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TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:02 am

So I happened to check my 'professional' G-mail account and I found the following:

Quote:
Technical Support Positions Available
(Company deleted) is currently looking for bi-lingual Technical Support Professionals for a permanent position in the Deland, Florida area. This position provides support for the FDOT Service Desk statewide. It requires direct and indirect customer support to technical staff throughout the State. It requires the ability to communicate effectively with technical and non-technical personnel to identify and resolve complex technical issues. The incumbent creates requests, incidents and or problem tickets in the CA Service Center software providing updates when required. The incumbent monitors and reports system issues to the management staff and distributes tickets to the appropriate queue for distribution to the technicians. The incumbent
responds to callbacks and performs other duties as may be required.

The position pays $12.50/hr, provides medical, dental & vision benefits and comes with 20 PTO/Holidays annually.

Candidates will Utilize Service Desk software application to record and escalate unresolved problems to Tier Two / Tier Three technical staff in the appropriate District to ensure the Technical Support Staff are working
on resolving the issue. Ensure calls are logged with all required information to ensure the Service Desk Ticket provides the Tier Two /
Three technician with the required information to begin resolving the
customers Service Desk issue.

Requirements:
Knowledge of principles and processes for providing Customer Service
including problem solving and assessment techniques, quality service
standards, and customer satisfaction evaluation techniques. Knowledge
of PC technology to include: Hardware, software applications, network
interface, LAN/WAN architecture and related technical knowledge to
support multi-platform Information Systems Enterprise. Ability to work
independently, without close manager oversight. Knowledge of available
and effective methods to research technical information relating to
Information Systems and Call Center / Service Desk operations. Ability
to use Call Center software application to accurately record request for
customer service for information and technology problems and issues.
Ability to communicate orally in a clear and concise manner and to work
productively and professionally with users, management, and co-workers
to resolve problems and accomplish goals in a timely manner. Ability to
follow both written and oral instructions. Ability to handle multiple
projects. Ability to learn on own and teach others. Ability to work
with internal and external customers in a tactful and courteous manner.
Ability to follow instructions.

If you believe this position will be a good fit for you, please send me your resume in Word format. We will be interviewing ASAP.

Thank you,

(Company clone name deleted)

$12.50/hr for all of the above?!?!? What teenager who can afford to take that pay rate has the above qualifications? What type of person who has that kind of experience has been paid so poorly that this position 'looks good'? I'm slumming @ $15/hr (without being bi-lingual) as it is; and these morons think I want to jump ship for this  redflag . Not to mention it's a longer commute. Wonderful economy W. keep up the good work  Wink Shit I could move to India and do better  Yeah sure
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AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:17 am

I know what you mean. They're horseshit, low paying jobs. People my age can't make a living on that kind of wage. And Bush proudly gloats about creating these new jobs. To him, a job is a job and the wage/salary isn't important.

On the other end of the scale are big shots in suits and German cars making more in a day than I would make in a month. And their wages and benefits keep going up. And do they really work? They yap on the phone and go to meetings. I've watched some of them work. A lot of them have jobs that don't require any more skill than that of someone with a generic university degree.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Molykote
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:20 am

Yawn.

Like Bush or hate him. Regardless, this appears to be a simple case of supply vs. demand.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
RichPhitzwell
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:19 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:23 am

Ok since we are talking tech and im drunk...I say dont take jobs that pay shit. if you are worth anything, hold out. they get what they pay for in the end and that is shit.

nuff said.
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30125
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Shit I could move to India and do better

True to some extend.But with the current Economy out here Booming.Salaries are rising too.Ideal don't accept a job thats paying peanuts if you are not desperate.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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GuitrThree
Posts: 1941
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Shit I could move to India and do better

Last time I checked, no one was stopping you....
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airtran737
Posts: 3498
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 3):
...I say dont take jobs that pay shit. i

Damn straight, thats what we have immigrant labor for!

(please take that with sarcasm, begin un bunching panties.)
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Molykote
Posts: 1240
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:41 am

Taking a second look at this posting, I did more than this ad requires (apart from bi-lingual functions) in high school for $6/hr with no benefits. In fact, I actually did more that this as I was solving technical problems rather than "writing tickets" as this job seems to be targeted toward.

It basically appears that this company is offering a government job* (which typically means good benefits and job stability) at a modest wage for an unexceptional skill set. What is wrong with this job posting exactly?

The ad mentions "knowledge of" X, Y, and Z - not "mastery of".


