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UALPHLCS
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Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:33 pm

In the movie that made Michael Moore a house-hold name "Roger and Me" Moore is on a futile quest to interview the Chairman of GM Roger Smith. Apparently, however, Moore isn't one to let the truth get in the way of his agenda, acording to a new film about Moore he DID interview Roger Smith at length, but chose to leave the footage OUT of the film.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070312/D8NQB9600.html

Additionally, the documentary filmmakers were thrown out of Moore talks, and attempts to interview him were ignored.
 
deltagator
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:56 pm

First off, get your flame suit ready since you have dared attack the left's favorite filmmaker.

Second, it doesn't surprise me that he withheld stuff from his films. I don't believe I've ever seen a documentary that was showing both sides of the story. The whole point of a documentary is to get your viewpoint across and ignore arguments from the dissenting opinion. It won't surprise me if the folks who made this film have withheld things to make their story appear the way they want us to see it.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:57 pm

Que beating dead horse pictures.


Couldn't you come up with something more current UAL? Like the 101 'alleged' lies in Fahrenheit 9/11?

Don't you have some good rumors to spread about
Sicko (2007) (post-production)
or
The Great '04 Slacker Uprising (2007) (post-production) ?

You know, something from the last year or so?
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):

Not a problem I've been enjoying it lately. It's cold up here in the Hudson Highlands.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
The whole point of a documentary is to get your viewpoint across and ignore arguments from the dissenting opinion.

You know that, and I know that but some people (who are probably going to attack me in this thread) don't know that. Or at least don't care so long as Moore tells thier POV. Moore creates what is called propaganda. Oh but you musn't label it Propaganda, no not from an Oscar winner like Moore. However for the lefties, and some in here, propaganda is only produced by Nazi's, and Fox News Corp.

FYI Ted Before shooting off your mouth you might look to see that the movie "Manufacturing Dissent" comes out in 2007. Get a calender bud.

[Edited 2007-03-12 15:14:13]
 
RJdxer
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
You know, something from the last year or so?

Considering the premiere of their film was over the weekend, I think that qualifies as within the last year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070312/...en_mo/film_manufacturing_dissent_5

At their own premiere Saturday night,

Of course nothing in your post really has anything to do with the film, it's just  fluffy .

Moore was trying to make his bones as a doc maker and to include the sequence of him interviewing Smith would have taken away a lot of the punch of the film Makes you wander what other artistic liberties he has taken with his non fiction material. I give credit to Moore for coming up with a new an interesting way to present the documentary film, but I also give him criticism for not being honest about interviewing Smith and then basing the film as though he got ducked.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
The whole point of a documentary is to get your viewpoint across and ignore arguments from the dissenting opinion.

 redflag  Unless you are talking about Michael Moore, Al Gore, and a few others who have MANIPULATED the format. True Documentaries reveal nothing but the truth with absolute facts or depections of events as close to historically as possible without opinion. It is a sad commentary that the genre has been beaten like a red headed step child by people with an agenda, but that's free speech for you.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Moore isn't one to let the truth get in the way of his agenda

No surprises there Silly

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
Like the 101 'alleged' lies in Fahrenheit 9/11?

It's 59, and they are here  Smile:

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf
 
TedTAce
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
FYI Ted Before shooting off your mouth you might look to see that the movie "Manufacturing Dissent" comes out in 2007. Get a calender bud.

Umm this movie was ABOUT Michael Moore, not written, directed, or produced by him. So you need to get off your high horse because your original post (URL aside) was about:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
"Roger and Me"

 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
Considering the premiere of their film

Which I think you cited as not being the subject of the original post either.


UAL, I think you ought to temper your remmarks after all I did say:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
The whole point of a documentary is to get your viewpoint across and ignore arguments from the dissenting opinion.

Unless you are talking about Michael Moore, Al Gore, and a few others who have MANIPULATED the format.

While I enjoyed some of the real footage of W being the idiot he is in Farhenhype, I took the film for what it was worth, a Left wing nutjob's view on the war. If you wanted to talk about "Manufacturing Dissent" you should have brought it up by name in your post (instead of the URL) in the first place instead of taking a shot at a movie that has LONG outlived it's usefulness.

