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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
so a Cuban style blockade

Nah, just gasoline is required.

"Because Iran's refineries can pump out only 10 1/2 million gallons of gasoline a day, and Iranian motorists burn 17 million gallons, the gap is filled by gasoline purchased at full price from other countries."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../2005/07/03/AR2005070301042_2.html

If they can affect our economy by helping the rise in the price of oil, we can certainly do the same.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
Iran-Contra redux

Iran-Contra helped the mullahs.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
Didn't work the first time, don't think it'd work this time.

You wouldn't suggest military intervention, would you?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 50):
Nah, just gasoline is required.

How do you accomplish that without a near total blockade of the country, both land and sea?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 50):
Iran-Contra helped the mullahs.

Didn't help us much.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 50):
You wouldn't suggest military intervention, would you?

I haven't proposed that because I haven't seen anything that would be of benefit at the moment. Some of the things we have to come to terms with is that our traditional allies aren't the only ones we need to put pressure on for things to happen in the mideast. Russia and China are playing far more important roles in the region than ever before. This is a much different world than just a decade ago, and it goes beyond just "the West" getting involved.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 51):

How do you accomplish that without a near total blockade of the country, both land and sea?

Sanctions against the companies that refine the oil. Did you read the story? It was more interesting than I imagined.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 51):

Didn't help us much.

If it was done to get the hostages back, it certainly worked.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 51):
Russia and China are playing far more important roles in the region than ever before.

Russia and China have their own problems to deal with, and neither would exist in their current form without the West's assistance.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 52):
Sanctions against the companies that refine the oil. Did you read the story? It was more interesting than I imagined.

Which particular story? I recall a thread here recently about the subject, that outlined a plan which would have very poor results, if we're talking about the same one.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 52):
If it was done to get the hostages back, it certainly worked.

I believe only 3 of the 30 hostages were released as a direct result of violating the law and supplying Iran with weapons. I certainly hope that you're not endorsing underhanded dealings in the world community to support short-term goals.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 52):
Russia and China have their own problems to deal with, and neither would exist in their current form without the West's assistance.

The reason why I brought up why they need to get involved.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 48):
but the story implied that Syria was being offered other options

I did not interpret Speaker Pelosi's statement that way. We must just be interpreting it differently.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 53):

Which particular story?

This one:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../2005/07/03/AR2005070301042_2.html

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 54):

I did not interpret Speaker Pelosi's statement that way. We must just be interpreting it differently.

I am only basing this on this opinion piece, which is quite interesting reading.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....n_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=81211
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 55):
This one:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....html

Okay, so again, how do you accomplish cutting them off from the rest of the world's supply of gasoline?

See: U.S. Congress Getting Tougher With Iran (by RJpieces Mar 14 2007 in Non Aviation)
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 56):
how do you accomplish cutting them off from the rest of the world's supply of gasoline?

Find out who refines it and transports it back to Iran. I don't know enough to realize how feasible this may be. This may be somewhat like the embargo that has kept Iran from renewing their aircraft fleet.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 57):
Find out who refines it and transports it back to Iran.

You see this is the trouble I have with these things. Sounds great on paper, but what if Saudi Arabia or Russia are where they're buying their gasoline from? Gasoline isn't usually transported over great distances by means other than pipeline, so their suppliers are probably fairly close by. Who in Iran's general geographic area are good candidates to cut off their supplies that we haven't pissed off lately?
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 58):

I surprise myself sometimes, and now really wonder WHY? this has not been done or really proposed.

India is their major gasoline supplier.

I found this other article.

Really interesting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17855847/
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:27 am

Okay, great, and there are no plans to do anything about it. Looks like India is perfectly happy to be pumping gasoline to Iran. One of our allies in the area, and neither we nor the Europeans are even considering putting any pressure on them to stop the deliveries.

Next?
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 60):
One of our allies in the area, and neither we nor the Europeans are even considering putting any pressure on them to stop the deliveries.

I tell you, this is when you start believing in conspiracy theories, that's why I thought it was so interesting.

To summarize for those who did not read the stories:

Iran has to import large amounts of gasoline, mostly from India. But neither Europe nor the US are even close to using this leverage to get concessions from Iran.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 57):
This may be somewhat like the embargo that has kept Iran from renewing their aircraft fleet.

Interesting story in the New York Times ... our good friend Halliburton is winding up their Cayman subsidiary that was skirting the Iranian embargoes. If we can't even keep American companies from doing this, how are we to get companies from other countries to do it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/world/middleeast/10halliburton.html
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 62):
If we can't even keep American companies from doing this, how are we to get companies from other countries to do it?

