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Aaron747
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US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:46 am

This is very rare for high-ranking Japanese officials to criticize the US in public, and now the US is threatening to reschedule an entire round of important discussions over criticism of the President. What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

U.S. protests Kyuma's criticism of Bush
BUT DEFENSE CHIEF RAPS WASHINGTON AGAIN
Kyodo News

The U.S. government has filed a protest over Defense Minister Fumio Kyuma's remarks last week criticizing President George W. Bush's decision to invade Iraq, diplomatic sources said Saturday.

But on Saturday, Kyuma criticized Washington again, this time for failing to understand the need to consult with Okinawa over plans to relocate the Futenma air base.

James Zumwalt, director of the Office of Japanese Affairs at the State Department, made the protest to the Japanese Embassy in Washington, saying the United States takes the remarks seriously as they came shortly after Bush's State of the Union speech, the sources said. He also said the remarks could have a negative impact on the bilateral alliance.

In the annual speech to Congress on Tuesday, Bush urged the legislative branch to throw its support behind his plan to increase the number of U.S. troops in Iraq at a time when his approval ratings are at their lowest point.

Kyuma told the Japan National Press Club in Tokyo on Wednesday he believes Bush's decision to go ahead with the war in Iraq in March 2003 was a mistake because it was based on the erroneous assumption that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

Zumwalt also said it may be difficult to arrange the schedule for the next Japan-U.S. ministerial security talks involving the foreign affairs and defense chiefs of the two countries if there are any more remarks critical of Bush, the sources said.


more here

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070128a4.html

Kyuma's original comments here

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070125a1.html
 
aloges
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

Their credo has always been "you are free to say whatever we like", so that's hardly a surprise.  Wink
 
mdsh00
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

I think the US government is not exclusive in getting its panties in a wad from time to time.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
now the US is threatening to reschedule an entire round of important discussions over criticism of the President. What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

No, it's just an indication it was a really slow news day. I could probably find hundreds of similar instances from all over the globe with a simple Google search.
 
Falcon84
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:21 am

Why should the administration worry about this? 95% of the world has always been against the invasion of Iraq! And the war deserves criticism.

Paranoia, what a wonderful thing.
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):now the US is threatening to reschedule an entire round of important discussions over criticism of the President. What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?
No, it's just an indication it was a really slow news day. I could probably find hundreds of similar instances from all over the globe with a simple Google search.

On our side, I can attest to countless times where I've seen a USG statement drafted to be delivered at an international meeting edited because someone was afraid it would be interpreted as an verbal attack on another country.
 
andessmf
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
No, it's just an indication it was a really slow news day. I could probably find hundreds of similar instances from all over the globe with a simple Google search.

Agreed, I don't think this goes beyond normal diplomatic relationship stuff.

Or better said, if some people claim that they don't like that the US meddle in other countries deals, criticism of the Iraq war by other countries, when there is already so much of it at home, is nothing but overkill.
 
MDorBust
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

Kyuma was blustering too.

It's just more of the usual rhetoric that gets thrown around by the Japanese concerning American military bases. I kind of miss the daily protests outside the base gates. It's just rhetoric to attempt to get more American concessions. If Fuyuma wants to take the chance of taking public shots at the US right before he's supposed to be on the negotiating team, he risks getting his knuckles bloodied. Fuyuma wanted the schedule for the next meeting pushed up. He apparently tried the wrong tactic to get that.
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?
Kyuma was blustering too.

It's just more of the usual rhetoric that gets thrown around by the Japanese concerning American military bases. I kind of miss the daily protests outside the base gates. It's just rhetoric to attempt to get more American concessions. If Fuyuma wants to take the chance of taking public shots at the US right before he's supposed to be on the negotiating team, he risks getting his knuckles bloodied. Fuyuma wanted the schedule for the next meeting pushed up. He apparently tried the wrong tactic to get that.

I have an excellent solution. Let's pull all of our troops out of Korea, Japan, and Okinawa. World War II ended almost 62 years ago. It's high time South Korea and Japan shouldered the burden of their own defense.
 
AMS
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):
have an excellent solution. Let's pull all of our troops out of Korea, Japan, and Okinawa. World War II ended almost 62 years ago. It's high time South Korea and Japan shouldered the burden of their own defense.

That is exactly what Japan wants. For the U.S troops to leave Okinawa, Yokoska and others. But I think that the main reason why the U.S Army is still there is because of North Korea. It would be also a possibility for the U.S army to move to other places such as Guam or Saipan, but these locations are more far away from North Korea and would take more time to react to a possible threat.

Regards,
AMS
 
L-188
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:55 pm

Just routine diplomatic postering.....by both sides.

Happens every day without hitting the news.

Give it a week and it will die down.
 
N1120A
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:47 pm

Wait a second. The US government is protesting criticism of Dubya, but tells Canada to piss off when they ask the US to correct a mistake made with a Canadian?
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
That is exactly what Japan wants. For the U.S troops to leave Okinawa, Yokoska and others. But I think that the main reason why the U.S Army is still there is because of North Korea. It would be also a possibility for the U.S army to move to other places such as Guam or Saipan, but these locations are more far away from North Korea and would take more time to react to a possible threat.

It's high time the countries in that region of the world step up to the plate and deal with North Korea.
 
MDorBust
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
That is exactly what Japan wants.

No they don't.

Japan knows they stand to lose billions of dollars if the US pulls out completely.

What the Japanese really want are the military installations to be moved out of the tight quarters they have grown into.

Iwakuni is being moved further off shore.

Futenma I believe is being entirely closed and it's operations relocated into another existing facility.

There are continuing depates about restructuring the airspace controls for the northern airbases/naval facilities.

One of the last things the Japanese government wants is for the US to up and leave. It would severly impact the economy in terms of lost income, and force Japan to spend more on it's own defense.
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
One of the last things the Japanese government wants is for the US to up and leave. It would severly impact the economy in terms of lost income, and force Japan to spend more on it's own defense.

So in other words, Japan wants us to stay in theater, wants us to spend more money moving troops around where it will be convenient for them, all so their economy won't be hurt, and force them to provide for their own defense.

Let's leave tomorrow, if not sooner.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
That is exactly what Japan wants.

Not necessarily. Japan mainly relies on the US for its national defense, even though they have their own self-defense force, the are strictly prohibited by their own constitution to go to war with other countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Military

Quote:

Japan's military is restricted by Article 9 of the Constitution of Japan of 1946, which states that "Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes." Thus, Japan's current constitution prohibits the use of military force to wage war against other countries.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
No they don't.

Not exactly true either. There will always be people who want so and so out of country X, regardless of circumstance. However, from my understanding, most Japanese welcome the Americans.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
Let's leave tomorrow, if not sooner.

Will not happen. The real reason for the Article 9 of the Constitution of Japan was to prevent them from becoming a military power again. However, I will agree times have changed, but the Japanese are proud people, and I'm sure they still have high honor within their society, much like the society back in World War 2 where they would have fought to every last man, woman, and child if the US invaded.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:45 am

God Forbid anyone dare to criticize "KING GEORGE"
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):
I have an excellent solution. Let's pull all of our troops out of Korea, Japan, and Okinawa. World War II ended almost 62 years ago. It's high time South Korea and Japan shouldered the burden of their own defense.

I agree. Lets close the bases over there too. Lets close all of our bases that are NOT in our country. It is time for us to stop our imperialism around the world. Americans would blow a fit if Germany set up an Air Force base in Main, Japan set up one in California and Brazil set up one in south Florida. It would never be allowed here, so why do we have bases all over the world on other people's land?

Then I hear about bases being closed in America, which results in bad economic effects for small towns that had bases near them. For example, when the Wurtsmith B-52 base in Oscoda Michigan closed down, a lot of businesses went out of business since people depended on military personnel from the base to give them business. Rumsfeld went through a list of base closings a few years back, I don't recall any of them being on foreign lands. Again, Michigan got hit. They are closing the small ANG base of A-10s at the Battlecreek Airport. The A-10s will be moved to Selfridge ANG in Mount Clemens Mich (the only military air base left in MI). However, the KC-135s and F-16s will be moved out of Selfridge.
 
MDorBust
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Americans would blow a fit if Germany set up an Air Force base in Main

Why, they already have one in New Mexico, and a missile training range in Texas.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Japan set up one in California

Naval Facilities.

In fact, the US plays host to a great many foreign militaries.

I believe that Indonesian helicopters were some of the first responders to Hurricane Katrina. That's because they only had to fly from Texas.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Rumsfeld went through a list of base closings a few years back, I don't recall any of them being on foreign lands.

