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UALPHLCS
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Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:31 am

Has anyone noticed that despite the fact that US politics continued after the November election, a lot of stuff that bears comment on and a lot of discussion went on in the non-av forum, and yet Artiefufkin is nowhere to be found.

His profile says he came in, in May 2006 and his last post was November 11, 2006. Now I know he was suspended for a while, but still nothing after all this time even though his suspension is over. Coincidence that he signed up just in time for a big push toward election day in the US and has not been heard from since?

So I ask you all, could it be that some members WERE in fact working for political parties to disseminate their propaganda?

It was reported in the media that parties were using new tactics, especially on the internet to reach individuals.

It might have been on both sides, I don't know, this may in fact be a coincidence with Artie too...but it does seem a bit strange doesn't it?

I just wonder if this was a case were we all were taken in by a plant from a party. It is certainly a tactic I find distasteful for political parties of all stripes to use. I wonder if there is something that Airliners.net management could watch for in the future.

I mean people can't post promoting products for sale, while I think individuals have the right to express their political views on the forum, if they are working for a party to disseminate and promote that should fall into the same category.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
I just wonder if this was a case were we all were taken in by a plant from a party.

In order to have been "taken" by Artieflufkin we would have had to believed a single word he wrote.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
So I ask you all, could it be that some members WERE in fact working for political parties to disseminate their propaganda?

Possible? Yes, I think so. But if I had to put money down on it, I'd say it was most likely a current member with an "alter ego" just trying to stir the pot.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
In order to have been "taken" by Artieflufkin we would have had to believed a single word he wrote.

Well, I didn't believe what he said, but I believed HE believed it.

I would say I was taken by him in thinking he was just another user, expressing his own views.

Now I'm not sure that was the case.

That's what I mean by "taken".

[Edited 2007-03-05 18:40:16]
 
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n229nw
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:41 am

If that's true, he was clearly planted by the Republicans to make "democrats" look like a bunch of tin-foil-hat-wearing freaks!

PS: Speaking of tin-foil-hats, your whole theory about Artiefufkin being a political mole makes me think you might want to take yours off too...
 
Banco
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
I just wonder if this was a case were we all were taken in by a plant from a party.

On an international site?

Wouldn't it be of more benefit on an American one, and one where a substantial proportion of the membership is old enough to vote?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
On an international site?

The largest membership group on A.net are Americans.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
The largest membership group on A.net are Americans.

Oh, sure. It's just that if a party were to try something like this, surely there are other, better options to choose than this one.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
In order to have been "taken" by Artieflufkin we would have had to believed a single word he wrote.

 thumbsup 

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
Well, I didn't believe what he said, but I believed HE believed it.

And that is the scary part.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 4):
PS: Speaking of tin-foil-hats, your whole theory about Artiefufkin being a political mole makes me think you might want to take yours off too...

This isn't a conspiracy theory. It was reported in the mainstream media and on NPR that parties were using the internet to get the message out in unique ways.

Artie was very good at phrasing his message so he could back it up and make it hard to refute it.

Good enough for me to think he was coached. Coached to push buttons and get people angry. He wasn't a tin-foil hat wearing looney. I remember. He was just VERY passionate about staying on message.

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
On an international site?

Wouldn't it be of more benefit on an American one, and one where a substantial proportion of the membership is old enough to vote?

My answer to that is:

First Airliners.net is the BIGGEST site of it's kind, so sure why not. Even though it's an international site, even American based sites, due to the fact that the internet is what it is, isn't exclusive to Americans. Maybe Artie had an interest anyway an combined the two, he did make some comments on the Civ-Av forum. Additionally, given the way Bush is perceived in the world, he could expect some support from those outside the US.

Secondly, I don't think the stats will hold up that the substantial portion CAN'T vote. I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm sure there are enough Flyers, Hobbyists, and Airline workers to make it worth it. The tactic is to tailor the message to small demographics. That trend has been used for the past few elections and the groups being reached out to are getting smaller.

Lastly, ANCflyer, why would taking someone at face value in thier opinions be scary?

[Edited 2007-03-05 19:02:32]

[Edited 2007-03-05 19:03:18]
 
AirCop
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
yet Artiefufkin is nowhere to be found.

Maybe Homeland Security kidnapped him and he currently being held in Cuba?  conehead  Someone else that is MIA is Aerospace Fan, probably for other reason although.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Political Plants

Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:27 pm

I think this is something the webstie ought to address, if they have a rule about commercial trolling in the forums, then politcial trolling ought to be curtailed as well regardless of polictical affiliation.
 
checkraiser
Posts: 814
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:54 am

And how exaclty do you sniff out a political troll?

Will everybody (especially a newer member) be presumed a troll just for getting on their soapbox once in awhile?