Would you agree that this (the whole thing, not just this Halliburton deal) is more of a scandal than the latest we have been getting from the news?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 63):
Would you agree that this (the whole thing, not just this Halliburton deal) is more of a scandal than the latest we have been getting from the news?

I think the entire thing is a complete farce. You can find any blowhard on the 'net who'll say "the United Nations doesn't work" who'll then go to the polls to vote for the very person who led a company that actively subverted the foreign policy goals of this and other countries, who'll then come online and post how someone who is trying to establish diplomacy "an idiot" or "a disgrace", or in violation of some act or another.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 64):

C'mon Westy, I gave you an opportunity to shine and you took it in a different direction.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 65):
C'mon Westy, I gave you an opportunity to shine and you took it in a different direction.

Well I *was* trying to stay on topic.  Wink
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OU812
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
well you've only made two posts prior to this in this thread. One was to call Pelosi an idiot, and the other seemed to blame diplomacy for what Iran is doing currently.

This is the 2nd time you attempted to twist my statements & completely ignore the significance of my replies! I now see why you have such difficulty realising why regimes such Iran/Syria are so dangerous. You seem only capable of seeing this situation one dimensionally & that's the US/Bush is wrong, while conveniently ignoring Iran/Syria's many many sort comings !!!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
What are your alternate proposals for how these situations should be handled?

For starters, stop having people from the west blame the west for Iran's & Syria's extreme & hostile actions! [ie Iranian Leader stating to wipe Israel off the map - Syria using Lebanon as a proxy!] If useful idiots such as Pelosi & the pussycats could cease their childish ways, running roughshod over US foreign policy & have the US speak with one voice, that would continue the pressure on these two regimes-as mentioned above by AndesSMF. However, now the US appears to be divided because of Pelosi's trip, weaking our resolve.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 54):
I did not interpret Speaker Pelosi's statement that way. We must just be interpreting it differently.

Quoting: Rep. Tom Lantos, a San Mateo Democrat and chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee

Rep. Tom Lantos, a San Mateo Democrat and chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee who is accompanying Pelosi , said during the group's visit to Israel on Sunday, "We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy. I view my job as beginning with restoring overseas credibility and respect for the United States."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...4/03/MNGTFP0JOK1.DTL&type=politics
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 66):
Well I *was* trying to stay on topic.

Try harder the next time!  Wink

But this is my point:

Here you have many factual reasons to call this a scandal, but since this can taint many from all sides and other countries, is being kept reported below the radar.

The way I read it is this:

While Iran does export and has benefited from high oil prices, they are forced to import gasoline (since 1982), mainly from India. The price of gas in Iran is subsidized, therefore while oil prices have benefited them, a good chunk of this is negated by their gas imports.

The West claims that Iran does NOT need nuclear power. Those who say this is not true do not use this gas import conundrum to support their claim that Iran might have an actual reason to do so.

This is also great leverage to obtain concessions from Iran, since India is so friendly to the West and the US. Imagine what a 30% cut in gas imports would do to the Iranian economy. And the West is NOT considering at this stage to use this card in the current negotiations!

And of all the complaints about Halliburton, why has this story not come out till today?

This whole thing is just SHIT. This problem with Iran could have ended years ago if the West had some balls.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 67):
This is the 2nd time you attempted to twist my statements & completely ignore the significance of my replies!

I don't need to read any further than this. My first reply to one of your posts was a question, giving you the opportunity to clarify your statement. WTG.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 68):
This problem with Iran could have ended years ago if the West had some balls.

But a few posts above, you endorsed the Iran-Contra scandal in order to get hostages back. To say the problem is that the West doesn't have balls, then endorse our own castration isn't compatible.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 70):
But a few posts above, you endorsed the Iran-Contra scandal in order to get hostages back.

You misunderstood me then, because it was not meant as an endorsement. I said that it helped the mullahs and got the hostages back, nothing else was said nor meant.

Do you have a reply to my #68 above?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 71):
Do you have a reply to my #68 above?

I gave it already. Your conclusion was the whole situation was shit, and I pointed out a contradiction in what you were endorsing. Even though you've said now that you weren't endorsing it, you had given it your thumbs up. I think that's exactly what's been wrong with our policy not only in the mideast, but in other regions. We giveth with one hand, and taketh away with another. Someone should sit down and say "this is our policy--there are no loopholes". Doubt that'll ever happen.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 72):

Westy, don't try your typical M.O. on me, as it will not work. The course of action I have endorsed here consistently has been the use of gasoline as a leverage. Now you are trying to stick to the Iran-Contra connection, to which I showed no endorsement, merely a statement of FACT. The US sent weapons to Iran, Iran assisted in the return of the hostages.

