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fumanchewd
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 97):
If you think that in any way such Bill is unconstitutional, you have the right [your children] to not attending such religion lessons.

But you are still paying for it with your taxes. That is why it is unconstitutional.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
102IAHexpress
Topic Author
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 96):
This bill undermines the Constitution. It's wrong.

Well, good luck pointing out the part of the US constitution that mentions a separation of Church and State.
We’re talking about an elective. If little Joey wants to take it, fine. If not that’s fine too. Please explain what cause of action a litigant would have against law that proposes a class he has no obligation to take?
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 99):
People seem to forget that the proposal is to create an ELECTIVE course, not a required one.

OK I admit I didn't read the bill. It was one of the few times that I didn't read the link.

But I oppose this bill on principle. Constitutional Principle.

This situation is one of the few where liberals and strict constructionist conservatives agree.

I'll give warning to those in Texas who consider themselves conservative and favor this.

By supporting this you weaken the Conditional arguments against Gun Control and against Abortion.

You can't argue that the Roe v. Wade is bad law and support this. You can't oppose gun control based on the Second Amendment and support this.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 99):

People seem to forget that the proposal is to create an ELECTIVE course, not a required one.

Then I don't see any irregularity with such Bill.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 74):
I am totally against this Bill. Religious classes do not belong in public schools. This goes against the secular government of the United States. So what if kids are Bible-Retarded, Its not the public schools responsibility to educate them about the Bible.

-Delta767300ER

WORD.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 80):
I currently work for a representative at the Texas State Capitol and I couldn't even begin to tell you how many consituent letters we have received in the past couple of days SUPPORTING this bill. Very few have opposed it (I haven't seen one), but I can tell you a big majority are all for it and therefore should be passed since a majority want it. Have a good one yall.

Slovacek747

Pffft....the SCOTUS would wipe their asses with it if it ever did pass. What ever happened to protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 89):
However, the question was aimed at 102IAHexpress, because I suspect he, as a Texan, is probably a Protestant.

The largest denomination in Texas, as in the USA, is Catholicism. I'm Texan and I was brought up Catholic.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 104):
The largest denomination in Texas, as in the USA, is Catholicism

Single demonination, sure, but this is a Protestant country. On the other hand I kinda forgot about the Tex-Mex population, Texas was Catholic before it was Protestant.


Again if you want your kid to learn about religion you take care of it yourself. Heven forbid that a parent actually teach a child about something.

As far as answering this goes:

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 101):
Well, good luck pointing out the part of the US constitution that mentions a separation of Church and State.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Right there line one of the Bill of Rights.

If Texans push this, as I said, it weakens the Constitutional arguments against Abortion and Gun Control. Don't go there.

[Edited 2007-04-06 02:43:15]
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 83):
like a Moron Elder

I know you already apologized, I wanted to point out along with the other accusations of your intent, it looks like you had a Denis Rodman moment  vomit 

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 101):
Please explain what cause of action a litigant would have against law that proposes a class he has no obligation to take?

Simple, using taxpayer money/time/resources for religion. You never did clear up that logic thing, but I FORGIVE you.
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disruptivehair
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 105):
Again if you want your kid to learn about religion you take care of it yourself. Heven forbid that a parent actually teach a child about something.

I agree.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 106):
Simple, using taxpayer money/time/resources for religion.

Lets extend your logic a bit further... The use of school dollars for high school health class is enough for a litigant to have cause of action against the state because some would object to the fact that their child is taught about safe sex in lieu of sexual abstinence. So do you object to health class as well?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 108):
So do you object to health class as well?

I would love for you to point out for me any constitutional prohibition on government involvement in sex ed classes.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:50 am

Okay, you guys shut up for a minute. You might learn something.

Some of you comment on this bill without actually reading it, others site the Constitution without understanding it. And others say phrases like Separation of Church and State and don’t know anything about the context in which it was said.
For example: do you think that the person who wrote about Separation of Church and State would be for or against church service inside the US Capitol?
Against it obviously.
Nope.
During Jefferson’s administration he attended service inside the House of Representatives every Sunday.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 110):
Okay, you guys shut up for a minute. You might learn something.

Usually these words are followed by some attempt at communicating pertinent information.

In your case, I see you've set an exception to that tradition.

As I requested, would you kindly point out for me any constitutional prohibition on government involvement in sex ed classes.

As for court cases that side against government involvement in religion in schools:
McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71
Epperson v. Arkansas
Lemon v. Kurtzman
Stone v. Graham
Allegheny County v. ACLU
Edwards v. Aquillard
Lee v. Weisman

Now, according to you we don't really know what we are talking about and the Constitution doesn't actual prohibit the government from interacting with religion in this manner. However, the SCOTUS agrees completely with us on this matter. Are you saying that he SCOTUS doesn't know what it is talking about?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 110):
Okay, you guys shut up for a minute. You might learn something.

