I’m going to hell for this, but my fate up there is probably already sealed, so here goes. I propose that religion has a detrimental effect on society, and that the human race as a whole would be better off without religion. Ill try and explain:

Number one: religion is the cause of so many wars, and conflicts, that they are simply uncountable. The Crusades were sanctioned by the papacy, and were originally Christians fighting against Muslims in order to recapture the holy lands. The Northern Ireland conflicts, with Protestants fighting against Catholics. The Palestine-Israel conflict, with Muslims against Jews. 9/11, which was committed by Islamic fundamentalists, as well as the 2005 London bombings. These are all “holy warriors” fighting in the name of their God or religion.

Two: religion restricts free thinking. It tries to offer a full answer to everything, therefore stifling curiosity, preventing actual progress. Galileo and Darwin were both attacked by the Church for suggesting the truth was other than the Church taught its followers to believe. The same is happening with stem cell research nowadays.

Three: racism. The Christian Identity movement, the KKK, Hezbollah, Kach, and more theologist’s than you might think, have all proposed that one particular race is closer to God, or a “chosen” race.

Four: homophobia. Most major world religions preach that homosexuality is immoral, and therefore religion promotes a fear/hatred/whatever of gay people. Yes?

Five: a fixation with the next world. Religions do have a minor tendency to fixate on either the end of the world, spirits, or a life after death. This can cause the current world to be comparatively ignored, which can cause feelings of indifference to disease, death, the environment, and so on. Take a look at the Human papillomavirus vaccines, designed to fight against particular STD’s. Religion has fought against the vaccine, which is going to benefit mankind, citing fears that it will encourage greater sexual promiscuity and move away from the abstinence approach to sexual health. That’s just plain irresponsible.

I cant remember any more right now, but I just want your opinion. And by the way, Im still sitting on the fence on this one, I don’t actually know what I think. Religion also has many good points, but I’m not in a good enough mood to do that.

| Gabe

Without religion, the poor would rise up and overthrow the rich. Isn't it ironic that the most religious nations are the poorest and the most secular nations are the wealthiest with a fair distribution of wealth.

Work hard 6 days a week, pray on Sunday and you'll be rewarded in heaven.  

Gabe, I'll join you on your way to hell. I agree with every point of what you said. Living in a Christian country (yeah yeah, separation of church and state...) we look at muslims as the devil. However, like you said, it's not like the Christians have been angels (every pun intended) in the past either.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Religion also has many good points, but I'm not in a good enough mood to do that.

Maybe it's not Religion that causes problems. The world's problems are probably caused by people not in a good mood about their own insecurities and simple ignorance. Insecurities and ignorance like your own.

This thread in nothing but an attempt at launching a flamebait thread. We have all seen and heard it before.

To me, organised religion is just another way for a few power-hungry old men to secure their influence over "the masses". Whether that's beneficial or not, I'll leave up to individual interpretation.

Faith and ethics are a different story.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1): Isn't it ironic that the most religious nations are the poorest and the most secular nations are the wealthiest with a fair distribution of wealth.

Most people in the U.S. consider themselves "religious". In Italy, many do not attend church often, yet they do consider themselves "religious". The U.S. and Italy are hardly poor so your argument has a few holes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1): Without religion, the poor would rise up and overthrow the rich. Isn't it ironic that the most religious nations are the poorest and the most secular nations are the wealthiest with a fair distribution of wealth.

Norway has a state church, with something like 98% of the population being members, yet it is also one of the richest nations in the world.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Ill try and explain:

Sounds like you have a lot of problems with Christianity. Perhaps care to rephrase the thread title to leave some of us other relgions out of the S**t storm?

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6): Norway has a state church, with something like 98% of the population being members, yet it is also one of the richest nations in the world.

When I think of bible thumpers or fundamentalist Islamics, the last place I think of is Norway or Italy.

Quoting 787 (Reply 5): Most people in the U.S. consider themselves "religious". In Italy, many do not attend church often, yet they do consider themselves "religious". The U.S. and Italy are hardly poor so your argument has a few holes.

No holes in my comments at all. If you look at the Bible belt here in the United States, it's the poorest part of the country.

[Edited 2006-12-29 19:29:12]

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8): No holes in my comments at all. If you look at the Bible belt here in the United States, it's the poorest part of the country.

Do you think that the lack of viable deep water ports in the bible belt may have helped to hinder those cities economic development?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9): Do you think that the lack of viable deep water ports in the bible belt may have helped to hinder those cities economic development?