Now we can continue the discussion thru my statements of reply #68 here or in another thread, or we can end this. But I won't play that game.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 73):
Westy, don't try your typical M.O. on me, as it will not work

Look, I'm very pragmatic about these things. You goofed above and aren't owning it. So don't bother with the M.O. bull, because you're intelligent enough to know that's a copout, so let's not go there. Just own it and move on.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 73):
Now you are trying to stick to the Iran-Contra connection, to which I showed no endorsement, merely a statement of FACT.

The FACT is, that my reply #72 referred not to Iran-Contra, but the boondoggle of Halliburton operating in Iran through a Cayman subsidiary, playing both sides of the team. That should have been clear enough.

Now when you want to talk about this intelligently, look me up.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 74):
You goofed above and aren't owning it.

I don't see any goof on my part.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 74):
that my reply #72 referred not to Iran-Contra, but the boondoggle of Halliburton operating in Iran through a Cayman subsidiary, playing both sides of the team

Then you should have made it clearer. Because as I stated:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 68):
And of all the complaints about Halliburton, why has this story not come out till today?

Referring to all the other prior complaints (that are not quite valid IMO) and this interesting bit of info you gave that was a NY times story TODAY.

There are many, many reasons any administration can give their opposition for complaint, and usually the opposition picks up some barely interesting or cooked up 'scanda' to bitch and moan. Here I see evidence of the West and the US asleep at the switch, and barely a peep from anyone about this.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 75):
I don't see any goof on my part.

You endorsed Iran-Contra. You said it was a good thing. That little foray broke international and U.S. laws. You said that was acceptable to get hostages back, and you were quite clear on that. I called you on it. If you want to make that some sort of "M.O.", be my guest. You won't get very far with it, though.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 75):
Here I see evidence of the West and the US asleep at the switch, and barely a peep from anyone about this.

Well sure, follow the money. That's been a truth going back to the year dot. Cutting off the gasoline to Iran is a brilliant idea. It's not going to work if we just go over to India and say "you have to throttle back your economy" in order to do it. We have to give India an incentive to do it. Like understanding what more nukes in their backyard will do. Now if they do cut back deliveries, is someone else going to fill in the gap? Who knows. Will it be the offshore subsidiary of some American company that will facilitate it? Hell if I know, but there doesn't seem to be any penalty if they do, so it just might. Close that loophole. Close it now. Let's start at home first and do what we should be doing before we go bellyaching around the world.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 76):
You endorsed Iran-Contra

Under what world does a statement of fact constitute an endorsement of the action? You called an Iran-Contra redux, I responded with the fact that Iran-Contra benefited the mullahs, not the opposition, and that the hostages were released. Nothing more, nothing less was stated about that by me.

But in good liberal fashion, you latched onto that, putting other meanings into a simple statement. And then you dropped the bombshell that Halliburton had until recently a subsidiary that had dealings with Iran, and I questioned why this was brought to light by the NYT today, when something like this is simply indefensible by any US citizen in good conscience.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 74):
The FACT is, that my reply #72 referred not to Iran-Contra, but the boondoggle of Halliburton operating in Iran through a Cayman subsidiary



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 72):
Your conclusion was the whole situation was shit, and I pointed out a contradiction in what you were endorsing. Even though you've said now that you weren't endorsing it, you had given it your thumbs up.

First you say that I endorsed Iran-Contra, then in reply #72 you call out that you were referring to Halliburton. You did not write that well enough IMO.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 67):
"We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy. I view my job as beginning with restoring overseas credibility and respect for the United States."

While I'm convinced that even if Nancy Pelsoi was in technical violation of the Logan act nothing will come of it. This statement seems proof positive that the violation did occur.

I wonder what Dems, would say if Republicans had gone to Germany in World War II, or North Korea in the 50s?

The double standard of liberals is breathtaking.

No one violated the law with the Plame case but they had to find SOMETHING so they get a procedural conviction. Meanwhile a law really gets violated and nothing happens. No one cares.

In point of fact, Pelosi's actions are defended by some.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 78):
I wonder what Dems, would say if Republicans had gone to Germany in World War II, or North Korea in the 50s?

