Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 41):
I have been on an ICE doing over 300km/h and it definitely tilted.

That's because the tracks have built-in tilt on some turns.
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:57 am

Does anyone know what kind of security devices they will have along the railway line to prevent some kind of sabotage. A crash at that speed would be absolutely devastating.

Most railway lines that I can think of, even in Europe, are fairly easy to access.
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
walter747
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:49 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:18 am

I am traveling on the TGV from Nice to Paris next April. I can't wait.  bouncy 
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 20):
but since the Germans were the ones who built the tilting Acela based on their ICE trains which apparently also tilt, they too use technology to compensate for the tighter turns of an older infrastructure.

Actually the Acela was built by Bombardier, but otherwise you're spot on.

The tracks in Rhode Island are where the train reaches its top speed (150 mph/245 km/h). Also the areas between the Rhode Island border and Route 128 station just south of Boston the train averages 100-110 mph (160-175 km/h). It's once you enter Connecticut that the train has to slow down due to the frequent curves in the track as the train follows the coast and then of course as it enters the New York metro area. I don't see why the train couldn't speed along through parts of NJ and Maryland.

Unfortunately, the Acela is a great idea but implemented in a country that doesn't want to invest in its rail infrastructure. Though the Acela is the only profitable route for Amtrak. I imagine one day they could really invest to make another route for the train that would allow it to take a more northerly route turning southwest after Providence and do a relative beeline for New Haven. Between a more direct route between Providence and central Connecticut and high-speed tracks that could cut the travel time between Boston and New York to around 2h15, which would then give the Acela a HUGE advantage over air travel. In fact, I'd go on to say that if they could shave that much time off the train, it'd effectively kill the shuttles. But that's only if people are REALLY ready to invest in the rail system.

Also, things like why does it take 6 hours for the train to go what a car would do in 2 in places that are not populated in Texas and such? That'd certainly boost ridership in the face of rising gas prices.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
OceansWorld
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 53):
The tracks in Rhode Island are where the train reaches its top speed (150 mph/245 km/h). Also the areas between the Rhode Island border and Route 128 station just south of Boston the train averages 100-110 mph (160-175 km/h). It's once you enter Connecticut that the train has to slow down due to the frequent curves in the track as the train follows the coast and then of course as it enters the New York metro area. I don't see why the train couldn't speed along through parts of NJ and Maryland.

A major difference between Amtrak's Acela Express and some of the comprehensive high-speed systems in other industrialized countries is that the Acela Express was envisioned and designed as an incremental improvement over existing conventional trains. In contrast to Europe and Japan, without a clear federal policy on high-speed rail, this choice was made out of necessity driven by economics and practicality. The economics resulted from long-term US public policy that favoured building Interstate highways for fast and easy travel by private automobile between cities. The highway trust fund, financed by relatively low taxes on petroleum and diesel fuels, could not be touched for construction of intercity passenger railway lines. From a practical standpoint, even if money was available, the process of building a new right-of-way though the most densely populated region of the US would require acquisition of billions of dollars worth of real estate and litigation with the potential for decades of delay.
Consequently, the Acela Express would have to be able to operate over a 19th century alignment that could not support a dedicated track, such as that used by the French TGV or Japanese shinkansen. Nonetheless, the track, signals and power supply had to be upgraded and well maintained in order to realize the benefits of the new train's high-performance capabilities. Concrete ties and continuously welded rail had already been installed on some NEC sections during the 1980s, but more needed to be done.


Source:
The Acela Express
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 48):
Quoting Marcus (Reply 42):

One little problem: The Rocky Mountains. There is no way a high speed train can navigate through those mountains on the current system. Also, these trains would have to be electrified, as any pollution admissions would be unacceptable due to the extremely long length some of the tunnels that would have to be built (therefore, built up of CO2 etc). There are other problems as well (no electricity in the middle of the Great Plains, etc.)

There are ways around this, but the costs would be staggering.

Please read the whole discussion on the thread [High Speed Trains vs. Air Traffic] on Civil Aviation and let's move on from "But in the US our landscape is three dimensional" chestnut.