Usually these words are followed by some attempt at communicating pertinent information.

In your case, I see you've set an exception to that tradition.

As I requested, would you kindly point out for me any constitutional prohibition on government involvement in sex ed classes.

As for court cases that side against government involvement in religion in schools:
McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71
Epperson v. Arkansas
Lemon v. Kurtzman
Stone v. Graham
Allegheny County v. ACLU
Edwards v. Aquillard
Lee v. Weisman

SCOTUS seems to agree that the Constitution prohibits the use of government money in the promotion of religion. Do you also think the SCOTUS needs to "shut up for a minute"?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 110):

I understand that Jefferson was the one who coined the phrase "separation of church and state." That that phrase is not in the Constitution. I've used the argument myself when argument revolves around the occasional prayer at school or government functions.

That's completely different then teaching children about religion.

It is not the Job of the Department of Education's job to teach about religion. Religion is a personal belief. A personal faith. Even if a person rejects religion it is a personal choice. There is NOTHING in the curriculum like it. History, Math, Science, Music, none of these are subject to personal belief like religion is.

Again if you want to teach your kid about religion there are options. But public education must provide the best quality to the greatest amount of students. Students of every faith.

The First Amendment guarantees that government can't infringe on the way I practice my faith, if it teaches about religion it automatically begins to do just that.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 108):
Lets extend your logic a bit further...

Why? You haven't explained your flawed logic in the first place.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 108):
The use of school dollars for high school health class is enough for a litigant to have cause of action against the state because some would object to the fact that their child is taught about safe sex in lieu of sexual abstinence.

 no  because the school is educating children an what can and can't really happen as a result of sex instead of whistling past the graveyard like most of your type does. My Niece was raised by the most conservative sister of my wife's family. Guess how old my niece was when she got pregnant for the first time? (Hint it's under 18)

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 108):
So do you object to health class as well?

In My opinion that's the STUPIDEST rhetorical question I have EVER seen. The obvious answer is No. While I might not agree with the presentation that has been pussified by your ilk, it provides the basis for a conversation with myself and my children and a more through and educated aproach to the subject.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 110):
you guys shut up for a minute.

Oh that's a GREAT way to try to make a point  Yeah sure

By the way did you attend the Stuart school of posting to a.net?
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102IAHexpress
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 114):
Why?

I’ll break it down so even you can understand.
Someone who thinks they have cause of action against a school district that offers an elective course on the Old and New Testament is as absurd as someone who thinks they have cause of action against the same school district for offering their students a health course that teaches safe sex. In both cases parents have a very practical solution, don’t register their children for those courses.

Get it?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 115):
I�ll break it down so even you can understand.

No really, read this case:

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 116):
No really, read this case:

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71


If I remember correctly the facts of that case have to do with the use of public buildings for religious purposes, I think.

But even since an opinion was given for that case, the government has used tax money to construct and maintain spiritual buildings, the Air Force cadet chapel for example.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 115):
In both cases parents have a very practical solution, don’t register their children for those courses.

No you STILL are missing my point of why my tax dollars should pay for a class that indoctrinates a work of fiction.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 117):
the Air Force cadet chapel for example.

This is a good counter, but I think it's invalidated by the fact that at the time it was created, no one cared about such things, or were affraid of being persecuted for being against mainstream values. Now that it is acceptable to question such things, I could see where funding could be terminated. I guess that's ANOTHER letter I need to send to my congresspeople.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 93):
Religious displays at Christmas, they are fine.

Merry Chrismahanukkwanza  Smile

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 98):
It's easier for those who WANT the religious instruction to go to the private school of their choice.

So in order to learn about different religions, they'll have to deal with indoctrination of one particular religion?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 118):
No you STILL are missing my point of why my tax dollars should pay for a class that indoctrinates a work of fiction.

This could also be said about English lit  Wink
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:32 pm

The establishment clause does two things:

First) It provides for the free expression of religion. Government can not restrict religious practices.

This is why I think prayer in school IS constitutional

Second) It prohibits the government from being involved in the promoting a religion over another, or religion over atheism.

Which is why this bill is unconstitutional.

There is a huge difference between the individual EXPRESSION of religion (or lack of) and the EDUCATION of religion.

Expression of religion is protected from interference by the government, education of religion by the government is prohibited.

I can't stress enough, by supporting this bill conservatives weaken the constitutional argument against gun control and abortion.

The main thing I have as a strict constructionist over the liberals in this debate is consistency. Follow the Constitution. Liberals want to ignore the Constitution when they don't like something (The Second Amendment) Make stuff up when it's not there (Right to Privacy i.e. abortion) but follow it to the letter when it suits them (Freedom of Religion and of the Press)

If I'm against gun control because of the Second Amendment and abortion because the Warren Court made it up out of whole cloth, then I MUST be consistent and be against this bill based on the First Amendment.

There is no other way.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 119):
This could also be said about English lit

 no  There is a difference between education and indoctrination.
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767Lover
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:53 pm

The bill clearly states up front that this would be offered as an elective course only. Your thread title is misleading.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 117):
If I remember correctly the facts of that case have to do with the use of public buildings for religious purposes, I think.

Stop trying to remember the case and read the case.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1947/1947_90/

Quote:
... the Council offered voluntary classes in religious instruction to public school pupils. The courses were conducted in the regular classrooms of the school building. Students who did not attend the religious instruction were required to go to some other place in the building to pursue secular studies.

Sound very familiar? Sound just like what is proposed?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 122):
The bill clearly states up front that this would be offered as an elective course only. Your thread title is misleading.

Not at all. It would require Texas high schools to offer Bible classes. Although I do see how you could misread the title as implying that students would be required to take the course.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 120):
First) It provides for the free expression of religion. Government can not restrict religious practices.

This is why I think prayer in school IS constitutional

I'm not sure anyone (or at least any non-extremist type) has ever argued that students aren't allowed to pray in school. The school or its officials can't lead the prayers, but students can pray all they want.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 99):
Why do US schools have American History courses?

First of all, there's nothing in the Constitution prohibiting government endorsement of American history, but there is language prohibiting government endorsement of religion. Secondly, arguing that a course in Judeo-Christian tradition is acceptable in place of one on world religions would be like replacing American history with a course on the history, beliefs, and ideals of the Democratic Party. You'd be leaving out a lot of the picture.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 124):
First of all, there's nothing in the Constitution prohibiting government endorsement of American history, but there is language prohibiting government endorsement of religion.

Let me quote from the bill:

The purpose of a course under this section is to:
(1) accommodate the rights and desires of teachers who
wish to teach and students who wish to study, as applicable, the Old
or New Testament; and
(2) familiarize students with, as applicable:
(A) the contents of the Old or New Testament;
(B) the history recorded by the Old or New
Testament;
(C) the literary style and structure of the Old
or New Testament;
(D) the customs and cultures of the peoples and
societies recorded in the Old or New Testament; and
(E) the influence of the Old or New Testament on
law, history, government, literature, art, music, customs, morals,
values, and culture.


I don't see that they are endorsing a religion. The intent is to study a book (or set of books) that have had a profound effect on the history of the world, and the U.S. in particular.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 124):
Secondly, arguing that a course in Judeo-Christian tradition is acceptable in place of one on world religions would be like replacing American history with a course on the history, beliefs, and ideals of the Democratic Party. You'd be leaving out a lot of the picture.

Recall that the US was first colonized by Christians (not Jews, Muslims or Buddhists) who were trying to escape the religious wars of Europe in the 16th and 17th century. The first laws in place at the Plymouth colony were based on Judeo-Christianity. The Writers of the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution all recognized the influence of Judeo-Christian values in the creation of the US. Some 89% of the US population consider themselves Christian. Don't you think that Judeo-Christian culture deserves some study?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 125):
Don't you think that Judeo-Christian culture deserves some study?

Yes, but not exclusively. I just don't think you can have a class that studies the scriptures of one particular religion without implying some form of endorsement for that religion. Now if they were also to offer a course in Islam, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, etc. I could see one arguing that the school was giving equal treatment to all religions, but schools don't have those kind of resources until the college level.

And since your post discusses the influence of Judeo-Christian culture on American history and law, why not briefly discuss it in those classes? You could very reasonably include it in a discussion on the sources of American law without pulling it out to be a separate class. And we already learn about religion-related historical events in US history, such as the Great Awakening, the religious tolerance laws in the colonies, etc.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 125):
I don't see that they are endorsing a religion.

I do.

I'll put it together for you.

Purpose of the bill:

"Sec. 28.011. ELECTIVE COURSES IN HISTORY AND LITERATURE OF
OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS ERAS. (a) A school district shall offer to
students in grades nine or above an elective course in the history
and literature of the Old Testament era and an elective course in
the history and literature of the New Testament era."

So, the purpose is to teach the history and literature of the old and new testament eras? Right? Not to teach Christianity?

Okay, I'll swallow that for a second. Right up until...

"The book or collection of books commonly known as the
Old Testament shall be used as the basic textbook for a course in
the history and literature of the Old Testament era. The book or
collection of books commonly known as the New Testament shall be
used as the basic textbook for a course in the history and
literature of the New Testament era."