Well, seeing as how we were at war with those countries at the time, but we're not at war with Syria, I think your comparison is flawed. If they went before the war? Probably would depend on what the theoretical Republican envoys said. Just like it depends on what Pelosi said now.

[BTW - 500th post on A.net!]
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 79):
Well, seeing as how we were at war with those countries at the time, but we're not at war with Syria, I think your comparison is flawed.

Comparing the need for a single Foreign policy, with the comments made by Pelosi herself and those quoted by OU812 the comparison is valid.

On the other hand lets look at why the Logan act was written in the first place.

I was written during the Quasi-war with France. When we were not technically at war with anyone but fighting was going on. Hmmm. Perhaps your right, the WWII reference isn't apt, the Logan act was written at a time when the situation more closely resembles that of today!
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cfalk
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 67):
Rep. Tom Lantos, a San Mateo Democrat and chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee who is accompanying Pelosi , said during the group's visit to Israel on Sunday, "We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy. I view my job as beginning with restoring overseas credibility and respect for the United States."

I think this shows clearly that the Democratic leadership in Congress seems willing to rewrite the Constitution whenever they feel like it. This comment deserves a bitch-slap.

Look, I agree that we should be talking to the Iranians and Syrians and other a-holes in the region. But you simply cannot have two foreign policies. Rightly or wrongly, the President is in charge of foreign policy, and to have the Dems running around, assuring Assad & Co that "we'll work all this out in two years" is counterproductive, unconstitutional and represents a conflict of interest. Who knows, maybe she's even telling Assad & Co, " By all means, increase your attacks until November 2008 - it helps our cause".
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 81):
But you simply cannot have two foreign policies. Rightly or wrongly, the President is in charge of foreign policy, and to have the Dems running around, assuring Assad & Co that "we'll work all this out in two years" is counterproductive, unconstitutional and represents a conflict of interest.

Nice summation. I think that encapsulates everything that the president has been trying to say. The problem is that since it comes from the administration certain people take that to mean it's automatically wrong. And If you agree with what the administration has been saying on this issue you are a right-wing nut job.

Democrats run around saying that they can and should talk to everyone in the world. Assad, Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, et al. Yet they have closed their minds to the Administration, and Republicans. And the loyal masses, especially those on A.net follow the party line. As evidenced here.

They even rejected the President's offer to come to the White House to talk about the troop funding bill.
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BarfBag
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 76):
Cutting off the gasoline to Iran is a brilliant idea. It's not going to work if we just go over to India and say "you have to throttle back your economy" in order to do it. We have to give India an incentive to do it. Like understanding what more nukes in their backyard will do. Now if they do cut back deliveries, is someone else going to fill in the gap?

What makes you think India supports the Iranian nuclear program, or that of anyone else's, for that matter ? India twice voted on the US side to take the Iran sanction issue to the UNSC, when Russia and China abstained. However we aren't interested in going to war with them.

The US also needs to be cognizant of India's geopolitical and internal interests.

Iran happens to be on the west of Pakistan, who have been a nuisance to us for decades. It is in our interests to maintain cordial ties with Iran and Afghanistan, nations that border the Pakis on the other other side, as we do now.

The Iranians also happen to find our refined petroleum output an economically attractive proposition. In turn, we have a significant interest in their oil and gas fields, particularly ONGC's stake in the Yadavaran FIeld in Khuzestan.

Further, India has a significant Shi'a population among its Muslims. We have no interest in getting involved in anything that'll piss them off. Why should we risk internal strife ?

This is a far more complex issue than what it's been made out to be on this thread. Cessasion of eocnomic and geopolitical ties with Iran will require significant trading & investment privileges for India with the US, together with cessation of military and political backing of the Pakistani regime on the US' part. Due to the Afghanistan ops, the latter at least, is a nonstarter, and therefore India cannot be expected to give up its ties with Iran.

I would not be surprised if the US already attempted to get us to squeeze Iran, but refused to offer any concessions in return, thereby ensuring a stalemate as is the case now.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
she acted as an intermediary between Israel and Syria

And....

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
"...in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States..."

I don't see a problem.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 84):

She isn't a diplomat. It's not her job. She'll screw it up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/04/04/AR2007040402306.html

The problem is that the country has only one foreign policy. Like it or not elections have consequences, and The Bush Administration sets the Foreign Policy. It is not the job of Congress or the Democrat party to have a second Foreign Policy. In point of fact, not only is it not their job but according to the Logan Act, it's illegal.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 85):
She isn't a diplomat. It's not her job. She'll screw it up.

