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AerospaceFan
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Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:48 pm

The cross installed on the altar of a nondenominational chapel on the campus of a college originally associated with the Anglican Church has been removed by school authorities so that the area might be deemed "more welcoming" to those of all faiths, a local newspaper reports.

Please see:

http://flathat.wm.edu/story.php?issue=2006-10-06&type=1&aid=1

There is no word as to whether the removal of the cross has made the chapel "more welcoming" to Christians.

Although the report notes that the cross will still be available for display on specific religious occasions, it apparently has been replaced by nothing in particular, meaning that those who face the altar in its normal state will be praying in visual contemplation of nothing at all.

Perhaps an underlying message might be that when prayers are directed to nothing, there is nothing that is likely to result.

The chapel, thus considered, has been deconstructed into a temple for the promotion of nihilism in the guise of self-regard.

In view of the altered altar, it seems that where the chapel is concerned, perhaps the less, the merrier.

[Edited 2006-10-27 07:59:31]
 
DrDeke
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:03 pm

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

-DrDeke
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:07 pm

Key word: nondenominational

oh, BTW, I don't think Jesus needs a cross to hear your prayers.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:20 pm

Let's be respectful of the desires of Christians to preserve their heritage.

When the Taliban destroyed centuries-old Buddhist statues, the entire world condemned it. Yet when a Christian cross, in a chapel, is removed, irrespective of the heritage of the campus in which it exists, we see no indignation. I wonder why that is?
 
MKEdude
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:37 pm

William and Mary, the last time I checked, was a private college. Meaning that they don't owe anybody shit and they could turn the chapel into a titty bar if they wanted to.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:38 pm

Let's take a closer look at the article shall we:

The cross will be returned to the altar for those who wish to use it for events, services or private prayer. Student tour guides have been directed to pass any questions or complaints about the change on to administrators.

The cross was in place because of the College's former association with the Anglican Church. Though the College is now nondenominational and became publicly supported in 1906, the room will still be considered a chapel.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
When the Taliban destroyed centuries-old Buddhist statues, the entire world condemned it

This is most likely one of the worst analogies I have ever read here.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
Let's be respectful of the desires of Christians to preserve their heritage.

Who isn't?

If it is an interfaith chapel, would you rather have a Star of David, Crescent, Buddha, etc.?

Nothing will make you happy will it?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
This is most likely one of the worst analogies I have ever read here.

I'm not sure why. The historical aspect of both settings appear to exist.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
If it is an interfaith chapel, would you rather have a Star of David, Crescent, Buddha, etc.?

I certainly wouldn't mind going to a synagogue to pray if I saw one at Yeshiva University that was offered as a nondenominational refuge. And I'm not Jewish.

Incidentally, Yeshiva University is a highly respected institution of learning founded on the basis of the Jewish faith. It is located in New York.

Semiotically, the issue is complicated. Prayer to a specific symbol in the chapel case would hardly indicate conversion, but simply respect for evidence of any traditional faith, of which the cross is one.

Why are the feelings of Christians who may have revered the cross in the chapel in question apparently not considered important enough not to offend?

[Edited 2006-10-27 16:51:04]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
I'm not sure why. The historical aspect of both settings appear to exist.

Because nothing was destroyed.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
Incidentally, Yeshiva University is a highly respected institution of learning founded on the basis of the Jewish faith. It is located in New York.

Thanks for the info....I'll pass it along to my Rabbi.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
Semiotically, the issue is complicated. Prayer to a specific symbol in the chapel case would not indicate conversion, but simply respect for evidence of any traditional faith, of which the cross is one.

Again, do you really need to pray to an icon for g-d to hear your prayes.

BTW...who funds the chapel?
 
MattRB
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
Why are the feelings of Christians who may have revered the cross in the chapel in question apparently not considered important enough not to offend?

Because they're praying in a non-denominational chapel? Why should they expect a symbol of their faith to be openly display in a chapel that is non-denominational?

Any Christian who gets their ire up because of this, needs to have the pickle surgically removed from their posterior.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 8):
Because they're praying in a non-denominational chapel? Why should they expect a symbol of their faith to be openly display in a chapel that is non-denominational?

It's been nondenominational for decades, as far as I can see. Why the cross removal now?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):
BTW...who funds the chapel?

Who has funded the chapel for decades? Apparently, the public. And yet the cross is removed only now. Why?

I'd like to know why.
 
18161
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:40 am

I hate to see this happening. Please do things in black and white.