That's not the case at all. There is no excuss for them to rank low in education. It's there Bible that is holding them back.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): That's not the case at all.

Yes, a massive keystone to economic development missing surely couldn't explain the lack of... economic development.   

The question was rhetorical BTW. Anyone with a basic understanding of the development of regional economics will understand the impact of a lack of a viable port.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): There is no excuss for them to rank low in education.

One might suggest that a lack of proper funding for education could explain low education rankings.

One might go further to suggest that a lack of economic development leads to a lack of proper funding for education.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): It's there Bible that is holding them back.

You know, sometimes the anti-religious people are just as off the wall as the religious people.

[Edited 2006-12-29 19:45:22]

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Number one: religion is the cause of so many wars, and conflicts, that they are simply uncountable

Wrong. What causes this is people Hijacking Religeon, eg Islam and these extremists, the ideas are hijacked and used for the wrong ways.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1): we look at muslims as the devil

And you need to ask yourself why we look at them like this??? it isnt to do with the religeon of Islam but more what they have made us think it is. i agree people feel insecure around muslims, my self included but there are reasons for this, but it isnt religeon

Thomson735:
WTF?!?!  
Why is my name quoted as saying that?
Those are Chachu201's words.

I think that there is a vast difference between religion and faith. Some of these so-called Christian 'religions' have belief systems that are so far removed from the basic tenets set out by what the Bible teaches us, it's ridiculous.
I say take religion out of the hands of the churches and put it back in the home where it belings.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11): One might go further to suggest that a lack of economic development leads to a lack of proper funding for education.

Actually these states get more federal dollars from Washington than what they send. So the money is there. How come many school boards down there are still conflicted with creationism, sex-ed and hell-bent on bringing back school prayer?

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): fight against particular STD’s

Now that is always a hotspot for me when someone attacks Christianity for it's stance on sexuality. What would happen if the entire world had always followed the Christian teaching of monogamy and no premarital sex? The world wouldn't be dealing with the AIDS pandemic and the widespread transmission of the other STD's. You also wouldn't have the problem of children being born out of wedlock, a statistic which you will find is tied to many socioeconomic indicators.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15): Actually these states get more federal dollars from Washington than what they send. So the money is there.

Generally speaking, if you make less than $20K a year, you're probably going to get more back from Washington than you pay in. Does that mean people making less than $20k a year have enough to pay for everything?

Same with states.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15): How come many school boards down there are still conflicted with creationism, sex-ed and hell-bent on bringing back school prayer?

I don't generally hear Kansas being refered to as a "down there" state.

Besides, school board politics are not a thing meant to be understood by mere mortals.

Both religion and politics have been used to achieve the same ends, that is the acquisition of POWER. To say that religion has caused many wars fails to mention when political ideology has caused many conflicts as well.

Whatever the cause of wars has been, there is only one real reason they have happened: POWER or the lack thereof. To single out religion as a root cause misses part of the reasons wars occur.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11): You know, sometimes the anti-religious people are just as off the wall as the religious people.

That one hits the mark. Some very religious individuals and anti-religious people share the same basic characteristics. Faith is not dependent on religion alone. Faith is a basic human characteristic that we all share. We all have faith in something, religious or not.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13): Thomson735: WTF?!?! Why is my name quoted as saying that? Those are Chachu201's words.

Actually they are my words   And it is not my personal opinion by the way, more of a generalized stereotype

Quoting Monorail (Reply 16): Now that is always a hotspot for me when someone attacks Christianity for it's stance on sexuality. What would happen if the entire world had always followed the Christian teaching of monogamy and no premarital sex? The world wouldn't be dealing with the AIDS pandemic and the widespread transmission of the other STD's. You also wouldn't have the problem of children being born out of wedlock, a statistic which you will find is tied to many socioeconomic indicators.

  

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 14): I think that there is a vast difference between religion and faith. Some of these so-called Christian 'religions' have belief systems that are so far removed from the basic tenets set out by what the Bible teaches us, it's ridiculous. I say take religion out of the hands of the churches and put it back in the home where it belings.

Good point. The religion has been misused for centuries by people for power and other motives.

Religion should be very personal and must not be misused. The problem with religion is that it is being misused by people in power and is becoming more politicised.

Personally, I feel Religion should be used for promoting peace, love and brotherhood. Any violence in the name of religion defeats its purpose.

[Edited 2006-12-29 20:38:39]

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2): Living in a Christian country (yeah yeah, separation of church and state...) we look at muslims as the devil.

We do?

Quoting 787 (Reply 3): This thread in nothing but an attempt at launching a flamebait thread. We have all seen and heard it before.

Started by a "customer service" agent, fanned by another "customer service" agent.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6): Norway has a state church, with something like 98% of the population being members, yet it is also one of the richest nations in the world.

Spell it with me, N-O-R-T-H S-E-A O-I-L. That's a good chap.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9): Do you think that the lack of viable deep water ports in the bible belt may have helped to hinder those cities economic development?

New Orleans isn't in the Bible Belt?

Didn't I see a similar thread (or threads) before?   

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 22): Didn't I see a similar thread (or threads) before?

Only about every other week.

My one and only contribution to this thread. There has been/is a lot of harm done in the name of religion, or by politicians using religion to an end (AndesSMF said it well), but at the same time, it has to be recognized that religion was one of the significant factors that organized early man and allowed society to develop. Over the course of history, I don't know if the good outweighs the bad, but its a fact that without the unifying force of the Church during the dark ages, much of what little of early history and knowledge that was retained during that period, would have been lost.

My gut feel, organized religion has served its purpose, and needs to evolve into something else. Faith will always be in existence, and religion needs to focus on that.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 23): Faith will always be in existence, and religion needs to focus on that.

But faith is something that is not exclusive to religion, that is why you have some issues that are handled with the same fervor as religion. Witness (pro and con) the environment movement, conservatism vs. liberalism, abortion, socialism vs. capitalism, etc.

All these movements deal with some issues that are faith based, that is to say that they have no complete real proof of existence. As example, some believe that the evidence presented in global warming theories indicate that it will happen. But there is no actual proof that it will, therefore there is some faith involved, and it has to do with your beliefs about the subject.

All I am trying to imply is that we have a lot of people (see thread for evidence) who claim they are anti-(organized) religion and intensely dislike the far right 'nuts', when they are showing the same characteristics but on the other side of the 'nuts'.

We all have to recognize who we are, regardless of whether we like it or not, to be able to move on, learn and deal with our human nature. For example, you can here all sorts of people decry materialism, but given the opportunity, most of us would behave the same way as the 'materialistic' people we complain about.

I like my stuff, and I will always enjoy having very nice toys for myself. I know I am materilialistic in some ways. I recognize that. And you know what. It has gotten to the point that now I don't have to have the latest and greatest, now I have the self control to wait for something I really want or recognize when I have to much of anything.

I can also behave like a zealot about many subjects. Now that I recognize that, I can look into myself and try to see if my POV has any real logic behind it, or maybe other people can shed some logic that can make me see a subject in a completely different light.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Religion: Bad For Society?

Pure religion may be good,but when mixed with politic it brings chaos

Alex!!!

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): religion has a detrimental effect on society

The ONLY reason you are slightly wrong are those churches that are VERY active in the community. Churches that are out there helping are good, but maybe we ought to find a way to get people together to do good for something other then under the guise of going to 'heaven'

I don't think religion per se is bad. In fact, I think it is a beautiful thing the way people seem to have faith in a spiritual being such as God or, for devout Christians, the belief in Jesus. I do not consider myself terribly religious but I do have a sense of spirituality that does not seem to fit into a specific organized religion.

It is bad when people twist religion for their own agenda (as in anti-homosexuality) or in claiming "sacred" lands.

As for why poorer nations or areas seem highly religious: it makes total sense to me that this happens. When you have nothing, sometimes all you have is blind faith that things can or will get better. Rich people have money to work through certain problems. The poor don't have anything so it is easy to turn to religion and the concept that God will look after them.

but which religion is right ay?! they can't ALL be right!....








 

Quoting 787 (Reply 3): This thread in nothing but an attempt at launching a flamebait thread. We have all seen and heard it before.

Hold on there. Let me just start by saying that I in no way was trying to flamebait. That would be stupid.

Quoting 787 (Reply 3): Maybe it's not Religion that causes problems.

So you're saying that 9/11 wasn't religiously motivated?

Quoting 787 (Reply 3): The world's problems are probably caused by people not in a good mood about their own insecurities and simple ignorance. Insecurities and ignorance like your own.

Yes, I may be ignorant and insecure. Help me by arguing against me.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7): Sounds like you have a lot of problems with Christianity. Perhaps care to rephrase the thread title to leave some of us other relgions out of the S**t storm?

Lets just set the record straight. I have no problem with Christianity, or with most religions for that matter. In the thread I was merely putting forward arguments that religion is detrimental for society. By the way, I am a Christian. I go to church. That doesn't stop me from questioning my religion, does it?

Quoting Thomson735 (Reply 12): Wrong. What causes this is people Hijacking Religeon, eg Islam and these extremists, the ideas are hijacked and used for the wrong ways.

The crusades were officially sanctioned by the pope. Thousands died. Your saying the Pope is a religious extremist?

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 20): Personally, I feel Religion should be used for promoting peace, love and brotherhood. Any violence in the name of religion defeats its purpose.

Sorry to any Muslims out there, but look at the Koran. There's some pretty violent stuff in there.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21): Started by a "customer service" agent, fanned by another "customer service" agent.

Yes. This is a conspiracy to take over Airliners.net via the customer support team, then the internet, and finally the whole world. Actually, no. Just because I'm a support crew member doesnt mean that myself or another team member can put forward ideas. My job is to help you with technical stuff on the site. Email me ([email protected]) or the team ([email protected]) and I can guarantee we'll help.

Whilst I'm here, I might as well say something. The ideas I put forward in my first post are only thoughts. Look at my last paragraph:

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): And by the way, Im still sitting on the fence on this one, I don’t actually know what I think. Religion also has many good points, but I’m not in a good enough mood to do that.

RELIGION ALSO HAS MANY GOOD POINTS  

| Gabe

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Number one: religion is the cause of so many wars, and conflicts, that they are simply uncountable

  

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Two: religion restricts free thinking. It tries to offer a full answer to everything, therefore stifling curiosity, preventing actual progress.

  

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Three: racism.

  

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Four: homophobia.

  

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Five: a fixation with the next world. Religions do have a minor tendency to fixate on either the end of the world, spirits, or a life after death. This can cause the current world to be comparatively ignored

  

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): There is no excuss for them to rank low in education.

  

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 27): It is bad when people twist religion for their own agenda (as in anti-homosexuality) or in claiming "sacred" lands.

  

Religion on a personal level can be wonderful, but once mixed with politics and what have you it just creates a mess. And organized religion seems to have a habit of mixing with politics quite frequently.



CanadianNorth

Quoting Monorail (Reply 16): Now that is always a hotspot for me when someone attacks Christianity for it's stance on sexuality. What would happen if the entire world had always followed the Christian teaching of monogamy and no premarital sex? The world wouldn't be dealing with the AIDS pandemic and the widespread transmission of the other STD's. You also wouldn't have the problem of children being born out of wedlock, a statistic which you will find is tied to many socioeconomic indicators.

I think I see your point (correct me if I don't). What you seem to be saying is that, since everything didn't go swimmingly well because we DIDN'T follow these teachings, we should now do nothing about it?

Granted, it's better to avoid a problem before it becomes apparent, but to do nothing about it after it rears its head is pretty ignorant.

Please correct me if I misinterpreted.

~Vik

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 31): I think I see your point (correct me if I don't). What you seem to be saying is that, since everything didn't go swimmingly well because we DIDN'T follow these teachings, we should now do nothing about it? Granted, it's better to avoid a problem before it becomes apparent, but to do nothing about it after it rears its head is pretty ignorant.

Exactly! That is what I mean. We need to deal with the present, the situation that we have NOW and DEAL WITH IT instead of wistfully thinking of what would have happened in an ideal world.

| Gabe

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Religion: Bad For Society?

Duh, ofcourse it does. Look at how much of today's global chaos has a direct link to religion..

Quoting Brettbrett21 (Reply 28): but which religion is right ay?! they can't ALL be right!..

South Park answers that for us. It was the MORMONS.

Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 29): Yes. This is a conspiracy to take over Airliners.net via the customer support team, then the internet, and finally the whole world.

I knew it!  

Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 29): Just because I'm a support crew member doesnt mean that myself or another team member can put forward ideas.

It should be obvious that a tired old topic that has been hashed out time and again on these boards doesn't need to be started all over again by a "crew member", however that's my personal opinion, and I'm entitled to speak it.

Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 29): Email me ([email protected]) or the team ([email protected]) and I can guarantee we'll help.

I haven't the slightest clue who you are!

lol. South Park also had an episode about the entire world being athiest.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35): It should be obvious that a tired old topic that has been hashed out time and again on these boards

Well, I cant find any similar topics, perhaps you would be able to link one?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35): I haven't the slightest clue who you are!