My father served proudly with the 3rd AD until they got snuffed. We were living in Germany at the time.

Your revisionist history is pathetic.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Naval Facilities.

In fact, the US plays host to a great many foreign militaries.

I believe that Indonesian helicopters were some of the first responders to Hurricane Katrina. That's because they only had to fly from Texas.

That is a first. Where does Japan have Naval facilities in California, and since when does Indonesia have a chopper base in Texas?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
My father served proudly with the 3rd AD until they got snuffed. We were living in Germany at the time.

Your revisionist history is pathetic.

How many foreign bases got closed in Rumsfeld's latest round as compared to the USA?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):
Let's pull all of our troops out of Korea, Japan, and Okinawa. World War II ended almost 62 years ago. It's high time South Korea and Japan shouldered the burden of their own defense.

Why not ? In the time of the War in Korea, North Korea had the full support of the Soviet Union and of China. It looks as if this had changed a bit over the years, and now both Russia and China have good relations with South Korea as well. And South Korea has become a relatively rich country, which could afford to improve its armed forces quite considerably. Japan at present for sure saves considerable money by "outsourcing" lots of military expenditure. Japan ought to strengthen its aerial and naval military forces in a way to relieve the USA of at least parts of that financial burden. But Japan in that case of course will also add political influence.
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):Let's leave tomorrow, if not sooner.
Will not happen. The real reason for the Article 9 of the Constitution of Japan was to prevent them from becoming a military power again.

Using the Japanese Constitution as a reason why we have to maintain troops in Japan and Okinawa is absurd. While there was a reason to keep troops stationed in Japan, the time has come to begin a phased withdrawal, just like we have done in Germany.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):I have an excellent solution. Let's pull all of our troops out of Korea, Japan, and Okinawa. World War II ended almost 62 years ago. It's high time South Korea and Japan shouldered the burden of their own defense.
I agree. Lets close the bases over there too. Lets close all of our bases that are NOT in our country. It is time for us to stop our imperialism around the world. Americans would blow a fit if Germany set up an Air Force base in Main, Japan set up one in California and Brazil set up one in south Florida. It would never be allowed here, so why do we have bases all over the world on other people's land?

If I'm not mistaken, Germany conducts flight training out of Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, and they have a facility at Dulles International they use in support of that training squadron.

I'm not saying we should totally abandon every one of our overseas bases. I'm saying that it's time that Japan and South Korea step up to the plate. We shouldn't be basing an entire Army Division in South Korea and Marine Division at Okinawa.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):Americans would blow a fit if Germany set up an Air Force base in Main
Why, they already have one in New Mexico, and a missile training range in Texas.

Only those that are uninformed would object.
 
MDorBust
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 19):
That is a first. Where does Japan have Naval facilities in California,

Japanese naval activities are conducted in Hawaii.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 19):
since when does Indonesia have a chopper base in Texas?

I was actually incorrect.

The CH-47s belonged to Singapore, not Indonesia. They came from Grand Prairie, Texas.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Using the Japanese Constitution as a reason why we have to maintain troops in Japan and Okinawa is absurd.

Agreed. But thats not the sole reason anymore. China. Our military power there now is to keep China in check. The US still needs to have military footing in the vicinity in case something does happen between the US-China relations. Lets hope it never comes to that though.
 
halls120
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 23):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):Using the Japanese Constitution as a reason why we have to maintain troops in Japan and Okinawa is absurd.
Agreed. But thats not the sole reason anymore. China. Our military power there now is to keep China in check. The US still needs to have military footing in the vicinity in case something does happen between the US-China relations. Lets hope it never comes to that though.

"Military footing" doesn't mean we need two full divisions stationed in theater. They couldn't stop a concerted attack by the Chinese - not that I anticipate one - and are there as a trip wire. A pretty damn expensive trip wire, I might add - one we shouldn't have to be still supporting. Time for the Japanese and South Korean taxpayer to belly up to the bar and buy a few rounds.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
"Military footing" doesn't mean we need two full divisions stationed in theater. They couldn't stop a concerted attack by the Chinese - not that I anticipate one - and are there as a trip wire. A pretty damn expensive trip wire, I might add - one we shouldn't have to be still supporting.

I'm not so sure. With the Japanese self-defense force and the South Korean military, I'm sure all three parties could stall the attack long enough for additional support to arrive. However, South Korea might have to deal with North Korea, and that would leave only Japan and US forces to deal with a head on attack. However, thats why we have nuclear deterrence there (nuclear carriers, warheads) which would make them think twice before attacking. But I do see your point, and times have greatly changed, and I believe the Japanese can be entrusted with nuclear ordinance if we decide to pull out.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
However, from my understanding, most Japanese welcome the Americans.

Hardly the case. A lot of people here think US military protection limits Tokyo's ability to assert its influence in the region, much less blatantly oppose or disagree with US policy when needed.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):

Kyuma was blustering too.

It's just more of the usual rhetoric that gets thrown around by the Japanese concerning American military bases.

His primary concern is that the American end of the Futenma agreement is pushing for rapid implementation of the plan and it has yet to receive the approval of Okinawa's prefectural governor. Kyuma has repeatedly expressed concern that the US is completely ignoring the Japanese domestic political process, which is generally true in point of fact.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):

"Military footing" doesn't mean we need two full divisions stationed in theater.

I would agree, but good luck convincing the powers that be on either side to actually apply force reductions. A lot of people here are convinced the US even has ICBM installations in Hokkaido.
 
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centrair
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:40 am

Double edged sword.

Japanese just upgraded the Ministry of Defense to a full Ministry. It was just a consultant type position till a month ago.

The Prime Minister wants to revise the constitution to allow Japan to have a standing Military ala pre WWII. Many Japanese do not want this as it might divert money away from the current social problems which is the government has been neglecting and blaming it on a lack of "pride in the nation" which some believe could be solved by having a military again.

The Government wants the US to pull out more troops, the Japanese people want the US to leave. But the Japanese people do not want to have a standing army. They just want the SDF.

The Japanese government has been criticized by the people for being "Bush followers". Most Japanese don't like Bush and don't like that Japanese domestic & foreign policies are a more than partial reflection of Bush's domestic & foreign policy. They don't like that Abe is and his predicessor Koizumi was so buddy buddy with Bush. So...what has to happen. A high ranking official criticises the US. It is public enough so that the Japanese people think that the government is actually standing up for the people. The US reacts which helps the Japanese government (PM Abe has as low an approval rating as Bush...anything can help). But you know...in the background, nothing is really happening. The tensions are not as great.

Now...on the case of Okinawa. This is a very very big issue. US wants to consolidate bases on the island but is not working with the local government and is basically pushing things through. Imagine if that was happening in your community. The Okinawans want the consolidation but don't want it forced on them. They want to have input on how, when and where it happens.

As for Iraq, Japan will be leaving Samuwa soon as they only signed on for a certain length and that time is up. They will continue their work in Afghanistan which they and the Japanese feel is more important humanitarily. They also feel it has more hope for success at this time.

Personally, I don't want my Japanese taxes going for a standing military in Japan. I want them going to improve schools and the social system which is in shambles. I do however would not mind seeing more taxes going to the SDF. I also would not mind it if the Japanese government had a system like the GI bill for Japanese kids to graduate from High school and joining hte SDF to get money for college. I would not mind my money going for that. There are plenty of young men in Japan who have absolutely no clue on what it means to defend or represent the nation. There are also many young men who would love to go to college but can't afford it or think they are not good enough. The SDF could change that.

Japan should remain a country that works for peace and should keep learning from its WWII mistakes. Once those mistakes are forgotten (they seem to be absent from the rulling party) the nation enters a downward spiral into totalitarianism and a social black hole.
 
baroque
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
This is very rare for high-ranking Japanese officials to criticize the US in public, and now the US is threatening to reschedule an entire round of important discussions over criticism of the President. What an overreaction. More proof that Washington has gone overboard in its arrogance, is it not?

Another option would be to inform the Japanese that George will apologize for invading Iraq after Japan apologises officially to the sex slaves from WWII and admits that the whaling in the Antarctic is not being done for "scientific purposes".

No need to worry W will never apologise, the Japanese will not either. I think Connies just posted something about Governments and their claims in another thread. Big grin
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:25 pm

The national broadcasting company was just sued by women's groups for editing content in a documentary about WWII sex slavery.
 
baroque
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
The national broadcasting company was just sued by women's groups for editing content in a documentary about WWII sex slavery.

Yes, it was on our radio news this morning.  bitelip 

The state of denial as Woodward would call it is amazing, especially as a number of respected Japanese historians have very accurate histories. Hey, ho, the world of realpolitik.

Not that ours has not get plenty to apologise for too!  ashamed 
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
95% of the world has always been against the invasion of Iraq!

Source? Oh it's from Falcon84.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):

Source? Oh it's from Falcon84.

Plenty more worthy of respect than anything coming from you. Thanks for contributing to the topic  Yeah sure
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Another option would be to inform the Japanese that George will apologize for invading Iraq after Japan apologises officially to the sex slaves from WWII and admits that the whaling in the Antarctic is not being done for "scientific purposes".

Bush has probably done a lot more harm to the whales with his environmental policies

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
Source? Oh it's from Falcon84.

Probably right. At least outside of the United States. I find it hard to believe that even 5% of the rest of the world would support our illegal invasion and occupation.
 
Jalto27R
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
so why do we have bases all over the world on other people's land?

Because, as one British Airways pilot said in a famous aviation quote, "we won the bloody war."
 
baroque
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 33):
Bush has probably done a lot more harm to the whales with his environmental policies

True, but shooting them with an explosive harpoon IS injurious to their health.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 33):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
Source? Oh it's from Falcon84.

Probably right. At least outside of the United States. I find it hard to believe that even 5% of the rest of the world would support our illegal invasion and occupation.

You would have to wonder who the 5% might be. But also, there would need to be a definition of what support might be.

In terms of majority opinion, Israel - no problems there. Kuwait. Possibly India, although not a member of the coalition of the willing. After that and one is scratching. Maybe Colombia but after that no point in looking elsewhere in S America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governm...-war_positions_on_invasion_of_Iraq
Shows 49 countries listed by Bush as "joined in a "coalition of the willing" in favor of forcibly removing Saddam Hussein". Unfortunately, that list includes so many countries such as Australia and the UK and a number of others where it is unlikely there was pre-invasion support in popular terms.

In the case of the UK, HM opposition must take more of the blame than the revolting half of the Labs!! With Aus, the opposition had just been beaten into the ground by a militaristic PM. It would be interesting to collect a set of the reasons why 49 governments were apparently willing while their voters were not so willing.

More generally Wiki goes on to say:
"Some newspapers and organizations questioned what "willing" meant in this context, or whether these countries' populations or even their governments were actually in favor of the plan to remove Saddam Hussein."

Even the Vilnius ten and Poland are difficult to work out. There is still some slight point in looking if only to emphasize the extent to which SOME popularly elected governments seem to be able to go against the wishes of their electorates.

Afghanistan is listed as willing, but if they had half a brain, they would not have been very keen, especially with about 10/10 hindsight.

I wonder how Falcon got his 5%, but it could be about right, between far too low if you believe that the "willing" really were willing, or a bit high if you look more closely at how "willing" they really were.

Important too, to remember that the "unwillingness" had been demonstrated before the proffered casus belli were known to be false. They just looked false (to this observer) at that stage.

It is important to examine what happened to try to ensure that it does not happen again. The post-war analyses generally seem to indicate that an occupation these days is just not going to work. That seems to be the most important point. Avoid occupations! Witnesses to be called will include Iraq, the West Bank and Lebanon not to mention the whole of E Europe.  banghead 
 
L-188
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 33):


Bush has probably done a lot more harm to the whales with his environmental policies

Yeah, that huge wildlife refuge he created for them off the coast of highway is going to be the death of them.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 34):
Because, as one British Airways pilot said in a famous aviation quote, "we won the bloody war."

Ok, I understand Rammstein and other bases in Germany - ok due to WWII, Japan, Italy due to WWII. South Korea due to the Korean war.

What about Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East where we have a good handful?

U.S. Army Tropic test center in Panama. I would have assumed that maybe it was something post the 1990 Panama conflict, but it was built in 1962.

Or a Navy base in Keflavik Iceland and Rota Spain. The Air Force base in Incilik Turkey, or an AF base in Hungary (obviously built post Iron Curtain).

Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
Maybe Colombia but after that no point in looking elsewhere in S America.

Why would Colombia support our Iraqi Occupation?
 
L-188
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
U.S. Army Tropic test center in Panama. I would have assumed that maybe it was something post the 1990 Panama conflict, but it was built in 1962.

Actually most of the facilities that where in Panama date from the canal building days in the early part of the last century. You have to remember that was US run for most of it's life.....the President Peanut gave it away.

Most us facilites have been drawn down since we gave the canal to them. the test center is about all that is left down there.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
What about Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East where we have a good handful?

1st gulf war......prior to that nobody gave us the time of day due our support of Israel.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 33):
find it hard to believe that even 5% of the rest of the world would support our illegal invasion and occupation.

What was illegal about it? The Security Council past 17 resolutions prior to the invasion. Each one threatening force if Saddam did not come clean. No less that Hillary Clinton said that until Saddam Hussien came clean the threat and use of force was legal and justified. I'd say the US has the weight of 17 UN resolutions to back up the invasion. So 1) It was NOT illegal. YOu can stop with that BS line of reasoning, 2) The world body (the UN) passed those resolutions. That's alot different than the way Falcon84 wants you to remember it.

If the UN is going to enforce it's own resolutions why bother with it.
 
baroque
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
Maybe Colombia but after that no point in looking elsewhere in S America.

Why would Colombia support our Iraqi Occupation?

Short answer "blessed if I know" but I think I saw it on the + side in a survey that NOW I cannot find. I think the explanation was the effects of the FDAs "investments" to stop cocaine. I know the others are crossed off the "quest list".
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 39):
What was illegal about it?

It did NOT have the approval of the U.N. , and was NOT co-ordinated with the U.N.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 39):
What was illegal about it? The Security Council past 17 resolutions prior to the invasion. Each one threatening force if Saddam did not come clean. No less that Hillary Clinton said that until Saddam Hussien came clean the threat and use of force was legal and justified. I'd say the US has the weight of 17 UN resolutions to back up the invasion. So 1) It was NOT illegal. YOu can stop with that BS line of reasoning, 2) The world body (the UN) passed those resolutions.

None of that has anything to do with the reasoning for why there never should have been an invasion. There shouldn't have been an invasion because there was no plan in place for dealing with the resultant power vacuum. There shouldn't have been an invasion because Saddam, regardless of his activities, didn't represent a direct threat to the national security or sovereign power of the US. There shouldn't have been an invasion because the mere act of toppling Saddam played right into Al Qaeda and Iran's hands. There shouldn't have been an invasion because 3,200 Americans and countless Iraqis have NEEDLESSLY died as a direct result. There shouldn't have been an invasion because going on several hundred BILLION dollars should ABSOLUTELY NOT BE SPENT on nation building for citizens of a country 5,000 miles from the people who PAID THE TAXES for it.

end rant. Now stop polluting the thread with your off-topic commentary, if you please.

[Edited 2007-01-31 14:57:09]
 
baroque
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
There shouldn't have been an invasion because going on several hundred BILLION dollars should ABSOLUTELY NOT BE SPENT on nation building for citizens of a country 5,000 miles from the people who PAID THE TAXES for it.

 checkmark 

WADR there is a bit missing from rant, "about $20 billion of Iraqi money should not have been squandered/lost/misappropriated by the Bremer administration."
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
It did NOT have the approval of the U.N. , and was NOT co-ordinated with the U.N.

17 UN resolutions would disagree with that POV.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
Now stop polluting the thread with your off-topic commentary, if you please.

I didn't pull this off topic. I merely wanted a source for a statistic that was obviously pulled out of thin air.

In fact it was that post I was asking the source on that was off topic. So don't bitch at me.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
95% of the world has always been against the invasion of Iraq!

Do you like cheese with your whine Aaron?
 
blrsea
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RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:36 am

 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: US Protests Japan Official's Criticism Of Bush

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 45):
Millions wasted in Iraq reconstruction aid

"With America's $21 billion rebuilding effort largely finished, it will be up to the international community and the Iraqis to step up its dollars to sustain reconstruction, Bowen said in the interview. "That will be a long-term and very expensive process," he said."

Who knows which $21 billion this refers to. However, it IS a close match to the $21 billion of Iraqi money that was shipped over as $100 bills - over 360 tonnes of it. And most of this has vanished. No accounting for it let alone proper accounting. And that was Iraq's not the US money. Maybe another 21 bill of US money has vanished, we don't know.

It all makes the UN oil for food program look like an exercise out of Accounting 101.

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