frequentflyer
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French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:38 am

Take off and live
 
cfalk
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:59 am

Sounds pretty familiar. The French sold Roland III anti-aircraft missiles to Saddam even while sanctions were in place prior to the 2003 Iraq war.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1099272003

The US downplayed the whole issue due to desires of improving strained US-French relations, but it's one more lesson as to who are your real friends in the world.
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aloges
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:00 am

To sum it up, I think the Middle East that has been FUBAR for thousands of years will remain so for a long, long time. As for the issue at hand - when you've got a nation's armed forces violating a UN resolution that blatantly and sending little "messages" to your ally's (Germany's) ships, you have every right to send back a little message of your own.

It's a war of gestures. And lastly, I think Israel needs a more level-headed government and a wiser military leadership. I never thought I'd be one day wishing for Sharon to be in power, but now I'd love to see him back.
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sprout5199
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Thread starter):
French UN Troops

French UN troops? I guess this disproves the double negative rule.  flamed   stirthepot 

Dan in Jupiter
 
MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:05 am

Wow, the French officer in charge must be an idiot.

What does he think the Israelis are going to do when he puts a rocket in the air? Kill alot of French soldiers is what the Israelis are going to do if that happens.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
aloges
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
it's one more lesson as to who are your real friends in the world.

Yes, France and Israel are, for example. Some of their military may not be getting along perfectly well at this moment, but that certainly doesn't turn them into enemies of each other or the US.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
What does he think the Israelis are going to do when he puts a rocket in the air? Kill alot of French soldiers is what the Israelis are going to do if that happens.

Of course. Certainly. And the IAF are such idiots they don't know there's going to be one huge mess should they ever "kill alot (sic) of French soldiers".  sarcastic   Yeah sure
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MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
Of course. Certainly. And the IAF are such idiots they don't know there's going to be one huge mess should they ever "kill alot (sic) of French soldiers".

With the very threatening RC-12?

Killer King Airs?

I'll give you ten to one that a French missile launch get's an hit from Isreali counterbattery fire.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
aloges
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
I'll give you ten to one that a French missile launch get's an hit from Isreali counterbattery fire.

I'm not a betting man, but I'm quite sure there won't be any launches of French missiles at Israeli jets.  Wink Just like there haven't been any bomb drops by IAF jets recently; I haven't exactly been following the news, though. My main point is that it's

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
a war of gestures.

I'm sure neither the French nor the Israelis are keen on opening fire on each other.
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Pope
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:01 am

In related news, the commander of France's contingent of UN troops just surrendered. In the peace negotiations France gave up the Latin Quarter of Paris.  Wink
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
cfalk
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
Yes, France and Israel are, for example.

Neither are truely America's friends.

Jacques Chirac has made it quite clear since the seventies that he sees the US as less of an ally but rather a strategic competitor for global influence and, frankly, business. He has said in the past that he wants to see American foreign influence and capability reduced to make room for European hegemony.

I don't blame him for this. It's not easy to see your owncountry's influence decline while other country's increase, as has happened to the French over the past 60+ years. Naturally he wants a bigger piece of the pie, as we pretty much all do.

My anger is at people who refuse to see reality, and who think that just because the US and France fought side-by-side a few times that French national priorities and aspirations match those of the USA. These are the Kumbaya nuts. We have a good relationship with the French, but we will NEVER see eye-to-eye on all issues. They are looking after their own interests, as should we. We can bend them a bit for the sake of freindship and accomodation, but neither should break on principles.

Same goes with every country, including England and Canada, with whom the US enjoys probably the best relations of all. Sometimes we will disagree. It doesn't mean that either is wrong - just that interests don't always match.

Israel is a special case which I could write a book on. Israel has a siege mentality (which is well deserved) and they look after #1 first and foremost. I'd say that the US is more Israel's friend than the reverse, but there are also valid reasons for that.
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):
Israel is a special case which I could write a book on. Israel has a siege mentality (which is well deserved) and they look after #1 first and foremost. I'd say that the US is more Israel's friend than the reverse, but there are also valid reasons for that.

I agree with your post CFalk ; I would be interested to know why you think that "the US is more Israel's friend than the reverse" and the valid reasons you hinted at? I assumed it was a level relationship, and rightfully so.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Thread starter):
Makes you wonder...

and to read the following : """ two Israeli reconnaissance RC12 aircraft were circling above the headquarters of the French battalion located in Jabal Marun," east of the southern port city of Tyre """
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not only ignoring President Chirac and General Pellegrini and treating them as being hot-air, but also such gestures, simply is a bit too much. Add to this that the French have to hand over command there to Italy fairly soon, and you may understand that I can well imagine that the French WILL shoot, and even may succeed.
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Your president then possibly will protest to President Chirac about an "exaggerated extreme reaction" and will talk about a terrible result of the "war on terror". Mr Olmert will threaten to bomb southern quarters of Paris and to bomb France back into the time of the French Revolution.  sarcastic   scratchchin 
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Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
What does he think the Israelis are going to do when he puts a rocket in the air? Kill alot of French soldiers is what the Israelis are going to do if that happens.

