disruptivehair
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UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:58 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6464783.stm

Normally I don't like anything Grabby Gordo Brown does, but I agree with penalizing gas guzzlers. However, 400 GBP isn't enough. Should be ten times that, exceptions made for farming vehicles.

However, his tax increases are driving companies away from the UK and they're taking their jobs with them and they're being replaced with jobs with such pathetic salaries that the only people willing to fill them are illegals and Polish migrants. Ta Gordo!
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Thread starter):
Normally I don't like anything Grabby Gordo Brown does, but I agree with penalizing gas guzzlers. However, 400 GBP isn't enough. Should be ten times that, exceptions made for farming vehicles.

Did you really fall for this one? it's just another cash grab by the government, one that people are likely to accept. Will be some research of new propulsion systems founded by this tax? I don't think so. So it will disappear in the budget exactly like fuel taxes. Don't forget, with the heavily taxed fuel gas guzzlers are already hit hard, there is no need for a new special tax.special
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 1):

Did you really fall for this one? it's just another cash grab by the government, one that people are likely to accept. Will be some research of new propulsion systems founded by this tax? I don't think so. So it will disappear in the budget exactly like fuel taxes. Don't forget, with the heavily taxed fuel gas guzzlers are already hit hard, there is no need for a new special tax.special

Taxes/fees don't necessarily have to go towards a special purpose (you suggested researching new propulsion systems). Government economic policies are often used to change people's behavior. The intent here is to discourage people from buying less gas efficient vehicles.

And before blaming the government for manipulating people with tax changes, private companies do this all the time. For example, Microsoft charges people for support on older version of Windows. They have the option of providing the usual free support, but they chose to charge money because they're trying to increase costs so people will have an incentive to upgrade.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Thread starter):
Normally I don't like anything Grabby Gordo Brown does, but I agree with penalizing gas guzzlers. However, 400 GBP isn't enough. Should be ten times that, exceptions made for farming vehicles.

It's not only farming vehicles though (which incidentally run on ultra-cheap red Diesel), if you live out in the woolly wilds which make up some parts of Britain, you need a 4x4 to get around at all times of the year, however, if you live in Chelsea, then you don't. So just because the 4x4 has become a fashionable car to own by those who don't really need them, the ones who really do are now going to be burdened by greater taxes. Great, Labour never did understand the countryside.  Yeah sure


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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 2):
The intent here is to discourage people from buying less gas efficient vehicles.

C'mon, you can't be serious. How can 200 pounds a year difference in tax discourage somebody from buying a car that's already twice as expensive as a small car? Sorry, i just don't buy that.
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MDorBust
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:18 am

Fixing the worlds problems through government taxation...

Why don't you guys who support this garbage just go ahead and get it over with. Go ahead, give your entire income to the goverment. The world will be a better place then, won't it? Right?
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 4):

C'mon, you can't be serious. How can 200 pounds a year difference in tax discourage somebody from buying a car that's already twice as expensive as a small car? Sorry, i just don't buy that.

The government is not going to ban SUVs because some people do have a need for such large vehicles. So besides an outright ban, I think the tax is a good way of goading people into buy more fuel efficient vehicles. What else do you suggest to encourage higher fuel efficiency?
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:27 am

How about putting a cap on gas usage. only xx litres per week. That may force people to get more mileage out of each litre.
I hope we won't face such a situation in the near future.
 
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 4):
How can 200 pounds a year difference in tax discourage somebody from buying a car that's already twice as expensive as a small car? Sorry, i just don't buy that.

Exactly. The government are going to tax more highly cars that are generally speaking vastly more expensive in the first place. It's yet another example of grabbing money in the guise of being "green". And isn't it amazing how the first response is invariably a tax increase rather than rebates or incentives. Funny that...

The trouble is, it actually damages the argument in favour of genuinely changing people's behaviour. If the public just suspect they are being taken for a ride, they aren't going to buy into ideas that may well have some merit.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 1):
Did you really fall for this one? it's just another cash grab by the government, one that people are likely to accept. Will be some research of new propulsion systems founded by this tax? I don't think so. So it will disappear in the budget exactly like fuel taxes. Don't forget, with the heavily taxed fuel gas guzzlers are already hit hard, there is no need for a new special tax.special

Yes, I suppose I did. Oil is a finite resource and people should be encouraged to conserve it, and if encouragement doesn't work then they should be forced.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 7):
How about putting a cap on gas usage. only xx litres per week. That may force people to get more mileage out of each litre.
I hope we won't face such a situation in the near future.

