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connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 152):
How does this line of thinking work, the US is a democracy, and regardless of whether one voted for the current administration, reality is that the Govt. is representative of the wishes of the American people.

Incorrect. In a democracy, when you vote, you delegate your authority to speak to the person/party you vote for. Then you have the right to shut up and the government can do as they wish (at least until some legal entity pushes back).

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 151):
We are in Iraq because whether you believe it or not Saddam was a threat.

Exactly how, pray tell ? He had no ICBMs/IRBMs, no bombers. No nukes - and that's something I'm an expert in, since it's my line of work. No evidence of chemicals AFTER Gulf War I. Yes, he used chemicals on his own people PRIOR to GWI (which I think was justified) in the infamous Anfal campaign. But not after, since he was effectively disarmed at that point. What kept him in power after that was the Mukhabarat. Everyone feared them, no doubt.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 151):
The US lost how many people when we stormed the beach to fight the Germans? Was that a waste?

The US wasn't alone, sir. Don't forget, when the US joined the war, Canada had been fighting for over 2 years already. Our guys stormed the beach on D-Day just as much as yours. That was not a waste, because Nazi Germany WAS a 'clear and present danger'. It may interest you to know, sir, that, proportionately, Canada bled FAR more than the US in WWII. There are lots of memorials in my country. I've even visited a few of yours, and I show proper respect.

The Canadian soldiers I know say the Afghans want us there too. I know THEY believe it. They are committed to the mission. I'm not sure the public at large is, however.

It's no disgrace to servicemen (or any citizen) to say, "I respectfully disagree.". In fact, it's a duty of anyone who truly believes in democracy.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Beta
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:56 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 148):

Hmm...enlightened post from a supposedly enlightened country! Let see: Why should Americans care when Hitler and Himmler ran Europe and slaughtered millions, but posed no direct military threat to America? Why should American care when Slobodan Milosevic was slaughtering thousands in the Balkan not too long ago (10-15 yrs), but in no way shape or form threatened the security of the US? Was it not the Europeans who were pleading with the Clinton Admin to get involved and bombed Milosevic to stop him? And look where America did not care: the killing fields of Cambodia, Rwanda genocide, Dafur.
Saddam was an Iragi, and got Iraqis' justice served to him by Iragis. The world is a better place without him, without a doubt. It may not be in accordant with Western values, but it's an Iraqis way, and who are we to say it's wrong?
Saddam will most likely go into history along side with the butchers of the 20th century: Stalin, Hitler, Polpot, Milosevic, Ho Chi Minh, and (I will get flamed for this) Truman (yes, I hold him responsible for hundred thousands of deaths, possibly million).

[Edited 2006-12-30 17:53:50]

[Edited 2006-12-30 17:57:34]

[Edited 2006-12-30 18:00:05]

[Edited 2006-12-30 18:00:31]
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 151):
The US lost how many people when we stormed the beach to fight the Germans?

Stop to compare to reaaly different thing. WWII and the Iraqi crise are far from being related.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 151):
Show some respect to these people and stop disgracing them like this evil woman Cindy Sheehan already.

And if peoples die, that is only the fault of the ones who send them there. Otherwise, we are free to think what we think about this world's small trouble spot.
 
UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 148):

Honestly, Why Europeans should care about this news?

You shouldn't. And if our European ANetters - yourself included - don't care about this news.... be our guest and politely steer clear of this thread. Big grin

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 104):
to bad the hangmen didn't have the balls to do
it without balaclavas...

Wow. Just.... WOW.  no 

Aside from your ignorance of Muslim culture... hiding their faces also served the purpose to keeping them ALIVE. Having their image associated with Saddam's death would be akin to placing a giant bullseye on their foreheads.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 115):
More troops = more targets = more trouble

We've discussed this in other threads.

And the general conclusion? You're wrong.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 126):
The timing was bad. I think they ought to have waited until after the holiday. But again...

I have to disagree... the quicker it happened, the better.