So that you suggest the French have to accept all humiliation and all such behaviour from the Israeli side ? To accept to be ridiculed and shown as idiots by arrogant Israelis ?? If the Israelis try to kill French soldiers, France will find ways to reply. The Israelis, of course with the support of the White House, apparently have now gone a bit too far.
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Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
I'm not a betting man, but I'm quite sure there won't be any launches of French missiles at Israeli jets.

I simply hope that the Israelis show some common sense and stop these flights. To "monitor arms smugglers" by overflights of military jets ? Just rubbish. These overflyings have just been demonstrations of force.
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Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):
England

just a tiny correction. The USA does NOT have relations with England. The USA neither has relations with Wales or Scotland. The USA maintains relations with "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", in short with GREAT BRITAIN .
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MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
So that you suggest the French have to accept all humiliation and all such behaviour from the Israeli side ?

Yes, the extreme humiliation of being circled by a King Air.

That's definately pretty high up on my list of things to kill people over. GOD DAMN KING AIR!!!!!! sarcastic 

While I'm thinking about it.. what exactly is happening over at the French HQ that must be hidden even to the cost of shooting at snooping Israeli aircraft?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
If the Israelis try to kill French soldiers

If the Israelis try to kill French soldiers, then the French are more than welcome to have at.

Have the Israelis tried to kill any French soldiers?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
These overflyings have just been demonstrations of force.

OMFG NOT THE KING AIR!!! IT'S TOO POWERFULLLLZZZZZZ111
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
cfalk
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 10):
I would be interested to know why you think that "the US is more Israel's friend than the reverse" and the valid reasons you hinted at? I assumed it was a level relationship, and rightfully so.

What is a friend? A true friend is someone who, if you need him, will drop everything to help you. It is a person you know won't let you down or put his own interests ahead of yours.

This is why no coutry is truely the friend of another, because even the UK has not always done what would have helped the US. That's fine. Friendship between countries is more of a scale, and no country would top maybe 90%.

The US has gone out of its way to defend Israel many, many times, either with military, economic or diplomatic aid. The US pretty rarely acts against Israel's percieved interests. Israel on the other hand has proven to be more ready to ignore US interests when it suited them. They justify this by pointing out that they are a very small country the size of Connecticut, surrounded by peoples who would like to see nothing more than to see them all die. That's a hard argument to ignore.
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aloges
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):

Thanks for discussing!  Smile

I agree with a lot of what you said, but the main picture isn't exactly what I'd paint*. Obviously, one can easily conclude that all countries on this planet compete with others, or each other, in some kind of way. Some fight wars, some bully and some cooperate, yet still don't do everything together.

But what could make two of them "friends"? I don't agree they'd have to have as much in common as you implied, particularly if their pasts differ as much as the the US and France's pasts. By my definition, a friend will help if he agrees with what you're about to do, and he'll discuss and try to stop you if he disagrees. Essentially, that's what happened before the current war in Iraq.

It's a well-known fact that the Bush admin didn't like that disagreement, the soon-to-be former secretary of defence deserving special mention, but we shouldn't forget that a) both France and the US are democratic nations, b) they can take and have taken many an imprtant decision together (UN security council) and c) they share the interest in an economically and politically stable world.

A) means that those representatives who fought the verbal battles of the past acted out of complex reasons, not just for the sake of having the last word. When it comes to international politics, you need to remember that the politicians dealing in it try to make a good impression on their (potential) voters, try to keep good relations with a number of countries that shouldn't be jeopardised for being "extra good friends" with just one of them and so on.

B) can show how they've acted together in the past - a voting record, if you will. Like I said, a friend should never agree on everything but do what he deems his best for you.

C) means that there's not only a shared interest in stability, but also a shared duty to try and preserve it. Military intervention is usually seen as a last resort, for that reason military cooperation between two countries isn't the best indicator for friendly relations between them. The fact that in both the US and France, children are taught that their respective nations are "the Great" ones doesn't quite make things easier, but as long as the two self-proclaimed greatest places on earth cooperate in the civilian sector, they can be friends without having to fight together to prove it.

* sorry about that figure by the way  Wink
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cfalk
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
just a tiny correction. The USA does NOT have relations with England. The USA neither has relations with Wales or Scotland. The USA maintains relations with "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", in short with GREAT BRITAIN .