URL's are nice if they are titled as to their subject, but who has time to read all the URLS in eveyone's posts here?

[Edited 2007-03-12 16:02:47]
 
Pope
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):

First off, get your flame suit ready since you have dared attack the left's favorite filmmaker.

Not quite. The liberal flavor of the month is Al Gore (or maybe that was only until his personal hypocrisy was exposed).
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
So you need to get off your high horse because your original post (URL aside) was about:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
"Roger and Me"


Once again proving you don't read posts before reacting to them Ted.

Go back and read my original post again. I think you will find that in paragraph one I reference the new movie, true I don't use it's name. The name of the new movie wasn't the point. Nor was it that about the relevance of "Roger and Me." Then I posted a link to the article about the new movie. Then in paragraph two I talk about the roadblocks encountered by the filmmakers trying to get an interview with Moore. So the original post wasn't about "Roger and Me" now was it Ted?

Seems to me someone doesn't score very high on the reading comprehension part of the test.

The salient point was Moore's use of propaganda techniques being explored in the new film, and Moore's own actions that mirror those of his targets.

That you agree with my assessment about Moore in Reply 5 is all well and good, but it doesn't take away from the fact that your first reaction was to bash me.
 
LY744
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:33 pm

Who cares. Michael Moore = a fatter, hairier Ann Coulter.


LY744.
 
Arrow
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
True Documentaries reveal nothing but the truth with absolute facts or depections of events as close to historically as possible without opinion. It is a sad commentary that the genre has been beaten like a red headed step child by people with an agenda, but that's free speech for you.

Amen to that. There was a time when people knew better than to believe the kind of propaganda that Moore puts out on the left side of the spectrum and Coulter et al put out on the right. Unfortunately an honest "documentary" approach to these issues usually isn't outrageous enough to satisfy one or the other of those two political poles, and doesn't get noticed. We have only ourselves to blame for all this, as "shock and awe" has become an essential ingredient of most media outlets as they attempt to catch and retain readers/viewers etc.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 10):
Who cares. Michael Moore = a fatter, hairier Ann Coulter.

 checkmark 
 
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falstaff
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:38 am

I used to like Micheal Moore. Now I think he is just a leftest nut case. I used to love Roger and Me and The Big One, but now I can't stand the sight of that guy. Ever since Bowling for Columbine when I saw him twist the gun issue I have had a great deal of contempt for him. When I was young and dumb I thought he was great. He presents only what he wants to make him look great, even if the facts get in the way. What is worse many people take everything he has to say as fact. He is an entertainer he has to sell tickets to his films. He does what sells. The same way right wing talk radio hosts do.

I once had a Micheal Moore book/movie burning in my back yard it was great. We also burned signs for John Kerry. What a great night.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
The liberal flavor of the month is Al Gore

They do change their mind a lot.... What happend to the peace movement? No it seems to be the green movement.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 10):
Who cares. Michael Moore = a fatter, hairier Ann Coulter.

Ann Coulter is way better looking than that fat wind bag Moore.
 
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yowza
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:49 am

Michael Moore is an embarrassment to humanity and fat people everywhere. Make him go away.

YOWza
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 13):
I once had a Micheal Moore book/movie burning in my back yard it was great. We also burned signs for John Kerry. What a great night.

One of the most truly disturbing things I have read on this site. Ever heard of Heinrich Heine? "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen." And to those who claim Moore is a propagandist, I'll agree with you, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. To quote Martin Luther King: "Those of us who love peace must organize as effectively as war hawks. As they spread the propaganda of war, we must spread the propaganda of peace." Don't condemn Moore for spreading propaganda unless you are also willing to condemn the neocons for spreading propaganda of their own.
 
LY744
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 13):
Ann Coulter is way better looking than that fat wind bag Moore.

More masculine too.


LY744.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 17):
Don't condemn Moore for spreading propaganda unless you are also willing to condemn the neocons for spreading propaganda of their own.
Propaganda techniques are neutral.

Used by the whoever controls a printing press, or camera.

As someone who has done extensive comparative studies of Nazi, Stalinist USSR and American propaganda of World War II, I can tell you they all use the same techniques. Mostly they tell one side of the story or if they portray the other side distort is beyond reality.

The problem is when a propaganda film is masquerading as something it isn't.