* --> FDOT = Florida Dept of Transportation? If it's anything like PennDOT, $12.50 is too much!
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Shit I could move to India and do better

Last time I checked, no one was stopping you....

 checkmark 

Quoting Molykote (Reply 7):
It basically appears that this company is offering a government job* (which typically means good benefits and job stability) at a modest wage for an unexceptional skill set. What is wrong with this job posting exactly?

Looks like answering the phone at a help desk and then sending someone else to fix the problem. Full benefits too. Doesn't look like such a hard job at all.

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Wonderful economy W. keep up the good work

I'm not a Bush fan, but I fail to see how this job, or its pay scale, is his fault. I know, the President is blamed for bad times, and takes credit for good times, but neither is exactly fair. As mentioned, it's supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a lot more computer savvy people out there than there were twenty years ago. I worked software, hardware, networks, etc. for ten years, but back then hardly anybody knew computers. Now the kids in middle school know as much as anyone. Sad but true....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
andessmf
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
Now the kids in middle school know as much as anyone.

My ass they do!

Been trying to find competent technical people for a long time to take care of ALL our computer needs. Unfortunately, this area is getting so specialized that we would need several people to do what I can do. And since they don't talk to each other, I end up picking up the pieces.
 
cfalk
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
$12.50/hr for all of the above?!?!? What teenager who can afford to take that pay rate has the above qualifications? What type of person who has that kind of experience has been paid so poorly that this position 'looks good'? I'm slumming @ $15/hr (without being bi-lingual) as it is; and these morons think I want to jump ship for this . Not to mention it's a longer commute. Wonderful economy W. keep up the good work Shit I could move to India and do better

Well I'm making about $1,000 per day. It's a combination of education, family upbringing, the choices I made and (if I must be honest) a little bit of luck, as well as working my ass off 80 hours a week in Siberia, Vietnam, India and other lovely places. And I landed the job only a couple of months ago (hence my long absence from these forums for a while)

Notice I did not mention Bush, Clinton, or any other government nobody. It is not their business to give you a job. YOU do it. And don't think that the amount of study is a proper measure of how much you should get paid. That's a version of the Labor Theory of Value, and we all know that that is bunk. If you choose to be a computer technician (which paid well some years ago) but now have to compete with 15 million other guys with exactly the same education as you, sorry, but you made a bad choice. Not Bush, YOU. I suggest you train yourself in a more exclusive and lucrative field, according to the rules of supply and demand.

And if you are upset at the fact that the world is getting smaller, well excuse the hell out of us for inventing the telephone, computers, the internet, airplanes, cars, and faxes.

Life is tough. Get a fu&%ing helmet.

[Edited 2007-03-22 05:31:59]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
Notice I did not mention Bush, Clinton, or any other government nobody. It is not their business to give you a job.

But it's their business not to take them away. And Bush ain't doing much to help the situation.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18625
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
I suggest you train yourself in a more exclusive and lucrative field, according to the rules of supply and demand.

Or join a union and demand that someone else pay you more for the same crappy work we could have a machine do Wink

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Wonderful economy W. keep up the good work

Are we really basing the health of an economy off of one job posting? Seriously?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
JAL777
Posts: 2453
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:06 pm

I got a 27% raise last month. Bush's been good to me.  Smile
 
sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 11):
But it's their business not to take them away. And Bush ain't doing much to help the situation.

Naw, really? Unemployment is, essentially, non-existent.

Ask business owners who are trying to hire; everybody who *wants* to work, is working.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 14):
Ask business owners who are trying to hire; everybody who *wants* to work, is working.

Like my 48 year old friend whose $21 an hour job was shipped overseas? He now works in a convenience store for $8.75 an hour.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
N174UA
Posts: 1010
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:19 pm

The best investment anyone can make is in themselves. I'm going many thousands in the hole to pursue a Master's of International Business, of which I'm halfway there. I could have gone for an MBA, but I want a more specific area of knowledge to help me stand out a little more from the thousands of other MBA's.

Whether it's vocational training at a community college, an MBA program, Law school, whatever....figure out what you're good at, and earn every certification, degree you can, to set yourself above the others. Understand the current labor market and where it's trending, and align yourself accordingly.

Some other thoughts:

* Don't blame Vietnam or China or wherever else for the fact that some people in this country are rich and others are poor. We trade with those countries, that's it. Income distribution is an internal, domestic issue, regardless of the country. If the U.S. makes $100 from a trade with say, Vietnam, and then proceeds to waste that $100 on a hammer or whatever instead of reinvesting in job training programs, then that's the fault of our government, no one elses. Likewise...if Vietnam makes $100, and then puts that towards public education and infrastructure, then that's their government's decision, no one elses.