You got me. I often refer to the UK and England interchangably. My bad.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
two Israeli reconnaissance RC12 aircraft were circling above the headquarters of the French battalion located in Jabal Marun,"



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
To "monitor arms smugglers" by overflights of military jets ? Just rubbish. These overflyings have just been demonstrations of force.

The RC-12 is a radio-controled airplane like this one below. A show of force? Who is going to be intimidated by this thing? Maybe a dragonfly...

The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
The RC-12 is a radio-controled airplane like this one below.

The RC-12 operated by 191 Sqn are King Air derivatives.

Still, very unscary.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
OU812
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:10 am

Cfalk,
Good stuff !

Now I know why Bush likes the weaker dollar ! It kills France's EADS/Airbus A380 program ! sarcastic 

From your article :
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1099272003

Polish troops discover four French missiles in Iraq

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_...oes/n20061108030309990016?cid=1205

EADS Slips To 3Q Loss On Airbus Woes, Weak Dollar
Dow Jones
 
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:19 am

Quick question - if you were Israeli, would you trust the UN with your security?

Out of 175 UN Security Council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel; Out of 690 General Assembly Resolutions, 429 were against Israel.
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cfalk
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
C) means that there's not only a shared interest in stability, but also a shared duty to try and preserve it.

In a natural state, I would agree. But stability is not always what is called for. Sometimes (fairly rarely) you have to kick over the anthill in order to achieve a goal that would not otherwise be possible. For example, if a government is headed by a tyrant, would it not be beneficial for there to be some kind of revolution to get rid of him. The Romanian revolution for example that put an end to Caucescu's reign in 1989.

In 2003, the US believed that the same logic applied - that everything else had been tried, and it was time to kick over the anthill - that this was the only way to break the stalemate in Iraq. Unfortunately there turned out to be a few more ants in there than we thought...

France and some other countries disagreed.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
It's a well-known fact that the Bush admin didn't like that disagreement, the soon-to-be former secretary of defence deserving special mention,

Nobody LIKES disagreement, but it put the US in a bind. One aspect that never got the attention it deserved is how the US was in a go/no-go decision point that was fairly permenant either way. You might recall how congress bitched at the cost of deploying all those troops to Kuwait in late 2002. You might also recall that the summer heat was coming, and that it is impossible for men to fight in 130F heat while wearing full chem-war gear. He delayed the invasion to the last possible day, you might recall. There was a firm deadline by when the US either had to use the troops or stand down for 8 months and wait for the cooler weather to return. Considering the mood of congress and of neigboring arab states, there was no way that the US could maintain a large standing army in Kuwait for that amount of time - the troops would have come home, and it is extremely unlikely that Congress would have authorized a deployment again the following year.

Bush faced a decision where he either had to kick over the anthill right now, or leave and never try again. Of course, once the threat of invasion was gone, Saddam would return to his previous ways. Bush decided that he had to kick.

France and Russia (among others) tried to delay the process long enough that the US would be forced to withdraw its troops. It almost worked. I believe that their main motivation was, as you say, "stability". Both France and Russia had made huge lucrative contracts with Saddam and did not want Saddam deposed.

Stability served their purposes, instability best served the interests of the US and 40 other nations. In their opinion.
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Schoenorama
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 12):
Yes, the extreme humiliation of being circled by a King Air.

That's definately pretty high up on my list of things to kill people over. GOD DAMN KING AIR!!!!!!



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
The RC-12 is a radio-controled airplane like this one below. A show of force? Who is going to be intimidated by this thing? Maybe a dragonfly...

Have you guys actually read the article? Its' very first phrase is pretty clear on the issue of what, when and how:

"French UN anti-aircraft batteries have taken "preparatory steps" to respond to Israeli jets violating Lebanese airspace, despite global criticism of such incursions."

Note it says violating Lebanese airspace.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 12):
Have the Israelis tried to kill any French soldiers?

The Israeli jets shouldn't have been there in the first place! The unanimously approved UN resolution 1701 clearly stipulates this and is part of the cease-fire agreement.

A bit further down the original article it says: "In one instance, two Israeli F15 jets flew over the area at low altitude and high speed. And what about all those other incidents involving Israeli jets and UNIFIL troops? "On Oct. 31, Israeli fighter planes nose-dived repeatedly over French peace- keepers' positions in southern Lebanon, French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie told the French parliament on Nov. 8 -- when the incident became first became public" (1) or the 2 German Navy vessels which experienced a similar 'welcoming' by the Israeli Airforce?


I don't know exactly how the US Military works but I would imagine that if they were to enforce a cease-fire in an area in which incursions by either party are clear violations of that cease-fire and they would find their positions overflown and 'targeted' repeatedly (14 times in just one day, for example) by either party in a clear violation of that cease-fire, I would imagine that they would at least take some cautionary measures when they find themselves suddenly faced with a cease-fire violating party with high-tech weaponry.



(1) http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...ory?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
I don't know exactly how the US Military works but I would imagine that if they were to enforce a cease-fire in an area in which incursions by either party are clear violations of that cease-fire and they would find their positions overflown and 'targeted' repeatedly (14 times in just one day, for example) by either party in a clear violation of that cease-fire, I would imagine that they would at least take some cautionary measures when they find themselves suddenly faced with a cease-fire violating party with high-tech weaponry.

they would act ! both by protesting diplomatically but most likely by shooting down the "overfliers" .
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but they apparently expect the French to accept such F15 and smaller planes doing such operations
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AirTranTUS
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:30 am

The French may need to practice before they fire at Israeli jets. When was the last time they fired a weapon at anything? (Spraying water a year ago doesn't count.)
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pelican
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:35 am

I find some of those incidents quite disturbing. What reason has the IAF for threatening UN-troops. For example the Israeli Government wanted the German Navy to be there. Nonetheless they acted in a way which I would call threatening. So what does the IAF hope to achieve?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
With the very threatening RC-12?

Killer King Airs?



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 12):
OMFG NOT THE KING AIR!!! IT'S TOO POWERFULLLLZZZZZZ111

Have you read the article? As Schoenorama pointed out - there were also incidents with F15s.

pelican
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:00 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
what does the IAF hope to achieve?

It in all cases, the overflying of Beirut with F-15, the overflying and shooting around above German ships, the overflying of the UN-troops with various airplanes, simply a SHOW-OF-FORCE, and a demonstration of power. They want to ridicule the UN-forces and the Lebanese. They want to show who is powerful there. BUT such bully-shows in the longer run become completely unacceptable for the UN-troops and General Pellegrini who in a fairly near future has to hand over command to an Italian general possibly wants to achieve a change before that. To REPEAT it, what the Israelis do simply goes too far and is absolutely unacceptable. And the Israelis should have a close look to what happened with those IvoryCoast forces who thought that the French can easily be intimidated.
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I however hope that the Israelis show some common sense.
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NoUFO
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:04 am

The French take their rubust mandate for real. Bummer.

Both parties, Israel and Libanon, have to acknowledge that UN forces currently form the military authority between the borders of the two opposing countries and the Lebanese sea. Furthermore, they have to acknowledge that the very nature of a "robust" mandate entiles the UN to use violence against each party trying to undemine the UN's mandate.
Other than some people here seem to believe, they don't have to wait for a real life threatening attack.

France and Germany were basically invited by both - Israel and Libanon - to join the UN forces due to their more intermediary approach. Since both countries had to have a word with thier respective Israeli ambassador, Israel should know by know that some of their servicemen/women were playing with fire.
It's good that those "fake attacks" came to a stop.

And just for the record: This was written by someone who spent quite some time to improve the relationship between Germans and Polish Jews.

[Edited 2006-11-18 17:17:32]
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baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
France and Germany were basically invited by both - Israel and Lebanon - to join the UN forces due to their more intermediary approach. Since both countries had to have a word with their respective Israeli ambassador, Israel should know by know that some of their servicemen/women were playing with fire.
It's good that those "fake attacks" came to a stop.

The hostility towards the French from some posters on this thread is quite unreal given the fact that by being there the French UN force is trying to save the face for both Israel and its prominent supporter in devastating Lebanon, the US.

Then again, why not offer US troops to go in?
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
Then again, why not offer US troops to go in?

Gee, why not golf in a lightning storm?

I'm sure you get what I'm saying by that.

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MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
Note it says violating Lebanese airspace.

Holy crap!!!

You mean that yet again both sides aren't following UN mandates and UN peacekeeping forces are yet again an anemic, useless force that couldn't enforce speed limits?

Wow, great reason to start poping off missiles!

remind me to referance this thread next time someone blathers about violence. After all according to MAF, airplanes circling your head is reason to kill people, but teaching people the military exists in school is disgusting...  faint 

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
I don't know exactly how the US Military works but I would imagine that if they were to enforce a cease-fire in an area in which incursions by either party are clear violations of that cease-fire and they would find their positions overflown and 'targeted' repeatedly (14 times in just one day, for example) by either party in a clear violation of that cease-fire, I would imagine that they would at least take some cautionary measures when they find themselves suddenly faced with a cease-fire violating party with high-tech weaponry.

Actually, or peacekeeping ROE were very specific about when we could even load our weapons, much less fire them. It always mandated incoming fire directed at us. Not threatening acts, not even random fire. Fire had to be incoming on us specifically before we could even lock up.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
Have you read the article? As Schoenorama pointed out - there were also incidents with F15s.

Unlesss the IAF got some mud hens, buzzing anyone with an F-15 isn't much of a threat either.

Want a threat, start hoveing some loaded longbows on around.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 27):
Gee, why not golf in a lightning storm?

Quite, so why do some not want to try and be just a tad supportive of the French doing something that not many others have been willing to do?
 
MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Quite, so why do some not want to try and be just a tad supportive of the French doing something that not many others have been willing to do?

You may have missed the differacne in being supportive of the French, and being supportive of a moronic French commander who treads dangerously close to opening another shooting war in the region by threatening to pop off missiles.

Can't the UN figure some way to put planes in the region and fly a CAP? Last I checked, France had an airforce.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
pacificjourney
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 27):
Gee, why not golf in a lightning storm?

I'm sure you get what I'm saying by that.

Yes but you clearly didn't get what he meant.

Someone whose country's integrity is so compromised in the region that they would be unable to even contemplate the current French mission should be very careful about slandering the efforts of those who are putting actual boots on the ground.

Put up or shut up would have been my words.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):

You may have missed the differacne in being supportive of the French, and being supportive of a moronic French commander who treads dangerously close to opening another shooting war in the region by threatening to pop off missiles.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are French so they are stupid. I just hope you need the French in a tight spot sometime or other. Oh, hell I forgot again, you ARE in a tight spot and need them now. banghead 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
Can't the UN figure some way to put planes in the region and fly a CAP? Last I checked, France had an airforce.

Indeed they do. I am sure they would like to test the Rafale. Be careful what you wish for.

[Edited 2006-11-19 04:12:13]
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
Wow, great reason to start poping off missiles!

Popping off missiles? It's obvious you still haven't read the article.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
Actually, or peacekeeping ROE were very specific about when we could even load our weapons, much less fire them. It always mandated incoming fire directed at us. Not threatening acts, not even random fire. Fire had to be incoming on us specifically before we could even lock up.

I'm afraid you're still making things up to save your ass (or what's left of it) in this discussion. So now you want me to believe that the U.S. forces, while on a peace-keeping mission to enforce a cease-fire would NOT ready their weapons the moment it catches either party not only clearly violating that cease-fire, but more importantly, threathening U.S. peace-keeping forces?

And all this after you accuse the UN Forces of being anemic? Wow!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
Can't the UN figure some way to put planes in the region and fly a CAP? Last I checked, France had an airforce.

And what do you suggest the French or any other UNIFIL airpatrol do when encountering Israeli jets where they aren't supposed to be (with 14 such incursions in just one day, such an encounter would be extremely likely)?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are French so they are stupid. I just hope you need the French in a tight spot sometime or other.

Mind showing me any where I said anything about the French being stupid?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Be careful what you wish for.

I'm I to believe that in addition to making up things I might have said, you also can't comprehend running intercepts on aircraft without taking pot shots?

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 33):
Popping off missiles? It's obvious you still haven't read the article.

So, the French aren't threatening to fire on Israeli aircraft after all? Odd...

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 33):
So now you want me to believe that the U.S. forces...

That is exactly what I am saying.

You can believe it or not, I lived it. United States Army, 3rd ID 3rd MP Battalion. UNPROFOR/IFOR/SFOR/KFOR, Bosnia/Kosovo. It sucked.

Now, if you would like to tell me what Peacekeeping force you were ever part of, and what your ROE were I'll listen.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 33):
And all this after you accuse the UN Forces of being anemic? Wow!

Yeah, we were under the umbrella of UN command.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 33):
And what do you suggest the French or any other UNIFIL airpatrol do when encountering Israeli jets where they aren't supposed to be (with 14 such incursions in just one day, such an encounter would be extremely likely)?

The word "intercept" comes to mind. The UN may have to take instruction from the USAF and USN who almost daily ran intercepts on Russian bombers without incident for decades.

[Edited 2006-11-19 05:38:42]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Quite, so why do some not want to try and be just a tad supportive of the French doing something that not many others have been willing to do?

Not sure, but don't tie my opinion in as being the same.

Mine is more of an overall disdain for a weak mandate. This one caught my eye here...

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
You mean that yet again both sides aren't following UN mandates and UN peacekeeping forces are yet again an anemic, useless force that couldn't enforce speed limits?

Followed by...

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
Wow, great reason to start poping off missiles!

Ok, here's the deal, on one hand you complain that the UN is weak and is unable to control either side. Yet now the UN force is preparing guns against Israeli flyovers and you complain that it goes too far?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 35):
Ok, here's the deal, on one hand you complain that the UN is weak and is unable to control either side. Yet now the UN force is preparing guns against Israeli flyovers and you complain that it goes too far?

Not that it goes too far, but that it goes the wrong way entirely.

