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NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 96):
I personally see, and I know I'm going to get roasted over this, a lot of gay people being gay because they WANT to be gay, or something in their life, usually early childhood, caused them to be gay. That would include things such as rape, touching, etc, at a young age.

I hope you're trying to be funny. If gay people want to be gay, do straight people want to be straight? I'm straight, and I for one never made the decision to follow the sexual preferences of the majority. Talk about pseudo-science ...
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N1120A
Posts: 26650
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):
Not for the kid.

They aren't a kid at that point

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):


Equal protection of the law concerns individual rights

No, equal protection of the law concerns those rights granted by various laws, including the right to marry. If the government wants to stop sanctioning marriages, it can, but it can't say only certain people can get married.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):
But equal protection doesn't allow for same-sex marriage, because, for one thing, there is no law (nationally) that allows for it.

National law has nothing to do with it. The 14th Amendment applies equally to the states and the states are the ones that pass laws regarding marriage. It is not about having a law that allows for same sex marriage, it is about having a law that allows for mixed sex marriage without having the same apply to same sex couples.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 87):
And when should this decision be made by? During pregnancy? Or can the man stop supporting the child at any time he wishes?

During pregnancy, just like an abortion.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 87):
The problems alcohol and tobacco have caused for society are evident, and yet you want to add more problems to the mix. Obviously an outright ban of alcohol or tobacco will never be successful as we were shown during Prohibition and both still have a significant impact on our national economy, but let's not add any more fuel to the fire.

Given the far greater adverse health consequences of habitual tobacco use and the far greater adverse social consequences from alcohol abuse, marijuana is a drop in the bucket. Further, a whole lot of violent crime would be curtailed as well as spending of the prison system.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 87):
And I'm at last, finally convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the phrase "personal responsibility" means NOTHING to you and is nowhere to be found in your vocabulary

Oh really? Is that why I have managed living in 2 countries, 3 distinct regions of the US, an undergraduate and graduate education, not to mention not touching tobacco, drugs or alcohol or getting a woman pregnant? I can state unequivocally that I have likely exercised far more "personal responsibility" than many people you likely hold up as role models. The whole point of taking personal responsibility is to know what you should and shouldn't do without other people, or the government telling you. An alcoholic sitting in their home getting sh!tfaced while not driving isn't breaking a law, nor are they practicing "personal responsibility". Meanwhile, a junkie doing the same thing is some how affecting society in a worse way? That is complete and utter  redflag 
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FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
Given the far greater adverse health consequences of habitual tobacco use and the far greater adverse social consequences from alcohol abuse, marijuana is a drop in the bucket. Further, a whole lot of violent crime would be curtailed as well as spending of the prison system.

Or is marijuana just seen as a "drop in the bucket" because it's not used as extensively as alcohol and tobacco?

I am curious though. How do you justify arguing so extensively in support of the trans-fat ban but yet think marijuana should be legalized?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
Oh really? Is that why I have managed living in 2 countries, 3 distinct regions of the US, an undergraduate and graduate education, not to mention not touching tobacco, drugs or alcohol or getting a woman pregnant?

Okay. I've lived in 5 regions of the country and have done the same. I don't smoke (and in fact, have always been in favor of any legislation outlawing smoking in public places), and I've had less alcohol in my life than some of my friends have had in a night. I'm still a virgin. I haven't even had so much as a speeding or parking ticket.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
The whole point of taking personal responsibility is to know what you should and shouldn't do without other people, or the government telling you

Well, the government tells me and you what to do and what not to do on many levels ranging from don't rob a bank to don't drive over the speed limit to drive on the right side of the road to wear a seatbelt when driving. How is this any different?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
An alcoholic sitting in their home getting sh!tfaced while not driving isn't breaking a law, nor are they practicing "personal responsibility". Meanwhile, a junkie doing the same thing is some how affecting society in a worse way? That is complete and utter

In 2002, Smoking cost Americans $157.4 billion per year for health care costs. I didn't even look up what alcohol costs society. Why should we add the costs associated with marijuana to the list? Why should I bear the burden of covering healthcare cost for this on top of what I already pay for smoking costs?

[Edited 2007-03-22 03:28:59]
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GuitrThree
Posts: 1941
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 98):
You've got it a little mixed up, I believe.



Quoting PA110 (Reply 99):
Dude, you've got about as much understanding of gay people as I have of quantum physics.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 100):
I hope you're trying to be funny. If gay people want to be gay, do straight people want to be straight?

