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Sabenaboy
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Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:40 pm

In the Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006 released a few days ago, the USA are now ranked 53! I will only name a few countries which are now ahead of the USA: Chile, Mozambique, Bosnia ans Herzegovina, Benin and Jamaica to name just a few!

This years comment about the USA:

Quote:
"The United States (53rd) has fallen nine places since last year, after being in 17th position in the first year of the Index, in 2002. Relations between the media and the Bush administration sharply deteriorated after the president used the pretext of "national security" to regard as suspicious any journalist who questioned his "war on terrorism." The zeal of federal courts which, unlike those in 33 US states, refuse to recognise the media's right not to reveal its sources, even threatens journalists whose investigations have no connection at all with terrorism.

Last year's comment:

Quote:
"The United States (44th) fell more than 20 places, mainly because of the imprisonment of New York Times reporter Judith Miller and legal moves undermining the privacy of journalistic sources.

2004 comment:

Quote:
"Violations of the privacy of sources, persistent problems in granting press visas and the arrest of several journalists during anti-Bush demonstrations kept the United States (22nd) away from the top of the list."

What happened to the "freedom of speech"-principle the USA once had? Who is to blame for this bad ranking?

[Edited 2006-10-24 09:45:14]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:12 pm

I just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.  Yeah sure

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists who chose to publish them (quite opposite they refuse to bow down to fanatics) and I don't see how it is Denmark's fault that their own "Danish" imams chose to show loyalty to their host country and exercise freedom of expression (which they would most likely be denied wherever they came from) by stirring pot of hate in the Middle East.
It seems like typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because if things were done differently then we'd be reading about Denmark's censorship.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:17 pm

I am just as free now as I was in 2000 . . .

I can go and do what ever the hell I please.

Taken with a grain of salt . . . . a very, very SMALLLLLL grain.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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sebolino
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
I am just as free now as I was in 2000 . . .

I can go and do what ever the hell I please.

You wanna bet ?

Go in the street with a T-shirt saying "Long live Bin Laden" and we will see if you can do what you want.
Or go in a plane and shout "I got a bomb". Fun guaranteed !  Smile  Smile
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 3):

Sure, I'll bet.

I didn't say there wasn't a consequence for my actions . . . and I'll bet you right now, I could walk the streets of ANC with Long Live OBL T-Shirt and be just fine. I might get my ass beat, but it's not illegal, and I doubt - seriously - I'd even get a word from anyone.

As for your I got a bomb remark - that's just fuckin' stupid. Can YOU do that? Just hop on down to ORY or CDG, hop on a plane and yell, I have a bomb. Assinine . . .

Couldn't do that ten years ago, couldn't do that twenty years ago, won't be able to do that tomorrow.  sarcastic 

Nice to have another Bash the USA thread here though. I was getting bored.

Tell me, SabenaBoy, what the fuck do you care where the US ranks in this bullshit. Where does Germany rank? Not like I care . . . but perhaps you could worry about GERMANY, and we'll worry about the US, eh?  sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Tell me, SabenaBoy, what the fuck do you care where the US ranks in this bullshit. Where does Germany rank? Not like I care . . . but perhaps you could worry about GERMANY, and we'll worry about the US, eh?

Huh, Germany, why Germany? Anyway, Germany and my own country, Belgium that is, are ranked 23th and 14th! A lot higher on the list then theUSA.

What do I care about were the USA ranks? Well, I do care! As they are, unfortunately with this administration, the most powerful country in the world and unfortunately policing the whole planet, we should hope that the USA in particular upholds the freedom of speech philosophy. But, believe it or not, this freedom of speech degraded since G.W. Bush got in the White House!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:29 pm

Whooptie F'N do.

The press is just pissed because it's finally being held to the same standards of accountability that everyone else is. Illegally revealed information? Tough lucky buddy, jail time for you.

The right to not reveal your sources? Really? I don't see any protection from criminal activity in the 1st amendment.

The Bush administration is persecuting the media? Really? Well that explains the FBI raid on Air America... oh... wait...

Reporters Without Borders =  cry 
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
columba
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:29 pm

Germany has fallen from place 18 to 23 because of an affair regarding the German secret service:
Link in German:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,444291,00.html
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 5):
Huh, Germany, why Germany? Anyway, Germany and my own country, Belgium that is, are ranked 23th and 14th! A lot higher on the list then theUSA.

Germany because I looked at the flag wrong on your profile . . .  Embarrassment, but regardless the point is made. Why don't you concern yourself with Belgium and we'll concern ourselves with the US.

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 5):
But, believe it or not, this freedom of speech degraded since G.W. Bush got in the White House!

Prove it.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cornish
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists who chose to publish them (quite opposite they refuse to bow down to fanatics) and I don't see how it is Denmark's fault that their own "Danish" imams chose to show loyalty to their host country and exercise freedom of expression (which they would most likely be denied wherever they came from) by stirring pot of hate in the Middle East.
It seems like typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because if things were done differently then we'd be reading about Denmark's censorship.

Yes i thought that was bizarre too. Just shows what these sorts of surveys are worth....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Toulouse
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:58 pm

Wow, Ireland in joint 1st place along with Finland, Iceland and the Netherlands. That's nice to hear.

Pity about the US, but to be honest, given the current state of affairs over there, it doesn'y surprise me one bit.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
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sebolino
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
As for your I got a bomb remark - that's just fuckin' stupid. Can YOU do that?

No, so what ?
You were saying that you could do whatever you want.
 
 
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sebolino
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
I just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine

The article speaks about the freedom of press, not about the actions of the government only.
It's a fact that the freedom of some newspapers have been limited by some extremists (also people in Denmark). I guess that's the point: citizens can also limit the freedom of press, not only the government. And I'm not sure that the Danish gvt didn't ask for an apology by the way (I don't remember).
 
VHVXB
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:11 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 13):
The article speaks about the freedom of press, not about the actions of the government only.
It's a fact that the freedom of some newspapers have been limited by some extremists (also people in Denmark). I guess that's the point: citizens can also limit the freedom of press, not only the government. And I'm not sure that the Danish gvt didn't ask for an apology by the way (I don't remember).

Does really matter what news the media really presents to the public. Honestly its all biased and a load of crap. Its become a form of entertainment rather than news these days
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 11):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
As for your I got a bomb remark - that's just fuckin' stupid. Can YOU do that?

No, so what ?
You were saying that you could do whatever you want.

You're not an idiot, so don't pretend to act like one . . . this statement makes you look stupid. You know exactly what I meant . . .

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/26/134627/44

Article from 2004, wanna get a little more current? Sounds like a school policy problem. What the hell does PotUS have to do with a stupid decision - made in 2004 - by a school principal with his head up his ass?

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

From 2003, you're losing the battle here. Even worse. The source alone dictates a biased and one sided and outlines incidents from 2001, 2002 and 2003.

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
http://forpressfound.blogspot.com/20...rsion-of-pressfreedom-us-bars.html

Not a Freedom of Speech issue, the reporter can still file his reports and they can be printed. This is an immigration issue - oh, and it happened over 14 months ago . . . and it's from THE most biased source yet.,

YOU LOSE

You'll have to do better . . . I'm not sold.

But I've got two more hours on shift . . . serve it up.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Sabenaboy
Topic Author
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Ran

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
- made in 2004



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
and outlines incidents from 2001, 2002 and 2003.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
This is an immigration issue - oh, and it happened over 14 months ago

Wasn't Bush sworn into office early 2001?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Not a Freedom of Speech issue, the reporter can still file his reports and they can be printed.

Yeah sure, just an immigration issue. What a coincidence.
How biased can YOU get?

[Edited 2006-10-24 13:43:30]
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 9):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists who chose to publish them (quite opposite they refuse to bow down to fanatics) and I don't see how it is Denmark's fault that their own "Danish" imams chose to show loyalty to their host country and exercise freedom of expression (which they would most likely be denied wherever they came from) by stirring pot of hate in the Middle East.
It seems like typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because if things were done differently then we'd be reading about Denmark's censorship.

 checkmark 

It that's the level of this survey, it means one thing only - absolutely nothing.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 16):
Wasn't Bush sworn into office early 2001?

Yes . . .

Weren't there previous years of this report? I see at least two you highlight above . . .

So, where's the data that supports this years report. Surely as accurate  sarcastic  as this report purports to be, they have some CURRENT data to support their findings right???

You still have to do better . . . .

I've still got about an hour . . . press on.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:14 pm

105 for India...Im surprised.
Good for Finland.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ltbewr
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:34 pm

To me greater dangers to press freedoms include:
The declining readership of daily newspapers in part due to changes in our work, life habits, less time to read a newspaper
Less advertising income for newspapers due to consolidations of businesses, the rise of cable TV, dish TV, the Internet
The business consolidation of the media into fewer owners including common ownership of multiple or large national and regional newspapers, TV stations and magazines
Major corporations owning media like in the USA of GE owning the NBC network, Disney owning the ABC network, rather than the TV networks independent and stand alone companies
Business pressures forcing the reduction of journalists staffs so fewer investigative stores
Government leaders manipulating the media, abusing laws on secrets policies
Political correctness so to not insult any particular local or national ethnic, social, religious groups
Not pushing for info from or asking probing questions of in office or other top political leaders or not playing up opposition views or bad news (like the decling situation in Iraq) for fears of getting cut off from access at all by those in office leaders
 
halls120
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Thread starter):
What happened to the "freedom of speech"-principle the USA once had? Who is to blame for this bad ranking?

Freedom of speech is alive and well. this current "ranking" is just the product of a bunch of spoiled journalists who can't get their way.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 3):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
I am just as free now as I was in 2000 . . .

I can go and do what ever the hell I please.

You wanna bet ?

Go in the street with a T-shirt saying "Long live Bin Laden" and we will see if you can do what you want.
Or go in a plane and shout "I got a bomb". Fun guaranteed !

If you went into a plane and shouted "I have a bomb" before 2000, you'd soon find yourself on the floor of the plane face down in handcuffs.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 9):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists who chose to publish them (quite opposite they refuse to bow down to fanatics) and I don't see how it is Denmark's fault that their own "Danish" imams chose to show loyalty to their host country and exercise freedom of expression (which they would most likely be denied wherever they came from) by stirring pot of hate in the Middle East.
It seems like typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because if things were done differently then we'd be reading about Denmark's censorship.

Yes i thought that was bizarre too. Just shows what these sorts of surveys are worth....

Agree completely. The logic of dropping Denmark down the rankings because the freedom the press enjoys has been impacted by the threats that have resulted from the freedom of the press borders on insanity.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:06 pm

I find it interesting that Reporters Without Borders goes all out on telling their members how to go about reporting whatever it is that they consider "news" yet no where in their site does it give any mention of the professional responsibility that reporters must have in being accurate in their reporting i. e. not taking staged photos of dead children in a war zone or using forged documents to try incite disdain for a sitting President just prior to an election. I also find it kind of strange that they have a section of their site reserved to accuse various individuals or committing crimes against reporters but not a word is spent advising reporters when they themselves might be committing the crimes of harassment, slander, or even accomplice to murder as in the case of Newsweek.

Guess this site just goes to prove that anybody can publish anything, anytime they want and there will be people gullible enough to pay the price to read it. I rank this site right up there with the National Enquirer and Star magazines.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cornish
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 22):
I find it interesting that Reporters Without Borders goes all out on telling their members how to go about reporting whatever it is that they consider "news" yet no where in their site does it give any mention of the professional responsibility that reporters must have in being accurate in their reporting i. e. not taking staged photos of dead children in a war zone or using forged documents to try incite disdain for a sitting President just prior to an election. I also find it kind of strange that they have a section of their site reserved to accuse various individuals or committing crimes against reporters but not a word is spent advising reporters when they themselves might be committing the crimes of harassment, slander, or even accomplice to murder as in the case of Newsweek.

Exactly so. While I do appreciate the importance of the freedom of the press and am lucky enough to live in a country where that is largely the case, freedom of the press should not give them license to abuse this. Particularly the tabloids here in the UK and Europe who will make up any old crap if it sells - regardless of the effect it might have on the (possibly innocent) individual in question.

With freedom of speech comes responsibility. There are certain people in the media that are highly irresponsible sadly.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:19 pm

Germany is ranked above the USA, yet it is illegal to say anything nice about Hitler, the Nazis, or to have any Nazi paraphernalia. It is also illegal to show the Swastika. Not that I like the Nazi's and Neo-Nazis, but it does show the politically correct bias of this poll (and it is a poll, not a study).
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Illegally revealed information? Tough lucky buddy, jail time for you.

How about information extracted under torture - that any good for you ? No jail time for that, it seems. Quite an odd contradiction, don't you think ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 25):
How about information extracted under torture - that any good for you ? No jail time for that, it seems. Quite an odd contradiction, don't you think ?

And where is Lynndie England right now?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
And where is Lynndie England right now?

Shame she couldn't just have waited a year or two - it's perfectly legal now. Tough break.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
I just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place. Yeah sure

Denmark (19th) dropped from joint first place because of serious threats against the authors of the Mohammed cartoons published there in autumn 2005. For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work.

Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists who chose to publish them (quite opposite they refuse to bow down to fanatics) and I don't see how it is Denmark's fault that their own "Danish" imams chose to show loyalty to their host country and exercise freedom of expression (which they would most likely be denied wherever they came from) by stirring pot of hate in the Middle East.
It seems like typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because if things were done differently then we'd be reading about Denmark's censorship.

 checkmark  So true!!

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 13):
The article speaks about the freedom of press, not about the actions of the government only.
It's a fact that the freedom of some newspapers have been limited by some extremists (also people in Denmark).

The Muslims have not limited anything. In fact, the Danish people are tired of muslims trying to change our culture and way of life instead of adapting to their host country, that another so called 'offensive' cartoon could be published anyday. Seeing our embassies being attacked and our flag being burned didn't exactly make us regret those cartoons. Actually the reaction in the middle east confirmed the cartoons very well.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
Shame she couldn't just have waited a year or two - it's perfectly legal now. Tough break.

Torture is legal now in the US?

Well, gee... That makes my job a lot easier. I better shoot an IM to ANC, he'll want to know about this before he goes back on duty tonight.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 25):
How about information extracted under torture - that any good for you ? No jail time for that, it seems. Quite an odd contradiction, don't you think ?

Were they going to use that information in a newspaper story or to save lives?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Torture is legal now in the US?

Errrm - she wasn't in the U.S. when she did it. And by allowing the use in "court" of information extracted under torture at least tacitly condones the practise, don't you think ? Or does it not matter as long as it's not Americans applying the electrodes ?

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 30):
Were they going to use that information in a newspaper story or to save lives?

Irrelevant. Torture is morally repugnant (besides being completely unreliable).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 31):
Errrm - she wasn't in the U.S. when she did it

Doesn't matter where in the world she is, as a soldier she is still bound by the laws of the US.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 31):
And by allowing the use in "court" of information extracted under torture at least tacitly condones the practise, don't you think ?

The Fourth and Fifth Amendments deny the usage of testimony given under duress or other forms of non-legal searches.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ozglobal
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RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Why don't you concern yourself with Belgium and we'll concern ourselves with the US.

Because, whether non-US citizens like it or not, the US makes a point of pursuing what it calls "its interests" everywhere on the planet, we are 'washed' daily, hourly in US media, including news media, our personal lives are daily impacted by your government's policies, whether we like it or not, and one of the main hopes that this be a positive rather than a negative influence on world history is the independence of your press. On the contrary, you are not impacted by the policies of the Belguian governement in any significant manner........That's why, precisely.

Make sense now?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2597
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
To me greater dangers to press freedoms include:
The declining readership of daily newspapers in part due to changes in our work, life habits, less time to read a newspaper
Less advertising income for newspapers due to consolidations of businesses, the rise of cable TV, dish TV, the Internet
The business consolidation of the media into fewer owners including common ownership of multiple or large national and regional newspapers, TV stations and magazines
Major corporations owning media like in the USA of GE owning the NBC network, Disney owning the ABC network, rather than the TV networks independent and stand alone companies
Business pressures forcing the reduction of journalists staffs so fewer investigative stores
Government leaders manipulating the media, abusing laws on secrets policies
Political correctness so to not insult any particular local or national ethnic, social, religious groups
Not pushing for info from or asking probing questions of in office or other top political leaders or not playing up opposition views or bad news (like the decling situation in Iraq) for fears of getting cut off from access at all by those in office leaders

Perhaps not 'greater', but equally formidable. Who could forget Chompsky's prophetic, "Manufacuturing Consent" back in 1986?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
Maybe someone can explain me HOW the freedom of press was compromised because fanatical mobs burned down Danish embassies in Damscus or Palestine or those lovely people who were allowed to yell something about killing those whu insult Mohammed in the streets of London(istan)?
AFAI remember, the Danish government did nothing against the journalists

RSF does not blame the Danish government in particular but just state that some Danish jounalists needed police protection. RSF consider Denmark a country "very observant of civil liberties", which, according to RSF, does not relativise the fact that some journalists could not do their work freely and without being threatened:

"For the first time in recent years in a country that is very observant of civil liberties, journalists had to have police protection due to threats against them because of their work."

Some of you guys should really read RSF's statement before bashing the organisation.
I support the right to arm bears
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):
The Fourth and Fifth Amendments deny the usage of testimony given under duress or other forms of non-legal searches.

The act states (or I so I read) "Based on his findings, the judge may introduce hearsay evidence [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(E)(i)], evidence obtained without a search warrant [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(B)], evidence obtained when the degree of coercion is disputed [10 U.S.C. sec. 948r(d)], or classified evidence not made available to the defense [10 U.S.C. sec. 949d(f)(2)(B)].

This would imply that evidence obtained with some degree of coercion is acceptible, as long as there is disagreement on the level of coercion used. Who gets to decide what is "coercion" and what is not ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
The act states (or I so I read) "Based on his findings, the judge may introduce hearsay evidence [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(E)(i)], evidence obtained without a search warrant [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(B)], evidence obtained when the degree of coercion is disputed [10 U.S.C. sec. 948r(d)], or classified evidence not made available to the defense [10 U.S.C. sec. 949d(f)(2)(B)].

By your opening of "the act" I can only assume you cut and paste that directly from someone else. Did you plan on giving them credit?

I'm going to assume you mean the The United States Military Commissions Act of 2006.


Here is the act in question: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_cr/s3930.html

here is Section 948r

Quote:

''Sec. 948r. Compulsory self-incrimination prohibited;
statements obtained by torture or other methods of coercion

''(a) In General.--No person shall be required to testify
against himself at a proceeding of a military commission
under this chapter.
''(b) Statements Obtained by Torture.--A statement obtained
by use of torture shall not be admissible in a military
commission under this chapter, except against a person
accused of torture as evidence the statement was made.
''(c) Statements Obtained Before Enactment of Detainee
Treatment Act of 2005.--A statement obtained before December
30, 2005 (the date of the enactment of the Detainee Treatment
Act of 2005), in which the degree of coercion is disputed may
be admitted only if the military judge finds that--
''(1) the totality of the circumstances renders it reliable
and possessing sufficient probative value; and
''(2) the interests of justice would best be served by
admission of the statement into evidence.
''(d) Statements Obtained After Enactment of Detainee
Treatment Act of 2005.--A statement obtained on or after
December 30, 2005 (the date of the enactment of the Detainee
Treatment Act of 2005), in which the degree of coercion is
disputed may be admitted only if the military judge finds
that--
''(1) the totality of the circumstances renders it reliable
and possessing sufficient probative value;
''(2) the interests of justice would best be served by
admission of the statement into evidence; and
''(3) the interrogation methods used to obtain the
statement do not violate the cruel, unusual, or inhumane
treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and
14th Amendments to the United States Constitution.

A completely different animal then that which you attempted to present.

You may wish to pay particular attention to 948r(b) and 948r(d)(3)

You may also wish to remember that even if the law were written to the extent you present it, it is a Federal law... completely subservient to the Constitution. Hierarchy of laws, learn it.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 31):
Torture is morally repugnant (besides being completely unreliable).

Many things are morally repugnant yet we here in the United States must accept them as "normal" or face the wrath of the pc police of which there are many in the media. Torture has worked as has been shown in the case of several of the Al Queda big wigs that talked within seconds of being water boarded. Same ol story with that gang. They are too important to the cause to blow themselves up and sing like birds as soon as a little pain is inflicted on their overweight flea invested hides.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Some of you guys should really read RSF's statement before bashing the organisation.

