Just hanged secretly at three o'clock in the morning.....
Sorry to indulge my interest in 'black humour', but the Iraqi Government just demonstrated that it has a good sense of modern 'public relations-speak':-
"Two of Saddam Hussein's aides Barzan Ibrahim and Awad Hamed al-Bandar were hanged before dawn today, the Iraqi government said, adding that the head of his half-brother Barzan was ripped from his body during the execution.
"The convicts were not subjected to any mistreatment," he said, describing the beheading by the rope as a rare mishap.
"Their rights were not violated. There was no chanting."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...nged/2007/01/15/1168709667533.html
Sure - getting your b****y head torn off isn't 'mistreatment', is it?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...nged/2007/01/15/1168709667533.html
[Edited 2007-01-15 13:56:11]
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): Sure - getting your b****y head torn off isn't 'mistreatment', is it? |
Like the guy didn't deserve it. Honestly, do you have any sympathy for him? I sure don't. If you want my opinion, they should have quartered him, gutted him, and then cut his head off.
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): Sure - getting your b****y head torn off isn't 'mistreatment', is it? |
Considering what they did. IMHO, NO! They deserved a lot worse. I wish this could have happened to our buddy Saddam, oh well. Can't always get what you want. Was what happened to Mussolini mistreatment?
My heart's out to all the families of the victims these major league a-holes mistreated.
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 1): If you want my opinion, they should have quartered him, gutted him, and then cut his head off. |
By all accounts, JetJock22, he was part of a government that invaded other countries, used military force on civilian populations, imprisoned people without trial, tortured them etc.
If you think that that justifies the treatment meted out to him, so be it.
But please inform me as to what this guy did that George Bush and his Administration have not also done? And if you agree that they also have 'invaded other countries, used military force on civilian populations, imprisoned people without trial, tortured them etc.', would you be in favour of the same sort of treatment being meted out to them?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
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RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 1): If you want my opinion, they should have quartered him, gutted him, and then cut his head off. |
whenever they for sure would have deserved such things, you should NOT live out your inner instincts. That this particular head "flew off" was a mishap, that many people take joy out of that affair is NOT exactly "uplifting" but a bit sad.
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The torture chambers are history !
and medieval instincts are not desirable in a modern world ! 
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3): But please inform me as to what this guy did that George Bush and his Administration have not also done? |
George Bush didn't gas his own people.
George Bush didn't plan assassinations of political opponents.
George Bush didn't personally order the deaths of anyone.
George Bush didn't use chemical weapons against an enemy.
George Bush didn't personally murder anyone with his own hands.
Is that enough for you.
Look, I'm as big an opponent of President Bush as you'll find in the U.S. I don't like his policies, and I don't like what he stands for.
But for ANYONE to compare him with Saddam Hussein, or any of his henchmen is the hight of ignorance at such an extreme as to be mind-boggling.
Why not stick with realities, instead of such fake moralistic sophostries?
Work Right, Fly Hard
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
Regrettably, Falcon84, these things are (and always have been) part of 'government':-
invaded other countries - Iraq, invaded Iran (at US urging). and Kuwait (on its own account - USA, invaded Iraq.
used military force on civilian populations - Iraq, Kurdish cities - USA, 'Shock and Awe', use of cluster bombs and MLRS during the invasion, Fallujah.
imprisoned people without trial - Iraq, Abu Ghraib - USA, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib.
tortured them etc. - Iraq, Abu Ghraib - USA, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, 'extraordinary rendition', etc.
Don't get me wrong - I get cynical in my old age, I just see the darker face of government as a 'fact of life.' But it sickens me when people in the USA (or Australia for that matter) so readily assume that only the 'bad guys' (as designated by their own local media) do it.
ALL governments do it.
[Edited 2007-01-16 14:27:43]
invaded other countries - Iraq, invaded Iran (at US urging). and Kuwait (on its own account - USA, invaded Iraq.
used military force on civilian populations - Iraq, Kurdish cities - USA, 'Shock and Awe', use of cluster bombs and MLRS during the invasion, Fallujah.
imprisoned people without trial - Iraq, Abu Ghraib - USA, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib.
tortured them etc. - Iraq, Abu Ghraib - USA, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, 'extraordinary rendition', etc.
Don't get me wrong - I get cynical in my old age, I just see the darker face of government as a 'fact of life.' But it sickens me when people in the USA (or Australia for that matter) so readily assume that only the 'bad guys' (as designated by their own local media) do it.
ALL governments do it.
[Edited 2007-01-16 14:27:43]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6): |
You asked me what Mr. Bush hasn't done what Saddam's regime did, and I named them. Am I saying he's a saint? No. But he's no Saddam Hussein, and most Americans will stand behind Mr. Bush in a minute if you or anyone else starts comparing him to mass murderers like that.
Work Right, Fly Hard
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4): that many people take joy out of that affair is NOT exactly "uplifting" but a bit sad. - The torture chambers are history ! and medieval instincts are not desirable in a modern world ! |
I'm not advocating that they actually do that sort of stuff. I just simply am saying I don't feel bad and really don't think he was mistreated since his head popped off.
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 8): I'm not advocating that they actually do that sort of stuff. |
You could have fooled me.....
| Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 1): If you want my opinion, they should have quartered him, gutted him, and then cut his head off. |
Falcon84, ALL Heads of State are vulnerable if they are put on trial for things that happened during their time in office. Bush, being C-in-C as well as head of state, would be particularly vulnerable since he can arguably be held personally responsible for everything the US armed forces do.
In any case, though, being a cynic, my main complaint is about the inept PR 'handling' of this business. By far the best PR option in the case of Saddam would have been to make sure that he was 'shot while attempting to escape.'
Instead we've seen a show-trial followed by a series of brutal revenge killings - all televised world-wide.
Apart from anything else, they represent the worst possible 'advertisement' for any policy of regime change. Recent events prove beyond doubt that life for ordinary Iraqis nowadays is at least as bad as it ever was under Saddam. In all probability, it's a damn sight worse.
As the French say, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
Executing them wasn't "miss"-treatment because it was deserving-treatment IMO.
I think the death penalty for people like Saddam is necessary.
The beheading was accidental, not intentional, so it qualifies as an accident not as a "mistreatment". You can't call something mistreatment when something like this occurs.
I think the death penalty for people like Saddam is necessary.
The beheading was accidental, not intentional, so it qualifies as an accident not as a "mistreatment". You can't call something mistreatment when something like this occurs.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
Looks like one guy agrees with me that it's a PR stuffup, anyway. George W. someone, sounded as if he was quite high up in US Government circles..... 
"President Bush says Iraq sent a confusing signal to the world. Mr. Bush says after giving Saddam Hussein a fair trial, Iraqi officials mishandled his execution.
"It re-enforced doubts in peoples' minds that the Maliki government - the unity government of Iraq - is a serious government, which makes it harder for me to make the case to the American people that this is a government that does want to unify the country and move forward," said President Bush.
"An illicit cell phone video of the execution last month of Saddam Hussein showed the former Iraqi leader being taunted as he stood on the gallows. The graphic images inflamed sectarian passions in Iraq, infuriating members of his Sunni faction. On Monday, the controversy was renewed when an official government video showed the hanging of two of his top aides, including his half brother who was beheaded by the noose.
"During an interview broadcast on the Public Broadcast System program The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, President Bush said he has discussed the executions with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and members of his government.
"Basically, I said to people while you conducted a trial and gave Saddam justice that he didn't give to others, but then when it came time to execute him it looked like it was kind of a revenge killing," he said."
http://voanews.com/english/2007-01-17-voa7.cfm
"President Bush says Iraq sent a confusing signal to the world. Mr. Bush says after giving Saddam Hussein a fair trial, Iraqi officials mishandled his execution.
"It re-enforced doubts in peoples' minds that the Maliki government - the unity government of Iraq - is a serious government, which makes it harder for me to make the case to the American people that this is a government that does want to unify the country and move forward," said President Bush.
"An illicit cell phone video of the execution last month of Saddam Hussein showed the former Iraqi leader being taunted as he stood on the gallows. The graphic images inflamed sectarian passions in Iraq, infuriating members of his Sunni faction. On Monday, the controversy was renewed when an official government video showed the hanging of two of his top aides, including his half brother who was beheaded by the noose.
"During an interview broadcast on the Public Broadcast System program The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, President Bush said he has discussed the executions with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and members of his government.
"Basically, I said to people while you conducted a trial and gave Saddam justice that he didn't give to others, but then when it came time to execute him it looked like it was kind of a revenge killing," he said."
http://voanews.com/english/2007-01-17-voa7.cfm
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9): In any case, though, being a cynic, my main complaint is about the inept PR 'handling' of this business. By far the best PR option in the case of Saddam would have been to make sure that he was 'shot while attempting to escape.' |
I have thought this all along. If the soldier who found Saddam would have just dropped a grenade into that hole and said Saddam was pointing a gun at him, then the whole thing is over. No need for the show trial, the botched execution and the revenge killings...hopefully. But it didnt turn out that way.
Decapitation is a potential event when hanging someone. I would imagine that is part of the reason it is no longer done in the western world. It is gruesome by all accounts.
NAV20, your right on some of your accounts about GWB being considered a war criminal, but the same could be said for Churchill and FDR. The main difference in all these groups of people, is that they won whichever war is in question.
RE: Iraqis - Saddam's Aides 'Not Mistreated'.........
| Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
NAV20, your right on some of your accounts about GWB being considered a war criminal, but the same could be said for Churchill and FDR. |
Absolutely, Bushpilot. As I've said, the principle could be applied to almost any head of state or prime minister. And you're right that 'winners are grinners' - Churchill and Roosevelt (or rather their successors), having won, were free to set up the Nuremberg trials of the Nazi 'war criminals.'
[Edited 2007-01-18 02:54:58]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci