, no, I have no experience.

So, your parents immigrated. Were you born in the US? Or are you an immigrant too? Your post seems to indicate you're not and that your parents had you after they left and came to America.

As for me telling you that you're world view is quite narrow, I can hardly be blamed for thinking so when you post such tripe as this:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 28):
What's your beaf? Why don't you guys up there go ahead and focus on you hockey and let world policy be handled by people that live in the real world. If it was up to you guys, there would be a few more thousand dead.

That, sir, is the spoutings of a close-minded, uneducated individual. If you do not wish to be thought of as one, you should take care to be a tad more eloquent in your responses.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
I believe in what the U.S is trying to do over there but knowing what I know it's very frustrating that people want result now and right now. They do not realise that it takes years and years.

Results? Hardly. Progress? Absolutely. Anyone with half a brain knows that cleaning up the mess in Iraq is going to take years on the order of decades). But we'd like to see a little progress after three years of occupying the place. But we're not. All we're seeing from this administration is more money being thrown at the issue, more men and women dying needlessly on a daily basis and an administration who has no clear course whatsoever in Iraq. All we hear is that 'we must stay the course' (and now, they're saying 'Well, we never said that' - more spin and BS). Well, what the hell course is that, who's driving the damn boat and how much rowing is left until we get there?

When this President can give the world some semi-firm and intelligible (and truthful, non-partisan, non-spin) answers to those three points, maybe, just maybe, we might have a little more faith in him. But, as the last six years have shown, it's highly unlikely he will.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 40):
No, those are your opinions, Falcon. Get off your rant mode and use your head.

No rant here. I'm going on what we know. The arrogance of this administration before the Iraq war started; the incompetence of this administration since it started; the fact that Bush's policies have made us even more enemies, and even estranged some of our closest friends and allies in the world.

Those are FACT, not opinion. It's there, go read up on it.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 47):
Not true ... President Clinton was ineffective in fighting terrorism and handling NK, even though he does not think so.

And from that you try to transpose on everyone else, even though Mr. Bush has been no more effective in fighting terrorism, since it's spread since his tenure started. He's more bluster than substance, but no more effective. If you think he has been, well, I can't help you on that one.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 47):
He had a internationalist policy outlook which in the end gave us nothing...

And what has Bush's policy given us? Ridicule around the world; contempt for our arrogant policies; a full-fleged guerilla and terrorist war in his centerpiece for expanding "freedom and democracy", namely Iraq. Disdain at home.

Clinton's policies were far better, in my view, than anything this president has tried.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 47):
John Kerry was just plain unlikeable and very indecisive and Like Clinton , thought is was better to talk to our enemies.

I guess to you it's shoot first, and be damned the consequences, eh? Look what not talking got us in Iraq-a stalemate of a conflict which we may not be able to bring back to our side. And you prefer that? God help the nation with such attitudes.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 47):
They are the democratic big shots , they were what I voted against.

And what you voted for was arrogance, mismanagement, scandal and incompetence. Congratulations.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
Haha, someone from Canada is telling me my world view is quite narrow.

What's that supposed to mean? Canadians per capita travel a lot more than the average US citizen does (look at how many Americans don't even own a passport). Just because your parents are immigrants doesn't make you "worldly". You obviously have no clue about the real reason terrorism is growing, and it's not "because they hate our freedom". If you honestly believe that then you're the kool-aid drinker my friend.

Of course why would a Canadian waste time with you? We could say " Hahahah Someone from America lecturing me about foreign policy etc." considering your education system is the laughing stock of the industrialized world.

Kris
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
No rant here.

Mmm hmm.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
I'm going on what we know.

You're going on your own perception and nothing else.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
arrogance of this administration



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
the incompetence of this administration



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
Those are FACT, not opinion.

Nicely done, Falcon.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
It's there, go read up on it.

I don't have to read up on squat to know what differs fact from opinion. Try again.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 56):
You're going on your own perception and nothing else.



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 56):
I don't have to read up on squat to know what differs fact from opinion. Try again.

I beg to differ with you. And so will the history books, my friend.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
It's not the fault of the U.S that Iraqis are dying now it's just the cycle of a Democracy trying to take shape.

Sorry, but I can't deal with concentrated cynicism on that level right now without fear of getting banned as a result...  yuck 

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
If anything I don't want people to think in the short term like Klaus and others are thinking, yes people will die now but it's for a better future.

The mistakes and the resulting failures are on the record. As is almost every single warning which was shoved aside.

This catastrophy will remain a catastrophy in the long run as well - it takes a change in the overall approach to both Iraq and the issue of terrorism to gain any kind of traction again.

Preventing terrorism is by far the best long-term strategy; And persecuting and drying out existing terrorist cells while removing the more obvious issues any new ones could congeal around is the only viable long-term strategy that has ever worked in history and it's rather obviously the alternative to the all-out fiasco of the Bush administration's approach.
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
Sorry, but I can't deal with concentrated cynicism on that level right now without fear of getting banned as a result...

No worries. His posts in this thread have been so incredibly short sighted and vitriolic that they don't warrant your consideration anyways.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
Preventing terrorism is by far the best long-term strategy; And persecuting and drying out existing terrorist cells while removing the more obvious issues any new ones could congeal around is the only viable long-term strategy that has ever worked in history and it's rather obviously the alternative to the all-out fiasco of the Bush administration's approach.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the Iraq War has been a preventative approach. If anything, it's helped rally scores of new recruits to radical Islamic causes, which I'm reasonably sure doesn't do much to prevent terrorism anywhere in the world.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 57):
I beg to differ with you.

No, there's no differing my friend, look up these two words:

Fact
Opinion

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 57):
And so will the history books, my friend.

Time will tell.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 59):
I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the Iraq War has been a preventative approach. If anything, it's helped rally scores of new recruits to radical Islamic causes, which I'm reasonably sure doesn't do much to prevent terrorism anywhere in the world.

Indeed, hence:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
it's rather obviously the alternative to the all-out fiasco of the Bush administration's approach.
 
AGM100
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 52):
mean, if the US can't take any blame for their part in the mess that Iraq has been for many years... then who should?

I agree that we should take responsibility for it, and we are. Iraq will be transformed eventually, the people of Iraq must soon begin to see the difference. The enemies of Iraq do not have a plan for the country , they only want to kill their opposition. Eventually the choice will have to be made to support a central government or choose the alternative.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
And from that you try to transpose on everyone else, even though Mr. Bush has been no more effective in fighting terrorism, since it's spread since his tenure started.



His policy is forcing the rest of the world to make a choice against radicalism, if they do not choose to fight terror then our future is limited anyway.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
Clinton's policies were far better, in my view, than anything this president has tried

President Bush's vision is farther reaching than President Clinton's. President Clinton reacted only if it was to his administrations immediate benefit. As I have said before ,President Bush's plan is risky , but if Iraq and Afghanistan can stabilize into "democratic" countries ... history will be favorable to the effort.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 54):
I guess to you it's shoot first, and be damned the consequences, eh?



The long range consequences are favorable IMO , only the future will tell if the decision was correct. Sorry , you cant have it both ways.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 62):
President Bush's plan is risky

"Risky"? Sorry, but the actual word is "failed"!
 
OlegShv
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 34):
Typical response. Most be hard for those soldiers dying for your rights to know that there are idiots like you who don't support them.

Hey, I did not call you names, so be polite.

My point is that this war is unjustified. Supporting the soldiers for me means that they need to get out of there. Has it ever occurred to you that being patriotic and supporting your military does not necessarily equate to supporting f**d-up White House administration in whatever lunacy they proclaim?

I'll have to quote myself.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 33):
over 2 thousand US soldiers would be alive right now.

See, I want them to be alive and well.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 46):
Iraq will take much more time and much more blood shed. It's not the fault of the U.S that Iraqis are dying now it's just the cycle of a Democracy trying to take shape. At my parents country many were killed at the beginning because there was no order, but gradually the conflicts subsided.

Go tell that to thousands of Iraqi families who lost their loved ones. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 62):
His policy is forcing the rest of the world to make a choice against radicalism, if they do not choose to fight terror then our future is limited anyway.

His policies have SPREAD radicalism, and we have no choice but to fight it. There's a difference.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 62):
The long range consequences are favorable IMO

FAVORABLE? After the debacle in Iraq, you can say that with a straight face?

Uh, OK.  Yeah sure
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:56 am

There have been many posts on this thread defending everything President Bush and his administration have done, but in those posts I don't really see reactions to the video in the original post. Maybe because it simply can't be defended?

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 65):
His policies have SPREAD radicalism, and we have no choice but to fight it. There's a difference.

Their is no proof of this Falcon, its a perception of yours. Not saying that you are not correct , but thier were plenty of radicals around before President Bush was elected .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 65):
FAVORABLE? After the debacle in Iraq, you can say that with a straight face?

The effort in Iraq may well appear to be a debacle now , as many wars in the past have at times. But in the end when Iraq stabilizes , which it will, the effort may be viewed differently. After 9/11 we realized that something needed to be done . The Afghan campaign was absolutely necessary (IMO) but , Afghanistan would have trouble flourishing in a neighborhood with Saddams Iraq and Iran fighting against it or at least not supporting demoacracy thier. The overall statagy in Iraq must be viewd in this stategic term if it is not , then it becomes a immdite debacle.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
heir is no proof of this Falcon,

What, the daily violence in Iraq isn't proof enough for you?

Lord, you gave them eyes, but they cannot see.

That statement of yours is so far-removed from reality as to defy any rational description, AGM. It's amazing.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
The effort in Iraq may well appear to be a debacle now , as many wars in the past have at times. But in the end when Iraq stabilizes , which it will, the effort may be viewed differently. After 9/11 we realized that something needed to be done .

Linking Iraq and 9/11, a tired old, lame, discredited view, AGM. And you want me to take you seriously?

In the end, I think you'll find Iraq will end up like Lebanon did for years-actually, maybe Yugoslavia might be a better analogy-rife with violence based on ethnic and religious lines, and we will have cause it. More to the point, George W. Bush will have caused it.

I know you cannot critisize the man-it's not in you-but open your eyes to what's going on a bit.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 65):
His policies have SPREAD radicalism, and we have no choice but to fight it. There's a difference.

Their is no proof of this Falcon, its a perception of yours.

You've obviously missed Klaus' post above in which he cited the latest "National Intelligence Estimate" (NIE):

"US intelligence report: Iraq war breeding more terrorists - White House 'strongly disagrees' with spy agencies' assessment.

A classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) contends that the war in Iraq has increased Islamic radicalism, and has made the terror threat around the world worse."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0925/dailyUpdate.html

Based upon this and other news-articles, under pressure the White House finally released a partially declassified portion of the NIE which can be obtained here: http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/Declassified_NIE_Key_Judgments.pdf

Strange that you somehow seem to have missed that important event; it only happened last month.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
The effort in Iraq may well appear to be a debacle now , as many wars in the past have at times. But in the end when Iraq stabilizes , which it will, the effort may be viewed differently. After 9/11 we realized that something needed to be done .

Still trying to link 9/11 and Saddam?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
Afghanistan would have trouble flourishing in a neighborhood with Saddams Iraq and Iran fighting against it or at least not supporting demoacracy thier.

After the 8-year long Iran-Iraq war, you're not seriously suggesting these two sworn enemies would somehow have taken on Afghanistan together, now are you? Anyway, neither of these two countries is Afghanistan's major problem; Pakistan is.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
The overall statagy in Iraq must be viewd in this stategic term if it is not

If that is the strategy, then why the hell does the Bush Administration have various undemocratic and even dictatorial rulers for its allies? Musharraf in Pakistan for example or what about Karimov in Uzbekistan, a man known for "boiling his political opponents in hot water".

There is no strategy behind Iraq other than "Stay the Course" and this was initiated not long after 9/11 when the Bush Administration believed they'd never have a better chance to get rid of Saddam and replace him with a more pro-West puppet. This Administration believed it would be an easy job for the military forces at their command and their overly optimistic attitude made them completely blind to the numerous warnings of the risks not just regarding the Iraqi adventure alone but, more importantly, its' foreseeable impact on the Global War on Terror. In that regard, this latest NIE might have well been written in 2003 by Gerhard Schroder, Jacques Chirac or any other person who openly dared to question the urgency of invading Iraq.

[Edited 2006-10-25 00:04:13]
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 68):
What, the daily violence in Iraq isn't proof enough for you?

Iraqi on Iraqi violence is more to do with secular differences and turf dispute inside Iraq. I may have mistook your comment in regards to the world wide Jihad against the US. Their is no proof that their numbers have grown although it is a logical assumption. But again I say , their goal is to destroy the west anyway , so "westernizing" Iraq would be a defeat for them.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 68):
I know you cannot criticize the man-it's not in you-but open your eyes to what's going on a bit.



I am Critical of the President , Their has been mistakes made in Iraq ! Some of them huge , but that does not mean the overall plan is bad. My mane criticism of this administration is their "hunker down mentality". In a perfect senario the administration would do a much better job coaliting international support.
The State department should be visiting another capital every week including our enemies.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mdsh00
Topic Author
Posts: 4024
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 34):
Typical response. Most be hard for those soldiers dying for your rights to know that there are idiots like you who don't support them.

What rights?? Would our rights be any different if we never went there? No. In fact we have LOST some of our rights, and for what? A false premise. I don't think there is any American here that doesn't support the troops. NOBODY wants to see them die. Statements like yours unnecessarily add fuel to the fire.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 34):
Typical response.

No your's is a "typical response." Say that you "don't support the troops" and that they are "fighting for our rights." And when you really don't have anything constructive to add, just insult the poster and tell them to worry about hockey.  Yeah sure
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 70):
Iraqi on Iraqi violence is more to do with secular differences and turf dispute inside Iraq.

And tell me, what event set off all this violence? If you answered "The unjustified U.S. invasion of Iraq", then you win the stuffed Dick Cheney doll.  Yeah sure

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 70):
but that does not mean the overall plan is bad.

Just one problem with what you say-and that's the overall plan hasn't just been bad, it's been absolutely horrible.

Other than that, you were on the money.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 72):
And tell me, what event set off all this violence? If you answered "The unjustified U.S. invasion of Iraq", then you win the stuffed Dick Cheney doll.

Man that will look good beside my Action "CONDI" doll .

Falcon my teath are getting dull chewing this fat , but as I stated before . Only the future will tell how the plan will work out. For now I am one American who supports this effort and can see some light at the end. I want that world 20 years from now for my kids and my grandkids. I want my future generations to see peace and stability in the ME. Doing nothing was never going to acheive that. Sneer at me all you want , thats cool but thats how I see it.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 73):
Man that will look good beside my Action "CONDI" doll .

Is the Condi one full-sized, and anatomically correct?  rotfl 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 73):
For now I am one American who supports this effort and can see some light at the end.

That light is a freight train going about 150mph. There's noting positive happening in Iraq these days. Nothing. I don't see what you see there.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
After 9/11 we realized that something needed to be done .



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
Afghanistan would have trouble flourishing in a neighborhood with Saddams Iraq and Iran fighting against it or at least not supporting demoacracy thier.

When you throw out these two little gems, your credibility to speak on this subject is diminished to the point of non-existance.

The first is an outright lie and a shameful play of the terrorism fear mongering card.

The second is just plain ignorant. To suggest that an Iraq-Iran cabal would seek to undermine Afghanistan is preposterous at best. I recommend you learn a bit about those two countries and re-examine that notion.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 67):
The overall statagy in Iraq must be viewd in this stategic term if it is not , then it becomes a immdite debacle.

This is the first rational thing you've said. Considering, however, that your strategic construct is wholly without merit (see above), one can only conclude that our Iraq policy is therefor a debacle. I think "profound policy failure" is a bit more descriptive, but I'm okay with "debacle" too.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
AGM100
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 75):
When you throw out these two little gems, your credibility to speak on this subject is diminished to the point of non-existance.

DID not mean to imply that Iran and Iraq would invade Afghanistan , but they sure would unbalance the power their. At this point it is suspected that Iran is working in Iraq , do you believe they would not have done so in Afghanistan?