* It takes time for policies to take their full effect. President Clinton signed NAFTA in 1994, as well as the Chinese agreement. That agreement led to the explosive growth that WalMart and other companies have seen, and all of this exporting of jobs really began with Clinton, not Bush, yet Bush was blamed in 2004 in the campaigns. Blaming Bush for jobs lost to China as a result of that agreement isn't entirely fair now, is it?

* Labor forces in industrialized countries like ours, Germany, UK, etc. etc. often have what's called an absolute advantage....meaning they are the most efficient at producing good X. They can produce more units of X in less time than workers in other countries. However, the workers in those other countries do the work for much, much less, and that gives them a comparative advantage against our workers, and thus on the basis of cost to produce X, the concept of absolute advantage is irrelevant and comparative advantage means everything.

* Blame consumers, if you have to blame someone. Consumers as a whole are the market, and their willingness to pay for a certain good or service determines the revenue the company will earn, and in turn what wage the company can afford to pay and still be profitable. Wages are variable costs in the short-run, generally 1 year or less....it's the easiest cost to manage in the short run when things have to change fast in order to remain competitive or the firm will either file bankruptcy and possibly liquidate. Need an example? Legacy airlines. Enough said. When enough consumers decide they're willing to pay more for a product or service than what's currently being charged, then perhaps wage and benefit levels can increase. Prices for certain products are highly elastic, meaning a very slight change in price up or down results in a very large change in the volume sold. Again...airline seats are an example. Inelastic goods and services on the other hand are not sensitive to small price changes, since consumers have to have these goods/services. Example? Prescription drugs. Want to make more than $12.50 per hour? Sell pharmaceutical drugs to doctors.

* Go back to the job description. I know nothing about Deland, Florida. Maybe it's in the middle of nowhere, maybe it's a rich suburb of Miami. Point being, $12.50/hour in that community might not be all that bad, or it may be barely scraping by. Remember also that the company is paying probably closer to $25/hour for this job, when you add in their tax liability and the cost of medical benefits. For all I or anyone else knows, this position may lead to much better positions in a short period of time...companies offer positions like these as opportunites for people to get their foot in the door and move up from there.

I could go on, but won't. I feel I've made my point here. The bottom line is that people need to take the initiative to improve their skillsets, either on their own (i.e. learning Excel or Powerpoint) or through a certified program.
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
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RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):

Low paying jobs are going to illegal immigrants and "higher" paying ones to foreign countries. That means that he should go for a WRG (White Rich Guy) job and be a CEO of a Fortune 500 or something.  cheeky 

Seriously though, this problem can't be rested on any one person. Our government is corrupt on all sides, and we as Americans can't seem to stop the bickering enough to do anything about it. We condone things that come to bite us in the butt and then we complain about politicians. It's the new American way.

-Lucas
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 2):
supply vs. demand

Fair point, but I'll get back to that...

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 3):
I say dont take jobs that pay shit. if you are worth anything, hold out. they get what they pay for in the end and that is shit.

Not an easy proposition when you are trying to keep a roof over your children's head.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
Last time I checked, no one was stopping you....

I'm thinking Norway.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 7):
high school

That's my point. I'm long out of high school. I should be doing significantly better.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 7):
What is wrong with this job posting exactly?

It wasn't a posting 'per say' somebody matched my resume online and saw that I would be a slam dunk for the position and e-mailed me.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
I'm not a Bush fan, but I fail to see how this job, or its pay scale, is his fault.

Him allowing his cronies to ship the tech jobs overseas.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
Now the kids in middle school know as much as anyone.

They usually have excellent CODING skills, but they are not 'professionals' and as they never worked with DOS, they rarely have compitent troubleshooting skills.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
80 hours a week in Siberia, Vietnam, India and other lovely places.

Not exactly good options when your trying to be a role model to your children.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Are we really basing the health of an economy off of one job posting? Seriously?

Nope, this job posting coupled with the fact I have made almost 2X as much for the same work.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
He now works in a convenience store for $8.75 an hour.

That's likely going to be my fate in a few months.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
* Don't blame Vietnam or China

I don't. Nor India

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
all of this exporting of jobs really began with Clinton,

(Seriously) Can you prove this? Though I think W. can SHARE the blame for allowing it to continue, I'd like to be accurate and if Clinton deserves more bashing, then hey we all win  Wink

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
Blame consumers,

I blame stock holders if anyone other then politicians.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 17):
Seriously though, this problem can't be rested on any one person. Our government is corrupt on all sides, and we as Americans can't seem to stop the bickering enough to do anything about it. We condone things that come to bite us in the butt and then we complain about politicians. It's the new American way.