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...al_aviation/read.main/3299861/1/#1

Quote:
Quoting Spacecadet: [High Speed Trains vs. Air Traffic] If we can't even invest in high speed rail where we *know* it makes sense, then why are we so trusting of those that tell us it doesn't make sense in other areas? We haven't even *tried* it. We really have no idea. What we *do* know is that it works in every other industrialized country, including all of Europe with a land-mass as large as our own. We also know that the limited high-speed service we have here, despite being comparatively slow, using unreliable equipment that's often late even on its generous schedule, is both profitable and often sold out. The fact is people like high speed rail and they have proven that, even in the United States. So I don't buy it when people say real high speed rail wouldn't work here. The only reason it won't work here is because there are people in positions of power who have an *interest* in it not working here.

There are many corridors in the US where high speed rail would work. The NEC is just one of them.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 41):

I have been on an ICE doing over 300km/h and it definitely tilted.

Have you by any chance been too long at the on board bar?  Wink The ICE 3 or Valaro does not tilt.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 50):

That's because the tracks have built-in tilt on some turns.

pelican
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 53):
Though the Acela is the only profitable route for Amtrak.

Amtrak is actually very profitable in the DC-Philly-NY-Boston Corridor. Regular Amtrak service in this area does well enough to help prop up the other dead wood around the system.

HSR ought to come to the US. I'd love it. I really do think that it is at a disadvantage over long haul. The record breaking run was witnessed by an American investor group looking to build a HSR linking San Diego-LA-San Francisco and Sacramento. I think thats a great idea. California ought to build it and connect the central valley to it.

To say if the US wanted it we'd build it isn't so simple. True when the Americans put their minds to it we find ways to do it. We put a man on the moon. France hasn't. But in general with something like this it has to be profitable. France has a culture that allows for heavy public subsidies until something like this HSR network could become profitable on its own. The US doesn't.

So the US has a limited amount of routes where HSR makes sense and Amtrak put HSR there. Until it become profitable enough to straighten out the route, US rail speeds will be limited.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 57):
To say if the US wanted it we'd build it isn't so simple. True when the Americans put their minds to it we find ways to do it. We put a man on the moon. France hasn't. But in general with something like this it has to be profitable. France has a culture that allows for heavy public subsidies until something like this HSR network could become profitable on its own. The US doesn't.

Wouldn't you say the Interstate network is "something like this HSR network"? Wouldn't you say the US has a culture that not only allows for heavy public subsidies of this network, but which doesn't ever ask for or expect it to be profitable on its own or at all. The US has a culture of heavy public subsidies for certain things today that are deemed by accepted wisdom as being 'essential' or in the national interest. The only difference with France is what SOME of those things are.

BTW, the AutoRoutes in France are all user-pays  Smile
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 58):
Wouldn't you say the Interstate network is "something like this HSR network"? Wouldn't you say the US has a culture that not only allows for heavy public subsidies of this network, but which doesn't ever ask for or expect it to be profitable on its own or at all. The US has a culture of heavy public subsidies for certain things today that are deemed by accepted wisdom as being 'essential' or in the national interest. The only difference with France is what SOME of those things are.

Thank you - I was just about to post exactly the same argument...!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 58):
BTW, the AutoRoutes in France are all user-pays

It seems it's more a matter of priorities.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 58):
Wouldn't you say the US has a culture that not only allows for heavy public subsidies of this network, but which doesn't ever ask for or expect it to be profitable on its own or at all.

No. The Interstate Highway system is an internal improvement. Part of the Constitutional role of government to help maintain interstate commerce. However, your argument is not without precedent because it was part of the main argument of Jacksonian Democrats since the 1820s. The only guess I can make is the difference came in the 1930s during the Great Depression. This is a guess now, but the Federal Government began spending huge amounts on internal improvements, the last vestages of the 100 year old argument were sweeped away in the need to put men to work. Railroads where a relativly healthy sector of the economy so the government put people to work on other parts of the infrastructure. After World War II, the idea that railraod improvements where the responcibilty of the railroad had cemented itself.

I see where your coming from. However that's how the government answers the question. Why the difference between canals and river traffic and Harbors which the government provides support to via the Corps of Engineers, roads and even the Air Traffic Control system versus the railroads is beyond me.

On the other hand, roads, rivers, and the air are capable of being used by any company for any commercial aspect. Just like TV and Radio. While railroads are built and maintained for the exclusive use of the operator. So that may be the answer.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 60):
No. The Interstate Highway system is an internal improvement.

So is railway infrastructure.

It was simply a political choice to massively subsidize one and neglect the other.

The same has actually happened in Germany as well, just to a somewhat lesser degree, with a partial resurgence in recent years. But the fundamental imbalance (complete subsidy for road traffic while generally expecting rail to pay for its tracks itself) still exists.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 61):
So is railway infrastructure.

Not according to the US Constitution. The more I think about this the more I think this is why there is a difference.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 60):
On the other hand, roads, rivers, and the air are capable of being used by any company for any commercial aspect. Just like TV and Radio. While railroads are built and maintained for the exclusive use of the operator. So that may be the answer.

US Law has decided that the Electromagnetic Spectrum, Rivers, Oceans, the Sky and Roads, are public property. There is a legal concept that I'm blanking on, something like "free use" anyway if the something can't be owned outright, like the sky, or the Spectrum, or a river or harbor, then The government picks up the responsibility of maintain it and regulating it. Roads have a free use. Anyone with a car and a licence can use them. Anyone with a truck can haul freight on them competitors can drive side-by side on the same road.

Railroad infrastructure on the other had is owned by the railroad itself for its exclusive use. Competitors have to build there own route. Which is why in the glory days of railroad travel there was the Pennsylvania Railroad to Chicago out of Penn Station and the NY Central out of Grand Central Station. If you've ever ridden MTA out to the NY suburbs you know the two don't link up. If I owned a train I couldn't use it without paying a railroad if I wanted to go coast to coast. There aren't even private toll roads anymore to the best of my knowledge. That's the difference.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6796
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 19):
good quality video can be found here:

http://tv.repubblica.it/multimedia/h...=hpmm

Wow, I finally got a moment to watch this. It was amazing, sounded I swear like Concorde flying over the house.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6796
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 18):
Here's the midday news from France 2 covering the event today:

http://jt.france2.fr/13h/ Coverage starts at minute 12:59pm in the bulletin. This link will be out of date tomorrow!

Any way to save that? Would love to show the wife tomorrow. She enjoyed Paris-Lyon
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Marcus (Reply 46):
Yes I know this, but these are commuter trains and not in the same league as an ICE or a TGV......I think that a California north-south corridor would work, would the demand be there to compensate for the massive infrastructure needed that is a different story.

Think about it, right now you have to be at the airport 2 hours before your 50 minute flight from SAN to LAX, or your 1:30 hour flight from SAN to SFO.......on a high speed train link in California were could you be in 3 hours?

This idea of high speed rail link in Mexico linking MEX-QRO-GDL has been on the drawing board for years, it is the massive investment needed and the good bus links between these cities that have made this project less viable.

You can get a train from SD all the way to SF, and there are links between Sacramento and SF. They're slow, cumbersome trains though...not zippy high-speed trains. You can get a train that goes from Dallas to San Antonio, but the train only goes once a day and takes all day to get from D to SA, which is why nobody takes it. You can get there faster if you drive than if you take the train. I'm all for high-speed rail links all over the US, but the airlines would raise hell.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 41):
I have been on an ICE doing over 300km/h and it definitely tilted.

That's because the track is superelevated. One track is often 4 up to 8 inches (in Japan i beleive) higher than the other one on bends.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5797
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 47):
Can you imagine how much faster it would go if it were made with German technology????

Do I smell jealousy?
Don't make me mention Formula 1... Big grin



(Although there might be less to gloat about this year....., where's the Malaysia GP thread anyway?)
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 68):

Just tell him that the French need faster trains than the Germans...

so they can lbe ahead of them the next time the Germans invade.





I kid of course.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
usair320
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:53 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:34 am

I always knew the TGV would so it one day. I rode the TGV back in 2002 beetween Paris Gare du Lyon and Aix en provence and back. In fact on the way back we had a double decker. Hopefully my natinal(well co-national) train will be next: The spanish AVE.
 
baw2198
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 62):
There aren't even private toll roads anymore to the best of my knowledge.