Out comes the   .

If you actually want to teach the history of the old and new testament eras and not Christianity, then you use a real history book. Not the Bible. The bible is not a historically accurate document. It is a document of religious faith. If you are teaching the bible as history then you are teaching a particular religious view. Funny isn't it that if you teach the history of the old testament era then you by default teach creationism? Ooopsie.

[Edited 2007-04-06 22:55:37]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:09 am

I just want to comment that I never thought I'd be on the same side as MDorBust and UALPHLCS in a non-av debate.  Smile
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 126):
Funny isn't it that if you teach the history of the old testament era then you by default teach creationism? Ooopsie.

Excellent point! Not to throw this thread off-topic with this question, but just for info, where does Texas stand on that issue? Is creationism something they've tried to bring into the curriculum in recent years?
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MDorBust
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 129):
...but just for info, where does Texas stand on that issue?

Well, El Presidente supports creati... I mean, Intelligent design, so I must agree.. right?  Wink

There are some small interests groups that try to sneak the issue in every now and then. They have been roundly denied so far.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 125):
The Writers of the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution all recognized the influence of Judeo-Christian values in the creation of the US. Some 89% of the US population consider themselves Christian. Don't you think that Judeo-Christian culture deserves some study?

Yes. However, as I mentioned you can learn about the Bible's influence on American history without studying the Bible. I did in public high school, a regular American History class and text ought to be sufficient.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 128):
I just want to comment that I never thought I'd be on the same side as MDorBust and UALPHLCS in a non-av debate.

Well, welcome to the right side of the debate for once!  Big grin
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
AirportSeven
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 122):
The bill clearly states up front that this would be offered as an elective course only. Your thread title is misleading.

You might want to read section 2 of the bill, not just the up front part.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 131):
Yes. However, as I mentioned you can learn about the Bible's influence on American history without studying the Bible. I did in public high school, a regular American History class and text ought to be sufficient.

I find Americans woefully ignorant of their own history, I'm afraid. Personally, I would like there to be more in-depth study made mandatory on a lot of source material for the American culture, including for example, Adam Smith, David Hume, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Rousseau, and Hobbes, among others. Not to mention the further study of European history, from which nearly all the foundation activity in America is rooted. So-called American History is just the tip of the iceberg.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 127):
Okay, I'll swallow that for a second. Right up until...

"The book or collection of books commonly known as the
Old Testament shall be used as the basic textbook for a course in
the history and literature of the Old Testament era. The book or
collection of books commonly known as the New Testament shall be
used as the basic textbook for a course in the history and
literature of the New Testament era."

Out comes the .

If you actually want to teach the history of the old and new testament eras and not Christianity, then you use a real history book. Not the Bible. The bible is not a historically accurate document. It is a document of religious faith. If you are teaching the bible as history then you are teaching a particular religious view. Funny isn't it that if you teach the history of the old testament era then you by default teach creationism? Ooopsie.

You make a good point about that. I agree that not taking into account other contemporary histories (the few that exist, such as Josephus), makes it seem less like a historical study. I would change that.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
767Lover
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 132):
You might want to read section 2 of the bill, not just the up front part.

I did read it. I always thought "Enrichment Curriculum" meant "elective."
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bill Would Require Bible Classes In TX Schools

Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 133):
I find Americans woefully ignorant of their own history, I'm afraid. Personally, I would like there to be more in-depth study made mandatory on a lot of source material for the American culture, including for example, Adam Smith, David Hume, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Rousseau, and Hobbes, among others. Not to mention the further study of European history, from which nearly all the foundation activity in America is rooted. So-called American History is just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree. But the same could be said about just about any part of the Public school curriculum. Teaching the Bible isn't going to make it any better. In fact, if teachers teach the Bible as poorly as they are teaching other subjects, we'll have a generation of students who think the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the Left-Behind series could actually happen.

Woefully ignorant of the Bible you say. Well, My brother-in law recently went from being a Catholic to being "born-again." He asked me to show him where in the Bible it said anything about eating fish on Friday, to which I replied where in the Bible is Rapture mentioned? He was speechless. We have a whole load of numb-nuts driving around with "in case of Rapture..." bumper stickers on their cars and you want this taught in school?

Frankly, American History is taught poorly, all history in America is taught poorly. I saw that in the ignorance of my fellow students in college. I took AP European history in High school. Our textbook was the same one I used in European History the next semester in college. When I left school and came back to finish my degree it had gotten even worse. Administrators and textbook writers are more interested that every minority under the sun is mentioned in the book, until real history is watered down to uselessness.

I stand by everything I've written here. If those in favor of this knew their constitution as they claim to they wouldn't be in favor of this. Real conservatives must be against this constitutionally.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.

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