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UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 149):
Interesting that Edwards himself said that it is entirely legitimate to question his decision to run:

Not to mention that he said himself his decision to run in the first place was predicated on his wife's health. Now he's done a 180 on that.

I don't find it at all out of line to question him on that.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 150):
Not to mention that he said himself his decision to run in the first place was predicated on his wife's health. Now he's done a 180 on that.

I don't find it at all out of line to question him on that.

Yeah, but there were some here who totally chewed me and a couple of others on here a new one for saying anything.

Of course, now that Edwards himself said it was a legitimate concern befitting of a Presidential race, those posters are notably quiet.

Figures.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 151):
Of course, now that Edwards himself said it was a legitimate concern befitting of a Presidential race, those posters are notably quiet.

Figures.

Speaking for myself (only), I can say this:

1. This thread was dead 2 days ago. The last few posts have been like poking at a dead animal to see if it twitches.

2. I don't think Edwards' recent comment validates anyone's position on here - on either side. It doesn't change my view of his decision, and it apparently doesn't change yours either.

3. The fact remains that I (and others) were curious about the possibilities, while others were closed-minded and unsympathetic to anything but the worst possible view of Edwards. I cannot see anywhere in this thread where that has changed.

4. His comment that it's understandable to question their decision is a demonstration of tolerance and understanding on his part. I keep waiting for some of the judgmental ones to acknowledge that, and perhaps learn from it.
Blank.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 151):

I can guess who.

Probably the same people who think you ought not ever be able to question a Democrat.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 152):
This thread was dead 2 days ago. The last few posts have been like poking at a dead animal to see if it twitches.

Well, your a Mod, lock it then. It hasn't stopped Mods from doing that before, especially when they lose an argument.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 152):
The fact remains that I (and others) were curious about the possibilities, while others were closed-minded and unsympathetic to anything but the worst possible view of Edwards. I cannot see anywhere in this thread where that has changed.

So what! Why can't people just debate, for the sake of debate. I find it interesting that the close-minded and unsympathetic take the worst possible view of Edwards in this case. (Diamond your bias is showing) People can Bash Bush all day, calling him all kinds of things because of his political decision yet when Edwards makes a political decision we need to be sympathetic. If there is one thing I've learned reading history its that political families are ALWAYS thinking politically in every private thing they do. Or at least when they don't the political ramifications quickly come to mind.

Nothing gets solved in the Civ-av forum with the endless Dreamliner v A380 threads. Just let people talk.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 153):
Well, your a Mod, lock it then. It hasn't stopped Mods from doing that before, especially when they lose an argument.

There are no winners in this situation. I am not declaring myself a winner (or a loser) here. Are you ???

If you sincerely wish the thread to be locked, please send in an SD to that effect and make sure to explain why.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 153):
Diamond your bias is showing

Perhaps. But it isn't a bias in favor of Edwards' politics. It is a bias in favor of being open-minded to more than one possibility, and being willing to consider as many possibilities as there may be. To be honest, Edwards is not my first or second choice for the Democratic nomination. I wouldn't be thrilled about voting for him. So if you want to call me biased, make sure it's for the right reason.
Blank.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 151):
Of course, now that Edwards himself said it was a legitimate concern befitting of a Presidential race, those posters are notably quiet.

This is an internet board, not a dining table where the same people show up every night. A few weeks ago I went out to lunch and ended up buying a new computer. I didn't make another post for 5 days while I got things setup and played with it for a bit. That happens to people. Sometimes people go away, or just have said everything they have to say.

Halfway up this thread you asked why people were so vicious, now you're asking why they're silent. You can't have it both ways, and frankly, I look at your post as provocation, because what Edwards said won't change how some people perceive some things. You could bring your screaming child into a restaurant, for instance, and think it's perfectely acceptable, while I don't, but I'm not going to further ruin my dinner by constantly walking over to your table to tell you so. Once is enough.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 153):
Well, your a Mod, lock it then.

There was another news item to post. No one "loses" by expressing their opinion. To follow things up with a current news item shouldn't be a problem. To goad people over it is.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):

There are no winners in this situation. I am not declaring myself a winner (or a loser) here.

I'm a winner champ! Look:  goldmedal 

I guess we are allowed to do that. It probably is time to lock this stinker...
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
There are no winners in this situation. I am not declaring myself a winner (or a loser) here. Are you ???

Actually I was referring to another situation in which a Mod lost and argument so they shut down the thread.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
Perhaps. But it isn't a bias in favor of Edwards' politics. It is a bias in favor of being open-minded to more than one possibility, and being willing to consider as many possibilities as there may be. To be honest, Edwards is not my first or second choice for the Democratic nomination. I wouldn't be thrilled about voting for him. So if you want to call me biased, make sure it's for the right reason.

I think I got the reason correct. First you claim you want open-mindedness, then in the same paragraph you make it pretty clear that Democrats are you're only choice.

But I was commenting on your claim that those who questioned Edwards over this were:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 152):
closed-minded and unsympathetic to anything but the worst possible view of Edwards.

I am sympathetic to Mrs Edward's illness, just as I am with Tony Snow's recently announced cancer relapse. Both will probably be fatal at this point and that is sad. But to choose to ignore the political calculations they made is naive. To excuse it, and blame others for pointing it out, is partisan.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 154):
If you sincerely wish the thread to be locked, please send in an SD to that effect and make sure to explain why.

That's twisting my words.

It was you who claimed this thread was dead two days ago, right?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 152):
This thread was dead 2 days ago. The last few posts have been like poking at a dead animal to see if it twitches.

You a Mod you have to power to close it if you feel that way. I made it perfectly clear that I'm in favor of allowing people to express their opinions on this.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 153):
So what! Why can't people just debate, for the sake of debate

So the thread rumbles on...
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 157):
... I am sympathetic to Mrs Edward's illness ...

And what about Mr. Edwards?

What about his decision to continue campaigning?
Blank.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:49 am

Before the news shocker I wrote this:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 10):
Sad to hear about his wife. It's not wholly unexpected though, he said himself his decision to run was based on his wife's health now that that has deteriorated it stands to reason he would drop out.

So now that he is continuing his run?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 153):
If there is one thing I've learned reading history its that political families are ALWAYS thinking politically in every private thing they do. Or at least when they don't the political ramifications quickly come to mind.

I've covered what I think of his decision.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 151):
Yeah, but there were some here who totally chewed me and a couple of others on here a new one for saying anything

No we did not. It was not for "saying anything." It was for concluding that his actions were selfish. I totally agree that it is legitimate to question whether this is the best decision to make; however I do not think it fair to conclude that the decision was a selfish one without having more knowledge of who said what during the course of making that decision. Big difference here.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 160):
I do not think it fair to conclude that the decision was a selfish one without having more knowledge of who said what during the course of making that decision. Big difference here.

Okey dokey, Smokey.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 24):
"John Edwards is selfish and cares more for his political aspirations then his wife" out of the other.

Disgusting, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. If you look deep inside, you know the real reason you say such things.



Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Will you, Pope and 767Lover stop rushing to judgment here??!?!?!?!?!?!



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 77):
Since she is his top advisor, official or otherwise, maybe you should consider that it was HER priority, but I guess that's too much for your mind to fathom.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 80):
A real possibility. But it's assinine for a bunch of armchair neocons to sit on here bashing someone for their own decision.

Do you guys want to reconsider your comments in light of this piece out of the Washington Post?
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleut...2007/04/edwards_raising_money.html

Seems to me that the Edwards are using Elizabeth's illness as a fundraising tool. I guess the "neocon's " hit the nail on the head when they raised questions about Edward's motivations.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 162):

You don't seriously think those guys are going to answer you do you?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
You don't seriously think those guys are going to answer you do you?

Nope. After criticizing anyone who even insinuated that the Edwards would try to use this for political advantage, the lefties on this forum seem to have gone very quiet on this issue.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Canc

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:53 pm

My question was/is...

1) if she's "feeling great" and "has a good prognosis,"
2) is going to work on his campaign as normal, and
3) he is not dropping out,

...then why did they have a full blown press conference about her health in the first place?

It seems like this could have been addressed in a simple press release (or just ad-hoc on the media trail) if it indeed were a non issue.

It didn't make any sense to me.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 165):
It seems like this could have been addressed in a simple press release (or just ad-hoc on the media trail) if it indeed were a non issue.

It didn't make any sense to me.

Your absolutely right! It doesn't make sense.

Unless...

"When you visit the John Edwards for President Web site, you're invited to send a sympathy note to the Edwardses. And tens of thousands of well wishers have done so since that heart-wrenching news conference two weeks ago at which Elizabeth Edwards courageously discussed her incurable cancer.

What those well wishers get in return -- e-mail messages soliciting contributions to Edwards's campaign."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleut...2007/04/edwards_raising_money.html

Does that clear it up for you?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 162):
Do you guys want to reconsider your comments in light of this piece out of the Washington Post?
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleut...2007/04/edwards_raising_money.html

Seems to me that the Edwards are using Elizabeth's illness as a fundraising tool.

Not really. The fundraising letter contains nothing relating to Elizabeth's illness, and in this day and age, people have no excuses for not being able to take themselves off a mass-mailing list.

Mountain out of a molehill.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 167):
The fundraising letter contains nothing relating to Elizabeth's illness, and in this day and age, people have no excuses for not being able to take themselves off a mass-mailing list.

I think you miss a salient point Mir.

" you're invited to send a sympathy note to the Edwardses. And tens of thousands of well wishers have done so since that heart-wrenching news conference two weeks ago at which Elizabeth Edwards courageously discussed her incurable cancer.

What those well wishers get in return -- e-mail messages soliciting contributions to Edwards' campaign"

So according to the Washington Post, by offering sympathy to Elizabeth Edwards you are automatically hit up for a donation in return.

The Edwards campaign connects the two. You can't tell me that the email is sending out responses accidentally. The Sympathy Note button on the Edwards website is separate from thw Donation button. Hence two lists are created. Hence the return email to the well wishers is deliberate.

I don't think anyone can spin this one.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 168):
Hence the return email to the well wishers is deliberate.

Gee, you think? You think that any political campaign would refuse the opportunity to try and pick up some money? People who send sympathy notes are more likely than not at least a little interested in the election, and there's a chance that they might be Edwards supporters, regardless of whether or not Mrs. Edwards had cancer or not. At the very least they've shown interest in the campaign (like it or not, Mrs. Edwards' cancer is now a part of it), and that makes them potential contributors.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 168):
I don't think anyone can spin this one.

No spin necessary. It is what it is. Sure, it's not absolutely scrupulous, but what campaign's fundraising is?

Again, much ado about nothing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 169):
You think that any political campaign would refuse the opportunity to try and pick up some money?

You might want to ask the guys Pope quoted.

Quoting Pope (Reply 162):
Quoting B777-700 (Reply 24):
"John Edwards is selfish and cares more for his political aspirations then his wife" out of the other.

Disgusting, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. If you look deep inside, you know the real reason you say such things.



Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Will you, Pope and 767Lover stop rushing to judgment here??!?!?!?!?!?!



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 77):
Since she is his top advisor, official or otherwise, maybe you should consider that it was HER priority, but I guess that's too much for your mind to fathom.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 80):
A real possibility. But it's assinine for a bunch of armchair neocons to sit on here bashing someone for their own decision.

Some of us thought this was political opportunism. But John Edwards and Elizabeth Edwards wouldn't do that would they. Those that even thought it were roundly chastised. But you Mir seem to think that it's just fine.

So excuse me if I'm confused. Is it smart politics to take advantage of Elizabeth Edwards' cancer for donations? If so, why then is it tasteless to recognize it when it happens?

[Edited 2007-04-05 20:04:34]
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
Is it smart politics to take advantage of Elizabeth Edwards' cancer for donations?



It wouldn't be, if they were doing it. But unless I missed something, and the letter asks for money so that Edwards can win the presidency out of sympathy for what he's had to go through with his wife's illness (that would be tasteless), all they're doing is asking people who have already shown interest, out of their own volition, whether they want to contribute to the campaign based solely on Edwards' platforms.

Is it opportunism? You obviously say it is. But remember that when talking about polticians, the scale changes, since there is not one politician in this country (and I'd venture to say on this planet) that isn't at least a little bit of an opportunist - if they weren't, they wouldn't survive in politics. The question, therefore (at least in my mind), becomes whether John Edwards is any more opportunistic than your average politician. I haven't seen anything that would suggest to me that he is, and I still believe that the reason he is still in the race is because he and Elizabeth feel that they do not want to see an illness derail what they have both been working for for so long, not because he thinks he can make some more money off of his wife's condition. In fact, as mentioned in the article that Pope posted, it says that "while Edwards has enjoyed a big surge in donations since he and his wife disclosed the return of her cancer, the campaign has not mentioned the "C" word in any of its fundraising solicitations. In fact, an e-mail sent to supporters on March 22, the day of their famous news conference, omitted the usual link to contribute money." So it would appear that they are going out of their way to avoid collecting donations purely out of sympathy.

Perhaps the author of the article checked the box at the bottom of the page ( http://www.johnedwards.com/news/thank-you-20070322/ ) that says "check here to recieve further emails from the campaign" - I saw nothing in the article to indicate that she did or didn't, though I have sent a message and not checked the box in order to test the theory.

If you want to dub him tasteless, fine, but it's going to take more than this to convince me that John Edwards is using his wife's condition to gain money.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 171):
Is it opportunism? You obviously say it is. But remember that when talking about politicians, the scale changes, since there is not one politician in this country (and I'd venture to say on this planet) that isn't at least a little bit of an opportunist - if they weren't, they wouldn't survive in politics. The question, therefore (at least in my mind), becomes whether John Edwards is any more opportunistic than your average politician.

My problem comes not from John Edwards opportunism or not. I agree he's a politician. They are all opportunists.

My problem comes from the fact that when this was pointed out by others, I never said anything about it if you read my first post, they were attacked by the liberals here on a.net. The usual suspects had a field day.

Now there is this article from the Washington Post, not Drudge or FOX or any outlet the lefties here mistrust, that proves the initial skepticism was warranted.

Where are the usual suspects now? I know where B777-700 is he got himself banned. But Falcon84 hasn't made a peep on this subject since the story came out. These are the people who call conservatives narrow and closed minded, yet when conservatives display skepticism about one of their candidates, it'd tasteless, heartless, and disgusting. Seems to me the only skepticism that is tolerated by liberals is skepticism about conservatives, everything liberal must be taken on faith.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Elizabeth Edwards Diagnosed With Stage IV Cancer

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 172):
Now there is this article from the Washington Post, not Drudge or FOX or any outlet the lefties here mistrust, that proves the initial skepticism was warranted.

Skepticism is always warranted. What takes more evidence is drawing these type of conclusions:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
Is it smart politics to take advantage of Elizabeth Edwards' cancer for donations? If so, why then is it tasteless to recognize it when it happens?

There are others, but the thread is long and I'm short on time. I think you know the type of response I'm thinking of. And as far as I'm concerned, for reasons I described in my last post (the campaign deliberately trying to distance themselves from the cancer), I don't think that there's enough evidence to prove that Edwards actually is trying to take advantage of his wife's condition. That doesn't mean he isn't - I'm naturally distrusting in politicians, but I also recognize that one is innocent until proven guilty. But since there's no court of law to try Edwards in, each individual person must decide how much evidence it would take to prove someone guilty in their eyes. If this article is enough for you, even though it includes some strong evidence against that case, that is your right, but I would regard that decision as being based on highly unstable grounds, and I would urge you not to make that claim until you had more evidence supporting it.

I can only speak for myself, but I think you'll find that it's not the skepticism that many found to be objectionable, it's the drawing of conclusions without much evidence. Instead of asking "is he making this decision selfishly?", simply declaring "he is making this decision selfishly," and in some cases even extending that to "he is selfish". That is what is objectionable in my eyes, and that fact that such things are being said about a highly personal decision in which there is no universally right answer (or no universally wrong answer, depending on the way you look at it) only magnifies it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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