If I told you that, I'd have to kill you...

Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 37): Well, I cant find any similar topics, perhaps you would be able to link one?

Oh man, that's like a psychic asking me my name. The search function is a wonderful tool, and I'm sure if you're qualified to be in the position you're in, you don't need outside help to navigate it for a successful result, correct?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38): Oh man, that's like a psychic asking me my name. The search function is a wonderful tool, and I'm sure if you're qualified to be in the position you're in, you don't need outside help to navigate it for a successful result, correct?

Yes, I have used the search function, and I cant see anything similar to what I have posted. Perhaps its just too late at night. Anyway AeroWesty, I dont really see what this has got to do with the argument itself. Got an opinion? If you have, please do post as I'm dying for a proper bitch about it  

| Gabe

[Edited 2006-12-30 03:23:22]

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Number one: religion is the cause of so many wars, and conflicts, that they are simply uncountable. The Crusades were sanctioned by the papacy, and were originally Christians fighting against Muslims in order to recapture the holy lands. The Northern Ireland conflicts, with Protestants fighting against Catholics. The Palestine-Israel conflict, with Muslims against Jews. 9/11, which was committed by Islamic fundamentalists, as well as the 2005 London bombings. These are all “holy warriors” fighting in the name of their God or religion.

This is the biggest and one of the most dangerous misconceptions out there. Oversimplifying everything and using it to make religion bad is never a good thing. All of the examples you used have much more to them than just "you don't believe in my God so i'll blow the shit out of you". The Northern Ireland conflict, for example, never started as a religious war; that was only a result of the conflict. The main causes for that are colonization and nationalists wanting to reunite Northern Ireland - religion was only used in the conflict, it is not the reason for it. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict also has nothing to do with religion, it is all about land and the occupation - again, religion is an offshoot of the conflict, with people embracing extremism due to their circumstances. Even 9/11 has more to it than just religion; it would have never happened had it not been for US interference in the Middle East, what it has caused there, and them pissing off Al Qaeda by supporting them when they needed them and then turning around and starting to claim they are terrorists.

There are many different factors that shape conflicts, and to look at just one factor is very narrow minded.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Two: religion restricts free thinking. It tries to offer a full answer to everything, therefore stifling curiosity, preventing actual progress. Galileo and Darwin were both attacked by the Church for suggesting the truth was other than the Church taught its followers to believe. The same is happening with stem cell research nowadays.

Religion does not restrict free thinking - you can choose whether to believe in God or not. If you do embrace religion, why is it bad? I personally am not very religious, but the way I see it religion is something you choose whether to believe in or not, and it does not necessarily define your stance on every issue out there.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Three: racism. The Christian Identity movement, the KKK, Hezbollah, Kach, and more theologist’s than you might think, have all proposed that one particular race is closer to God, or a “chosen” race.

That is bullshit - Hitler was fairly secular and look at what he did. There are extremists in every religion, that does not mean they suddenly represent everyone.

Quoting Chachu201 (Thread starter): Four: homophobia. Most major world religions preach that homosexuality is immoral, and therefore religion promotes a fear/hatred/whatever of gay people. Yes?

Again, it is a personal issue - it is up to me to decide whether or not I believe in homosexuality and whether it is right or wrong. While I personally don't agree with the gay lifestyle, I believe everyone out there is free to choose whatever they want despite me being a Muslim. And plus, homophobia is hardly restricted to religion - I bet you can find plenty of atheist/antagonist homophobes.

Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 39): please do post as I'm dying for a proper bitch about it

I rest my case.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 20): The religion has been misused for centuries by people for power and other motives.

That's still the case. I know a president that said he was going in crusades against evil not that long ago.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 20): Religion should be very personal and must not be misused.

   Tell that to the Mormons that are always trying to put me in their "box".

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 20): Personally, I feel Religion should be used for promoting peace, love and brotherhood.

Can't we do it without religion ? Simply as human beings, neighbours living on a tiny grain of sand somewhere in the far flung suburb of the cosmos ?

[Edited 2006-12-30 03:51:37]

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 42): Can't we do it without religion ?

But I just don't know. Religion lays down a set of core ethics for us, and when people choose to belong to that religion, they tend to go by those values that the religion sets down. Most of the time, these values are good. Just look at some of the very religious countries in the world, and you will see very little crime and misdemeanour.

| Gabe