Great point.

I understand about the life is hard. I do work for more money right now and am happy about the work/pay ratio. I just miss the days when I worked for significantly more, and did more work. I felt I was more productive all around. Now I feel I am stealing what little I am making and I am still making too little for what my family needs are. Whatever, I'm going back to Bartending.
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disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 7):
It basically appears that this company is offering a government job* (which typically means good benefits and job stability) at a modest wage for an unexceptional skill set. What is wrong with this job posting exactly?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
Looks like answering the phone at a help desk and then sending someone else to fix the problem. Full benefits too. Doesn't look like such a hard job at all.

It isn't. My first job in I.T. required much more knowledge and paid less, and this was in 1998 when tech jobs were heavy on the ground.


Personally, I'm sick to death of I.T. work being outsourced. I'm thinking of becoming an accountant (CPA, which requires a master's in TX) or maybe even a nurse. Accounting jobs can be outsourced. Nursing jobs can't...but everyone knows that so these days you have more luck getting into Harvard's business school than into a decent nursing program since everybody and their grandmother wants to be a nurse all of a sudden.
 
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KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
I'm thinking Norway.

Good luck getting in  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1454
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
I'm thinking Norway.



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 20):
Good luck getting in

That will be a lot easier if you are willing to make some compromises.
Not too long ago Norway let in foreigners and GAVE them housing for free (not letting but house ownership) and very favorable financing deals if they are willing to live outside of the big cities or way up north and start their own business,
Also they have to stay for a certain minimum amount of time ,5 years minimum I believe and after that you get automatic citizenship if you want.
One of the girls of the village I grew up in actually moved with her husband and began a (now very successful) business in Tromso and besides visiting everytime between Christmas and new year she is never coming back.
[edit post]
 
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KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 21):
That will be a lot easier if you are willing to make some compromises.

I'm Norwegian and I have never heard of this. Please post a link.

Although, being that you are from Belgium, you can live and work in Norway per EEC regulations.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
$12.50/hr for all of the above?!?!? What teenager who can afford to take that pay rate has the above qualifications?

It's a Tier 1 help desk position for pete's sake. What do you expect them to pay for someone who reads a script and if what they read off doesn't fix the solution it gets passed on to the higher up folks. This position is nothing more than a first line of defense against morons who have their PC unplugged, not turned on, etc. before passing on the real trouble to the folks who do have the skills to fix the issue.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
It's a Tier 1 help desk position for pete's sake. What do you expect them to pay for someone who reads a script and if what they read off doesn't fix the solution it gets passed on to the higher up folks. This position is nothing more than a first line of defense against morons who have their PC unplugged, not turned on, etc. before passing on the real trouble to the folks who do have the skills to fix the issue.

Hehehehe....yeah, we have people here who do that exact job. They don't fix anything, they just write down what you say (sometimes) and pass it along to people who can fix it. You don't need a lot of specialist knowledge to do it and frankly I wouldn't pay someone $30k a year to do that job.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18625
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Nope, this job posting coupled with the fact I have made almost 2X as much for the same work.

Oh so one job posting and a job you had one time....that's a world of difference Yeah sure

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
What do you expect them to pay for someone who reads a script and if what they read off doesn't fix the solution it gets passed on to the higher up folks

A liveable wage of 50K/year with health and insurance dammit Silly....oh and union protection of course.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
I know what you mean. They're horseshit, low paying jobs. People my age can't make a living on that kind of wage. And Bush proudly gloats about creating these new jobs. To him, a job is a job and the wage/salary isn't important.

On the other end of the scale are big shots in suits and German cars making more in a day than I would make in a month. And their wages and benefits keep going up. And do they really work? They yap on the phone and go to meetings. I've watched some of them work. A lot of them have jobs that don't require any more skill than that of someone with a generic university degree.

When people were dropping out of college to earn six figures plus and stock options nobody seemed to be complaining. I remember that we had a opening paying $70,000/yr for a network administrator and newly minted college grads laughing at us in 2000.

The disequilibrium in the market created an artificial supply for IS professionals. When the market rebalanced itself (as it always does) the six figure superstars are now begging for $40,000/year jobs in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 26):
The disequilibrium in the market created an artificial supply for IS professionals. When the market rebalanced itself (as it always does) the six figure superstars are now begging for $40,000/year jobs in all but the most extreme circumstances.

It depends on their skills. I don't know anyone who made $100k who wasn't pretty high up the food chain. I made $28k at my first SQA job and eventually got all the way up to $60k with bonuses, but that was at a company that fell apart after serious financial mismanagement. The median salary for someone with my skills and experience in Dallas is $80k according to Salary.com, which I've always found to be pretty reliable.

Now...the people who only knew HTML and JavaScript rollovers are pretty much screwed, but genuinely skilled I.T. people with 10+ years of experience should make a lot more than $40k in today's market.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
Like my 48 year old friend whose $21 an hour job was shipped overseas?

"HIS" job? I don't think so. It was his employers job to do with it what they wanted.

Don't get me wrong because I don't think the whole globalization will work everytime but the entitlement of some folks who think the job belongs to them amazes me.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
He now works in a convenience store for $8.75 an hour.

Sounds like your friend didn't keep his skillset up to date or worked in a field that had become commoditized. Sorry to break it to him but it is his responsibility to keep his skills active and in demand. If all he knows is skill A and there is no need for that skill anymore why should we be concerned that he didn't learn a new skill? We shouldn't. He should have been looking out for himself.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):

Great point.

I understand about the life is hard. I do work for more money right now and am happy about the work/pay ratio. I just miss the days when I worked for significantly more, and did more work. I felt I was more productive all around. Now I feel I am stealing what little I am making and I am still making too little for what my family needs are.

I've noticed a general trend of the same thought from many people. I can't know the exact reason, and I've not taken the time to learn it. I know that my mother remembers the day when she worked as a kid right out of college and she said that she made enough money to feed her family. Now she says that it takes two incomes to raise a family. Here in America we have more taxes and smaller incomes per person (though perhaps more jobs?) than we did at one time, meaning that some of the older generation are unhappier. (No offense of course. Big grin)
Anyway, these are really all just effects. I don't know the causes...probably our economy is eroding from the bottom (illegal immigration) while being skimmed from the top (CEOs), and the middle jobs are being eliminated (by going overseas or "right sizing") or taxed to death. On a side note, people in America are money-focused, meaning that they'll work harder and longer for more money (to the point of having no free time), whereas some cultures will take less money just so that they have time to enjoy life.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say, but I know that you're right in the end...the whole mess is just plain sad.

Lucas

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Whatever, I'm going back to Bartending.

That accounts for 90% of Montana's economy!  Wink
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 28):
"HIS" job? I don't think so. It was his employers job to do with it what they wanted.

When did employers stop thinking of their employees as people and start thinking of them as disposable machines? I think it's when they changed the name of the Personnel Department to "Human Resources."
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 29):
Now she says that it takes two incomes to raise a family. Here in America we have more taxes and smaller incomes per person (though perhaps more jobs?) than we did at one time, meaning that some of the older generation are unhappier.

I think that this begs the question, are people spending the money on the same sort of stuff? How many families that need to incomes to survive do you know that have roomfuls of flatscreen TV's, XBoxes, stereos, 200 channels of cable TV, XM radio subscriptions, Ipods, $100 sneakers, Coach handbags, $70/person cell phone plans with unlimited text messaging and expensive cars in the drive ways. How many two income families live in 4,000 sq ft McMansions and fight daily to keep up with the Joneses? How many people own boats that they can afford and take vacations that are beyond their means. How many times have you walked by a family at Disney signing up for one of the vacation club properties that are a rip off.

I for one think that a lot (not all) of people feel that they need two incomes to survive because they want to live a certain lifestyle.

Growing up we were very much in the middle class (and in many years lower middle income). I remember not running the AC in Miami in the middle of summer because the electric bill was too expensive. I remember not having cable TV even though everyone else had it. I remember not being able to go to the movies because my parents didn't have an extra $20 to give me and my brothers. I remember having the generic tennis shoes because there was no way my parents were going to spend $50 on a pair of sneakers. And I know that I wasn't the only one who was in this scenario. But my parent were always available to us, mom was always at home and neither me nor my brothers have ever had problems with drugs, hanging out with the wrong people or the law. When we misbehaved we got spanked and we weren't put on drugs to moderate our behavior.

I think a lot of people misplace their priorities and focus too much on acquisition of tangible wealth instead of what really matters. In the past 8 years my income has risen about 7 fold. I make a very nice living, yet I would say that my lifestyle is far below people who earn less than a quarter of what I earn. I know doctors earning $400,000 year who don't have a peenny in their retirement funds and live paycheck to paycheck.

Last week CNN reported that 19% of people earning over $100,000 per year live paycheck to paycheck. I wonder what the percentage would be if the question was how many people can go two or three pay periods without a paycheck?

My point in all of this is that a lot of people who say they NEED two incomes to survive only NEED this second income because of the choices they make. I'm completely behind anyone's right to chose to live as bigs as they want, but then they shouldn't complain that they can't afford to make it on just one salary.

One need only look around a parking lot at the University of Florida to count the numbers of BMW, Mercedes Benzs and Porsches to see that kids these days live a lifestyle that bears no resemblence to what a lot of us grew up under.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):

I for one think that a lot (not all) of people feel that they need two incomes to survive because they want to live a certain lifestyle.

 checkmark 

That's an excellent point! I've lived a "poor" lifestyle in reference to those tangible things. I never got a large TV (19 inches at most), never got an allowance, and certainly never got any expensive shoes. We had a place in town that I spent time at for about 4 hours a day, and a cabin in the woods that, though it had running water and alternate electricity, had no lines running too it, and we often burned lanterns to save money. While most people would have found this "painful," I learned about technology in town and learned to appreciate the OTHER things in life (fishing, spending time with my loved ones, etc.) so that I was not hooked on getting the "next best thing" from watching silly commercials all the day long. This was a rather spartan life, but any time I would have friends up they would love it....so now I find myself loving time more than money, and find that your point is very true. We live in a society of debt, and that is one of the great downfalls. Debt can only keep a show running for so long before the whole thing collapses.

Even our country is in debt. Heck, our government buys 52% of it's own treasury debt back, and it's run by...the people. source here

Lucas
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:47 am

I have no cell phone
Over the air TV
no car payment
Nothing Nice save my camera which was a 1 time investment
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767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
It's a Tier 1 help desk position for pete's sake.

In DeLand.

(Calculated as Daytona Beach on this salary wizard since DeLand was not an option.)

http://nytimes.salary.com/costoflivi...de=50&newworkmetrocode=50&x=57&y=3

$1,225 net change in disposable income

-9% change in cost of living from Orlando to Daytona Beach with -4% increase in salary
 
PLANAR
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:37 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Shit I could move to India and do better  

LOL!! Believe me, the competition over there is more fierce than you can ever imagine! I know that coz I hail from the country.

This year the entrance exams for the prestigious engineering schools in India (comparable to the Ivy leagues in America) has over 17 kids fighting out for a single seat.

And this is just the statistics after the students eligible to write the exam are filtered out of the total number of applicants!

[Edited 2007-03-23 01:52:30]
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
Now the kids in middle school know as much as anyone.

My ass they do!

It was a deliberate exaggeration on my part. However, the point is that today there is an abundance of computer literate people, and the number is constantly rising. Our office has a small network, about 20 workstations, and our computer guy often sends his teenage son when we have a problem. This high school student knows his stuff.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
. If you choose to be a computer technician (which paid well some years ago) but now have to compete with 15 million other guys with exactly the same education as you, sorry, but you made a bad choice.

That's the point I was trying to make; computer techs are not hard to find....

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
I'm not a Bush fan, but I fail to see how this job, or its pay scale, is his fault.

Him allowing his cronies to ship the tech jobs overseas.

And exactly how does the Executive Branch of the US government stop that???

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
I think that this begs the question, are people spending the money on the same sort of stuff? How many families that need to incomes to survive do you know that have roomfuls of flatscreen TV's, XBoxes, stereos, 200 channels of cable TV, XM radio subscriptions, Ipods, $100 sneakers, Coach handbags, $70/person cell phone plans with unlimited text messaging and expensive cars in the drive ways. How many two income families live in 4,000 sq ft McMansions and fight daily to keep up with the Joneses? How many people own boats that they can afford and take vacations that are beyond their means. How many times have you walked by a family at Disney signing up for one of the vacation club properties that are a rip off.

I for one think that a lot (not all) of people feel that they need two incomes to survive because they want to live a certain lifestyle.

You're so right, and most of those things are probably purchased on credit. I'll freely admit I live better than my income would suggest because I refuse to borrow money. I tried that once more than 30 years ago, and learned a good lesson. I swore that I'dl get out of debt and stay that way; except for my mortgage, I buy nothing unless I have the cash on hand to pay for it. And I do have some of the stuff you mentioned.... The only point is, I wouldn't have half that stuff except for having no debt....

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 34):
In DeLand.