We may in our lifetimes. There are already some cities where you cannot drive every day, though that's due more to congestion or pollution. They may bring that in in the event of a gas shortage.

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Exactly. The government are going to tax more highly cars that are generally speaking vastly more expensive in the first place. It's yet another example of grabbing money in the guise of being "green". And isn't it amazing how the first response is invariably a tax increase rather than rebates or incentives. Funny that...

The trouble is, it actually damages the argument in favour of genuinely changing people's behaviour. If the public just suspect they are being taken for a ride, they aren't going to buy into ideas that may well have some merit.

That's why it should be 10x higher. Make it hurt, I say. The vast majority of people in this country have no need for a gas-guzzling 4x4. The roads are perfectly suitable for much smaller cars.

And while we're at it cut down on those lorries. I lost count of how close many of them came to hitting us because they wanted to change lanes and they didn't bother to look before moving.
 
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 9):
Yes, I suppose I did. Oil is a finite resource and people should be encouraged to conserve it, and if encouragement doesn't work then they should be forced.

Given a geological timescale, no it isn't a finite resource.

Additionally, why conserve it? So we can have some to put in museums?

Isn't the whole point to get us to stop using oil in the first place thereby making conservation a mute point?

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 9):
And while we're at it cut down on those lorries.

A rather stupid democratic governor of Texas once tried to eliminate trucks from the state highways. Thankfully everyone else say the light of day and realized how crippling such a bad idea would be to the economy.
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max999
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):

Exactly. The government are going to tax more highly cars that are generally speaking vastly more expensive in the first place. It's yet another example of grabbing money in the guise of being "green". And isn't it amazing how the first response is invariably a tax increase rather than rebates or incentives. Funny that...

The trouble is, it actually damages the argument in favour of genuinely changing people's behaviour. If the public just suspect they are being taken for a ride, they aren't going to buy into ideas that may well have some merit.

In Hong Kong, car licensing fees are based on your car's engine size (measure based upon cylinder capacity). Bigger the engine, the higher the fees. Would this be a fair system in your view?

http://www.td.gov.hk/public_services/fees_and_charges/index.htm
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):

Given a geological timescale, no it isn't a finite resource.

Additionally, why conserve it? So we can have some to put in museums?

Isn't the whole point to get us to stop using oil in the first place thereby making conservation a mute point?

I think you'll find it is a finite resource. We may have already hit the peak of oil production; there is a good deal of evidence to suggest that we have. Supply will dwindle while demand will skyrocket. It isn't rocket science: we will run out, possibly within our lifetimes. We should conserve oil to make it last as long as it can so we have time to develop alternate sources of energy which we have not done yet.

Quote:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 9):
And while we're at it cut down on those lorries.

A rather stupid democratic governor of Texas once tried to eliminate trucks from the state highways. Thankfully everyone else say the light of day and realized how crippling such a bad idea would be to the economy.

This country has a comprehensive rail system and more freight should be moved by rail. I wish you could have seen how insane the drivers were...way worse than anything I've seen in Texas. I should note that almost all of them had foreign plates.
 
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 6):
What else do you suggest to encourage higher fuel efficiency?

Let's think about it. How about making the fixed cost's of ownership lower so people could afford to own more cars and use the right vehicle for the right mission?

As matter of fact, I have no real suggestion that would actually work. I guess if I would I wouldn't maintain gas chromatographs and develop new analytical methods for living.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 11):
Would this be a fair system in your view?

Depends what you mean by "fair". The whole 4x4 argument is grossly overstated. The idea that they're somehow single-handedly responsible for the end of the world is idiotic beyond belief. If the government really wanted to do something about climate change they'd make bigger efforts with the power stations. That's why I have such a jaundiced eye about measures like these, it's merely playing on prejudices and making a cash-grab at the same time. Same thing would apply if you changed it to engine size - there's nothing wrong with such an approach per se but to do so in such a piecemeal manner whilst ignoring far more important issues is mendacious and opportunistic. If it was genuinely about a concern for global warming then you'd also go after older cars, which are as damaging, if not more so than new, highly efficient engines. But of course that would be highly regressive and thus deeply unpopular. This idea on the other hand smacks of "tax the rich" which always goes down well in many circles.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):

Additionally, why conserve it? So we can have some to put in museums?