Bravo IMO its easy to sit hear and pick out what is wrong, but it does not do shit. We are in , and keeping a stiff upper lip is what I need to do. Sure I will most likely be second guessing my support for the rest of my life , but I choose to keep faith that some good will come from the nightmare. I know I am not as smart as you , but I refuse to surrender my hopes. It is the least I can do to support our people on the ground their.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
Is the Condi one full-sized, and anatomically correct?

Yes , and it has "pull in case of emergency" deploy straps! Should I pull them about now ??
:D
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
MUWarriors
Posts: 197
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 66):
There have been many posts on this thread defending everything President Bush and his administration have done, but in those posts I don't really see reactions to the video in the original post. Maybe because it simply can't be defended?

Exactly. When you are placed in an indefensible position in politics, try to shift the focus on your opponent. The Republicans have been doing a lot with this lately (look how quickly the page scandal became a question of if the Dems leaked it), but to be fair both parties are great at it.

To be fair to Bush (as much as I dislike his presidency) we all have made a mistake like this and I honestly think the best route would be for him to admit he mis-spoke. It won't happen, however, as he can't admit to a mistake, even as mundane as this, which is exactly why I really dislike his presidency.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 76):
Sure I will most likely be second guessing my support for the rest of my life , but I choose to keep faith that some good will come from the nightmare. I know I am not as smart as you , but I refuse to surrender my hopes.

Faith and hope are good things AGM, but we can all get in a bind very quickly when we substitute faith and hope for a sober reality-check and well considered judgement. That becomes particularly problematic when people's lives are the price we pay when we're wrong.

If we're going to stay in Iraq, I think it is vital that we see some real, substantive, progress, and I mean progress on the decisive issues of the conflict, not the little things on the edges.

Also, our leaders need to prove to us that they have a realistic understanding of the situation and that they're prepared to adjust and refine their policy with the changing dynamics of the situation.

This administration has completely and absolutely failed on both those measures. The situation in Iraq has gone from bad to worse to awful, and the whole time they're telling us "it's getting better" and "we're making progress".

That is complete bullshit and it's no way to run a war or anything else for that matter. I will not support a policy that has zero record of success administered by leaders who are either in complete denial or are flat out incompetent.

Not acceptable.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):
But in the long run when Iraq stabilizes and becomes a country that is able to balance religion and government ..the radicals will lose.

If Iraq stabilizes, fine, great, everything works out for the best.

I don't see Iraq in its current borders ever stabilizing; the only hope IMO is for it to devolve into 3 or so separate nations. Otherwise the whole country will be like Belfast during the worst of "the troubles", except multiplied out to every city and into the countryside.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):
Remember 9/11 happened while we were... not in Iraq....

Your favorite president is fond of 'proving' he knows what OBL wants to do by quoting OBL. In that same spirit, go ahead and research OBL's own words on why he supports terrorism against America. It isn't ideological.

US POLICIES GENERATE TERRORISM AGAINST AMERICA, NOTHING ELSE.

Terrorism against America all boils down to US involvement in the ME which for decades has killed 1000s of Muslims through support of terror regimes like Saddam's Iraq, Israel, the Shah of Iran and the less profoundly irritating, but still corrupt, regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and elsewhere.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):
idealistic war waged on us is to defeat the idea

This is not an idealistic war.

They hate American policies, not American freedom or the American ideals.*

Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
Preventing terrorism is by far the best long-term strategy;

...But do you prevent it by waging war on 1.3 billion Muslims, or would it be wiser to address the policy reasons why Muslims are angry at America and why radical Muslims are willing to kill because of these American policies?

America doesn't have to give up on Israel, but it does have to withdrawal from the ME generally and solve the Palestinian situation...to end terrorism.

Cairo

*
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 78):
the decisive issues of the conflict

The decisive issue is to stop the the ethnic religious cleansing going on thier. This I am afraid is out of our control. This ,as we have argued here before, is a tollerance issue with the Iraqi people themselves. I refuse to believe that US troops are causing Sunni's to kill Shia and visa versa. It appears to me that they see each other as Muslim Shia or Sunni first rather than Iraqi's. True the US overthew the power structure their and we are to blame for that, but the hate crimes going on their are purely that... HATRED.

True enough it will always be questioned whether or not Iraq would have eventually got rid of Saddam and did so peacefully. I do not believe that would have happened , IMO opinion we would have had to insert our forces anyway sooner or later. I know my opinion means nothing but with oil issues , we could not have stood by and let the country collapse without inserting a stabilzing force.

Their is just a much larger picture here somehow , and we do not know the full story I am afraid.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 79):
They hate American policies, not American freedom or the American ideals.

Cairo , I respect your opinion I know what side you are on and you have your right to that opinion. But I think that the US support for the State of Israel is the primary thorn. In your post in the past you have mentioned the Sha of Iran, I have since read some books and am continueing to find out more about that period, Seems to me he just was fighting to keep the radicals out of the governemnt... But I need to read further I guess.

Pray for Peace , and for our leaders to make the right decsions. I want my family home and safe and I want to see the great City of Baghdad , flourishing and proud ! You and I can agree on that!
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Klaus
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:52 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 79):
...But do you prevent it by waging war on 1.3 billion Muslims, or would it be wiser to address the policy reasons why Muslims are angry at America and why radical Muslims are willing to kill because of these American policies?

We clearly agree on that point.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 79):
America doesn't have to give up on Israel, but it does have to withdrawal from the ME generally and solve the Palestinian situation...to end terrorism.

Correct. Although it's not so much a matter of an american retreat as it would be the question of which exact policy the troops were supposed to execute or support.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 80):
This I am afraid is out of our control.

Because your moronic leadership let it slip out of control despite the most dire warnings at every single step on the way!

Now blaming your screwups on the victims is the epitome of cynicism.

If you want to know why some people hate the USA, read your own post again with a fresh perspective!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 80):
Pray for Peace , and for our leaders to make the right decsions.

They've already proven that it would take nothing short of a miracle to open their eyes!
 
WestWing
Posts: 1136
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:04 am

The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18094
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RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
They are counting on spreading your ideas to win , on behalf of them thank you for your support.

What did I say that lead you to that conclusion Sherlock?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
The only hope you have appears to be that we lose. Why ?

Ditto.

In case you failed to notice, British troops are also dying in Bush's two great strategic masterplans "Afghanistan - Where is OBL?" and the sequel "Iraq - They have WMDs!"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 76):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 75):
When you throw out these two little gems, your credibility to speak on this subject is diminished to the point of non-existance.

DID not mean to imply that Iran and Iraq would invade Afghanistan , but they sure would unbalance the power their. At this point it is suspected that Iran is working in Iraq , do you believe they would not have done so in Afghanistan?

Bravo IMO its easy to sit hear and pick out what is wrong, but it does not do shit. We are in , and keeping a stiff upper lip is what I need to do. Sure I will most likely be second guessing my support for the rest of my life , but I choose to keep faith that some good will come from the nightmare. I know I am not as smart as you , but I refuse to surrender my hopes. It is the least I can do to support our people on the ground their.

The biggest problem for Afghanistan is not Iran, the Iranian regime actually like the fact the Taliban problem was taken care of by the American's. Afghanistan's problem is it's giant neighbour to the east,Pakistan. The continuing support by Pakistan (not the government, although it has been alleged that some factions of the military are supporting the Taliban) is one of the major reasons for the Taliban's resurgence. Pakistan is America's BFF in the fight against terrorism.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 82):

Hey! He is stealing Jon Stewart's news reporting methods.

So, how ironic is it that righties have been calling the lefties "flip floppers" and now, are guilty of that very thing.
 
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ER757
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
Given that "we" have elected him 2X is that not a sign how dumb we are?

Well, actually he WASN'T elected to his first term. And some would argue that he stole Ohio to win his second term.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Bush-We've Never Been, "stay The Course"

Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:59 am

If this was Kerry, many would be calling for his head on a stick.


Where is the anti-"flip-flop" crowd now?


ANCflyer? Have not seen you since reply #11. Still waiting for the spin? AerospaceFan? JJ74? There are others too. C'mon, guys. Waiting.
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