UN peacekeeping forces are by their nature almost always short on men and firepower. They are always out numbered by the locals, usually pretty much regarded as invading third party interlopers, and generally equipped as a light infantry company. UN forces exist by attempting to get along. Not by attempting to rule by force. They can enforce their will only by gaining the respect of the people they hope to effect. You can't plop enough UN troops in to rule by the gun.

What will shooting at Israeli aircraft accomplish? Will it make the IAF realize the UN is serious and it needs to stop playing around, or will it convince Israel that the UN is in fact just a playground for thugs and dictators that have it out for Israel?

In order to effect the better of those two possible outcomes, the UN would have to show Israel that they are being equally tough on the Hezzies. What does the UN currently have to show Israel that they are being tough on the Hezzies too? Israel doesn't even have their kidnapped soldiers back. It's going to be very hard to convince them anything is being done about the Hezzies. Also on the bad side for the UN effort... Notice no one bothered to answer the question I posed in reply #12? Why are the UN forces keen on shooting down an Israeli recognisance plane? If I were Israel I would think that looks mighty suspicious. Shouldn't the operation of the UN peacekeeping forces be transparent?

If I were the UN, I wouldn't be so gung ho to get the missiles lined up, I would be busy trying to find out why Israel seems to think they need so many aircraft buzzing around. I suspect the answer to be that Israel doesn't believe the UN force is doing anything productive to stop the Hezzies and feels the need to make their continued presence known to the Hezzies.

However, if the UN sees fit to play a game of military escalation, they should remember that is a game the UN always loses.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
supportive of a moronic French commander who treads dangerously close to opening another shooting war in the region by threatening to pop off missiles.


you now simply blame the French for a development which is the fault of the Israelis

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
Can't the UN figure some way to put planes in the region and fly a CAP? Last I checked, France had an airforce.

The number of aircraft carriers of the French is limited and there is no military airport in South Lebanon. I hope that such an airbase gets established as soon as possible

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are French so they are stupid. I just hope you need the French in a tight spot sometime or other.
--
Mind showing me any where I said anything about the French being stupid?

in post 30, you slandered General Pellegrini as "moronic"
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
And what do you suggest the French or any other UNIFIL airpatrol do when encountering Israeli jets where they aren't supposed to be (with 14 such incursions in just one day, such an encounter would be extremely likely)?
--
The word "intercept" comes to mind. The UN may have to take instruction from the USAF and USN who almost daily ran intercepts on Russian bombers without incident for decades.

Where you are right, you ARE right ! Not enough attention is given to the possibility of regular interception flights of either the French or the Italian Air Force from a Greek (NATO) airbase over the South of Lebanon. And as long as the Lebanese do not (yet) have ground-attack or reconnaissance/strike fighters, but only some outdated surveillance helicopters, also over Lebanon mainland (in conjunction with the Lebanese authorities).
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
needs to stop playing around, or will it convince Israel that the UN is in fact just a playground for thugs and dictators that have it out for Israel?

at present, the UN forces in South Lebanon are mis-used as a playground for the Israelis. I do NOT say the Israelis are "thugs" but they show off as schoollground-bullies.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
the UN would have to show Israel that they are being equally tough on the Hezzies. What does the UN currently have to show Israel

in the past few months, the UN forces have NOT been tough on the Israelis at all, but have tolerated that misbehaviour. As long as they do not show to be tough on the Israelis they canNOT be "heavy" on Hizbullah. AND they, together with the Lebanese army, have taken over the border area militarily, which IS an important difference to what it has been before. The point is that the Hizbullah activists canNOT shoot at Israel again.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
Why are the UN forces keen on shooting down an Israeli

first of all, we speak about different airplanes, reconnaissance planes as well as F-15 etc. Second, the UN forces are NOT "keen" on shooting down any such airplane, but have threatened that they in future had to shoot at such planes.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
to find out why Israel seems to think they need so many aircraft buzzing around

rubbish ! What the Israelis think is business for psychiatrists, and is completely irrelevant. What however needs to be stopped is their overflying of Lebanon with their airforce gear .
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
a game of military escalation

what the U.N. has to show is that its forces not just control (in conjunction with the Lebanese army) the border-zone, but that they also keep the Israelis in check, as they otherwise are perceived as tools and pawns in the hands of the Israeli bullies.
-
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
you now simply blame the French for a development which is the fault of the Israelis

No, I blame a French commander for choosing a route that is a very dangerous escalation and very likely to lead back to a shooting war.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
The number of aircraft carriers of the French is limited and there is no military airport in South Lebanon.

Is Lebanon too big to operate an aircraft from Beruit then?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
in post 30, you slandered General Pellegrini as "moronic"

Yes, the French commander. Not, "the French."

If I say an American commander is a moron am I taking shots at Americans?


So let me sum up the rest of your post and see if I get it right. The UN is being hard on the Hezzies and has shut them down (lol) and should be extremely strict on Israel, even if that means taking the chance of re-igniting a shooting war that the UN peacekeepers have almost zero chance of surviving?

Gee... I want you as my unit commander....


BTW, you dodged the question:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
first of all, we speak about different airplanes, reconnaissance planes as well as F-15 etc. Second, the UN forces are NOT "keen" on shooting down any such airplane, but have threatened that they in future had to shoot at such planes.
-

Why doesn't the UN commander want Israel to know what is going on so much that they will shoot down snooping recon planes?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
What the Israelis think is business for psychiatrists, and is completely irrelevant.

Finding out what makes the other side tick, and how to alter their opinions is called Diplomacy. Contrary to your belief, it is the job of a peace keeping force.

You don't really believe that troops go in wearing blue helmets and every one suddenly decides to get along with each other do you?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
what the U.N. has to show is that its forces not just control (in conjunction with the Lebanese army) the border-zone, but that they also keep the Israelis in check,

A guy who can't even tell the front and back of a tank apart is in favor of violent military escalation on the part of an undermanned, out gunned force in foreign territory?

Guess maybe they should mandate some in school military education in your public school system, because your idea of military operations if frackin suicidal.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
Mind showing me any where I said anything about the French being stupid?



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are French so they are stupid. I just hope you need the French in a tight spot sometime or other.
--
Mind showing me any where I said anything about the French being stupid?

in post 30, you slandered General Pellegrini as "moronic"

I do not mind at all doing that MDorBust Big grin

MAF has in effect answered for me but maybe MDB knoweth not the meaning of "moronic".

The OED gives a strict definition of moron (and moronic is of, or pertaining, to moron) as "Adult with intelligence equivalent to that of an average child of 11-12" (years) with a colloquial meaning of "very stupid or degenerate person". So perhaps I owe you an apology, you must have meant "very stupid". I will not make the same mistake again.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 35):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Quite, so why do some not want to try and be just a tad supportive of the French doing something that not many others have been willing to do?

Not sure, but don't tie my opinion in as being the same.

Indeedy no Boeing4, I was trying specifically to exclude all who had made good posts. Perhaps it was trying to hard to be polite to the attack dogs, but I certainly did not wish to include the many with a reasoned and reasonable approach.

I think MAF has summarised the situation well. The French cannot act solely against the Hez if the lsraelis are also transgressing. That is Lebanese air space as has been stated repeatedly. Big grin

For those still paying attention, a famous episode occurred many years ago when a member of our Parliament stated that another member had the brains of an ass. The exchange went as follows (members are referred to by the name of the electorate which they represent). This is from memory and I apologise if it is not correct, but it is close to what was said:

Member: The Honorable Member for X has the brains of an ass.

Speaker: You will withdraw that remark, it is unparliamentary

Member: Certainly Mr Speaker, the Honorable Member for X does not have the brains of an ass.
 
MDorBust
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
I do not mind at all doing that MDorBust

Okay, for the future I'll note that neither you, nor MAF can distinguish between "the French" and a Frenchman.

Unless that is, you both happen to believe that calling a single Frenchman a moron somehow implies the same for all French every where.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 31):
Yes but you clearly didn't get what he meant.

Someone whose country's integrity is so compromised in the region that they would be unable to even contemplate the current French mission should be very careful about slandering the efforts of those who are putting actual boots on the ground.

Put up or shut up would have been my words.

Interesting little piece here. Shame I didn't catch it earlier. I'm sure you know what I meant, but ignored it for the sake of the flag next to my username. It's because of the current issues in the Middle East, the Iraq war, on-going war on terror, and this unfortunate tendency of the politicians in Washington to just support Israel that makes any US presence in the region akin to a golf club in a lightning storm.

In other words, I was agreeing with Baroque. Anything else Pacificjourney? I'm waiting.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
OU812
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are French so they are stupid. I just hope you need the French in a tight spot sometime or other.

Mind showing me any where I said anything about the French being stupid?

Baroque ,
You have a habit of making completely false statements about other a-netters in an attempt to slime your opposition . You attempted to do the same to me in another thread in the civil aviation forum ! MDorBust did not make any such statement & he has been able to express his knowledge on this matter in a civil & most articulately manner . Unfortunately , Baroque's actions are equivalent to that of an average child of 11-12 child ! Instead of discussing the issue at hand , he resorts to making false statements in an effort to dodge the issue at hand !

Let just call this the Baroque callow shuffle !

http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008672

The U.N.'s years-long record on the Israel-Lebanon border makes mockery of the term "peacekeeping." On page 155 of my book, "Inside the Asylum," is a picture of a U.N. outpost on that border. The U.N. flag and the Hezbollah flag fly side by side. Observers told me the U.N. and Hezbollah personnel share water and telephones, and that the U.N. presence serves as a shield against Israeli strikes against the terrorists.
 
baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):
Unless that is, you both happen to believe that calling a single Frenchman a moron somehow implies the same for all French every where.

Well you see, it is my understanding that in the French army, the commanders are rather smarter than the average garcon. Of course we could be entirely wrong on that. So if the commander is stated to be very stupid (or even just stupid) with our linear programming sort of minds, I just jumped to the apparently unwarranted assumption that the less smart were being assessed as even more stupid.

Meaning must be flexible so that as a Frenchman once said of another military event, "C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pa la guerre" which we now can roughly translates as "It is magnificent but it is not a railway station.

And well, basically, speaking for myself, I just thought that was not all that productive a way to discuss what the French were doing.  half   headache 
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):

The US downplayed the whole issue due to desires of improving strained US-French relations, but it's one more lesson as to who are your real friends in the world.

Didn't the US support Taliban many years ago?

So what's the difference?

Also if Israeli jets are violating Lebanese airspace then Lebanon have a right to do something about it. Israel can't just shit on other countries' rules to suit its own needs. I don't think Israel would like it if Lebanon had fighters overflying Israel
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
The number of aircraft carriers of the French is limited and there is no military airport in South Lebanon.
---
Is Lebanon too big to operate an aircraft from Beruit then?

There is NOT enough space for the operation in question. The only solution would be, and in a longer term WILL be to extend the airport into the sea, but nobody at present will be ready to provide the finance for that. The suburb to the West of the Airport, Khaldeh is in urgent need of an "upgrade", and would have at least one very nice but incredibly dilapidated beach. So that it in fact might really make sense. OK, get forward with your fortune and invest in a project for that ! The repaired motorway towards Sa'ida will become renamed after you, I am sure.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
n post 30, you slandered General Pellegrini as "moronic"
--
Yes, the French commander. Not, "the French."

a very good general, not a moron. By the way you put it you clearly slandered THE French as morons
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
Why doesn't the UN commander want Israel to know what is going on so much that they will shoot down snooping recon planes?

The Israelis KNOW what is going on WITHOUT their overflyings, as simple as that. Your "justification" is just smokescreen. They had detailed information about everything which they got ON THE GROUND. And Lebanon is an open country. Go to Beirut, hire a car, and drive around. You really can drive to everywhere all around. Go to Cairo, and compare. It is not only that the Beirutis celebrate a really civilized driving style ..........
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
re-igniting a shooting war

you exaggerate things, and distort realities a bit. Nobody is eager to "re-ignite a shooting war" BUT the ways of the Israelis canNOT be tolerated endlessly. Their overflyings, and I particularily refer to the F-15, have to be STOPPED. By tolerating the ISraeli undoings, the UN up to now has shown itself to be simply a tool in the hands of the Israelis.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
school military education

you mean that kind of "school military education" which is the basis of the tremendous successes and victories of your country in Iraq ?  sarcastic  scratchchin  wave 
-
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 45):
By the way you put it you clearly slandered THE French as morons

Let's all read it again for posterity.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
You may have missed the differacne in being supportive of the French, and being supportive of a moronic French commander who treads dangerously close to opening another shooting war in the region by threatening to pop off missiles.

Now, are you a ban worthy troll or are you going to admit I said nothing ill about the French and singled out a single person for my comments?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 45):
You really can drive to everywhere all around.

You really think an Israeli can fly into Beirut, rent a car, then drive into the UN command complex?

YOU... REALLY... THINK.. THAT???

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 45):
Their overflyings, and I particularily refer to the F-15

Did Israel purchase mud hens then?

Oh wait, you have no clue about military hardware. Never mind.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
baroque
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RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:51 am

That is very strange, I cannot find the original reference from MDorBust to the French commander, can anyone help with a copy? Either my browser is not working very well or it has been edited out.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
You really think an Israeli can fly into Beirut, rent a car, then drive into the UN command complex?

by using his US or British or French or Swiss or Italian passport, SURE.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
mud hens ....no clue about military hardware

ehmmmm......, oh just found it. Here your "upgraded King Air" ! :

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin Whitehead – Jetwash Images

 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: French UN Troops Prepare Guns Against Israeli Jets

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):

Reply #4

Quote:
by using his US or British or French or Swiss or Italian passport, SURE.

Uh, no.

Simply showing a passport won't get you into a military complex.

Yet again, your shinning knowlege of the military doesn't shine through.


Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 48):
ehmmmm......, oh just found it. Here your "upgraded King Air" ! :

No, that is an F-15.

This is a modified King Air
RC-12

http://www.tamu.edu/easterwoodairport/images/milimages/rc12.jpg

[Edited 2006-11-19 18:11:55]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen

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