Two options:

1. If you want to call it a Chapel , leave the Cross there.

2. If you want to remove the Cross don't call it a Chapel.

Call it a Prayer room for all faiths. No problems so far as it is not funded by the Church.

There could be argument whether a Cross is needed in a Chapel, but since it was there, leave it there.

The reason shown as to make the Chapel more weloming by removing the Cross really misses the point.

[Edited 2006-10-27 18:00:22]
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 11):
The reason shown as to make the Chapel more weloming by removing the Cross really misses the point.

Yes, I would agree.

Perhaps the chapel should be eliminated altogether. That would be the ultimate in true nondenominationalism.
 
DrDeke
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):

When the Taliban destroyed centuries-old Buddhist statues, the entire world condemned it. Yet when a Christian cross, in a chapel, is removed, irrespective of the heritage of the campus in which it exists, we see no indignation. I wonder why that is?

When you ask in other threads why people start off with the assumption that you are being disingenuous, it's largely because of statements you make like the one above.

We KNOW that you are not stupid enough to actually not know the answer to the question you ask here, because the answer is painfully obvious. As you mentioned, the Buddhist statues which were DESTROYED were centuries old and irreplacable. There is no reason to suspect that the specific cross which was MOVED (not destroyed) from the chapel is centuries old or historically significant, and furthermore, no harm has been done to it.

It appears to me that what you are really doing is not asking a question, but rather that you are whining. If you want to whine or complain, that's your prerogative, but it would probably be less poorly received if you just come out and say it, rather than trying to couch it in terms of some kind of bogus intellectual inquiry.



Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Perhaps an underlying message might be that when prayers are directed to nothing, there is nothing that is likely to result.

Again, do you really think the presence or absence of a cross at the time of a prayer will make a difference in the "effectiveness" of the prayer??


-DrDeke
 
Jalto27R
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:33 am

My sister graduated from William and Mary about 3 years ago or so, and since then a number of her friends have gotten married at that Chapel. As she continuely whines "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." Buuttt that's just a tad off topic. I don't see anything wrong with the removal of the cross, and more than likely the college did it before some greedy person sued them for being offended by the presence of a cross in a non-denominational chapel. Although I am Catholic, I can't be offended by this because so many people take it so seriously. I personally wouldn't be offended visiting a non-denominational place of worship, and seeing symbols of multiple other faiths around me, but I guess some people take that to heart. I miss that campus, and that town. It was a nice four years of visits.

Mike
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:36 am

Pathetic!

It's about time people of "other faiths" learned to Integrate properly into society.

If you can't stand the western ideals, then move to a fully muslim country.

No, im not a racist....



Lee
 
18161
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 15):

If you can't stand the western ideals, then move to a fully muslim country.

No, im not a racist....

But where do you go if you don't like the eastern ideals?  Wink
 
Marco
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am

The time will come when the west will regret these sort of things. One day the west will be the battleground, just like Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Lebanon, etc ... people should learn from history. Defend your beliefs and your culture before you become extinct, like we the minorities of the middle east are becoming!
 
777236ER
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 17):
The time will come when the west will regret these sort of things.

It's a non-denominational chapel, for crying out loud!
 
arluna
Posts: 95
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:07 am

As a Christian I am saddened by the fact that the administration of this university felt compelled to bow to pressure to be politically correct, however, as a Christian, I do not need the symbol of the Cross present to pray. We do not pray to the Cross. The Cross is merely a reminder to Christians of the sacrifice made on our behalf therefore it's presence or the lack thereof isn't really important.

J
 
darrenthe747
Posts: 387
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Perhaps an underlying message might be that when prayers are directed to nothing, there is nothing that is likely to result.

Your god is one materialistic dude. Say you take people who are victims of a war and pray to god for their lives, or you take a person who is in the hospital on life support and the family members pray for their lives... Will god listen to those only who have a cross?

The prayers are directed at the omnipresent god.
 
777236ER
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Arluna (Reply 19):
As a Christian I am saddened by the fact that the administration of this university felt compelled to bow to pressure to be politically correct,

This isn't about political correctness. It's a non-denominational chapel!
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 16):
But where do you go if you don't like the eastern ideals?

South, to Antarctica Big grin

Plenty of room there  Wink


Lee
 
arluna
Posts: 95
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
This isn't about political correctness. It's a non-denominational chapel!

Did you read my whole post? Why else would they remove it? Probably because someone threatened to sue them if they didn't.

BTW, non-denominational generally refers to the christian religion (non-Baptist, non-United Methodist, non-Catholic, non-whatever else denomination you can name.) The proper term to use would be ECUMINICAL. (I may have spelled that word incorrectly.)

Instead of removing the Cross, why not put the symbols of all the other beliefs in the chapel? By doing that the chapel would then become truly "non-denominational."

J
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:15 am

I wouldn't worry about it. Christianity'll survive.
 
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vanguard737
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 24):
I wouldn't worry about it. Christianity'll survive.

Not if the secularist movement has its way - which it seems to get on each and every issue in the past 30 years. Oh well. It is sad, but the Bible warns us directly that the truth will eventually be rejected and dispised by man; that man will instead rejoice in the pleasures of the world and and worship himself. Simply a sign of the times. Not even worth getting worked up over anymore, in my opinion.

God bless.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
I don't think Jesus needs a cross to hear your prayers

...that dude that you replied could just as easily come back with something like (and this is just an example) "....I don't think God cares whether or not you have a yarmulka and are blowing a rams' horn" or just add the whatever other practice of another religion.

If the Cross offends someone, that person needs to either get over it quickly. Like last [email protected]
 
arluna
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Arluna (Reply 23):
ECUMINICAL

I did indeed misspell it, it's ecumenical.  embarrassed 
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:08 pm

This is a very tricky issue, and one that is not easily resolved.

Airport chapels have the same challenge. The vast majority are interfaith and interdenominational, and so the question is how do you respect diversity and peoples' religious experiences while at the same time be faithful to peoples' experiences.

When I worked at the chapel at ORD they had a pretty good setup that has become a model for the way other airport chapels operate:


  • The Blessed Sacrament is reserved for Catholics
  • There is a prayer rug and Sala times are posted, as well as the direction of the Ka'aba
  • A large bible is available. Copies of the Koran, as well as Jewish prayer articles are kept in the office and can be borrowed on request.
  • A cross is brought out when there are services. Also, the cross is reversable so that the corpus (i.e. the crucified Christ) is on one side, whereas the Protestants tend to prefer to turn it around so the corpus is not visable.
  • For Friday Juma Prayer the chairs are moved to one side of the chapel and a tarp is laid out for people to pray upon.


Things generally worked pretty well. The secret is that everyone has to understand that the chapel is used by all faiths, and the chapel is designed so it can be. Some may regret the cross at WM has been taken out, but one can also argue it may be a small price to pay to make the space welcoming for a broad range of faiths, and perhaps makes the place more welcoming as a result.

Charles, SJ
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:00 am

I think that perhaps the best solution in regard to airports is terminological. Perhaps what would otherwise be a "chapel" should be called a "meditation room", or something similar.

What strikes me as puzzling regarding the college case first-mentioned above is that it seems to fly in the face of the institution's own historical roots.

Because of the sensitivities involved, I would imagine that the college has, by now, received significant communications protesting its decision.

[Edited 2006-10-28 23:01:54]
 
DrDeke
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 13):

When you ask in other threads why people start off with the assumption that you are being disingenuous, it's largely because of statements you make like the one above.

Would you care to respond, or are you also being disingenuous when you ask why people think you are being disingenuous in your posts?

-DrDeke
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 13):
There is no reason to suspect that the specific cross which was MOVED (not destroyed) from the chapel is centuries old or historically significant, and furthermore, no harm has been done to it.

The principle involved is the same in that in both cases, there was a fear that a religious symbol relating to a faith not necessarily of those who regarded them would offend. In both cases, it was the fear of offense, as well as the historical significance of the statues, that was cause for action.
 
DrDeke
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RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:54 am

I see that once again you prefer to dodge the issue and try to let your thread fall into obscurity.

Let me remind you of what you said:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):

When the Taliban destroyed centuries-old Buddhist statues, the entire world condemned it. Yet when a Christian cross, in a chapel, is removed, irrespective of the heritage of the campus in which it exists, we see no indignation. I wonder why that is?

It is utterly ridiculous to claim that "the principle is the same" between a government destroying ancient, irreplaceable objects of historical significance and a private organization moving a modern, non-irreplaceable religious symbol from one place in a building to another.

We all know you're smart enough to understand this, yet you continually ask why people think your questions are dishonest and appeal for people to debate "on your terms". Well, I've called you out on it here and you clearly have no good response.


-DrDeke
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Christian Symbol Removed From Chapel

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 32):
It is utterly ridiculous to claim that "the principle is the same" between a government destroying ancient, irreplaceable objects of historical significance and a private organization moving a modern, non-irreplaceable religious symbol from one place in a building to another.

I've already said that principle of respect for religious heritage is the same. The magnitude may be different, but that doesn't mean that the principle is necessarily different.

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