Isn't the whole point to get us to stop using oil in the first place thereby making conservation a mute point?

The pace of alternative energy research is painstakingly slow because we won't devote billions of dollars in research money till there's some major oil crisis.

Considering the slowness of research, we don't really know when an alternate energy source is going to be widely available. Could be 5 years, 10 years, or even 100 years. So if we use the logic that conservation is not necessary because oil will be replaced...then I can use the analogy that I can run my old car into the ground even though I don't know when I'm getting a new one. The worse I treat my old car, the higher my costs are going to be. This is the same situation with oil right now. There are costs associated with using oil and seeing there's no end in sight, we should minimize those costs.

And don't forget most of our oil is imported from some pretty unfriendly places. The less we depend on it, the better off our national security will be.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 12):
we will run out, possibly within our lifetimes.

If your lifetime is slightly longer then that of the planet, then you might run out of oil during your lifetime.... simply because there is no planet to produce oil anymore.

You need to understand how oil is created to understand the oil supply. The planet didn't come pre-made with X amount of oil on it. As long as there is biological life on the planet, oil will be produced. Currently we are outstripping the natural production of oil. This is different than running out of oil. It is quite common in the oil industry to find old wells have "regenerated" after not being used for a long time. We can not run out of oil, we can only out pace the supply.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 12):
We should conserve oil to make it last as long as it can so we have time to develop alternate sources of energy which we have not done yet.

These two items are not connected. Research into alternative fuels does not proceed in a manner dictated by the supply of oil. Unless there is a critical shortage of oil, which there is not, there is no reason to restrict the use of oil while alternative fuels are being developed.
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MDorBust
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 15):
The pace of alternative energy research is painstakingly slow because we won't devote billions of dollars in research money till there's some major oil crisis.

The pace is slow because there is currently no economic incentive for serious private development in the matter. Economics drives everything. Once a truly shortened oil supply causes pressure then there will be viable alternative energy technology produced. The means already exist, but there is currently no viable economic model worth restructuring a vast infrastructure for it's implementation.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 15):
And don't forget most of our oil is imported from some pretty unfriendly places. The less we depend on it, the better off our national security will be.

We could always authorize more domestic oil production. But then again, where would that put us. We might actually have to admit the US has oil and we have been held at the mercy of "unfriendly" foreign nations because we caved to ecoidiots who prevent us from using our own supplies.
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Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
The pace is slow because there is currently no economic incentive for serious private development in the matter. Economics drives everything.

Which is precisely why there was such a drive for fuel efficiency, and alternative sources of fuel in the early 1970s. Indeed, the lesson learnt by OPEC was that it was a disaster for them to squeeze the major western economies until they bled precisely because in the medium term it would force them to move away from their dependency on oil.
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max999
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 13):

Let's think about it. How about making the fixed cost's of ownership lower so people could afford to own more cars and use the right vehicle for the right mission?

As matter of fact, I have no real suggestion that would actually work. I guess if I would I wouldn't maintain gas chromatographs and develop new analytical methods for living.

I don't think lowering fixed cost of ownership so people could buy more cars to fit the right mission is going to help much. Fixed costs such as vehicle licensing fees are only a small part of total car ownership costs. The biggest cost of any car is the purchase price. Although driving appropriate cars for the right mission is great (small car for the daily commute, big car for going to IKEA), owning multiple cars would be prohibitively expensive for most people.

There are many ways of getting people to be more gas efficient, but we would need a lot more time to think about it. So I will leave it up to the energy experts and academics.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
The idea that they're somehow single-handedly responsible for the end of the world is idiotic beyond belief.

You're right, human beings probably aren't solely responsible for global warming, but why aggravate the problem and make it worse?

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
If the government really wanted to do something about climate change they'd make bigger efforts with the power stations.

Taxing cars does seem to be a piecemeal way of dealing with the problem, but governments also go after power plants by forcing them to install pollution control devices. There will always be costs associated with pollution and global warming and the costs must be shared by everybody.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 15):
If it was genuinely about a concern for global warming then you'd also go after older cars, which are as damaging, if not more so than new, highly efficient engines. But of course that would be highly regressive and thus deeply unpopular.