If that's the case things will get boring here next fall.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 12):
And how exaclty do you sniff out a political troll?

Well first I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Second I'm still not convinced myself that the person mentioned IS a political troll, it's just suspicious.

The reasons are these:

The timing of his arrival and departure.

The lack of postings in other forums. Although he did post in Civ-Av he LIVED in Non-Av, no other posts in any other forum.

His absence despite his suspension being lifted.

The content of his posts, which were always highly inflammatory, and his rebuttals seemed coached.

The evidence that ONE particular person definately WAS a plant is weak. (mid confidence level to be funny in current events)

On the other hand I think it is something that Moderators ought to be aware MAY happen in the future. If we restrict commercial ads by users, political ads ought to be restricted as well, IMO. That is my real concern, not whether one person was or wasn't one in the past.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
So I ask you all, could it be that some members WERE in fact working for political parties to disseminate their propaganda?

The Democratic Party would have no interest in someone like ArtieFufkin sending out its message.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 4):
PS: Speaking of tin-foil-hats, your whole theory about Artiefufkin being a political mole makes me think you might want to take yours off too...

I agree there.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The Democratic Party would have no interest in someone like ArtieFufkin sending out its message.

Really?!

They seemed to glom onto nuts like Cindy Sheehan readily enough.

The Democrat Party always has room for party nut cases.

But this isn't about one person. Its about a potential problem that he "potentially" represents.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Now I know he was suspended for a while, but still nothing after all this time even though his suspension is over.

Maybe he decided not to come back due to the suspension?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 16):
Maybe he decided not to come back due to the suspension?

It's possible, yes. Which is why I don't say conclusively that any ONE person was a plant from any party.

But, taken all together it makes me think that this is not only possible but probable.

The greatest advertiseing is word of mouth.

Many Movies generate buzz on websites. Reports were many campaigns were generating buzz the same way.

I don't think we should be taken advantage of like that.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
So I ask you all, could it be that some members WERE in fact working for political parties to disseminate their propaganda?

Like yourself, ou812, aerospacefan, and others?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:19 am

Just because one writes what he thinks doesn't mean he is a party hack.

I've been here since 2001, written much more in Civ-Av than Non-Av, and written in every forum about something that interested me, because I worked for and was fascinated by the industry. All the people you mentioned also write outside of election season.

Big difference, between legitimate political discourse from me or those you mentioned and people like you or Falcon84 or N1120A, and someone who blows in for a few weeks stirs the pot creates some buzz then bails.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 15):
They seemed to glom onto nuts like Cindy Sheehan readily enough.

At least she has something to be upset about.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 15):
The Democrat Party always has room for party nut cases.

This coming from someone on the side of the party that nominated David Duke for political office and has both Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as prominant figures?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 19):
legitimate political discourse from me or those you mentioned

You think posts by ASF and OU812 qualify as legitimate political discourse? They are less legitimate than Little Blowhard Annie
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 19):
I've been here since 2001, written much more in Civ-Av than Non-Av, and written in every forum about something that interested me, because I worked for and was fascinated by the industry. All the people you mentioned also write outside of election season.

Sooo let me get this straight... you are saying that because you have contributed to this site in other manners it's IMPOSSIBLE that you are a party operative? Maybe you aren't, maybe the afromentioned aren't either; but this is the internet who the hell really knows? 3 people who are aviation nuts who HAPPEN to be operatives out of a group of 50,000 doesn't seem like a long reach to me.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):

Fine apparently you think it's OK to be manipulated by people pretending to be interested in this site for what it is. That's not surprising to me since you are the guy who are willing to be manipulated by mainstream media sources, it doesn't surprise me that you have no objection to other forms of manipulation.

It is a known technique from film studios to go on to movie websites and create buzz with a plant. It is not tin-foil hat crazy to think that that kind of marketing would make it's way to other sites.

I don't think it's right to create buzz for a movie, that way I certainly don't think it's right to create political buzz that way.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 21):
Sooo let me get this straight... you are saying that because you have contributed to this site in other manners it's IMPOSSIBLE that you are a party operative? Maybe you aren't, maybe the aforementioned aren't either; but this is the internet who the hell really knows? 3 people who are aviation nuts who HAPPEN to be operatives out of a group of 50,000 doesn't seem like a long reach to me.

What so the problem is too hard you don't want to try and solve it?

I agree Ted that a track record of posts is no guarantee. But that doesn't mean the problem isn't worth solving.

All I'm saying and I'll say it again, if movie studios are manipulating users on websites to generate buzz (Borat was mentioned as one of the movies where this technique was used) then it is certainly possible that it happened here. And there is some evidence that it might have happened.

So then the question becomes Do you want to be left vulnerable to that kind of manipulation? By N1220A's answers he says yes. If you don't, then how can Johan solve the problem? He already has one rule against Commerical posts. That seems to me a good place to start.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Political Plants

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
I mean people can't post promoting products for sale, while I think individuals have the right to express their political views on the forum, if they are working for a party to disseminate and promote that should fall into the same category.

Here you say people have the right to express their political views in this forum...

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 11):
I think this is something the webstie ought to address, if they have a rule about commercial trolling in the forums, then politcial trolling ought to be curtailed as well regardless of polictical affiliation.

Here you say expressing political views in this forum should be curtailed...

Which is it?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
So then the question becomes Do you want to be left vulnerable to that kind of manipulation?

Do you really think people are manipulated by what they read on here? Where do you want to draw the line? Should political donors be banned? Should candidates be banned? Should anybody that's a member of a political party be banned?

There is a BIG difference between commercial and political speech. You suggest the website "ought to address" this. What would you suggest? Maybe that all political speech be banned from the forum?

This is only my view, but if a person posts within the rules of the forum, leave them alone. You stated that Artie was suspended, so I can only guess that he broke the rules. The present system seems to be working....
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 23):

Your missing the point.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 19):
Big difference, between legitimate political discourse from me or those you mentioned and people like you or Falcon84 or N1120A, and someone who blows in for a few weeks stirs the pot creates some buzz then bails.

More to the point there is a huge difference between someone on our website stepping outside the normal airplane talk to talk about their opinions on other issues, and a Political Party sending a volunteer or possibly paid campaign staffer to insert a political message into the forum.

Granted it will be difficult to judge who is and who isn't but as I said if we have rules about commercial speech from a corporate hack we ought to have restrictions on political speech from a party hack. And we should figure this our soon before the next election cycle.

Political discussion here get heated enough amongst ourselves without having the parties sending in people to stir the pot.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
Do you want to be left vulnerable to that kind of manipulation?

Without baning politics from the site: How are you going to stop it?
Are you that hard up that you have to have your opinion "manipulated" by some tin hat wearing hack on a WEB SITE??

This site has seen it's share of tin hatters on both ends of the spectrum, just because some have come and gone @ convenient times doesn't mean anything more then what is absolute fact: when they started and stopped. Reading anything more into it is a waste of EVERYBODY's time.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):

I don't have the answer on how it could be done. I'm just raising the question.

If this is a non-issue then why the rule against commercial posts? Airliners.net says it's because they sell ads and that would circumvent a revenue stream. However, media outlets sell ad-time to campaigns (which is why campaigns have become so expensive) then why should campaign ads be exempt from the rule on the website?

As to your comment about manipulation, if it was done for Borat, and the studio that released Borat admitted they created buzz this way, why do you think that people are immune from manipulation on political issues?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 26):
why do you think that people are immune from manipulation on political issues?

 rotfl  I'm not saying anyone (including myself) is immune. What I'm saying is that everything posted here should be taken with and extraordinarily LARGE grain of salt.

As to 'ads' versus agent provocateurs the only diference is the ads make themselves known as such and f/c users are paying to avoid such things. The agent provocateurs might just short of obviously be schills for their beliefs, but proving that they are here only for political pourposes would take more resources then I know for a FACT Johan is willing to exert.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:14 am

Republican would be a prickly cactus.

Democrat would be a Venus fly trap.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
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RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 27):
The agent provocateurs might just short of obviously be schills for their beliefs, but proving that they are here only for political pourposes would take more resources then I know for a FACT Johan is willing to exert.

That's a shame.

However, that being the case I think it might be wise if the community policed itself for political shills come election season.

If I were a regular on some of the movie sites that get hit by studios manufacturing buzz for thier movies I'd be pretty pissed.

I think that this is a discusting tactic, we beat each other over the head enough witin the Airliners.net community, we don't need political shills stirring up the pot.

There ought to be soemthing we can do to shun them away.
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Artie was very good at phrasing his message so he could back it up and make it hard to refute it.

That's just it - he wasn't. While I consider myself an independent, in the last six-seven years I've found myself on the polar opposite of most of this administration's positions. But I can't think of a single posting of AFs that wasn't so out there as to not leave me laughing

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The Democratic Party would have no interest in someone like ArtieFufkin sending out its message.

Exactly - if anything Artie would have done damage to the Dem cause, as he would have driven away any moderates/undecideds by his sheer one-sided rantings. Pretty much the same as OU and similar do on the right - there such extreme examples of their position that you almost find yourself taking an opposite position just not to be associated with them.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 29):
However, that being the case I think it might be wise if the community policed itself for political shills come election season.

What's going to get done besides a few posts on whiners and a locked thread in site related?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Political Plants

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 31):

Good point. Sigh.

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