I tried but they don't really have a mission statement other than to protest the fact that reporters aren't able to trample everyone elses rights to do their job.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
does not relativise the fact that some journalists could not do their work freely and without being threatened:

How is that the Danish governments fault? If you report something on a group that has already shown a tendency towards violence when you make fun of them or expose them for what they really are, what else should you expect? Some reporters must be awfully dumb. Of course we already knew that didn't we?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 38):
Many things are morally repugnant yet we here in the United States must accept them as "normal" or face the wrath of the pc police of which there are many in the media.

I presume you mean repugnant stuff like gay marriage, racial equality etc. Societal change is a bitch, huh ?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 37):
You may wish to pay particular attention to 948r(b) and 948r(d)(3)

That's good, but it only applies to statements obtained after the thingummy act of 2005. Section c says that statements obtained before the passage of this act can be admitted, even if there was a level of coercion. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):



Quoting Cornish (Reply 9):



Quoting 7474ever (Reply 17):



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):



Quoting Gilligan (Reply 38):

Are guys a bit thick or do you just automatically bag something you don't agree with ?

The index measures anything which influences the freedom of the press and for lots of resasons journo's in Denmark are a bit shy of saying bad things about muslems least they get their house torched or poodle BBQ'd. That is restraint on their expression and therefore a valid point to make.

The index doesn't say it's a good thing, just that it is ! Please read something properly before yapping.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Only arbitrary if you completely ignore mountains of case law that have determined over the last two hundred years what is and is not acceptable.

But let's take a quick coffee break real quick and review where this has gone.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 25):
How about information extracted under torture - that any good for you ? No jail time for that, it seems. Quite an odd contradiction, don't you think ?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
Section c says that statements obtained before the passage of this act can be admitted, even if there was a level of coercion

Hmm... from torture to coercion.. Quite a step back there.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9743
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 40):

Then tell me how you measure journalists feelings regarding a certain topic, because I don't see how that is possible  Wink

How are journalists supposed to know the reaction to their work beforehand? It all depends on the context of the article and how it is used.

I can tell you that neither the danish cartoonists nor the danish newspaper that published them had expected the reaction the cartoons would get. It's hard these days to figure out what pisses muslims off and what doesn't
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18556
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
As for your I got a bomb remark - that's just fuckin' stupid. Can YOU do that? Just hop on down to ORY or CDG, hop on a plane and yell, I have a bomb. Assinine . . .

He can't even say anything untoward about another country's (Turkey) alleged treatment of a minority.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1):
I just "love" the logic behind Denmark's falling from 1st to 19th place.

Another reason why I'm sceptical of this index.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 24):
Germany is ranked above the USA, yet it is illegal to say anything nice about Hitler, the Nazis, or to have any Nazi paraphernalia. It is also illegal to show the Swastika.

Yep....makes you wonder.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 38):
How is that the Danish governments fault?

I didn't say it's the government's fault, nor did RSF - quite to the contrary.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
I presume you mean repugnant stuff like gay marriage, racial equality etc. Societal change is a bitch, huh ?

There's plenty of other things besides those two although I think its humorous that I am expected to be able to figure out who someone likes sleeping without being able to inquire and on the other hand I'm supposed to tolerate anything that's thrown in my face or done in front of my child without my consent.

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 40):
Are guys a bit thick or do you just automatically bag something you don't agree with ?

Help, help, I'm being oppressed. wink  See how easy that was. This index is just stupid.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 42):
How are journalists supposed to know the reaction to their work beforehand?

You would have to be an idiot not to realize that the cartoon would create a backlash. A level of common sense should be the first requirement for any reporter, unfortunately it seems that it isn't.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 42):
can tell you that neither the danish cartoonists nor the danish newspaper that published them had expected the reaction the cartoons would get.

Then they are the most naive people on the face of the earth. Are there any good lookers in the bunch? If so I should fly over there cause I'm sure she'll believe I'm Brad Pitt and I'm tired of AJsly 

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 44):
I didn't say it's the government's fault

Yet the country gets dropped which is just what that implies since the government is in charge of insuring that there is a free press.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9743
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 45):
You would have to be an idiot not to realize that the cartoon would create a backlash. A level of common sense should be the first requirement for any reporter, unfortunately it seems that it isn't.



Quoting Gilligan (Reply 45):
Then they are the most naive people on the face of the earth. Are there any good lookers in the bunch? If so I should fly over there cause I'm sure she'll believe I'm Brad Pitt and I'm tired of AJ

An idiot you say? Um ok  Yeah sure Would you imagine that a cartoon would create uproar in all of the muslim world? ALL of the muslim world? And considering how many jokes they make about the West and Christians, it seems like they are living on double standards  Wink
I don't want to adjust to their culture when they come to my country. Those cartoons were published in Denmark. The middle east shouldn't act like they can decide what we publish and what we dont publish. Get it? If you don't you'd be the idiot here  Smile
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Tell me, SabenaBoy, what the fuck do you care where the US ranks in this bullshit. Where does Germany rank? Not like I care . . . but perhaps you could worry about GERMANY, and we'll worry about the US, eh? sarcastic

Folks, please keep in mind that these comments are coming from someone who has also repeatedly harassed fellow Americans who had the gall to challenge America's move to the conservative right. Making the case that America is moving away from our former ideal of welcomed diversity might be rather difficult without arrogant posts like this and the 'respect' ratings that they are able to garner.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
The act states (or I so I read) "Based on his findings, the judge may introduce hearsay evidence [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(E)(i)], evidence obtained without a search warrant [10 U.S.C. sec. 949a(b)(2)(B)], evidence obtained when the degree of coercion is disputed [10 U.S.C. sec. 948r(d)], or classified evidence not made available to the defense [10 U.S.C. sec. 949d(f)(2)(B)].

This would imply that evidence obtained with some degree of coercion is acceptible, as long as there is disagreement on the level of coercion used. Who gets to decide what is "coercion" and what is not ?

That's the way I read it as well. Compromises like this only serve to show that the current crop of patriotic wannabes like John McCain are really nothing but wimps who merely pretend to have sway over those who would willingly cast aside our former values.
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Rank 53

Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 17):
It that's the level of this survey, it means one thing only - absolutely nothing.

An expected-type comment from Israel (rank=50) - blame the messenger. I wasn't a bit surprised by the rankings, with the exception that Finland was number 1 (I would have expected to find it in the top 10 however).

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Freedom of speech is alive and well. this current "ranking" is just the product of a bunch of spoiled journalists who can't get their way.

An expected-type comment from the USA (rank=53) - denial.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 24):
Germany is ranked above the USA, yet it is illegal to say anything nice about Hitler, the Nazis, or to have any Nazi paraphernalia. It is also illegal to show the Swastika. Not that I like the Nazi's and Neo-Nazis, but it does show the politically correct bias of this poll (and it is a poll, not a study).

I'm not quite sure how to even reply to this comment, it's completely baffling.

If you look at mainstream US media, you'll immediately see it resembles media in the Soviet Union. When you look at German media, you'll see that they can print certain completely obvious truths (such that a majority of the population was against the invasion of Iraq). It immediately follows that it's completely correct to place Germany above the US in this list.

Noam Chomsky has written very perceptive texts on the US mainstream media (_Manufacturing Consent_ is the foremost and a seminal work on the subject)
 
solarix
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:56 am

RE: Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2006: USA At Ran

Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:28 am

I always laugh when people say we are losing our freedoms here in the US. Name me one freedom you have personally lost since George W. Bush took office. I can't find one. I'm just as free now as I was in 1995.

America allows citizens to own firearms. Many other countries do not.

In America I can legally take my scanner and listen to police communications. I know in the UK this would be illegal.

America has so much freedom of speech it produces clowns like Cindy Sheehan and other Hollywood kooks. No matter how much you disagree with them they still have a right to be idiots.

We allow Christians, Moslem's, and Jews to wear their religious items at schools. In France I hear it was banned.

In America people have a choice whether they serve in the military or not. Some other "free" countries don't give their citizens an option.

If America is oppressing so many people please tell me why everyone migrates here from other countries. I read somewhere that 90% of Egyptians hate America the most out of any other country, yet the same 90% put America down as their #1 country to immigrate to. Funny how that works.
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