Michael Moore markets his films as documentaries. Documentaries are supposed to be factual and objective, even if they make someone think a different way about a topic, think "March of the Penguins."

I don't condemn propaganda. Advertisements, political ads and movies and books that persuade are forms of propaganda. Propaganda is NOT a dirty word.

I condemn those in Hollywood who gave Al Gore and Moore an Oscar for propaganda films, based purely ont he message they liked. Do you think Leni Riefenstalh or Sergei Eisenstien would win Ocsars for their films? They made films that influence film-makers today, but they were still propaganda films.

[Edited 2007-03-12 20:16:01]
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:25 am

Michael Moore is a very good spin-doctor. Much like a lot of others in the opposite direction. It is just of matter of how much you are willing to listen and how far you take the info.

As for his tactics used against him, why the hell not. Fair game is fair game. When you are in the public eye, you are subject to it all. Again, all is fair in love and war.
 
PSA53
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 19):
Michael Moore markets his films as documentaries. Documentaries are supposed to be factual and objective, even if they make someone think a different way about a topic, think "March of the Penguins."

Good point.Documentaries are "suppose" to.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 19):
I condemn those in Hollywood who gave Al Gore and Moore an Oscar for propaganda films, based purely ont he message they liked. Do you think Leni Riefenstalh or Sergei Eisenstien would win Ocsars for their films? They made films that influence film-makers today, but they were still propaganda films.

Moore and Oliver Stone are Hollywood most dangerous people,IMO.Their just in the same class as any shortwave government owned propaganda station who skimp the facts to meet their own grand design.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 18):
Good point.Documentaries are "suppose" to.

Which is why I referenced "March of the Penguins." Great Film. Will it influence people to save their habitat, sure. Did it beat you over the head with any message one way or another?

Documentaries are just that. When they begin to do anything other than document what happened, Michael Moore, Al Gore, Morgan Spurlock, and start preaching, they cease to be documentaries and become propaganda.

And the Academy Award for lifetime achievement in Propaganda the Nominees are:

Leni Reifenstahl
Michael Moore
Joseph Goebbles (producer)
Al Gore
Stalin (producer)
 
jaysit
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:19 am

I thought Michael Moore had been eaten alive by Al Gore.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
I thought Michael Moore had been eaten alive by Al Gore.

Didn't Al Gore invent Michael Moore?
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
I thought Michael Moore had been eaten alive by Al Gore.

It would explain Al Gore's weight gain on display at the Oscars. Here I thought that was just Al Gore's head swelling at all the fawning attention.
 
stlgph
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:33 am

Of course the word "allegedly" comes to mind here.

But a dictionary and reasoning is beyond many of you.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):
But a dictionary and reasoning is beyond many of you.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes

Quote:
Steve McCroskey: [to Mrs. Oveur] Now your husband and the others are alive, but unconscious.
Johnny: Just like Gerald Ford.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 17):
Michael Moore is a very good spin-doctor. Much like a lot of others in the opposite direction. It is just of matter of how much you are willing to listen and how far you take the info.

I would love to be a political talk show host, on either side of the table. I could spout off a bunch of nonsense and have people hang on my every word or complain about me. What a great job.

One thing that always gets me is that people like Micheal Moore and Al Gore are always talking about how the media leans to the right and doesn't present them fairly. Guys like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh say the media leans to the left and doesn't treat them fairly. Are they both right or are they both wrong? I think extremism in any direction is destructive.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 25):
One thing that always gets me is that people like Micheal Moore and Al Gore are always talking about how the media leans to the right and doesn't present them fairly. Guys like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh say the media leans to the left and doesn't treat them fairly. Are they both right or are they both wrong?

IMO the newspapers and TV media and film in the US are dominated by people who describe themselves as moderate but vote overwhelmingly Democrat. What does that tell you?

They claim (Dan Rather is famous for this claim) of being objective and unbiased. This is an exercise in futility. It's a pipe dream. they lie to themselves so often they believe it.

Now I'm not opposed to reporting from a particular point of view. Just don't lie to me and tell me your an objective journalist.