Ohio, Penna, Indiana, Chicago, NY all have tolls for the turnpikes ( I 90, 80, 70, 295, 76 etc)


The last private toll in the country I think was the St. Francis bridge down near keokuk iowa going to missouri. The town had a small booth on the south end of the bridge with some very crusty toll takers employed by the town.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 71):
Ohio, Penna, Indiana, Chicago, NY all have tolls for the turnpikes

All owned by the State they are in. BTW you forgot the Jersey Turnpike.

The Turnpike commissions are not private institutions, but state run corporations.

BTW I did a little research to bolster my claim.

The Burlington County Bridge Commission in NJ is a private company which owns two draw bridges in Burllington Co. The Tacony-Palmyra Bridge and the Burlington-Bristol Bridge. The state is responsible for maintenance on the roads leading up to the bridges. Maintenance on the rest of the bridges and toll plazas is the responsibility of the Corporation.

This follows the assertion that I made that railroads are not part of the state infra-structure because the tracks and right of ways are for the exclusive use of the Railroad. And that the interstate highway system IS part of the state infra-structure because of it's free use to anyone.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
That's fast, but I highly doubt they can run that speed with a fully loaded train.

That is not the point of these runs. The higher your maximum, the higher the cruise, its a ratio thing. All things equal, double the mass of the record run shoud have a max of 406kmph and triple shoud have a max of 332kmph.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
baw2198
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:06 am

Cool, didn't know anything about the bristol bridge. Interesting to know.

Its just to bad that the railroads lobby congress so hard to kill amtrak even though congress gives the big rail companies money for allowing amtrak to run on their rails. Makes me sick. 2 presidents ago with amtrak, amtrak was making money. It seems that anytime amtrak gets somebody at the top who starts to turn amtrak around gets fired. Anybody else notice that?
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:10 pm

Here's the best vid !


574,8 Km/h World rail speed record 2007
envoyé par V150_
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8139
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:20 am

While the speed record of 574 km/h is most impressive, you can forget about that in daily service. That's because beyond 300 km/h, the physical contact force between the overhead wiring with the train pantographs and the steel wheels with the steel rails are ENORMOUS, which requires very expensive metallurgy and lots of careful maintanence to make it work. I don't see steel-rail trains going faster than 350 km/h for this reason.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 75):
While the speed record of 574 km/h is most impressive, you can forget about that in daily service. That's because beyond 300 km/h, the physical contact force between the overhead wiring with the train pantographs and the steel wheels with the steel rails are ENORMOUS, which requires very expensive metallurgy and lots of careful maintanence to make it work. I don't see steel-rail trains going faster than 350 km/h for this reason.

Well SNCF forgot to consult you then before announcing the entire French LGV network will move to 320 then 360 km/h.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:01 am

I saw on one of the YouTube.com videos of this, I think it was recorded from CNN, the newscaster asked, "who is the market for this train?" I never really thought about the idea that the TGV's were luxury trains, I suppose it make sense that the increase in speed will have parallels to flying in Concorde compared to a subway; by how much does it cost to ride it?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 75):
I don't see steel-rail trains going faster than 350 km/h for this reason.

The Valero in Spain will start operating with a speed of 350km/h later this year. The Velaro also holds a record for the fastest non modified train with 403.7km/h . I somewhat doubt we have already reached the end of the development.
However I've read that beyond 400km/h trains become increasingly uneconomical.

pelican

BTW What happend to reply 68?
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5797
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 78):
However I've read that beyond 400km/h trains become increasingly uneconomical.

It might be a different subject altogether, but I once read a very serious scientific article stating that computer processors would never be able to be clocked above 200 Mhz because they would require liquid cooling and that would be impractical.
I know we're dealing with aerodynamics, but I can't help but think that mankind imposes its own limit on itself, especially because we can't see beyond what we imagine.

Oh shit, i'm getting all 4th grade philosophical now. Time for bed, stat....
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: 574 Kph, TGV Did It!

Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 79):
I know we're dealing with aerodynamics, but I can't help but think that mankind imposes its own limit on itself, especially because we can't see beyond what we imagine.

As you said we're dealing with aerodynamics (drag increases with the square of speed) and rolling drag, both are well researched and understood. Of course that there is a boundary approximately around 400km/h is only true for conventional train designs. But that's what I was talking about. I didn't say that train like transport systems aren't economical viable to operate beyond ~400km/h.

pelican

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], seahawk and 171 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos