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skyservice_330
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Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:26 pm

Well, definately an interesting day in Ottawa:

_______
Quebecers form a nation within Canada: PM
'Do the Québécois form an independent nation? The answer is no,' Harper adds

Last Updated: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 | 3:25 PM ET
CBC News

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has waded into the controversial issue of Quebec nationhood, saying he will introduce a motion recognizing that Quebecers form a nation "within a united Canada."

More at: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/22/harper-quebec.html
_______

With the Liberal party set to deal with a similar issue at their next convention, the Bloc still strong in Quebec, and a PQ party in Quebec that has the possibility to win the next provincial election, is Canada flirting on the edge of falling into another unity debate?

Thoughts?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:32 pm

This is what? Something like the 17th time they've tried this?

Mark
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:41 pm

As far as I understand the issue, it could quell the separation movement somewhat because it does recognize that they are a nation within Canada itself. However, from what I've read about the issue it doesn't give Quebec any more powers within Canada federally, or change the way things are now. But I've only read a few articles on the issue, so I could well be mistaken.
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iamcanadian
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:49 pm

I think it's redundant to recognize Quebec as a "nation within Canada". How is that any different than being a province? Will they have their own laws? No; they'll still be a nation "within Canada". They're throwing around the word "sovereignty" when in reality, this is nothing but an attempt to create the illusion that the Liberals want to appease the Bloc.
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yooyoo
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:56 am

Hmm.... let us see after the next budget and closely followed election next year if this move has given Harper some votes in Quebec and possibly taken away votes from other parts of Canada.
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:58 am

Time to get Harper's balls on the side of a milk carton I think. (As in "Missing")
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skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 5):
Time to get Harper's balls on the side of a milk carton I think. (As in "Missing")

Well put, however, I think the Liberals and NDP are lacking..err.. balls too. All three so-called federalist parties sold out every federalist in Canada- everyone person who believes in a strong Canada as one country, one nation. This country was formed by two different groups to form ONE country and ONE nation, whether French or English. It will be interesting to see where this goes. Shame on them all.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
from what I've read about the issue it doesn't give Quebec any more powers within Canada federally, or change the way things are now.

The motion itself doesn't, however, it is hard to predict what this will mean in the future. The fear among many is that it is something that can be used against the federal government to get special powers for Quebec, at the exclusion of the other provinces. Essentially, it is feared this will set into motion a slippery slope that will only lead to more problems.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:08 am

I'm a federalist, in that I want Quebec to stay a part of Canada because I'd feel bad for Newfoundland, New Brunswick, PEI and Nova Scotia if Quebec left, because then they'd be separated from the rest of Canada. Beyond that, I don't particularly care.

However, if Quebec ever separated from the rest of Canada I would hope that they would not be allowed to use the currency, travel across the border without passports and that they get treated just like people coming up from the States would. If they want to go out on their own, fine, but you're literally on your own, no help.
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skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I'm a federalist

 thumbsup  Me too.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I want Quebec to stay a part of Canada because I'd feel bad for Newfoundland, New Brunswick, PEI and Nova Scotia if Quebec left, because then they'd be separated from the rest of Canada.

I agree with you. It would isolate the East and I think ultimately be the beginning of the end. The East would start wanting more autonomy, and the West would as well.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
if Quebec ever separated from the rest of Canada I would hope that they would not be allowed to use the currency, travel across the border without passports and that they get treated just like people coming up from the States would. If they want to go out on their own, fine, but you're literally on your own, no help.

What you are referring to is sovereignty-association. Many in Quebec favor this model over all out seperation, however, many in the ROC (rest of Canada) are adamently against it. The idea of, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You're either in or you are out.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
The idea of, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You're either in or you are out.

Exactly. They can deal with their own security, military, infrastructure, currency, political system and all the rest. Even though I'm sure that they'd model it similar to the system we have now, they can figure all that out themselves, no help from the rest of Canada.

I think it would be quite a tough go, Air Canada would pull out, and I'm sure many companies would follow suit, leaving many jobless. Just the logistics of the whole thing would be mind blowing.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
I agree with you. It would isolate the East and I think ultimately be the beginning of the end. The East would start wanting more autonomy, and the West would as well.

If they did separate I think one of two things would happen, they would either fail miserably, or beg to be let back in. If it's the latter, I'd sit there and let them sweat it out for a while before we let them back in.
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skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 10):
I think it would be quite a tough go, Air Canada would pull out, and I'm sure many companies would follow suit, leaving many jobless. Just the logistics of the whole thing would be mind blowing.

Agreed. I remember reading a study a few years back and they researched the economic costs of Quebec seperating if they seperated at the time of the study. I think it was done by the C.D. Howe Institute. I don't recall it being very good economically and it would cost the province heavily. For instance, the Government of CANADA owns infrastructure and a host of other things in the province that essentially Quebec would have to buy from them, which would come with a hefty price tag.

I remember seeing a documentary that followed different people the night of the 1995 Referendum. One of the people they followed was an investment guy on Bay St. who was at work as the results came in talking with investors and trying to keep them at ease. He let out a big sigh when it came out in favor of the 'yes' side. One of the biggest consequences (which the government feared at the time) was that if the results came back in favor of the separatists that investors would start pulling out of Canada, consequently hurting the Canadian economy.
 
MattRB
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:07 am

 banghead  FFS. Not this BS again. Smoke and mirrors from the federal government. Without any powers being associated, this is just a feel-good measure - designed solely to take the wind out of the sails of both the BQ and the Liberals on this issue and try to shore up some of the Conservatives flagging support in Quebec.

Unfortunately it's going to backfire and just inflame the situation more.

I'd love it if the federal government would have the balls to tell Quebec that if they wanted to seperate that to do so would require x and finally set out some clear, concise and concrete requirements that would have to be met if they want to break up my country.

As to PM Harper and his party: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?
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skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 12):
I'd love it if the federal government would have the balls to tell Quebec that if they wanted to seperate that to do so would require x and finally set out some clear, concise and concrete requirements that would have to be met if they want to break up my country.

The Clarity Act, however, it isn't clear and concise on some things.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 12):
As to PM Harper and his party: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?

Probably thinking "Given our stances on Kyoto and Afghanistan and how Quebecers don't like them, I gotta do something to get some votes back and boost our prospects in the province."
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:23 pm

Am I correct in thinking that if Quebec went it's own way it would be geographically much smaller? Isn't something like 2/3rds of PQ made up of Native Indian lands whom have no desire to separate at all?

When this issue came up in the early 90's the Separatists were, amongst other things, making it clear that they intended to keep the Canadian $. There seemed to be a lot of effort made by English speaking Canadians to make Quebec feel wanted at the time with such items as the "My Canada includes Quebec" bumper stickers (or the Alberta version: My debtload includes Quebec! but that's another issue....)

Quebec, with the obvious exception of the independence referenda, has a history of seeing this differently.

Results of the National Referendum on Prohibition (September 29, 1898)

Alberta and Saskatchewan
YES: 68.8 / NO: 31.2
British Columbia
YES: 54.6 / NO:45.4
Manitoba
YES: 80.6 / NO:19.4
New Brunswick
YES: 72.2 / NO: 27.7
Nova Scotia
YES: 87.2 / NO: 12.8
Ontario
YES: 57.3 / NO: 42.7
Prince Edward Island
YES: 89.2 / NO: 10.8
Quebec
YES:18.8 / NO:81.2

Canada
YES: 51.2 / NO: 48.8

Results of the 1942 National Plebiscite on Conscription (April 27, 1942)

Alberta
YES: 71.1 / NO: 28.9
British Columbia
YES: 80.4 / NO: 19.6
Manitoba
YES: 80.3 / NO: 19.7
New Brunswick
YES: 69.8 / NO: 30.2
Nova Scotia
YES: 77.1 / NO: 22.1
Ontario
YES: 84.0 / NO: 16.0
Prince Edward Island
YES: 82.9 / NO: 17.1
Quebec
YES: 27.9 / NO: 72.1
Saskatchewan
YES: 73.1 / NO: 26.9
Yukon
YES: 74.4 / NO: 25.6


Are there any seperatist French Canadian a.netters out there who'd like to explain things from their side?
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yyz717
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:46 am

Stephen Harper has shown strong leadership by recognizing the Quebecois as a nation. That's what leadership is all about: taking a stand.

Meanwhile, the feckless Liberal party continues to dither.......
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
Stephen Harper has shown strong leadership by recognizing the Quebecois as a nation. That's what leadership is all about: taking a stand.

I agree totally. I like what Harper has done, I love how he takes a stand on an issue and just leaves it at that, there's no debating where he stands, he says his stance, and if people don't like it they won't vote for him again. I supported his comments, I doubt that the sovereignty issue will be solved in the near future, but at least he's made it clear that Quebec will have a tough time leaving while he's around.
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skyservice_330
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:26 am

Just an update to the story:

____
Tory cabinet minister quits post over Québécois motion
Last Updated: Monday, November 27, 2006 | 3:27 PM ET
The Canadian Press

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's motion recognizing the Québécois as a nation within Canada has cost him a cabinet minister.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/chong-quit-061127.html
____

More to come...
 
A332
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:59 am

Ugh... can of worms...

Now some of my "dimwitted" Alberta brethren are like.. "hey, are we not a nation within Canada too?"

Let's all just agree to be one thing... Canadians... forget all the rest of this nonsense... and hey, if you don't want to stay, there's the door!
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travelin man
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:22 am

Does this mean Quebec will field its own Olympic team? And have its own ambassadors?

"Nation within a nation" sounds ridiculous to me....

(or maybe it is like Holland within the Netherlands????)
 
Falcon84
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:29 am

Happens every time someone mentions Charles DeGaulle, which is what probably set this off.  Yeah sure
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cedarjet
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:07 am

Oh jeez. The Quebecois seperatists are truly idiots. They want to be different, they want to be special. Ecoutez moi, s'il vous plait. There are half a billion people living between Montreal and Mexico City and none of them give a shit about you. Your right to speak French and be different and special is enshrined in the Canadian system.

Cut loose from that and within a generation there'll be as much French spoken in Montreal as in New Orleans. It'll be "beacoup de drinks" and "let the bontemps roulee" and that's it. Most of Quebec's trade is with the Yanks, especially power, and no-one in Washington DC or Albany could give a rats arse about learning French or respecting the sovereign rights of a shakey new republic of 8m people.

Les Quebecois are notoriously anti war and especially concerning the current imbroglio in Afganistan, and think this reflects that they have different values than Red State Canada (MB, AB) - which is true. But an independent Quebec would probably find itself in much worse foreign relations debacles than having a few Albertans and Manitobans being used as target practise by some Afgan shepherds, because instead of being part of big and mineral-rich Canada, they'll be a much colder version of Panama or Guatemala. The day after the big independence parade, a dude from the World Bank or the IMF will turn up at the treasurer's office and lend them $500 billion, call in the loan as soon as Quebec has spent it, Quebec does what Washington says. Bye bye Francophone Utopia, hello banana republic slavery. Quebec says, "Viva l'independence!" Washington says, "Dinner is served."

(This "nation within a nation" crap proves - as though proof were needed - that Harper is an idiot as well for entertaining such a nonsense. Canadians - including Les Quebecois - are far and away the most awesome people on the planet and yet they've found one right wing straight guy who's the only person north of the 49th Parallel who thinks GW Bush is part of the solution, and made him PRIME MINISTER!! WTF?!)
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
It would isolate the East and I think ultimately be the beginning of the end. The East would start wanting more autonomy, and the West would as well.

I don't think so. They would miss the federal tax money coming mostly from Ontario and now from third world Alberta.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 10):
Air Canada would pull out, and I'm sure many companies would follow suit,

They actually did in the 90's, despite the fact that Quebec remained a part of the confederation.
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iamcanadian
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
third world Alberta

What part of Alberta is "third world"?
Shut up and calculate.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 23):

What part of Alberta is "third world"?

The whole economy as is. It's happy and booming now because of high crude oil prices. Just dig it up and sell it. No value added (I know,it's not entirely true,but close enough). This is what I mean by third world. Or is there any high-tech product developed in Alberta and known in whole world?
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A346Dude
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
With the Liberal party set to deal with a similar issue at their next convention, the Bloc still strong in Quebec, and a PQ party in Quebec that has the possibility to win the next provincial election, is Canada flirting on the edge of falling into another unity debate?

Thoughts?

Maybe.

Originally, I thought this was an OK idea, but I'm not so sure anymore. It is a slippery slope - if Quebec is a nation, why not aboriginals? If aboriginals are, why not Newfoundland? Next thing you know, we could end up with a whole bunch of nations - with nothing actually being accomplished, other than sowing seeds of divisiveness in Quebec and across the country.

Then again, there is no denying that Quebec is different from the rest of Canada. If this acknowledgement, however meaningless in the legal sense, is enough to discourage outright separation, then perhaps it is not a bad thing.

So, basically, I don't know. I could see it going either way.
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jamincan
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:02 pm

I dunno, I'm hesitant because this stirs the whole sovereignty pot up, but I find the move a lot less threatening than most seem to. We already view the aboriginals in Canada as nations within Canada (First Nations, Anishinabe Nation &c), even if it isn't enshrined within the constitution (one of the victims of the failure of Meech lake). Fundamentally I think that Stephen Harper is right, the Quebecois are a distinct culture within Canada, and I don't think it's completely wrong to refer to them as a nation. In that same sense, I think Acadians and Newfoundlanders would also qualify for that distinction.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if Quebecers decide that they want to be independent, then I fully support them in that, and would advocate sovereignty-association. I think that such an arrangement would be not only better for Quebec, but also for Canada as a whole. Like it or not, Canada's history is also Quebec's history, and if things have to change, I'd rather maintain very close ties then to send a collective 'Fuck You'.
 
Qb001
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 21):
The Quebecois seperatists are truly idiots.

Cedarjet may be a first class member, but this statement demonstrates that he is also a first class (expletive). The rest of his post is crap as well. Cedarjet, don't talk about things you don't know; this issue is obviously way too complicated for you.

Here's a letter I wanted to send to the Toronto Star.

Refusal to recognize Quebecois is fuelling separatist movement

I sincerely, and I mean sincerely, believe that the Star editorial “Harper’s divisive Quebec gambit” reached a new high – some would say a new low – in exposing a total ignorance of the political dynamic of Quebec. It is so not pleasing to read.

The editorial point of view is to hypothesize that recognizing “Quebecois” as a nation would fuel the separatist movement. The separatists would then for sure use this argument the “next time” to boost their agenda. This rhetoric possesses the virtue of avoiding asking some more relevant, if not painful, questions. For example, would it not be more appropriate to ask why there is going to be a “next time”? Or, what is Canada doing to make sure that there is not going to be a “next time”? Oh and please, please, stay away from the righteous, angelic and prefabricated answers such as “Quebeckers want a healthy economy, pay less taxes, raise their children in peace and harmony” and the rest of those convenient yet issue-avoiding shenanigans.

Maybe I can forgive the Star editorial to be oblivious to Quebec’s current reality, but I cannot forgive it to be so ignorant of Quebec’s recent history. And Quebec’s recent history clearly shows that when given the chance and opportunity to assert their identity, Quebeckers expand a comfort zone that allow them to feel somewhat reassured that they can live within Canada while maintaining their identity. Point in case: Bill 101.

Conversely, when denied such a comfort zone within Canada, Quebeckers react in creating that zone by themselves. Point in case: the rejection of the Meech Lake Accord, which led to the 1995 referendum. You know what the result of that referendum was. Do you?

Then, somewhat comically, the editorial goes on to portray the “party of Pierre Trudeau” as the one which strongly promoted Quebec’s interests in Ottawa. Considering the virtual disappearance of Pierre Trudeau’s party from Quebec’s political radar screen (6% of the vote in yesterday’s by-election in a Quebec riding, behind the NDP), one has to wonder if it is Quebeckers who collectively did not get that memo, or if that statement if flat wrong. I suggest the latter to be a better clue in understanding Quebec’s current political dynamic than the former.

The editorial does not shy away from blaming Harper and Ignatieff for launching this debate. I, for one, would have like to read instead why is this debate still raging. In the November 24th Star edition, a political scientist at the University of Toronto claims that this melodrama is manufactured by politicians. The myth of WMD in Iraq was manufactured by politicians; the 1982 Constitution that failed to include Quebec and the 1995 referendum’s results were real. Mister political scientist, your paper deserves an “F”.

One has to wonder also why so many in the ROC resist recognizing “Quebecois” as a nation. Quebeckers feel they form a nation. One may disagree with that, pretty much like one is also free to disagree that the Earth is round: this is the kind of disagreement that will not change the reality.

So Canada can go on hiding its head in the sand. Quebeckers will get that memo. Unless Quebeckers get a formal constitutional recognition that they do form a nation, I strongly suggest that you don’t bet your house that the “next time”, to reuse the Star’s editorial own words, Quebeckers will vote to stay in Canada.
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Dougloid
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:13 am

Sheesh...what on earth do folks in Canada want to deconstruct their country for? I'm with Cedarjet here. We'll get our bleacher seats on the line and watch youse guys tear each other to shreds.

Seriously now. Economically it makes no sense. Politically....well, politically I can see how a lot of people in Canada could use this manufactured issue to promote their own agendas. As a practical matter most folks could care less about it anyway, want to go about their business, but they keep getting dragged into this mess by the politicians and the vocal minority of agitators who keep this thing going. You ought to throw the bums out of office.

Validating and legitimating sectionalism is a fool's game, no matter what the short term political goal is. We learned that....You only perpetuate it and delay the day of reckoning by this sort of nonsense.

I mean, it never ends does it? You can fool around all you want, tinker with with bilingual this and multicultural that, paint the fleur de lis all over everything but at the end of the day it's an English speaking common law country. It hasn't had jack to do with France in a long time....kinda like the Boston Irish suddenly being recognized as a nation, close the borders, send out the diplomatic corps and everyone live on spuds forevermore.

When are you going to take these folks to the woodshed and whip some sense into them?

Quoting QB001 (Reply 27):
Here's a letter I wanted to send to the Toronto Star.

Did you send it? Did they print it?

 stirthepot   stirthepot   stirthepot   stirthepot   stirthepot 
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cedarjet
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
I mean, it never ends does it? You can fool around all you want, tinker with with bilingual this and multicultural that, paint the fleur de lis all over everything but at the end of the day it's an English speaking common law country.

Incredibly true. The French (the real ones who live in France) HATE Les Quebecois, my francophone friends from Montreal refuse to speak French when they go to Paris on business, they're sick of being treated like shit! Which came as a surprise but it seems to be generally the case anecdotally that France isn't that fussed about the place.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
As a practical matter most folks could care less about it anyway, want to go about their business, but they keep getting dragged into this mess by the politicians and the vocal minority of agitators who keep this thing going. You ought to throw the bums out of office.

Man I'm gonna get that tattooed somewhere, it is the ultimate truth about any issue that any government turns their hand to.
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RCS763AV
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:54 am

What is it with the Quebeqcois? They are nothing without Canada! Theyll try for a 100th time and won´t make it, they should just live in community and stop their stupid separatist idea. Its the same in spain with the Catalonians and the Vasques, get over it people!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 29):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
I mean, it never ends does it? You can fool around all you want, tinker with with bilingual this and multicultural that, paint the fleur de lis all over everything but at the end of the day it's an English speaking common law country.

Incredibly true. The French (the real ones who live in France) HATE Les Quebecois, my francophone friends from Montreal refuse to speak French when they go to Paris on business, they're sick of being treated like shit! Which came as a surprise but it seems to be generally the case anecdotally that France isn't that fussed about the place.

Just to clarify, I do not say this because I've got some anti French or Quebecois bias like a lot of my countrymen seem to-if they do have it, they're jerks.
Hell, we fly the tricolor here. Of all the damn flags in the world we could have used that's the one we chose, half the towns on the Big Muddy were settled by Frenchmen (Dubuque, Prairie du Chien, St. Louis, Davenport, Moline, etc etc etc) and we've got a bunch of French speakers living in the swamps and bayous of Louisiana-which was not named for an Englishman.
I've got cousins all over France because thats where my uncle's oldest settled back in the sixties....I merely say it because we've got sort of a modus vivendi thing going on here....we've learned through hard experience in the states that life's much more liveable if we bury the sectional differences.


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Qb001
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 29):
the French (the real ones who live in France) HATE Les Quebecois

That statement, coming from someone who definitely knows everything about Québec, Quebeckers, France and so on, is so true.

After all, there are only 100,000 French living in Québec (AF is to deploy one of its first A-380 to YUL; there are roughly 5 flights a day between YUL and CDG). And according to a 2005 poll, Canada (reads Quebec) is the country in the world French people loves the most.

Selon un sondage BVA 2005, le Canada est le pays préféré des Français. Pourquoi un tel engouement ? Il y a bien sûr des raisons historiques et linguistiques qui nous rattachent au Québec
http://info.france2.fr/encadres/21696886-fr.php

Gee, I wonder what it would be like if the French really liked us. Fortunately, thanks to Cedarjet, we now all have the hard facts: French hate us.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting QB001 (Reply 27):
The editorial does not shy away from blaming Harper and Ignatieff for launching this debate. I, for one, would have like to read instead why is this debate still raging.

Harper and Ignatieff did not start this debate. Gilles Deceppe did. GD announced his intent to submit a motion identifying Quebec as a nation. Harper merely trumped him by responding with his own motion.

The debate is still raging due to the BQ and Gilles Deceppe.

Meanwhile.....Ontario and Alberta continue to subsidize Quebec day in and day out.....This is the real issue. I'm sick of subsidizing the perenial "poor man" of Canada (aka Quebec) with my taxes, while Quebec whines about everything.
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 19):
Does this mean Quebec will field its own Olympic team?

Gilles already kicked this idea around before: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2005/12/01/elxn-quebec-hockey.html
Having lived in PQ in '95, The politicking going on then was better than anything on T.V. Back then they were promised the world. Use Canadian peso as currency, keep dual citizenship, they already have their own pension plan, CF-18's were flown out of C.F.B. Baggotville the day before, to avoid a ready made air force, oh and they would not be responsible for any of the national debt. Quebec separatists are not idiots, they are ill-informed and want to believe the idiot politico flavour of the month. If Gilles does not have success this time around, there is always some else in line for the job. If the cry-baby threatens to take his football home, don't give him a lollipop to stay, it will only encourage more crying later when he wants chewing gum. Case and point: during a conversation before the referendum: (S)eparatist mechanic: Eh, so how will you vote tomorrow? (F)ederalist mechanic (from ONT.): I think I'll go with yes. (S): (dumbfounded) Why? (F): Quebec separates, Air Canada will move to YYZ and I'll have my choice of jobs there. ...conversation #2: (F): why do you want to separate? (S): I am tired of paying taxes for other people, unemployed cod fishermen in NFLD...etc (F): who do you think is paying for this white elephant we work at (YMX), Expo'67 and the '76 Olympics? (S): (dumbfounded look #2)
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33):
Meanwhile.....Ontario and Alberta continue to subsidize Quebec day in and day out.....This is the real issue. I'm sick of subsidizing the perenial "poor man" of Canada (aka Quebec) with my taxes, while Quebec whines about everything.