(Calculated as Daytona Beach on this salary wizard since DeLand was not an option.)

http://nytimes.salary.com/costoflivi...de=50&newworkmetrocode=50&x=57&y=3

$1,225 net change in disposable income

-9% change in cost of living from Orlando to Daytona Beach with -4% increase in salary

Deland is inland from Daytona in Volusia County; the cost of living should be even less than the figures shown for Daytona Beach...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 33):
I have no cell phone
Over the air TV
no car payment

No shirts....



 wink  Just kidding. I know you're having a tough time. Just thought I'd try to make you smile.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 19):

Personally, I'm sick to death of I.T. work being outsourced. I'm thinking of becoming an accountant (CPA, which requires a master's in TX) or maybe even a nurse. Accounting jobs can be outsourced. Nursing jobs can't...but everyone knows that so these days you have more luck getting into Harvard's business school than into a decent nursing program since everybody and their grandmother wants to be a nurse all of a sudden.

Nursing jobs can be very, very lucrative. Actually, one of my relatives has her Associate's in Nursing. She has her state license and basic life support certifications. No specialty certifications, not bilingual, no Bachelor's Degree, only works weekends and works a regular floor. On about ten years of experience, she makes about $55 an hour, closer to $60 on night shift.

I guess it's George Bush that gave her a job where she can make $34,000 a year by working 12 hours a week (about a third of what the average blue collar worker works)?
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 37):
No shirts....

No service  Wink

Actually (Underwear aside) I haven't had new clothes in about 2 years.

Thanks for the effort.
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halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
I for one think that a lot (not all) of people feel that they need two incomes to survive because they want to live a certain lifestyle.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
My point in all of this is that a lot of people who say they NEED two incomes to survive only NEED this second income because of the choices they make. I'm completely behind anyone's right to chose to live as bigs as they want, but then they shouldn't complain that they can't afford to make it on just one salary.

When I was growing up in southern california in the 60's we weren't one of the most well off families on the block. We had one car where everyone else had two, we were the last to get color TV, we didn't take extravagant vacations, and my brothers wore a lot of my hand me downs. My Mom didn't go to work until my sister was in junior high school - after I left for college, and her income was used for savings and a little bit better quality of life. In other words, we lived within our means. And we didn't suffer.

The result? My parents are enjoying a very comfortable retirement, free from money worries - even though my Dad never went to college and worked in an oil refinery most of his working life.

Recently my daughter had twins. She and her husband went car shopping, looking at large SUV's. When she saw the prices and figured out what the monthly payments would be, she and her husband decided that sticking with the 4 year old Honda Civic for a little while longer wasn't such a bad idea.

Many people in financial difficulty might not be in extremis if they just scaled down their desires to match their incomes.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N174UA
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
(Seriously) Can you prove this? Though I think W. can SHARE the blame for allowing it to continue, I'd like to be accurate and if Clinton deserves more bashing, then hey we all win

Well...how different would things be with China if Clinton hadn't signed that agreement? He also signed NAFTA, so imagine if that hadn't gone though as well. So we can put the blame on Clinton for all this, but then Nixon too for that matter, since was the one who established ties with China in 1972 to begin with. So now we have both a Republican and a Democrat to blame.

What could W have realistically done? Impose protectionist trade barriers that only hurts U.S. consumers? Let the market dictate wage rates and prices for goods and services. Anytime the government tries to regulate it, it just gets worse.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 30):
When did employers stop thinking of their employees as people and start thinking of them as disposable machines? I think it's when they changed the name of the Personnel Department to "Human Resources."

Good point. I don't want the US to go the way of some European countries where it's impossible to fire someone even if they're incompetent, but I don't want to be as disposable as Kleenex either. There has to be some middle ground here.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 35):
This year the entrance exams for the prestigious engineering schools in India (comparable to the Ivy leagues in America) has over 17 kids fighting out for a single seat.

And this is just the statistics after the students eligible to write the exam are filtered out of the total number of applicants!

The Indians I worked with in the US who were there on H1-B visas were all more technically competent than most of their American counterparts, they worked harder, and they never complained about anything. They probably went to prestigious schools; they were definitely very smart and their English was superb.

The problems I see with outsourcing are definitely real...leaving aside the obvious problems of trying to manage and communicate with a team from 10,000 miles away, the software that is returned usually requires more re-work than work done by onshore teams...and a lot of the time the onshore teams are half-Indian anyway. It has nothing to do with them being Indian and everything to do with getting what you pay for. If you pay someone $20 a day to program software, it's just not going to be very good. With all the offshore companies working in India, they can't all be hiring the best and brightest. My company definitely doesn't...here OR there!

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 38):
Nursing jobs can be very, very lucrative. Actually, one of my relatives has her Associate's in Nursing. She has her state license and basic life support certifications. No specialty certifications, not bilingual, no Bachelor's Degree, only works weekends and works a regular floor. On about ten years of experience, she makes about $55 an hour, closer to $60 on night shift.