In all honesty - this was something 3years in the making... ever since we first attacked Dora Farms on March 20, 2003.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 133):
Why did/does the USA with its vast resources and reserves NOT upgrade its expeditionary force as required ?

Well it's numerically impossible to fill every position with the proper MOS soldier. We have something like 500,000 active duty soldiers, there is just no way every unit can have a proper MI guy, or a proper supply guy, or administration guy, etc....

But we manage. Of course it certainly would be nice we were allowed to grow the size of our force.  Wink

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:21 am

Let me get this straight:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 153):
Yes, he used chemicals on his own people PRIOR to GWI (which I think was justified)

Yet you think

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 146):
--the death penalty is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hmmm. That's some back-assward logic there.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 156):

You have mis-read the post. Connies4ever is saying he agrees with the 1st Gulf War
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:35 am

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8600
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:52 am

[quote=TheSonntag,reply=127]:

Making it a fair trial for Hussein is only half the picture. What about making it fair for the victims?

Justice is not only for the accused, my friend. People seem to get lost in that these days.

As for the death penalty, it's purely a matter of opinion.

Send him to The Hague and he'll live the rest of his life in a cell with quality food and clean water most Iraqis will ever dream of, and no Iraqi will EVER have closure.

You drag this along and no-one will be better off.

[Edited 2006-12-30 18:54:32]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:01 am

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, therefore,

The General Assembly,

Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. ...

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10732
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:03 am

Cosec59 the issue is not Gulf War I but Conniesforever assertion in reply 153 that he believes the use of Chemical Weapons by Sadaam on his own people was justified, yet he also believes the death penalty is wrong.

I trust Conniesforever meant to say he thought Gulf War I was justified and not the use of chemical weapons, but unfortunately, that is not what he wrote. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as the two positions are not compatible.
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 156):
You shouldn't. And if our European ANetters - yourself included - don't care about this news.... be our guest and politely steer clear of this thread.

And don't forget that Airliners.net is not exclusively American.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 am

Christ, some of you are so dense that you believe that Iraqi and Arab culture is that of the Netherlands. The death penalty is standard practice in the Middle East. Had the Iraqis not executed Hussein and instead sentenced him to life in prison, it would've severely undermined the legitimacy of the Iraqi government. It would've made them look very weak (to both Iraqis and other Arabs) and like more of a puppet of western governments. Besides that, many Iraqis were still very fearful of Hussein and the Baathists regaining power, and lashing out at people who supported the new government. Well, the Baathist period in Iraqi politics ended this morning. Good for the Iraqis.

As to the "Saddam didn't get a fair trial" crowd: Were the Nuremberg trials unfair, as well? After all, instead of having Germans try Goring, Ribbentrop, Keitel, etc., it was the Allies who tried them in a tribunal setting. That's not exactly an impartial group of people. At least Saddam was tried by Iraqis, not Americans and Brits.

As usual, some people's reflexive anti-Americanism gets in the way of logic.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 165):
The death penalty is standard practice in the Middle East.

As it is the the US.

Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 165):
As usual, some people's reflexive anti-Americanism gets in the way of logic.

 Yeah sure
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 155):
Stop to compare to reaaly different thing. WWII and the Iraqi crise are far from being related.

And yet it still marked the SECOND time we had to bail your ass out from the Germans.

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 148):
Honestly, Why Europeans should care about this news? It is just only for American as the door of Hell open today in Iraq and I don't feel sorry at all.

And I hope the US doesn't feel sorry if and when the Germans decide to march across your border for a third time; you know, when the door to hell was opened for your country. I hope the US sits by eating popcorn should that day arrive.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 30):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 10):
A bad end for a unfair trial.

So are you saying he is not guilty? The man is guilty enough said. It was gona happen anyways and this was done in Iraq courts and not American courts. So if thats how the Iraqies want to try them then thats how they do it.

 checkmark 
I think the US Justice System should take notes on the quick, swift action that was taken here.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 156):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 126):
The timing was bad. I think they ought to have waited until after the holiday. But again...