In the US, the average fuel economy has steadily gone down in the past two decades. So many newer engines are actually more inefficient. Higher fees for bigger engines are not taxing the rich, because anybody (rich or poor) can buy a fuel inefficient vehicle...the point is that bigger engines have a higher cost of pollution and the buyer should bear more of those costs.

I think taxing the rich is a comment more suited for income taxes.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:44 am

Sounds like the UK govenment is really going to stick it to those Rolls Royce drivers.  Yeah sure
Yep all 23 of them.

Sounds like feel good politics to me.
A lot of that going on here un the USA too.
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vc10
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:45 am

Can anyone tell me which does more harm to the world a gas guzzler that does say 6000 miles per year or a smaller car which does 12000 miles per year. Can any one tell me when a car becomes a gas guzzler as My Freelander diesel does 34 MPG [imp gal ] around locally and abut 38 MPG on a long run so is this a gas guzzler 4x4.

Divide and rule, at one time all cars payed the same road tax , then it seemed only fair to car different cars different rates and then he can pick on a small groups and charge them more . The only feeling for most people is relief that they were not hit so there will be no support for the small group. However once the precedent is set the government will nibble at each group, and will get around to everybody in the end .

littlevc10
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
You're right, human beings probably aren't solely responsible for global warming, but why aggravate the problem and make it worse?

I'm not talking about human impact generally, but the specific and apparent war on 4x4 vehicles that is currently in place.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
Taxing cars does seem to be a piecemeal way of dealing with the problem, but governments also go after power plants by forcing them to install pollution control devices. There will always be costs associated with pollution and global warming and the costs must be shared by everybody.

This thread is specifically about the UK, and the government's likely additional tax on cars they view as somehow unsavoury. The proportion of greenhouse gases produced by power stations here is vastly greater than that by all cars, whether a Land Rover or a Renault Clio, but there are no signs whatever of a structured approach to do something that would actually make a material difference. You can tax 4x4s as much as you like, and the actual good it will do is insignificant. That's why this is nothing more than a tax-grab.
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max999
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):

The pace is slow because there is currently no economic incentive for serious private development in the matter. Economics drives everything. Once a truly shortened oil supply causes pressure then there will be viable alternative energy technology produced. The means already exist, but there is currently no viable economic model worth restructuring a vast infrastructure for it's implementation.

Economics does drive a lot of things, but does it take into account that human beings are lazy? We tend to be reactive rather than being proactive. It wasn't till after 9/11 did we get serious about airport security. We didn't have any real economic incentive to push us to beef up airport security before 9/11, and look where that got us... Then we realized that having lax airport security can be very costly.

So we are lazy right now with alternative energy research... what major crisis do we have to wait for us to realize it's better to be proactive and start pumping a lot more money into research.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):

We could always authorize more domestic oil production. But then again, where would that put us. We might actually have to admit the US has oil and we have been held at the mercy of "unfriendly" foreign nations because we caved to ecoidiots who prevent us from using our own supplies.

Trying to lay blame of the lack of domestic oil production solely on environmentalists is silly. The reason we don't have more domestic oil production are the NIMBYs. Remember how Bush signed a law which prohibited oil fields off the coast of Florida? People of all political leanings in Florida were against the oil fields. Also, opening more of Alaska to oil drilling will not come close replacing the amount of oil we import. If the US were to depend only on domestic oil, we would have some many oil fields practically everywhere...the amount of oil the US uses everyday is incredible.
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MDorBust
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 23):
Then we realized that having lax airport security can be very costly.

That's not even a relevant comparision.

But on a side topic, how much has our post 9/11 airport security panic really helped?

Quoting Max999 (Reply 23):
So we are lazy right now with alternative energy research...

You do realize that the majority of the alternative energy research for motor vehicles is done with already and just isn't being implemented right?

Want a 100% ethanol/electric hybrid car? Perfectly achievable using off the shelf modern technology. No problem. Just give economic incentive to produce it. Oh, and don't complain to us when the economies of several developing nations implode when the US floods the market with surplus corn.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 23):
The reason we don't have more domestic oil production are the NIMBYs.

Really?

Whose backyard is ANWR

Quoting Max999 (Reply 23):
If the US were to depend only on domestic oil, we would have some many oil fields practically everywhere..

Which would be a problem if oil wells still looked like the giant wooden contraptions from the '20s, which they don't. Most people these days wouldn't recognize modern oil and gas wells unless they were specifically pointed out to them.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
Fixed costs such as vehicle licensing fees are only a small part of total car ownership costs. The biggest cost of any car is the purchase price.

Not really. If you buy used, the largest cost (at least here in Ontario) is the insurance.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
Although driving appropriate cars for the right mission is great (small car for the daily commute, big car for going to IKEA), owning multiple cars would be prohibitively expensive for most people.

Got caught on this one. We sold the old and gas guzzling minivan and bought a midsize car for my wife instead. And now I have a huge problem whenever I need to do some work around the house. So the minivan is on again, this time as a 3-rd vehicle. It won't be driven too often, so again the largest expense will be the insurance.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 22):

This thread is specifically about the UK, and the government's likely additional tax on cars they view as somehow unsavoury. The proportion of greenhouse gases produced by power stations here is vastly greater than that by all cars, whether a Land Rover or a Renault Clio, but there are no signs whatever of a structured approach to do something that would actually make a material difference. You can tax 4x4s as much as you like, and the actual good it will do is insignificant. That's why this is nothing more than a tax-grab.

How do you propose the government take action which would make a material difference in improving gas efficiency?
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Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 26):
How do you propose the government take action which would make a material difference in improving gas efficiency?

When you say gas I assume you mean petrol, not gas production and power plants?

The point is that in terms of the difference it would make, none of these changes, or any others long the same lines that they propose will make more than a tiny difference at the margins. That's not to say that you should ignore it, but forgive my complete cynicism when I see them doing absolutely bugger all about the areas where they could make a difference, and hammering people for personal tax where they don't.

I don't have the answers, I don't pretend to have the answers, but I do greatly object to the evil, money grabbing bastards dressing up another hike in taxation by pretending it's somehow green.
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David L
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 21):
Can anyone tell me which does more harm to the world a gas guzzler that does say 6000 miles per year or a smaller car which does 12000 miles per year.

Exactly. I don't know off-hand whether or not I'll be affected but most weeks I only drive about 5 miles. I probably drive less than 1000 miles a year. How on this Armageddon-bound earth (  sarcastic  ) is that worse for the environment than someone doing ten times the mileage in a car that's twice as efficient?

Quoting Max999 (Reply 2):
The intent here is to discourage people from buying less gas efficient vehicles.

Why? Shouldn't they be taxing fuel usage?

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
This idea on the other hand smacks of "tax the rich" which always goes down well in many circles.

Bingo!
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting David L (Reply 28):
Shouldn't they be taxing fuel usage?

As a matter of fact, they already do. Big time. If you go to any Petro-Canada station, there is a sticker on every pump with a graph showing the amount of taxes included. Right now it's 38 % in Ontario. Litre of gas comes to $ 1.02 CDN today. There is no reason for the UK refineries have significantly higher costs than their Canadian counterparts. Yet the fuel price is double in the UK. So I guess the largest portion of the price difference is tax.
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
There is no reason for the UK refineries have significantly higher costs than their Canadian counterparts. Yet the fuel price is double in the UK. So I guess the largest portion of the price difference is tax.

UK fuel is actually extremely cheap before the tax gets added on to it. Cheapest in Europe, so the oil companies say...
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
You need to understand how oil is created to understand the oil supply. The planet didn't come pre-made with X amount of oil on it. As long as there is biological life on the planet, oil will be produced. Currently we are outstripping the natural production of oil. This is different than running out of oil. It is quite common in the oil industry to find old wells have "regenerated" after not being used for a long time. We can not run out of oil, we can only out pace the supply.

Oh dear, a refiller theorist. I'm sorry, but it is not geologically possible for wells to regenerate oil. The only way a well can re-fill after it has been pumped dry is if there is a fracture of some sort in the earth itself, which allows oil to seep in from elsewhere.

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 21):
Can any one tell me when a car becomes a gas guzzler as My Freelander diesel does 34 MPG [imp gal ] around locally and abut 38 MPG on a long run so is this a gas guzzler 4x4.

Seeing as a diesel car can get 2x the mileage per gallon as your Freelander, I would say it's a gas guzzler. You can't compare diesel mileage to petrol mileage.

Quoting Banco (Reply 30):
UK fuel is actually extremely cheap before the tax gets added on to it. Cheapest in Europe, so the oil companies say...

Once you add on the tax a gallon of fuel in the UK costs nearly 3x what it costs in my home state (TX). Last time I did the calculations a US gallon of gas here cost about $6.50; it has been over $7 at some points due to higher costs and exchange rates.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 31):
Once you add on the tax a gallon of fuel in the UK costs nearly 3x what it costs in my home state

Just as a matter of interest, have you taken into account the difference between the UK gallon and the US gallon? Be interested to know exactly what the comparison in price is.
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Just as a matter of interest, have you taken into account the difference between the UK gallon and the US gallon? Be interested to know exactly what the comparison in price is.

A UK gallon is 1.2 times the size of a US gallon. I only do these calculations with US gallons because the only people seemingly interested in what a gallon of gasoline costs here are Americans.

The price of a UK gallon of gasoline in US dollars would be higher than the price of a US gallon, simply because a UK gallon is bigger. This is why some cars in the UK appear to get better mileage than their American counterparts. When you do the calculations they're actually the same; but since a UK gallon is bigger it naturally follows that you can get more miles out of it.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 33):
the only people seemingly interested in what a gallon of gasoline costs here are Americans.

It's an interesting one that you know. People will say that we work out fuel cost by litres, but we don't. We do it by money. No-one says "I put 40 litres in", they say I put £40 worth in! Hence, I suppose, the reason why we still work in mpg, not L/100km.

So are you saying that your original calculations factored the difference in? OK, thanks.
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
It's an interesting one that you know. People will say that we work out fuel cost by litres, but we don't. We do it by money. No-one says "I put 40 litres in", they say I put £40 worth in! Hence, I suppose, the reason why we still work in mpg, not L/100km.

So are you saying that your original calculations factored the difference in? OK, thanks.

I calculate it by first figuring out how many liters are in a US gallon. It's 3.78, I think; or 3.7 something. I always check the figure. Then I multiply the price of one liter of gas by 3.78, and that is the price per US gallon in pounds. I then look up the market exchange rate for the day and use that to calculate the cost in dollars. It fluctuates daily, obviously. I don't bother with UK gallons because we don't use them; only you lot do. (And we're the only ones using US gallons.)

And you're right, people here will say stuff like "I got 300 miles out of 30 quid of petrol" or "I get 400 miles per tank" but when you ask them how many gallons/liters their tank holds, they have no idea. (Ours holds 40 liters.) You couldn't work it out in L/100km anyway, since while you use liters to measure gasoline, you don't use km to measure distances. I do find it amusing that the British still measure fuel efficiency in miles per gallon even though most people don't know how many liters there are in a gallon in the first place. (I'm not being harsh; most Americans don't know either...but then again we don't use liters except for bottles of soda.)
 
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
I do greatly object to the evil, money grabbing bastards dressing up another hike in taxation by pretending it's somehow green.

Yes and sadly this is only going to get worse. It's easy tax money on all sorts of things for "the good of the environment."


Where is the incentive or forceful measures on the manufacturers to produce more fuel efficient cars. These vehicles are bought because the manufacturers sell them to us. If the government really cared about the effect of these vehicles they should be looking to ban them or force in sales quotas where a manufacturer has to sell cars that meet certain fuel consumption or emissions targets. Now that really might have an impact as the manufacturers would be forced to invest in making their cars greener.

Now I'm not advocating that for a minute - I'm a self confesed petrolhead and would hate to see some glorious sports cars disappear (I have no love for 4x4s mind). But if the government was truly acting in green interests than that is what it could do - but no of course not - that wouldn't raise them lots of cash - why not tell us that we are all such bad people and that it is OUR fault that the planet is in such a state and then tax us to the hilt  Yeah sure
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Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 35):
though most people don't know how many liters there are in a gallon in the first place

4.55  Wink  tongue 
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 37):
4.55

Doesn't take long to look it up.  duck 
 
JJJ
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
Although driving appropriate cars for the right mission is great (small car for the daily commute, big car for going to IKEA), owning multiple cars would be prohibitively expensive for most people

I already own two cars. A small hatchback for the daily conmute and an even smaller convertible for the weekends/holidays and whenever I feel like taking the back road to work.

Whenever I need to move furniture or heavy stuff in, I just hire a van or truck for the day. In the end it works out at just 30-40 euro a day which is peanuts compared to the difference in running costs if I owned a bigger vehicle. If I need to move people around, I just borrow a friend of mine's MPV, who is more than happy to trade it for my convertible for a couple of days.

The thing is, most cars mostly haul empty space for most of their lives. I don't think there is a single 'right' way to tackle this, but something should be done.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 38):
Doesn't take long to look it up.

Doesn't it?  Confused  angel   Wink
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David L
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
As a matter of fact, they already do.

How does that justify the increased tax on the purchase of "gas-guzzling" cars, regardless of how much or little fuel they're actually going to burn in a year?

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 31):
Seeing as a diesel car can get 2x the mileage per gallon as your Freelander, I would say it's a gas guzzler. You can't compare diesel mileage to petrol mileage.

But you can compare consumption. If a "gas-guzzler" burns 1 gallon a week, why should it's owner be taxed more "for environmental reasons" than the owner of an "eco-friendly" car that burns ten times that? I think Vc10's point was clear.

Sorry. but the whole thinks looks like another attack on money, in the poor pretence of being a "planet saver".
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
But you can compare consumption. If a "gas-guzzler" burns 1 gallon a week, why should it's owner be taxed more "for environmental reasons" than the owner of an "eco-friendly" car that burns ten times that? I think Vc10's point was clear.

Sorry. but the whole thinks looks like another attack on money, in the poor pretence of being a "planet saver".

Not really. Chelsea tractor drivers should and must be punished. Very very few people actually NEED a 4x4. I don't buy the "I have a big family" argument, and I definitely don't buy the "I might go antiquing" blather. There are vehicles that will seat 6 comfortably that get better mileage than a 4x4, which doesn't actually have that much room anyway.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 42):
Not really. Chelsea tractor drivers should and must be punished. Very very few people actually NEED a 4x4.

Why? There are lots of things in your life you don't need either. Do you need a television? DVD? Stereo? Dishwasher? You're just being vindictive because you don't like 4x4s. That's a really poor argument.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
How does that justify the increased tax on the purchase of "gas-guzzling" cars, regardless of how much or little fuel they're actually going to burn in a year?

It doesn't justify it at all. Please read all my posts and you'll see what's my opinion about this tax. IMO the fuel is taxed heavily enough, so anybody who insist on driving a gas guzzler gets hit hard. There is no need for additional taxes.
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
Why? There are lots of things in your life you don't need either. Do you need a television? DVD? Stereo? Dishwasher? You're just being vindictive because you don't like 4x4s. That's a really poor argument.

I don't have a big stereo, and my dishwasher is so efficient it uses less water/leccy than doing the washing up by hand would. Mm-hmm. And no, you don't need a TV...but you should get one that is as efficient as possible if you must have one. We did.

A 4x4 is a ridiculously wasteful death trap, and I stand by all previous statements that the drivers are wasteful and deserve to be punished financially. You will not convince me otherwise, so don't waste your time trying. The only way I MIGHT change my mind is if 4x4s were as fuel-efficient as a Prius, but even then they're still dangerous due to their weight and center of gravity.

So don't waste your time.
 
David L
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 42):
Chelsea tractor drivers should and must be punished.

Even those who burn less fuel than someone driving a snaller car? The "punishment" should fit the "crime". The alleged crime is burning fuel - the only way to "punish" that is to tax fuel usage. According to your argument, someone who buys a car that only does 2 mpg should be "punished"... even if they never drive it.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 45):
You will not convince me otherwise, so don't waste your time trying

I'm not trying to convince you about anything. I'm just highlighting your ignorance and prejudice. Fine, you don't like 4x4s, good for you. You've not advanced the slightest evidence for your wish to "punish" owners beyond your own illiberal wishes.
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 47):
I'm not trying to convince you about anything. I'm just highlighting your ignorance and prejudice. Fine, you don't like 4x4s, good for you. You've not advanced the slightest evidence for your wish to "punish" owners beyond your own illiberal wishes.

And you're making such an excellent case for the other side by attacking me personally. You've stopped just short of calling me stupid. I can't say I admire your level of self-control, because I think you've already been extremely rude.

Have a lovely day.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget To Hit Gas Guzzlers

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 48):
And you're making such an excellent case for the other side by attacking me personally.

That's a personal attack?  Yeah sure

Right, OK.
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