Exactly...if they want to be a separate country it's time to start acting like one, take the good with the bad and all that right? Kind of like Uruguay on the St. Lawrence LOL.


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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 3):
Will they have their own laws?

A) a nation within a nation ? Is that the idea ?
B) their own laws ? I do NOT know your constitution, but what I can tell you is that cantons in Switzerland not only have their own parliaments and elected governments but of course also many cantonal laws, which complement the federal laws. Isn't that similar in Canada ?
C) Does the idea to have Quebec as a "nation" within the Canadian "nation" mean that also the other provinces will declare themselves as "nations" ? Possibly with different embassies and consulates abroad ?
 
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 3):
Will they have their own laws?

A) a nation within a nation ? Is that the idea ?
B) their own laws ? I do NOT know your constitution, but what I can tell you is that cantons in Switzerland not only have their own parliaments and elected governments but of course also many cantonal laws, which complement the federal laws. Isn't that similar in Canada ?
C) Does the idea to have Quebec as a "nation" within the Canadian "nation" mean that also the other provinces will declare themselves as "nations" ? Possibly with different embassies and consulates abroad ?

They already do.

http://www.canlii.org/qc/laws/index.html
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33):
The debate is still raging due to the BQ and Gilles Deceppe.

Chinese proverb: When a finger points at the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger. Gilles Duceppe is only the finger who points toward a tough issue. So stop being what you are and look at the real issue, not Gilles Duceppe.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
Exactly...if they want to be a separate country it's time to start acting like one, take the good with the bad and all that right?

Well, in the last referendum, 61% of the Francophones voted yes. It seems to me that those who want to remained "subsidized day in and day out" (to quote the guy who likes to look at fingers) are mostly the Anglophones, who voted no at 95%.

Therefore, the REAL issue is this: how to convinced those who voted YES that they can colletively be what they want to be. Recognizing Quebeckers a s a nation is a step in the good direction. But it'll have to go further than that. Some sort of formal recognition (with powers) will have to be entranched into the constitution.

Otherwise, if you disagree with that and would rather see Quebec go its own way, I suggest you try to convince those who voted no to vote yes the next time. You can start this process in english, because that's the language spoken by those who oppose the most to this move. As for francophones, there are probably 66% now who are in favor of Quebec's independance.
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RE: Is Canada Flirting With Another Unity Crisis?

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 21):
The Quebecois seperatists are truly idiots.

I would NOT jump to such extreme conclusions. There for the Quebecois are dozens of arguments PRO and AGAINST. The decision about whether to continue INSIDE Canada or separately is entirely their choice. And the language question needs to be looked at more carefully. If you check up the American continent, you can see that Haïti still is French speaking and Jamaica and Belize (surrounded by Spanish-speakers) still English speaking. And Quebec is economically much stronger than those two.
-

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 29):
my francophone friends from Montreal refuse to speak French when they go to Paris on business, they're sick of being treated like shit!

The Quebec dialect clearly is in the view of people in Paris a very strange Patois and therefore not exactly appreciated. I personally find it ugly. But to say that the French "hate" the Quebecois is much exaggerated. Your Quebecois friends have quite an easy possibility, they can try to learn "metropolitan French" and then things will look differently.
-

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
in spain with the Catalonians

this comparison does NOT hold water. Catalan and Castilian are two versions of "Spanish" even if the Castilians claim their version to be the TRUE one ! The Quebecois clearly regard themselves as French-speakers and of French culture.
-

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
They already do.
--
http://www.canlii.org/qc/laws/index.html

-
OK. Just as I assumed it to be. So that any expanding "nation-hood" in fact would mean full independence.
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