I have to disagree... the quicker it happened, the better.

 checkmark 
You could only kill him once, so finding any additional way to add another "slap-in-the-face" was all for the better.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 130):
The trial was unfair because the verdict was found in Washington, not in Baghdad. Besides, what kind of justice system do they have there? Does it fulfill our standards?

Does it have to be "our standards"? Wouldn't that be "imposing our ways on them?"

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 160):
Making it a fair trial for Hussein is only half the picture. What about making it fair for the victims?

Justice is not only for the accused, my friend. People seem to get lost in that these days.

 checkmark  again.
Anyone ever here the introduction to "Law & Order"?
"In the criminal justice system the PEOPLE are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories."
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 157):
Let me get this straight:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 153):
Yes, he used chemicals on his own people PRIOR to GWI (which I think was justified)

Yet you think

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 146):
--the death penalty is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hmmm. That's some back-assward logic there.

Excuse me, but I think you must have misread my post. I had thought I was clear. I am against the death penalty. For anyone. No exceptions. It does not matter to me if the individual(s) have killed 1 or 1,000 or 100,000. Is that clear enough ? I never stated that Saddam should not be punished, and I think the humiliation of a jail cell for the rest of his miserable life should have sufficed.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 158):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 156):

You have mis-read the post. Connies4ever is saying he agrees with the 1st Gulf War

Thank you, sir. You go on my Respected List.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 168):
I never stated that Saddam should not be punished, and I think the humiliation of a jail cell for the rest of his miserable life should have sufficed.

What good would that have done? What would have been accomplished by him sitting safe in a jail cell receiving three hot meals, a warm bed, a shower, and most importantly, protection from his enemies? He would have received better treatment in prison than most of the citizens in his own country did under Saddam's reign of power, and there probably would have been little "humiliation" in the process.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 152):
How does this line of thinking work, the US is a democracy, and regardless of whether one voted for the current administration, reality is that the Govt. is representative of the wishes of the American people. In a democracy, it does not mean that you support "all policies" but you do support your government.

-
also in a democracy, you elect people into office. Their work is something which results out of a variety of factors of which YOUR aspirations just a part, possibly even a minor part. There however are also important people in the "machinery", people who in old-Comecon were described as the "apparatchiks", people in the bureaucracy, never elected but hired ages ago, and most influential. In short, a government and the people are NOT the same, also not in the best of any democracies. And NO, in a democracy, you do NOT support your government, you support your nation ! You rather are to oppose your government.
-

Quoting Par13del (Reply 152):
Criticism of the US govt. is criticism of the American People

NO. Criticizm of the government is what the opposition HAS to do. I expect an opposition in a parliamentary democracy to criticize the government. It is their DUTY and their job.
-

Quoting Beta (Reply 154):
Hmm...enlightened post from a supposedly enlightened country! Let see: Why should Americans care when Hitler and Himmler ran Europe and slaughtered millions, but posed no direct military threat to America?

-
the USA in WW-II were neutral for 3 years until the Japanese, allied with Nazi Germany attacked Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941 . the US ambassador to the United Kingdom, Mr Joseph Kennedy clearly told FDR that the Brits might learn from the Germans how to work
-

Quoting Beta (Reply 154):
Why should American care when Slobodan Milosevic was slaughtering thousands in the Balkan not too long ago (10-15 yrs), but in no way shape or form threatened the security of the US? Was it not the Europeans who were pleading with the Clinton Admin to get involved and bombed Milosevic to stop him?