I'm not going to comment further than what I've done. Last time I did, I got two weeks off for simply stating my opinion, then arguing about it. I do state, that this is simply my opinion and that's what I believe. You might not agree, but thats fine, you have that right.
So to save the space now, and in the future if anyone else wants to chime in, I will not comment on what I said past the point of saying that's what I believe, and to point out the fact that I said:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 96):
a lot of gay people being gay because they WANT to be gay, or something in their life, usually early childhood, caused them to be gay.

to which apparently you glossed over the words "a lot," which means I didn't say EVERYONE. To further the argument past this point is senseless, and I won't be dragged into it.
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TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
1. Abortion

 checkmark  thumbsup  The more the merrier!!

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
2. Gay marriage

 checkmark  thumbsup  Marriage for the left wing churches that will support it, Civil unions for those who want to avoid the church thing. And all STATE recognized unions should be JUST that, a State UNION, not a "marriage".

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
3. Capital punishment

 checkmark  thumbsup  The more the merrier!!

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
4. Gay adoption

 checkmark  thumbsup  given how many stories there are about bad adoptions and abusive foster parents, this is a no-brainer. If the kid is happy in the environment and flourishes: who cares if both parent's have roosters or kitties between thier legs?
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aerorobnz
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
1. Abortion
2. Gay marriage
3. Capital punishment
4. Gay adoption

1. I don't care what goes on with a mother's body - it is her choice to rid her body of foreign lifeforms if she so chooses, the world is overpopulated, and I think it is better to cease the existence of a foetus than someone that has already been born.

2. Why not?? It doesn't affect me in any way, and it allows Gays the same right to be legally bound to another individual as anyone else be they White, Black,Green,Jewish,Muslim,Catholic or otherwise.

3. Nah, not for me, I think it is any easy cop out. I far prefer making criminals suffer in a concrete cell for the rest of their natural lives, with not much food, little water, and maybe a few manacles, or at least go back to the Roman way of dealing with criminals - in a colosium.

4. I don't honestly care either way.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Molykote
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
1. Abortion

Thinking about this procedure disturbs me....

However, when forced to look at this issue in an objective/legal context, I think N1120A nails it:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 76):
100% pro-choice. I think the current guidelines in place: no regulation of first trimester, regulation of procedure only in second and restriction in the third, are perfect. I also think that since it is the woman's choice to keep the baby, the man should have the choice of whether to support the baby or not. If they choose not to, they have to give up all parental rights as well. On the other hand, I think the rights of willing fathers should be expanded after the baby is born.

Although I agree with N1120A's thought's on the man's role in such a situation, I can't imagine the rest of the country being fair minded enough to embrace it.

All I can add to N1120A's response (at risk of stating the obvious) is that I believe all of us are interested in reducing the number of abortion procedures (for a number of different reasons and by a number of different means)

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
2. Gay marriage

Recognized gay couples don't bother me. However, I see little point in battling the concept of "marriage" as it has been known for the last few thousand years.

Why not make all committed partnerships "civil unions" as far as the law is concerned? Any sub classification of this union is left to the couple and whatever religious entitity is involved.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
3. Capital punishment

In principal, I am not against capital punishment. In practice, I couldn't have a hand in any of the dealings of an execution (either by "requesting" the death penalty or by actually carrying out the process of killing someone).

I never thought about it until now but this appears to be somewhat consistent with my stance on abortion.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
4. Gay adoption

I don't have an answer for this one yet. I am sure that gay couples are fully capable of loving and caring for a child, but I haven't given this enough thought to reach a conclusion....
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andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 104):
Marriage for the left wing churches that will support it, Civil unions for those who want to avoid the church thing. And all STATE recognized unions should be JUST that, a State UNION, not a "marriage".

OMG, Ted! That is actually a very good statement. I'm with Ted on that one.
 
ORDmax
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:19 pm

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Abortion:

I think it's a personal decision that the woman should be able to make.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Gay marriage

I have no problem with it;
it shouldn't be up to the government to decide who you marry.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Capital punishment

In extreme cases, i guess so, but I don't think that we should sink to the levels of the people that commited the crime.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Gay adoption

Why Not? If both gay parents can be good parents, and provide a good living environment for the child, I don't see anything wrong with it. Although, I could see it being hard for the kid growing up getting made fun of for having two dads.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):
Not for the kid.

They aren't a kid at that point

Says who? I wonder how mothers who carry their babies to term would feel about that remark.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):


Equal protection of the law concerns individual rights

No, equal protection of the law concerns those rights granted by various laws, including the right to marry. If the government wants to stop sanctioning marriages, it can, but it can't say only certain people can get married.

Following that line of reasoning, would you say that it would be ok to allow for something like, for example, incestual marriage?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 101):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 86):
But equal protection doesn't allow for same-sex marriage, because, for one thing, there is no law (nationally) that allows for it.

National law has nothing to do with it.

Then why has there been debate on it on the national level?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 104):
Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
1. Abortion

The more the merrier!!

 banghead  In what of anything that has lasting value do you believe anyway?

-R
Living the American Dream
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
They aren't a kid at that point

Says who?

Not I. I have mentioned to him at least twice that a baby is a baby for those of us who want them as soon as the test comes back positive. IMHO, calling a incipient human an embryo and giving it less rights than other human beings begets a slippery slope towards classifying some lives as more worthy than others. Thus, for example, I changed my position towards being fully pro-life, which means I am also death penalty, no matter the circumstances. Life IS precious, and the willful elimination of ANY life is not becoming of a civilized world.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
Following that line of reasoning, would you say that it would be ok to allow for something like, for example, incestual marriage?

What about bigamy? plural? underage? The fact is government/society has already placed plenty of restrictions by which most of us already live under.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45):
If a couple wants to make it a religious ceremony, the church, temple, mosque, or wherever they want to have their marriage should either accept all comers or lose their tax-exempt status.


So are you saying homosexual marriage should be forced on the religious community?

[Edited 2007-03-22 07:37:25]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 111):
So are you saying homosexual marriages should be forced on the religious community?

Nope, not at all. Churches, synagogues and mosques are free to become active politically if they want to lose their tax-exempt status, and I believe that if they want to maintain a discriminatory policy, they should be free to lose their tax-exempt status for that as well. Complete freedom of choice.
International Homo of Mystery
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
Churches, synagogues and mosques are free to become active politically

Which is totally different from adhering to their beliefs.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
and I believe that if they want to maintain a discriminatory policy, they should be free to lose their tax-exempt status for that as well.

So refusing to marry a homosexual couple, due to religious convictions, is discriminatory? Are you saying the right choice is acting against religious beliefs?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
Complete freedom of choice.



"Put up, or shut up" would be more precise. Everyone on this planet has the freedom to choose the course of their actions. Since most places of worship rely on tax exemptions to get by financially, telling the religious community to marry homosexual couples or loose the church is forcing organized religion to act against their beliefs, or face the risk of destabilization.

[i]Note: Edited for spelling[/i}

[Edited 2007-03-22 08:10:46]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 113):
So refusing to marry a homosexual couple, due to religious conversations, is discriminatory? Are you saying the right choice is acting against religious beliefs?

A church, synagogue or mosque is nothing other than a private club of like minded individuals, who currently have the right to exclude from membership anyone who disagrees with not only their faiths, but also their policies. If they have a discriminatory policy, that should exclude them from government handouts. There are any number of legal precedents to support this.
International Homo of Mystery
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 114):
A church, synagogue or mosque is nothing other than a private club of like minded individuals

In your opinion. In other words, your simply disagreeing with others. You don't believe in the existence of a omnipotent deity pertaining to one or all religions (ways of life), that may or may not be in charge.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 114):
who currently have the right to exclude from membership anyone who disagrees with not only their faiths, but also their policies.

That is their right under the law. No one is being forced to partake is religious activities, so why should people be allowed to force their beliefs on the religious community?

Most people, without an ulterior agenda, will not partake in a religion which teaches against what they fundamentally believe.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 114):
There are any number of legal precedents to support this.

The actions that are similar to your idea have already been hashed out in the Supreme Court of Canada. The court ruled against them on Dec 9, 2004.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 113):
Which is totally different from adhering to their beliefs.

Is it? Wouldn't you say that the socio-political issues that many churches choose to be involved in are connected to their faith?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 113):
So refusing to marry a homosexual couple, due to religious convictions, is discriminatory?

All religions are discriminatory, in one way or another. The thing is that alot of people disagree where the line should be drawn for religious entities, since churches get a helluva lot more leeway than everybody else when it comes to discriminating people.

Cheers
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Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 115):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 114):A church, synagogue or mosque is nothing other than a private club of like minded individuals

In your opinion.

No, it's not an opinion. Strip the deity part away from it all, and it's exactly what I said it is. Simply believing in a deity should not be free reign to harbor discriminatory policies.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 115):
No one is being forced to partake is religious activities, so why should people be allowed to force their beliefs on the religious community?

Guess what? Religious organizations are "forced" to be non-political, even if they support issues they are for or against on a fundamental basis, such as abortion.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 115):
The actions that are similar to your idea have already been hashed out in the Supreme Court of Canada. The court ruled against them on Dec 9, 2004.

::yawn:: Canada doesn't rule the world.

Quoting Doona (Reply 116):
All religions are discriminatory, in one way or another. The thing is that alot of people disagree where the line should be drawn for religious entities, since churches get a helluva lot more leeway than everybody else when it comes to discriminating people.

 checkmark  And the surprising thing is, there are plenty of people who will hide behind their "faith" to endorse bigotry.
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TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 116):
Is it? Wouldn't you say that the socio-political issues that many churches choose to be involved in are connected to their faith?

Most of the religious community doesn't support the idea of forcing their beliefs on others. In fact, it makes no sense to do so. You can't force people to honestly believe in something.

Quoting Doona (Reply 116):
All religions are discriminatory, in one way or another.

Discriminatory in what way? Most religions make it a point to allow people of all walks of life to take part in worship services and similar activities. It's obvious you need people to participate in order to make the decision to choose a certain faith or belief as their own.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 118):
Most religions make it a point to allow people of all walks of life to take part in worship services and similar activities.

Perhaps you should do a bit of reading about what constitutes "all walks of life":

Quoting http://www.sisterpaula.org/Blog/D63646C8-20A8-49F5-9AC1-0339CA8FAF19.html:

New Beginnings Christian Center in Portland, Oregon told me they would "welcome me with open arms" if I let them "cast that spirit (transsexuality) out of me" and be "restored" to the male identity. Otherwise, I was told, "don't come at all."
International Homo of Mystery
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 117):
Guess what? Religious organizations are "forced" to be non-political, even if they support issues they are for or against on a fundamental basis, such as abortion.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 117):
Simply believing in a deity should not be free reign to harbor discriminatory policies.

Yes, organized religion cannot dictate the laws of the land. However, people of the religious community have the right to make personal decisions based on their religious convictions, such as preforming homosexual marriages. No one is denying the right of homosexuals to participate in a religious activities, such as worship services.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 117):
::yawn:: Canada doesn't rule the world.

Yes, but I suspect similar ruling will be made in the United States.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:59 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 120):
However, people of the religious community have the right to make personal decisions based on their religious convictions, such as preforming homosexual marriages.

CORRECT! Never said you couldn't. All I'm saying is that if you choose to have discriminatory policies, you shouldn't receive tax benefits for it. That's called having an opinion. The title of this thread is: "Social Issues - Your Opinions". I don't know how many more times you want to beat this horse, but I'm getting tired of it, and I would assume others are as well. Move on.
International Homo of Mystery
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 119):

What does the New Beginnings Christian Center have to do with the majority of religious people on the planet?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 120):
No one

Oops, I meant that as the majority.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 121):
That's called having an opinion. The title of this thread is: "Social Issues - Your Opinions".

I know, and I respect that. I didn't mean to make it personal.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 122):
What does the New Beginnings Christian Center have to do with the majority of religious people on the planet?

If you want to beat this horse to absolute fucking death, first please inform us how many years of your life you've lived as a homosexual or transgendered person, so we have a little perspective on what you may have run across in the way of treatment by the religious community in this regard. If your answer is zero, nunca, nada, MOVE ON.
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TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
In what of anything that has lasting value do you believe anyway?

Nothing. Because I believe that 1 of two things are guaranteed to happen. We will either become the aliens in "ID4" (planet pillaging 'rapists') or we will all die due to an earth ending event. All this that we are doing now is an excercise in futility, but it's part of our EVOLUTION.
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767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 106):
Although I agree with N1120A's thought's on the man's role in such a situation, I can't imagine the rest of the country being fair minded enough to embrace it.

Excuse me? Wanting a guy to help support something HE created, for the benefit of the innocent child, is not being fair minded? The only reason women have the ultimate right to choose over the guy is by default only -- it's THEIR body this has happened to and you can't force someone to have a medical procedure they don't want.

Sorry, but life's a bitch sometimes. Things aren't always 50-50. But guess what? The woman wouldn't be pregnant without the guy's assistance. If the guy really doesn't want to find himself in that situation, wear a friggin' condom, or just say NO.

I have an ex who got this absolute nutcase pregnant because he didn't wear a condom. The kid is now 7 years old and my ex is helping support and raise him. For all his other faults, I have to say he is a real man, taking responsibility. And believe me, the mother is not a woman he wants to have anything to do with over the next 18 years.

Maybe you don't agree, but don't say I'm not "fair minded" just because I don't agree with you. I am looking at a bigger picture.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
They aren't a kid at that point

Says who? I wonder how mothers who carry their babies to term would feel about that remark.

Not to mention those who have suffered miscarriages. To them it is like a death in the family.
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:32 am

Abortion: I believe the current system is pretty effective. I do believe that by mid-term (so around 4.5 months) there should be more regulation. While I support a woman's right to choose as I don't believe government has any right to say what she does with her body, I also believe that if you can't make up your mind whether to abort or carry to term by mid-point then tough noogies for you. Also I am against late-term abortions except in exceptional circumstances, like children resulting from rape or complications that threaten the mother's life.

Gay marriage: 100% for. I believe part of the problem in the US is the fact that most people don't make the distinction between the legal and religious aspects of marriage. In Europe more emphasis is placed on the legal ceremony than in the US. In the US, people are often legally married for days before getting married in church but it's the church ceremony that they recognize on their anniversary. In Europe, the marriage licence is often signed just before the religious ceremony with the entire wedding party present therefore I believe the legal aspect is seen as a more separate entity. I'm also not out to change the traditional meaning of marriage. I don't believe churches should be forced to marry invdividuals that they don't see fit. However, I also don't believe in separate-but-equal. Therefore, my opinion is state-sanctioned unions, marriage reserved for church. Of course, anyone can call their union, be it legal and/or religious, marriage or call it by some other name. In France the verb "pacser" was created from the word PACS, pacte civil de solidarité, or civil union. But, ALL people should be entitled to the legal benefits of "marriage" regardless of orientation. Call it whatever you want as long as it's the same for ALL people, heterosexual or homosexual.

Death Penalty: Probably the only good thing that came out of a Catholic high school education was that it completely changed my views on the death penalty. Prior to this segment of grade 12 religion class I was for the death penalty. My views were changed. I am now completely against the death penalty.

Gay adoption: For. Again, I don't believe in discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Also for the decriminalization of personal marijuana use.

Also for universal heath care.

Furthermore, I don't know what's been going on these boards lately, but this is another controversial topic that didn't deteriorate into a complete bash fest full of all the usual ideological frivolities. We went almost 100 posts for that to happen! Weeeeeeird!

LH423 <====pinko liberal commie  biggrin 
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
L.1011
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:33 am

1. Abortion

Pro-choice, with reservations. Make it a normal, legitimate medical procedure, at a hospital. Require the father's consent if he's still around. Prescribe RU-486 for as long into the pregnancy as its useful (7-12 weeks), then vacuum abortion. Allow abortion on demand up to 24 weeks, but abortions for rape, incest, mother's health, and birth defects using any method at any time. Ban public funding for abortion and require that women seeking elective abortions receive information about the abortion procedure and alternatives from a unbiased third party beforehand, and require that aborted fetal tissue be donated to science. However, eliminate parental notification and permissions laws, as well as minimum ages.

2. Gay Marriage

Why the hell not? Marriage was invented by humans and we have the right to fiddle with it as we please. Just because Edison's ego would probably be bruised if he knew we were changing his light bulb is no reason not to do so.

3. Death Penalty

Yes, with reservations. Restrict it to criminals over 18, expand evidence requirements, federalize all death penalty cases and establish special appeals courts to speed up the appeals process to 6 months or less. Allow the condemned to have a last meal, Last Rites, published last words, and a choice of witnesses.

I base my support on my view that there are three main types of crimes. The first and most common would be "stupid law crimes", things that people are going to do no matter what the law book says, like speeding, drug use, jaywalking, and the like. The second would be "public order crimes", things that are caused primarily by poverty, toxic culture, failed schools and so on and would be eliminated by fixing those problems. Most theft, vandalism, organized crime, and so on results from this. The last would be "evil crimes", things that people are going to go regardless of what the law says, what society says, and how good life is. This would be your murder, rape, child abuse, and such. Criminals of the third sort are never going to be reformed, and I see little reason to have them sit in a prison for life.

4. Gay Adoption

Again, why not? There are plenty of terrible straight parents and plenty of gay people who would make great ones.
 
57AZ
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:20 pm

1. Abortion- Yes with reasonable limitations.: woman's choice if before the end of the first trimester; in cases of rape/molestation; if necessary to save the life of the mother or if medical tests determine that the child will suffer from serious, incurable medical conditions that would seriously impact that child's quality of life.

2.Gay marriage- Yes. Here we have a secular state with clear separation between church and government. It is arguably unconstitutional to allow heterosexual couples to enjoy legal benefits and then refuse those same benefits to same sex couples. Marriage under the church and marriagernunder domestic law are two entirely different matters. The church is free to think what they wish but their marriages are only official in that the state authorizes clergy to officially marry parties whom state law declares as eligible to marry. If say, Arizona were to authorize some form of same-sex marriage or civil union, couples could be married by a JP (Justice of the Peace) or other judge without raising the issue of same-sex marriages and the church.

3. Capital punishment- No. It seems to me that the majority of capital punishment proponents seek two things: retribution/revenge and swift, certain punishment. Justice should certainly be swift and certain-however, we are human and prone to making mistakes every now and then. If you wish to have capital punishment, then you must provide for sufficient appeals so that if there appears to be any possibility that a mistake has been made, that situation is thoroughly investigated to the satisfaction of all parties involved. Due to the number of cases working their way through the courts, this process can and does necessarily take a long time. Such investigations can also be very costly. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the burden of proof. In many cases it is met. However, there are just as many cases where that is far less certain. The results of the work of groups such as the Innocence Project should be enough to raise considerable alarm concerning wrongful convictions due to mistaken identity or poor/insufficient investigation on the part of the police, prosecution or defense. Punishment, revenge and retribution are entirely different concepts. As far as the state and law are concerned, once a sentence has been completed, the prisoner has paid his debt to society. Whether or not individual members of society see it as that is up to them.

4. Gay adoption- Yes. Same-sex couples should be permitted to adopt assuming that they can meet the requirements that currently exist (notwithstanding those that may prohibit international adoption by same-sex couples). I should note that many countries do permit single women to adopt at this time.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
airxliban
Topic Author
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:07 pm

Thanks guys for all the responses

I would like to make one comment here based on what I have been reading...just with regards to the last two items I think a distinction needs to be made between opinions based on principle and opinions based on practicalities.

Gay adoption for one -

The argument proposed by some here is that there are many orphans desperately in need of love and if there is a couple that wants to provide them that love, then what difference does it make if the couple is heterosexual or homosexual? I think this applies to most people who have stated their opinion.

On the other side of the coin, in an ideal world, children shouldn't be orphaned, and if they are they should be taken care of by other family members, grandparents and in the absence of anyone appropriate then they should be left in the care of a good orphanage and a good orphanage is one that will take care of them almost as well as their parents that are no longer around.

The last paragraph above is what I would consider to be an opinion based on principle which is clearly far removed from the realities of the world - children are orphaned, they are orphaned for more reasons than one, they do need love and affection, there aren't always other family members to be guardians, and not all orphanages are good ones, right? So given the choice of an orphange and two adults (that have hopefully passed some sort of screening to make sure that they are responsible), should we not err on the side of the two adults and have them adopt the child?

Going through this analysis I think it makes sense to allow a gay couple to adopt a child...but given what I have just outlined I don't think that a gay couple should be allowed to have their own child either through finding a donor for an egg or sperm or whatever other method there might be (haven't thought about this too much yet but this is my initial conclusion).

That said, lets say that two couples (one heterosexual, one homosexual) want to adopt the same child - then how do you figure out who to give it to? Presumably you would not just choose the heterosexual couple without doing some sort of other match (which I must admit I have no idea what is currently done even for heterosexual couples only).

Complicated, complicated...feel free to disagree with what I have just talked about and also feel free to point out parts that you think are completely bogus. I must admit that prior to writing this thread I did not have a solidifed opinion on gay adoption.


Now on the issue of capital punishment -

I think that the opinion based on practicalities would state that we should allow capital punishment because there are clearly some people who have no place in society and are not going to be reformed etc etc.

The opinion based on principle however, would argue that capital punishment should not be allowed because we as a society should first of all not advocate irreversible punishment in any form and secondly demonstrate by example that no one has the right to take anyone else's life.

Clearly there is a cost of banning capital punishment but hopefully the effect of doing so is that society as a whole will be better off.

...Am I talking rubbish?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
airxliban
Topic Author
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:55 pm

Any comments on my last post?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
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BNE
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:01 pm

1. Abortion

First trimester sure; its the woman's choice; if she does not want the child then she should have the choice. An unwanted child can prove problems for the society in future.

2. Gay marriage

The word marriage should only be used between a man and a woman, but a civil union should be available which gives 2 people of the same sex equal rights as those that are married. Its not as though the straight world has such a great record on keeping a marriage together.

3. Capital punishment

You kill someone then someone can kill you. Now this has to be beyond reasonable doubt with scientific evidence. Fry the fuckers sounds appropriate.

4. Gay adoption[/quote]

If the child is related to one of the couple then sure adoption should be available but if there is no preexisting relationship then definitely no. A child should have a mother and a father for some part of their lives, even if they do turn out to be dysfunctional and or break up.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
N1120A
Posts: 26650
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RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
Says who?

Says science

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
I wonder how mothers who carry their babies to term would feel about that remark.

Given that there are millions of pro-choice mothers that agree with me, I think you can answer that yourself

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
Then why has there been debate on it on the national level?

Because it is a common issue among the states.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
Following that line of reasoning, would you say that it would be ok to allow for something like, for example, incestual marriage?

You know, they said the same thing when Loving was decided. Immediate family are precluded based on their physical and legal relationships that otherwise influence them. That is why even first cousins can marry in most states, despite what many, including me, think of it. Gay incest would be precluded too.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Boeing744
Posts: 1765
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:27 pm

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Abortion

I am pro-choice, to a point. Definitely not in the third trimester (with the exception of saving the woman's life), and in the second trimester there should be some restrictions. First trimester should be completely at the woman's discretion though.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Gay marriage

Absolutely for it.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Capital punishment

Yes. I think that it also should not just be reserved for murderers. Child rapists and alike also. I do disagree with how the prisoners sit for years on death row before it's there turn to go. I think it should be done within the year they are convicted.

Quoting AirxLiban (Thread starter):
Gay adoption

Absolutely, but realistically it should be different with gay couples. If the couple is suitable, this is fine, but there is no denying a child needs a father and a mother figure in their life. I think the couple should have a suitable relative or friend to act as a father or mother figure, sort of like big-brothers/big-sisters.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 11):
Euthnasia:

Without a glimmer of doubt yes. Aside from gay marriage this is the issue I feel most strongly FOR.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:17 am

1. Abortion

Hate it, discourage it , believe me.. dont do it ,you will regret it or you should.
I dont want the government to get involved. It should remain a free choice , but I would support a educational period for the women and father. Parental notification should be required for all minor abortions. Sometimes when I look at my 10 year old daughter I realize how horrific abortion really is. When my ex wife became pregnent with our 3rd child she freeked out. We were actually considering abortion .... for real. My Ex wife was just a mess , hormonal and really depressed. We spoke to her doctor about it and she was basically OK with doing the abortion. Now when I think of what we would have missed I have no choice but to be against abortion.

2. Gay marriage

Basically it does not matter what I think about it.. I am a traditionalist , I know its worse than a terrorist.. shoot me.

3. Capital punishment

After watching "Lockup" on MSNBC last night .. sorry to say we need more of it. These guys are admitted multiple homicide offenders and basically need to go away. 1 appeal thats cool.. then X

4. Gay adoption[/quote]

If their good people and want to raise children with good values of basic"citizenry" then anyone should be able to adopt.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 133):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
Says who?

Says science

Can you please elaborate? As in which science sources stated that at X point this is now someone's kid?

I am not implying that there are no such sources..I just want to know what you are referencing.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 136):

There are debates regarding when the fetus/embryo is actually alive, IIRC.

N1120 and I have gotten into that discussion many a times.

Essentially I would say it boils down to this:

If you want the baby it is a baby the moment you realize you are carrying it, and you will grieve for its loss.

If you don't want it, it is something else.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Social Issues - Your Opinions

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 137):
If you want the baby it is a baby the moment you realize you are carrying it, and you will grieve for its loss.

If you don't want it, it is something else.

 checkmark 

Now that is truly a " inconvenient truth "
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !

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