You know what, Bobby Kennedy was Attorney General when he negotiated with the USSR during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I seem to remember that going well.

The fact that she is not a diplomat full time does not mean she will destroy what's left of the bilateral relationship. It's a fresh approach that the US quite frankly needs in relation to Iran.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 85):
It is not the job of Congress or the Democrat party to have a second Foreign Policy.

Well, in practice they do pursue a separate agenda (as seen by visits from members of the legislature to foreign nations as US envoys) and it has not been proven to be illegal at all.

QFF
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
You know what, Bobby Kennedy was Attorney General when he negotiated with the USSR during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I seem to remember that going well.

Bobby Kennedy may have been the Attorney General, but he was a member of the Administration, and a confidant of the President. He was not negotiating a separate foreign policy. In fact he was directly representing his brother the President. The analogy is completely wrong.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 86):
Well, in practice they do pursue a separate agenda (as seen by visits from members of the legislature to foreign nations as US envoys) and it has not been proven to be illegal at all.

Advocating a new agenda in Foreign Policy on the floor of Congress is perfectly legitimate and within the scope of Congress. Going out to other countries to put the policy into action is not. As was quoted here:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 67):
Rep. Tom Lantos, a San Mateo Democrat and chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee who is accompanying Pelosi , said during the group's visit to Israel on Sunday, "We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy. I view my job as beginning with restoring overseas credibility and respect for the United States."

Tom Lantos, and Nancy Pelosi are completely wrong. It is not their job and according to the Logan Act illegal. Here it the relevant section:
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States,

The only question becomes if the Administration by allowing the Pelosi trip was giving it's tacit approval. Obviously it gave the approval for the trip, but objected to the substance of the trip, and did so publicly. A case could certainly be made based on the Lantos quote that the Logan Act was violated.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 87):
It is not their job and according to the Logan Act illegal.

It depends on how you define the "United States" in the context of the law. I certainly has NOT been established that what Pelosi did or has planned to do is illegal.

QFF
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 88):

That's like questioning the definition of "is."

The Constitution gives the authority over Foreign Policy to the Executive.

He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors,

I checked the Constitution I don't see anything about the Speaker of the House and Foreign Policy.

BTW you don't need to "plan" something for it to be illegal.

Nancy Pelosi doesn't have the authority to do what she did in the Middle East. The Democrat lead Congress does not have the authority to execute, as Lantos said " an alternative Democratic foreign policy."

First, it's unconstitutional.
Second it's a violation of the Logan Act.

It's pretty clear. Arguing the definition of "United States" is a spin tactic.
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B777-700
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
"In 1975, Senators John Sparkman and George McGovern were accused of violating the Logan Act when they traveled to Cuba and met with Cuban officials. In considering that case, the U.S. Department of State declared:


"The clear intent of this provision [Logan Act] is to prohibit unauthorized persons from intervening in disputes between the United States and foreign governments. Nothing in section 953 [Logan Act], however, would appear to restrict members of the Congress from engaging in discussions with foreign officials in pursuance of their legislative duties under the Constitution. In the case of Senators McGovern and Sparkman the executive branch, although it did not in any way encourage the Senators to go to Cuba , was fully informed of the nature and purpose of their visit, and had validated their passports for travel to that country."
The circumstances of Speaker Pelosi's trip to Syria were similar. The Bush administration was well aware of the "nature and purpose" of the proposed trip, and while President Bush discouraged it and is now harshly criticizing it, the executive branch took no action to prevent Pelosi from leaving the country. Indeed, the White House has not mentioned the Logan Act in relationship to Pelosi's trip."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/a/217569.htm

This was spelled out for you in post #4...FOUR. Why on Earth you're still going on about this is beyond me.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 6):
I said myself I was on the fence on this one. I was merely bringing it out for debate.

Really?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 89):
First, it's unconstitutional.
Second it's a violation of the Logan Act.

Seems like you're made up you mind. What a shock.  Yeah sure

Let me ask you a question UAL. Why do you keep leaving out the GOP delagation that wend a few days before her, or the Republicans that were WITH HER on her trip? Hmmmm?
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 90):

Welcome back!

I'm going to do something here which you fail to do whenever your not suspended.

I'm going to answer your question.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 90):
Let me ask you a question UAL. Why do you keep leaving out the GOP delagation that wend a few days before her, or the Republicans that were WITH HER on her trip? Hmmmm?

I'm ceratin you missed this so I'll repost it:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Nancy Pelosi has every right to go to Syria on a fact-finding mission, and debate on the floor of House of Representatives. In fact I applaud her for it, she ought to go and see exactly who we're dealing with. Additionally, as some others have pointed out in other threads some Republicans have also recently visited Syria.



Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
However, the problem comes with Nancy Pelosi claiming to represent the government of the United States in negotiations. Worse she acted as an intermediary between Israel and Syria.The only one's authorized to do so are in the State Department

And this:
Rep. Tom Lantos, a San Mateo Democrat and chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee who is accompanying Pelosi , said during the group's visit to Israel on Sunday, "We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy. I view my job as beginning with restoring overseas credibility and respect for the United States."

So now that your caught up,

I didn't leave out the Republicans, as you can see. And over the course of this thread we've talked about the difference between Pelosi's stated reasons for the trip and actual facts of the trip, particularly in light of Rep. Lantos' quote.

I agree that Pelosi will never be charged with a violation of the Logan Act. However, where once I was on the fence and ready to believe that the Pelosi trip did not have the intention of subverting the Administration's Foreign Policy, the Lantos quote proved otherwise.

In that light I became convinced that the Logan Act was violated. Whether or not there is a charge doesn't matter. In fact politics being what they are I'm sure no charge will ever be filed. But a case can be made that the law was broken.

Not that this explanation will mean anything to you B777-700. I'm sure your next post will be filled with one liners and rolling smileys.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
B777-700
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
I'm going to answer your question.

No you're not, you're gonna say why it's ok for Republicans to do it but not a Democrat.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
However, the problem comes with Nancy Pelosi claiming to represent the government of the United States in negotiations. Worse she acted as an intermediary between Israel and Syria.The only one's authorized to do so are in the State Department

Please show me where she did any of that.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
I didn't leave out the Republicans, as you can see.

So you believe the Republicans were in violation of the Logan act too?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
I agree that Pelosi will never be charged with a violation of the Logan Act.

Because there wasn't one.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
However, where once I was on the fence and ready to believe that the Pelosi trip did not have the intention of subverting the Administration's Foreign Policy, the Lantos quote proved otherwise.

I don't believe you ever were.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
In that light I became convinced that the Logan Act was violated.

You seem to be the only one that thinks that.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
But a case can be made that the law was broken.

I'm sure you'll be able to explain how what Newt Gingrich did in Taiwan and Colombia during Clinton's administration is perfectly acceptable, correct?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 91):
Not that this explanation will mean anything to you B777-700. I'm sure your next post will be filled with one liners and rolling smileys.

Well, to be honest, it doesn't really take a whole lot of effort to discredit you.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 92):

Just a bunch of oneliners, nothing substantive at all.

Par for the course from B777-700.

Since you don't refute with anything resembling facts, there is nothing to debate with you.

At least Qantasforever makes points that can be argued, so don't interrupt the grown-ups while we're talking B777-700.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
B777-700
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 93):
Just a bunch of oneliners, nothing substantive at all.

Par for the course from B777-700.

Ok, and again...let me direct you to my statement:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 92):
Well, to be honest, it doesn't really take a whole lot of effort to discredit you.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to give you a rare opportunity. Since you have some kind of twisted crush on me, and think you know all there is to know about me, I'm going to let you ask me anything you want. I vow to answer thoroughly and honestly. My political views, personal details, taste in women...anything your little heart desires, I'm an open book. I offer this chance to see how intellectually honest you are. Do you really want to find out where someone with an opposing viewpoint stands, or are you happy in your world just painting everyone who disagrees with you out to be an "enemy".

We can do this in here, in public, I don't mind. It's up to you (and I guess the mods) or in PM or email.

This is your chance to broaden your narrow mind. Maybe if it all works out, we will wind up building some bridges instead of always trashing each other.

Here you go, have at it...
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:27 am

B777-700,

I've given you the opportunity to show us your viewpoint. I've also asked you repeatedly in other threads to refute particular arguments.

Instead you have thrown insults and one-liners and rolling smileys. In the other thread you even deny an example of something because you are personally in favor of it. Which makes no sense what-so-ever.

Now you've hijacked this thread. Which was about substantive issues and want to make it about you. No. You want a thread about you go start one. This is about the Logan Act. If you have something to say based on the LAW we are discussing or the situation that brought it up then have at it. But otherwise you will be ignored.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:39 am

The thread has jumped the Shark . . .

Off topic conversation, elementary school bickering, personal attacks.

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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