I guess it's George Bush that gave her a job where she can make $34,000 a year by working 12 hours a week (about a third of what the average blue collar worker works)?

I have to admit I have given it very serious consideration at several points over the last few years, but it's not the money I'd be interested it...it's the job security and being able to help people. I know, sounds cheesy....but that is what motivates some people. I feel like I'm not helping anyone doing what I do; I'm just helping one of the UK's biggest companies keep track of how much money they're losing. That's about it.

I don't think Dubya has anything to do with her job or her salary; it's simple supply and demand. They need a lot more nurses in the USA, and there aren't enough of them to fill the jobs. They're recruiting from overseas; I know a couple of NHS nurses here who have made the move to the USA and have tripled their standard of living pretty much overnight. They love it. It's supposed to be one of the fastest-growing fields out there, and they can't outsource nurses to India or China. I hear it's one of the only fields that has basically almost 100% job security. That plus helping people sounds good to me.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:30 pm

In my experience, you get paid what you're worth. If you accept less than you think you should, then you may want to rethink your profession.

A job is a position dependent on someone else's good graces and efforts. It's not a right nor is it an entitlement. The opportunity is there, and if you accept one that can be done for less than you're demanding then expect competition....just like your employer faces.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
I know what you mean. They're horseshit, low paying jobs.

Real jobs that don't disappear with a tech bubble that's providing horseshit jobs that pay high because investors aren't asking what's going on....

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
nd Bush proudly gloats about creating these new jobs. To him, a job is a job and the wage/salary isn't important.

His tax reductions freed up enough money for me to create two companies over the last 4 years that employ 12 people, mostly making better than 30-40K each, with a couple of them earning commissions and salaries over 100K.

If you guys can't get a job then do something about it.....stop blaming the government. Government doesn't make jobs...they reduce obstacles and free up money...and that's only after it's created the obstacles and glommed up the money.


Oh, and if overseas workers are coming here to take jobs and they're working for less, welcome to the history of the United States. The people bitching about Indians or any other immigrant group sound like the ones whining about the Irish coming in.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:06 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 41):
Impose protectionist trade barriers that only hurts U.S. consumers?

How is preventing employers from sending jobs overseas a barrier to TRADE?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):
Oh, and if overseas workers are coming here to take jobs and they're working for less, welcome to the history of the United States. The people bitching about Indians or any other immigrant group sound like the ones whining about the Irish coming in.

I don't have a problem with them coming here and doing better. As a matter of fact I have a ton of respect for anyone who can move to a foreign country and make something of themselves. My problem is that the work that is being off shored could EASILY be done here for equal the total cost using fewer employees, and the jobs would be contributing to the US economy, not the Indian/pan Asian economies.
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disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
How is preventing employers from sending jobs overseas a barrier to TRADE?

I think he means it will increase the price of goods and services overall.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
How is preventing employers from sending jobs overseas a barrier to TRADE?

Those workers do something, whether that something is to build things or provide services. If the global market place, absent government regulation, makes it more attractive to build something or provide a service in Country X rather than the US, then by definition any government action by the US that reduces or eliminates that advantage is a barrier to FREE trade.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
My problem is that the work that is being off shored could EASILY be done here for equal the total cost using fewer employees, and the jobs would be contributing to the US economy, not the Indian/pan Asian economies.

Then put together a consulting group that proves that theory and sell it using the marketing angle that the Big 3 automakers are trying to figure out......made in America......

Keep in mind that there is turbulence in every country about jobs and offshore economic impacts. The global economy is happening and if we don't get ahead in it now we're going to be overtaken in 50 years by a couple of Asian giants I could mention. If only 10% of the total populations of the PRC and India achieve middle class standards then that segment of their markets are going to outpopulate us completely. We have to stay in the game globally in order to keep our economy strong.

Mad about the economy here because you as an individual are having trouble getting exactly what you want does not make the topic line accurate.

Our economy is running great guns, DJIA over 12000 (after a large correction) and unemployment under 5%. Christ...go get another job or start your own deal.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:19 pm

I am self employed and 2006 was my best year in 8 years. Of course, I pay out the wazoo in taxes, but at least the gross income number is impressive!
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Economy? Bull....!

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 47):
now we're going to be overtaken in 50 years by a couple of Asian giants I could mention.

Economically? Who the eff cares?

Are we THAT insecure in our collective manhood that we have to force a nation of 300 million to compete against nations of billions and 'win'? So long as everyone has a job and provides for their responsibilities who cares? What's the prize?
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