As someone who has read alot of Civil War era newspapers, I can tell you that at not time in our previous history was the press objective. They were extremely partisan, often hilariously so. However, they were HONEST about it. A Democrat in 1862 could pick up the NYTimes (just as today) and see an article attacking Republican politicians. A Republican could pick up the NY Tribune however and see Democrats lambasted.

As a historian this kind of reporting is gold.

Today the only people who HONESTLY report from a POV are Rush Limbaugh, the Air America crowd, Sean Hannity, and a few others. Interesting that RADIO is the only place where the broadcaster is honest enough to tell you his perspective.

On the other hand, Michael Moore is now KNOWN to be a leftie, but he didn't break onto the scene that way. He was selling his honesty. TV and newspaper people constantly say they are objective. When is the last time the NY Times editorial board endorsed a Republican for president? The most conservative board in print media is the Wall Street Journal.

News maybe heading back in the direction of the old pamphlets and newspapers with the advent of the internet and blogs. It is a welcome change in my opinion. It's good to see old liberal dinosaurs like Dan Rather unable to understand the change and how political media is returning back to its roots, on the internet.
 
stlgph
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 26):
Today the only people who HONESTLY report from a POV are Rush Limbaugh, the Air America crowd, Sean Hannity, and a few others.

commentary is not reporting.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 26):
When is the last time the NY Times editorial board endorsed a Republican for president?

you ... a self described historian not familiar with cosmopolitanism. great.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 27):
you ... a self described historian not familiar with cosmopolitanism

I don't self describe. I have a degree and I work in the field and it is in my title.

What has that got to do with the issue I raised, BTW.

I said I'm perfectly fine with having the members of the media stop pretending to strive for an unreachable goal. Real balance comes from more than one source espousing on a particular subject.

I don;t do historical research based on one source. If I have 6 sources that's a little light. If there is one thing I've learned being a historian is that no one source is definitive all sources have their biases and points of view. I draw my conclusions from a variety of sources.

However, the media today is dominated by people claiming that they are objective. A state that is impossible to be. So lets dispense with the BS and go back to the days when the NYTimes was a Democrat paper and the NYTirbune was a Republican paper and reported on the issues from their perspective and at least the readers would KNOW that there was bias rather that pretending there isn't.
 
Arrow
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 28):
However, the media today is dominated by people claiming that they are objective. A state that is impossible to be. So lets dispense with the BS and go back to the days when the NYTimes was a Democrat paper and the NYTirbune was a Republican paper and reported on the issues from their perspective and at least the readers would KNOW that there was bias rather that pretending there isn't.

You're right to a point. Complete objectivity is unattainable for reporters, and for historians. An individual's education, background and upbringing, as well as a wide variety of cultural factors, will make total objectivity impossible to achieve.

But a professional, fair-minded journalist can get very close to that and write a story that at least presents the facts as objectively as possible within the constraints of a media environment that, unlike academic pursuits, doesn't provide the luxury of checking everything out with six or more sources. Contrary to popular opinion, there are still some out there that do that, although I concede there are also lots of reporters with agendas.

I don't think public discourse would be improved by a return to the days when major newspapers were clearly and unashamedly aligned with political parties. 100 years ago that was called yellow journalism and a war or two (like the Spanish-American war) were launched because of it. You can make a case that Fox News et al have successfully revived that model.

Yes, you can see the bias and reject or accept it on that basis, But wouldn't it be better if they tried to chart a middle course? I often felt, in my many years covering issues with two opposing sides, that I'd done a good job if both sides were angry at me.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:59 am

I hope they issue moist towelettes and Kleenex as part of the admission price to the theaters. There are gonna be a lotta guys having a wank over this one, for sure. Perhaps there's a side market in "Michael Moore Cum Socks".  stirthepot 
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 29):
But a professional, fair-minded journalist can get very close to that and write a story that at least presents the facts as objectively as possible within the constraints of a media environment that, unlike academic pursuits, doesn't provide the luxury of checking everything out with six or more sources.

When journalism students are asked why they chose journalism, survey after survey shows the number one answer is "To help change the world." That ought to tell you that even when being taught to be fair-minded and objective they aren't. I'm not saying that journalists need to check with 6 sources, I'm saying news consumers, US, ought to have 6 or more sources.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 29):
You can make a case that Fox News et al have successfully revived that model.

I disagree on this point...not that Fox isn't part of the revival, but that the revival started in radio, and continued and exploded on the internet. TV is a late comer with only Fox, following the trend.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 29):
I don't think public discourse would be improved by a return to the days when major newspapers were clearly and unashamedly aligned with political parties. 100 years ago that was called yellow journalism and a war or two (like the Spanish-American war) were launched because of it.

I think this is a mis-reading of history. Look at the newspapers of the Revolutionary War Era, and up to the 1870s. The "Yellow journalism" your criticizing was started by Hearst and Pulitzer and a few others. Men who are called the fathers of MODERN Journalism. THAT is a crucial point not to forget. The current media crowd has their historical roots in the manipulation of the news.

When it was truly balanced before then the papers had strong critics on the opposite end of the spectrum. There was a checks and balances system for the "Fourth estate" that is sorely lacking in today's mass media.
 
dl021
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:23 am

I thought the purpose of a documentary was to document the truth. Editorial is about your viewpoint.
 
Arrow
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
When journalism students are asked why they chose journalism, survey after survey shows the number one answer is "To help change the world."

That shouldn't surprise you. No one goes into journalism to defend and preserve the status quo and all its alleged inequities. Every reporter likes to think he/she can expose corruption and better the world by doing it. The phrase is "comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable." Sometimes they do so honourably, and sometimes they let their biases run amok. You can make the same statement about every politician of any stripe about why they want to run for office.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
The current media crowd has their historical roots in the manipulation of the news.

As a member of "the current media crowd," I can assure you the current media crowd has its roots in Watergate, which is far from manipulation.
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:26 am

Don't forget, Michael Moore got to sit at the front table next to Jimmy Carter at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. They, the democrats, think he is a model Democrat. I guess for 2008, he'll be sitting next to Al Gore. That would be fitting...

Two fictional film makers listening to Democrats give fictional speeches, as the drive-by media give praise to both of them for their efforts to bring the real issues to Americans!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 34):
Two fictional film makers listening to Democrats give fictional speeches, as the drive-by media give praise to both of them for their efforts to bring the real issues to Americans!

Oh come now, you and I both know they'll be yacking about Ann Coulter! She's not fictional ... is she?  silly 
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 33):
As a member of "the current media crowd," I can assure you the current media crowd has its roots in Watergate, which is far from manipulation.

The current media environment is based on Watergate. Especially the willingness the cut your mothers throat for the chance to bag a politician.

However, I was speaking more historically than that.

In my Journalism classes, when I wanted to be a radio and television reporter and wrote news for my local talk station, I remember Pulitzer being called the father of modern journalism.

You yourself remembered the Yellow journalism of the late 1800 early 1900s. Pulitzer was a master. In fact the Pulitzer Prize was in response to the muckraker charge level against him and others.

Modern Journalism has its roots in the Yellow Journalism of the 19th century.

Internet Journalism is a form closer to the original news and opinion papers of the 18th century, when reporter, writer, editor, publisher, and paperboy where frequently the same man.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 33):
That shouldn't surprise you. No one goes into journalism to defend and preserve the status quo and all its alleged inequities. Every reporter likes to think he/she can expose corruption and better the world by doing it. The phrase is "comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable." Sometimes they do so honourably, and sometimes they let their biases run amok. You can make the same statement about every politician of any stripe about why they want to run for office.

First off it doesn't surprise me. In fact that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem isn't that they have biases, it's that they DENY having biases. To this day Dan Rather thinks he is an unbiased reporter of the news. He stands by his report even though it was based on forged documents. The other TV media smelled blood in the water thinking it was Bush they were going to get. (a la Watergate) The responsibility of exposing those documents fell to the internet journalists. Suddenly the blood in the water TV smelled was Rather's. This is a great example of what doesn't work about the media and what is changing.

Rather is a dinosaur.

Secondly, we expect politicians to have biases. In fact we elect them based on their positions on issues, where they stand. They HAVE to have biases to govern.

Journalists claim that they divorce their biases from their work. I've said that's false, and even you agreed sometimes they let their biases run amok. In the days before Yellow Journalism ushered in the Modern era, reporters, editors and newspapers didn't HAVE to worry about that, and the reader knew what kind of point of view he was going to get from a particular paper.

As for Documentary films (I had to remind myself even in my own thread) Michael Moore has exposed himself to the public as a propagandist when he made Fahrenheit 9/11. The pity of it was Hollywood chose to honor him not for his film's merits, but simply for it's message. Just as they honored Gore this year.

They both won Oscars for telling Hollywood what they wanted to hear.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 36):
To this day Dan Rather thinks he is an unbiased reporter of the news. He stands by his report even though it was based on forged documents.

I agree with you on this one, and I almost cited it myself. It's one of the best examples of the "run amok" phrase I used. And the media (in this country too) is far too reluctant to own up to its mistakes (even the honest ones) and the more troubling "bias" transgressions that the Rather incident represents. I harp on this stuff in my own classes, and often use some spectacular libel judgments (Canadian) to illustrate the bloody-mindedness prevalent in a lot of the major media outlets (the CBC being the most flagrant on this side of the border).

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 36):
Journalists claim that they divorce their biases from their work. I've said that's false, and even you agreed sometimes they let their biases run amok.

My problem is you are painting them all with the same brush. I concede that there are high profile transgressors out there, but there are plenty of conscientious journalists all over the world who are just trying to tell an honest, fair and unbiased story. Most of what you know about daily events comes from these people, and they often risk their lives to tell the stories (and not just in third world places). You rarely ever hear about these people, unless they have the misfortune to get their heads chopped off.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 36):
As for Documentary films (I had to remind myself even in my own thread) Michael Moore has exposed himself to the public as a propagandist when he made Fahrenheit 9/11.

I have very little use for Michael Moore, having watched that joke of a documentary called Fahrenheit 9/11. But I have very little use for the Ann Coulters and Bill O'Reillys of the world either. It troubles me that these people are given such a prominent billing by the political spectrum that likes their message. Your argument seems to be that as long as their "biases" are clearly identified, that's a better way to go than to continue with the pretense that there can be objectvity in the media. I disagree with that, and believe that the answer is to clean up the media's act to get rid of, or at least consistently expose, the bad apples. Think about this: if we regress to that old Pulitzer/Hearst model, the average joe will read or watch only those folks he agrees with -- and will be hopelessly misinformed as a result. Not everyone has the dedication to rooting out the truth that historians exhibit -- and they aren't perfect either, right?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 37):
Think about this: if we regress to that old Pulitzer/Hearst model, the average joe will read or watch only those folks he agrees with -- and will be hopelessly misinformed as a result.

I think you misunderstand my point. I am no fan of the Yellow Journalism of Pulitzer's days. I look back to earlier in the 19th century. When there were abolitionist newspapers and Newspapers whose editorial boards were affiliated with a political party. But the public knew that and the expectation was that a view point would be expressed in that paper in that way.

The internet is the last best hope of returning to those days.

Europe to the best of my knowledge still has this model to some extent. You know what your going to get from Le Monde for example and they don't pretend to be objective.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 37):
I concede that there are high profile transgressors out there, but there are plenty of conscientious journalists all over the world who are just trying to tell an honest, fair and unbiased story.

Not just high profile. Remember the photographer who doctored photos for Reuters? But yes there are some who try to live up to the ideal but the ideal is impossible to live up to. So why not just be honest with the readers and say you have biases and we can have MORE media outlets for differing viewpoints.

The Naysayers keep holding on and more and more people go to the internet for their news.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 15):
More masculine too.

Well I agree that Moore has bigger boobies.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11385
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
Perhaps there's a side market in "Michael Moore Cum Socks".

that's a good stocking stuffer idea

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 28):
I don't self describe. I have a degree and I work in the field and it is in my title.

What has that got to do with the issue I raised, BTW.

then you should be familiar with cosmopolitanism and commentary then.

apparently you aren't. don't hand out those business cards so fast.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Michael Moore's Tactics Used Against Him

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 27):
a self described historian not familiar with cosmopolitanism

I fail to see how it applies to the editorial board of the NYTimes.

I know what Commentary is. I know what reporting is. I can tell you there is enough commentary going on in the evening news, (regional and national) to qualifiy it with Hannity and AirAmerica.

I also know that to qualify as a regional newcaster you have to know how to look good and read.

Make sure you keep your hair styled, while the rest of us actually do something.

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