-
basically right, except that more than 50% of the military actions were done by the United Kingdom. The U.K. however was eager to have the USA in the party as France was clearly pro-Serbian. And Bill Clinton, who had studied Eastern European politics at Oxford University, saw his chance to put some theory into practice in a sensible positive way. You see, I always admired his knowledge of East European affairs ! Strange that a US president knows more about Europe than 90--odd- percent of Europeans ! --- but fact
-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 156):
there is just no way every unit can have

-
I surrender ! in so far as YOU for sure have more knowledge about your forces than I have ... BUT to my experience, "hidden reserves" of the USA in general are larger than entire armies of other nations ! If you compare the armed forces of the USA and the UK then you WILL see that in the UK forces a very high percentage of upper-class and highly qualified professionals are evident, far more than in case of the USA where the armed forces are the "route" taken by immigrants to get up and by people from "socially challenged" areas to "get out" . As far as I know, a British soldier leaving military service, will have his service as a definite PLUS when applying for any job, and a British officer will be addressed by his military title until the end of his life. A "girl" I knew from the 1950ies who now lives near LHR is always amused when hearing her younger brother to be mentioned as "Lieutenant Tomasini". ----- Back to the USA. Instead of considering the draft, which is rubbish, alternative routes like "short-term employees" etc should be taken into consideration.
-

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 160):
What about making it fair for the victims?

-
NO Sir, this is impossible. Impossibe because A) you canNOT hang him 1000 times, and B) you should NOT get into revenge justice. Revenge justice would mean a revival of torture chambers etc. C) what the victims need is social +material +psychological +financial support just as the one provided by the organisation of Mr Gorbatchov.
-

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 160):
Send him to The Hague and he'll live the rest of his life in a cell with quality food and clean water most Iraqis will ever dream of, and no Iraqi will EVER have closure.

-
would that "comfort" have damaged the lifes of ordinary Iraqis ? hardly
-
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):
the USA in WW-II were neutral for 3 years until the Japanese, allied with Nazi Germany attacked Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941 .

How conveniently some forget!
Or perhaps they choose to ignore that fact
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 169):
What would have been accomplished by him sitting safe in a jail cell receiving three hot meals, a warm bed, a shower, and most importantly, protection from his enemies?

Pray tell, how much time have you spent in prison to make this comment? It's funny, every time the wannabe tough guys agree with a prison term, they mumble "Yeah let 'im rot in prison! Hoo-AH!" yet when they disagree, prison is only second in comfort to a mother's womb. So please, make up your mind.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 167):
And I hope the US doesn't feel sorry if and when the Germans decide to march across your border for a third time; you know, when the door to hell was opened for your country. I hope the US sits by eating popcorn should that day arrive.

As many of you are talking of History, think La Fayette or you would still be part of the Commonwealth.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:55 am

Finally justice for Saddam.


pelican
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8600
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):
would that "comfort" have damaged the lifes of ordinary Iraqis ? hardly

The victims not getting the justice they deserve?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):
NO Sir, this is impossible. Impossibe because A) you canNOT hang him 1000 times, and B) you should NOT get into revenge justice. Revenge justice would mean a revival of torture chambers etc. C) what the victims need is social +material +psychological +financial support just as the one provided by the organisation of Mr Gorbatchov.
-

Revenge is impossble in this case because all the victims cannot do whatever they want to Hussein,a s you stated.

But giving Hussein the highest punishment is the best and the fairest way to the victims and their familes.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 168):
Excuse me, but I think you must have misread my post. I had thought I was clear. I am against the death penalty. For anyone. No exceptions. It does not matter to me if the individual(s) have killed 1 or 1,000 or 100,000. Is that clear enough ? I never stated that Saddam should not be punished, and I think the humiliation of a jail cell for the rest of his miserable life should have sufficed.

That's not what you wrote when you said the use of chemical weapons was justified.

He had no ICBMs/IRBMs, no bombers. No nukes - and that's something I'm an expert in, since it's my line of work. No evidence of chemicals AFTER Gulf War I. Yes, he used chemicals on his own people PRIOR to GWI (which I think was justified) in the infamous Anfal campaign.

[Edited 2006-12-30 20:09:04]
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 172):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 169):
What would have been accomplished by him sitting safe in a jail cell receiving three hot meals, a warm bed, a shower, and most importantly, protection from his enemies?

Pray tell, how much time have you spent in prison to make this comment?

I'll make a big admission to all here: I was in jail once. For almost a day. There is no sound like the sound of the bars sliding shut behind you. Conversely, there is no sound like the sound of the RCMP corporal opening the cell and saying, "You're free to go, sir.".

As for three hot meals a day, well, some might call them meals. And I didn't get a shower.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 176):
That's not what you wrote when you said the use of chemical weapons was justified.

My original statement is included in the following snip:

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 157):
Let me get this straight:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 153):
Yes, he used chemicals on his own people PRIOR to GWI (which I think was justified)

Yet you think

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 146):
--the death penalty is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hmmm. That's some back-assward logic there.

"(which I think was justified)" refers to GWI (Gulf War 1 if you require clarification).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 175):
The victims not getting the justice they deserve?

I think, although it may just be a musing, that most Iraqis nowadays are far too occupied with merely staying alive to care much about "justice", "fairness" and "due punishment".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 175):
But giving Hussein the highest punishment is the best and the fairest way to the victims and their familes.

It also sends out a nice signal to other dictators around the world - after all, we must not forget that the death penalty is a deterrant  sarcastic  - which says in simple words:
"If you do get ousted, don't worry. There will be a farce of a trial giving you the opportunity to put on one last show for your supporters. After that, you will die a quick death and turn into a martyr for some quicker than the idiots who had you killed will realise. Your legacy will live on since no one will really care about the past once you're dead."
Had Saddam been sentenced to life in prison, the Iraqi court could have shown it doesn't want blood on his hands the way Saddam accumulated it. He would also have served as an example, slowly rotting away in a supermax prison far away from anyone who might ever want to help him; he'd have got no air time on international TV and he would definitely not have become a martyr for many.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 178):
(which I think was justified)" refers to GWI (Gulf War 1 if you require clarification).

Ok. It could be read either way. It read like the chemical weapons were justified.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 179):
"If you do get ousted, don't worry. There will be a farce of a trial giving you the opportunity to put on one last show for your supporters. After that, you will die a quick death and turn into a martyr for some quicker than the idiots who had you killed will realise. Your legacy will live on since no one will really care about the past once you're dead."
Had Saddam been sentenced to life in prison, the Iraqi court could have shown it doesn't want blood on his hands the way Saddam accumulated it. He would also have served as an example, slowly rotting away in a supermax prison far away from anyone who might ever want to help him; he'd have got no air time on international TV and he would definitely not have become a martyr for many.

According to your measure the Nuremberg trials were also a farce. And BTW Rudolf Heß became a martyr despite his livelong prison sentence.

pelican
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 181):
According to your measure the Nuremberg trials were also a farce.

Nope. Those trials redefined our understanding of war as a crime, while the Saddam trial sentenced him for one massacre - which certainly needed sentencing - alone, and to quench some people's thirst for revenge.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 181):
And BTW Rudolf Heß became a martyr despite his livelong prison sentence.

Yes, but to only a few. He never became

Quoting Aloges (Reply 179):
a martyr for many.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8600
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 179):
I think, although it may just be a musing, that most Iraqis nowadays are far too occupied with merely staying alive to care much about "justice", "fairness" and "due punishment".

Oh they are the people who are probably in most need of justice.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 179):
"If you do get ousted, don't worry. There will be a farce of a trial giving you the opportunity to put on one last show for your supporters. After that, you will die a quick death and turn into a martyr for some quicker than the idiots who had you killed will realise.

Sure they could look at it that way. Maybe for a martyr. But I don't think most people aspire to die and "make an exit" on their way out. I think they'd rather piss less people off and live longer.

BTW I don't see Saddam as a martyr, at least for most for the middle east. Nobody liked him. Some people may use it as an excuse now but it will soon be forgotten.

Ex: Just saw a picture of a palestinian boy holding a candle and a piture of Saddam. Little does he know that the guy on his poster could have financed his first and only bomb-belt. Very ironic.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 182):

Nope. Those trials redefined our understanding of war as a crime, while the Saddam trial sentenced him for one massacre - which certainly needed sentencing - alone, and to quench some people's thirst for revenge.

Keep in mind, Aloges, that if you seek to trial and sentence him for every single bit of human rights abuse - something that is probably impossible to begin with - it's gonna take many lifetimes. That's why it's better to do it quickly.

I don't think Iraqis care that he was sentenced for one massacre. Like you said, they have other worries - it's all paper work they'd have to wait after all. And I'm sure they are glad to put this pain behind them (as much as they can).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
pelican
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 182):

Nope. Those trials redefined our understanding of war as a crime, while the Saddam trial sentenced him for one massacre - which certainly needed sentencing - alone, and to quench some people's thirst for revenge

But in the end the Nuremberg trials didn't follow the rule of law. Nonetheless they were justice.
And yes you're right it's a shame that Saddam was only sentenced for one - albeit babarous - crime.
But then a short trial was maybe better for Iraq. Just look at Milosevic, he died innocent - in the sense of not sentenced for his crimes. I remember a discussion after his death whether a short but incomplete trial would have been better.
In the end those trials and sentences are always political. There was never a doubt whether Saddam or Pinochet or Göring or Milosevic or Caucesku were guilty. They did their crimes in the open and called it politics or their politics were crimes.

pelican
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:54 am

I still do believe that it is better to put someone in jail forever than killing.

Killing a human being is wrong, always. There are situations like wars where this might be inevitable, but war is never the solution. With a better political concept, the Iraq would not have become such a mess, but this is getting off topic.

In any case, my position is clear. Even the worst criminal must not be killed by a state, because a society shall not kill humans at any time.

I think letting people sit in jail for 50 years is much worse, and much more appropriate as a punishment. Prison is no fun. As a good example, I recommend to look on the Albert Speer case. He stayed 20 years in prison, 7300 days. This time certainly had a bigger effect than a death penalty could ever give.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:58 am

You know, this whole concept of "justice" has gotten all twisted.

Justice is not what comes out of the end of some trial, adversarial process, whatever. Justice is personal. Justice is what some guy is going to get if I ever catch him fooling with my little granddaughter. It's going to be quick and final. And I will happily stand trial for it. Call that revenge and I won't argue with you. Now if it's a property crime, i.e., someone trashes my car, then I'll pursue the offender through other means.

What we have, in most civilised countries, is a _legal system_. The purpose of a legal system is to ensure that everyone accused of something is treated in an equitable fashion, same rules apply whether it's a murder trial or a DUI. Evidence is presented correctly. Testimony is accurately recorded. No undue influence is brought on people to not tell the truth. Judgement, when by a jury, is by a "jury of your peers". In fact, in Canada, 90% of all criminal trials are before a judge alone, but then again, 90% of the charges are for fairly minor offences, so perhaps that's appropriate.

We do not have a _justice system_, because, as far as I believe, you can't create one. And won't ever be able to, since we all have differing concepts of what justice actually is, whether it's the death penalty, jail, listening to your mother-in-law, or whatever.

But I'll tell you, if you're ever charged with something, which I was, you _sure as hell_ want a legal system. Evidence that's taken improperly cannot be entered, and thereby you walk, and so you should. If the state (or Crown in Canada) cannot make it's case within the rules, then there is no case.

This is tangential to the Saddam thing but I believe it touches on many of the posts which refer to justice. I'm sure others will have differing opinions, but that's what's great about the Internet, isn't it ?

A happy and safe New Year to all in Netland.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 186):
Killing a human being is wrong, always.

Always?

So when I was involved in that fire-fight a few months back, and it was kill or be killed.... I am a criminal?  Confused

Take me away to the Hague, I suppose.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 188):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 186):
Killing a human being is wrong, always.

Always?

So when I was involved in that fire-fight a few months back, and it was kill or be killed.... I am a criminal? Confused

Take me away to the Hague, I suppose.

-UH60

UH --

From my perspective at least (and I'm a swivilian), killing is wrong IF you have a reasonable choice. In a fire-fight, I don't thikn that's really an option. As I believe I've related in at least one part of this long thread, I know a number of our guys who have deployed to Afghanistan and have been involved in same. From what I can make out, it's a no-think situation almost, where your training and leadership structures are primary.

But at the same time, looking into the faces of some of these very young men, they've changed.

Be safe and make it home.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 188):
o when I was involved in that fire-fight a few months back, and it was kill or be killed.... I am a criminal?

Certainly you did not read my post:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 186):

There are situations like wars where this might be inevitable, but war is never the solution. With a better political concept, the Iraq would not have become such a mess, but this is getting off topic.

So, no, of course you are just doing your job. My father is soldier in the German army, he is also doing his job. He told me when he was in Bosnia, small children were coming rushing to him cheering that there finally was military protecting them. Fortunately he was not involved in shooting, but if, this certainly would have been his job.

But killing someone is still wrong. It might be inevitable, but this does not make it a good thing to do.

So the main policy must be avoidance of killing. The purpose of modern military should be avoidance of its own usage, not the usage of it. During the cold war, the military trained in order to avoid its own mission ever to be carried out in practice.

As said before, I am no friend of pacifism. I do believe strong military is necessary, and this must also include its usage. But the main purpose in the 21st century must be prevention. The world needs less killing, not more. In a world of peace, every killing is wrong.

Your case should remain the exemption of the rule that killing is wrong.

About the Iraq mission: It was a bad idea, it was wrong to start this war without a political concept. But now it must be finished. I hope you manage to get peace down there, it is the best for everyone. But also here it is strictly important to use military force only as long as it is absolutely necessary.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 127):
The international court in The Hague, on the other hand, does not have this problem, as it has an universal power for all criminal violations of international law, such as war crimes. This court does guarantee the fair trial rule, it obeys the nulla poena sine lege rule and it also protects its participants. Unfortunately there is one state which wants to bring democracy, peace and freedom to the world, but does not put its own people under this jurisdiction.

there are at present 104 countries which are members of the international court. Which of the eighty or so others that are not signatories do you refer to?

seeing as you're up on the subject could you give me a summary of the successful prosecutions by the international court in the Hague and the punishments they've handed out, all stern and magisterial like?

Oh.....they really haven't convicted anyone, have they? But they're working on it. As of November 2006 they thought they had enough evidence to bring some low level thugs to trial for something or other.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/press/pressreleases/201.html
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 193):

Of course they haven't. Yet. That is because this court is not to replace national courts. Normal proceedings are to be placed where they belong, in national, domestic courts, just like it shall be according to the general rule of public international law that no one shall interfere with internal affairs.

This court was set as a court for international war crimes for extreme crimes. Fortunately, these are not that common again. It is better if this court has not much to do.

This court is to be a way into the 21st century. Saddams trial is not.
 
RobertNL070
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:11 am

The International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague was established on 1st July 2002 as a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and such like. This court is intended as a last resort: investigating and prosecuting only where national courts have failed. The court's jurisdiction is not retroactive, it can only examine crimes committed on or after the date of its foundation. It's not as if the ICC is digging up new cases to try every day of the week.

Robert  bouncy 
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 195):
Of course they haven't. Yet. That is because this court is not to replace national courts. Normal proceedings are to be placed where they belong, in national, domestic courts, just like it shall be according to the general rule of public international law that no one shall interfere with internal affairs.

This court was set as a court for international war crimes for extreme crimes. Fortunately, these are not that common again. It is better if this court has not much to do.

This court is to be a way into the 21st century. Saddams trial is not.

All well and good. That's the future. But until we get to the future, folks have got to deal with the present-and that includes the Iraqis.

I think because the outcome was never in doubt does not mean Saddam did not get a fair trial-certainly fairer than he might have offered his opponents under similar conditions. It means that his guilt was never in doubt.

I'm for self determination. Although I'm against the death penalty and we do not have it in my state it is up to the people of a jurisdiction to decide how they're going to determine guilt or innocence and punish criminals.

I look forward to the translation and publication of the trial transcripts. It should be interesting.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Beta
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):
the USA in WW-II were neutral for 3 years until the Japanese, allied with Nazi Germany attacked Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941 . the US ambassador to the United Kingdom, Mr Joseph Kennedy clearly told FDR that the Brits might learn from the Germans how to work

Uhhmm...True, the Brits and the Soviet were soldiering on before US entry, but I wonder who provided the logistics (planes, trucks, bombs, fuel, ammunition, and food) for the Brits and some to the Soviet and China before 1941, ya know.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 170):
basically right, except that more than 50% of the military actions were done by the United Kingdom. The U.K. however was eager to have the USA in the party as France was clearly pro-Serbian. And Bill Clinton, who had studied Eastern European politics at Oxford University, saw his chance to put some theory into practice in a sensible positive way. You see, I always admired his knowledge of East European affairs ! Strange that a US president knows more about Europe than 90--odd- percent of Europeans ! --- but fact

Wrong! > 50% of miltary actions done by the UK? During the first bombing run in Bosnia, the USAForce did > 95% bombing runs because European airforces at the time simply did not have precision bombing capability. For the SFOR forces USArmy provided ~ 20000 troops spearheaded by 1st Armor Div. True, later in Kosovo, the bulk of ground force was provided by the UK, but again the USAForce did majority of the bombing runs ( i dont have exact figure, but ~ 90% +/-), and provided air cover the ground forces. So yes, the UK contributed mightily, and some other nations, but nowhere near more than 50% as you claimed.
 
skyhawk
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:35 am

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy! Seriously, no matter what we think of him or what has happened to him is minor compared to what he has had to deal with in meeting his maker.
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:46 am

Here's the full death video if anyone wants it.

http://www.anwarweb.net/saddamdown.wmv

Also this is what I believe he is saying before he dies...
He is saying the "shahada", the witnessing that should be the last words on the lips of a muslim (in theory)

"I bear witness that there is no god but god, I bear witness that Muhammad *cut off, hung*". should have finished "Is the messenger of god"

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:07:02]
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
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cedars747
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:57 am

Can anyone explain to me why Saddam was executed on the Eid ul-Adha ?

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 197):
d Sat Dec 30 2006 22:57:16 UTC+1 (1 minute 54 secs ago) and read 2 times:

Can anyone explain to me why Saddam was executed on the Eid ul-Adha ?

I believe it started at dawn, and they killed him before dawn so it officially wasn't the holiday yet.
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
CPH813
Posts: 149
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RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:05 am

I don't support the killing of Saddam Hussein. That's like sinking to his own level and it is not the duty for a government to kill its people just like Saddam shouldn't have killed innocent Iraqis either.

He should have been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in a prison, and either he was sick and was born sick or something earlier in his life made him what he became later on. If either of that is the case, you can't blame him 100%, therefore wrong to sentence anyone to death no matter how cruel a person has been. That's inhumane.

time for me to get flamed...

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:06:42]
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting CPH813 (Reply 200):
I don't support the killing of Saddam Hussein. That's like sinking to his own level and it is not the duty for a government to kill its people just like Saddam shouldn't have killed innocent Iraqis either.

Didn't his own people kill him there bucko? You don't have to support anything. It happened.

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:09:02]
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
CPH813
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:42 am

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting 174thfwff (Reply 201):
You don't have to support anything. It happened.

? Even if it happened I can be against it, can't I?
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Saddam Is Dead

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting 174thfwff (Reply 201):
You don't have to support anything. It happened.

Ok we do not have to be against the holocaust either, because it also happened?

If people act like this we can send a stopper to human evolution. Just because things have happened does not mean we have to accept them or support them.

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:27:12]

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