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UALPHLCS
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Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:36 am

Nancy Pelosi has every right to go to Syria on a fact-finding mission, and debate on the floor of House of Representatives. In fact I applaud her for it, she ought to go and see exactly who we're dealing with. Additionally, as some others have pointed out in other threads some Republicans have also recently visited Syria.

However, the problem comes with Nancy Pelosi claiming to represent the government of the United States in negotiations. Worse she acted as an intermediary between Israel and Syria.The only one's authorized to do so are in the State Department.

This is a violation of the Logan Act passed in 1799, it has been on the books a long time. But it was last amended in 1994.

953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
MDorBust
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Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
...in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States

Umm, when did she do any of these things? What dispute/controversy is Syria having with the US that Pelosi attempted to deal with?

Additionally, didn't Syria and Israel both deny that Pelosi carried any messages for them?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Umm, when did she do any of these things? What dispute/controversy is Syria having with the US that Pelosi attempted to deal with?

This came from the Washington Post of all places:

After a meeting with Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad in Damascus, Ms. Pelosi announced that she had delivered a message from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that "Israel was ready to engage in peace talks" with Syria. What's more, she added, Mr. Assad was ready to "resume the peace process" as well. Having announced this seeming diplomatic breakthrough, Ms. Pelosi suggested that her Kissingerian shuttle diplomacy was just getting started. "We expressed our interest in using our good offices in promoting peace between Israel and Syria," she said.

visiting Damascus at a time when the administration -- rightly or wrongly -- has frozen high-level contacts with Syria. Mr. Bush said that thanks to the speaker's freelancing Mr. Assad was getting mixed messages from the United States. Ms. Pelosi responded by pointing out that Republican congressmen had visited Syria without drawing presidential censure. That's true enough -- but those other congressmen didn't try to introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East. "We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace," Ms. Pelosi grandly declared.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/04/04/AR2007040402306.html

Explanation: This thread was deleted for a time, because of it's potentially incendiary nature. I then started another attempting to remove all the objectionable content and still talk about the law. However, I made my case to the mods and they reinstated this one and took that new thread out. So unfortunately the posts from that thread are lost.

Anyway, I've been following this situation. I'm kind of on the fence here about the Logan Act. It might apply, it might not. One thing is clear to me at least, Nancy Pelosi is so drunk on her own self importance she might have inadvertently broken this law and made a fool of herself in her zeal to make the President look bad.

Way to go Nancy.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:00 pm

Nancy Pelosi was travelling with State Department officials, so if there was an issue they ought to have known about it. Besides, as you mentioned, why is this brought up with her and not with the 3 Republican congressmen who met with with mr. Assad in Syria as well?

Not to mention that according to one of the Representatives that accompanied her on the trip, Bush was personally told by Pelosi of her intention of going to Syria the day before they left. Not that it prompted a response then.

EDIT to add link: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...swamp/2007/04/was_pelosi_unfa.html

[Edited 2007-04-09 15:02:08]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:03 pm

Nice try UAL...go get another cup of coffee and try again.

"In 1975, Senators John Sparkman and George McGovern were accused of violating the Logan Act when they traveled to Cuba and met with Cuban officials. In considering that case, the U.S. Department of State declared:


"The clear intent of this provision [Logan Act] is to prohibit unauthorized persons from intervening in disputes between the United States and foreign governments. Nothing in section 953 [Logan Act], however, would appear to restrict members of the Congress from engaging in discussions with foreign officials in pursuance of their legislative duties under the Constitution. In the case of Senators McGovern and Sparkman the executive branch, although it did not in any way encourage the Senators to go to Cuba , was fully informed of the nature and purpose of their visit, and had validated their passports for travel to that country."
The circumstances of Speaker Pelosi's trip to Syria were similar. The Bush administration was well aware of the "nature and purpose" of the proposed trip, and while President Bush discouraged it and is now harshly criticizing it, the executive branch took no action to prevent Pelosi from leaving the country. Indeed, the White House has not mentioned the Logan Act in relationship to Pelosi's trip."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/a/217569.htm
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jaysit
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Nancy Pelosi is so drunk on her own self importance she might have inadvertently broken this law and made a fool of herself in her zeal to make the President look bad.

Boring.

GWB needs no help from anyone in making him look like an incompetent and out of touch imbecile.

As for any violations of any kind, Pelosi was accompanied by State Department officials. The legalities of her visit were all addressed prior to her visit and found airtight.

As were the visits of moderate Republican Congressmen Frank Wolf, and conservative Republicans Pitts and Darrell Issa who visited with Assad days before she did. Who after they visited with Assad, openly criticized GWB in a press Q&A, something Pelosi never did.

As for the WPost which has still not learned from its embarassing silence and show of support of the bogus Iraq war, it is beltway social connections as usual. These people attend the same cocktail parties as those they attempt to oversee, send their kids to the same schools, etc. If the Post had bothered to do its homework, it would have known that Olmert's own spokeswoman stated that Olmert told Pelosi that Israel would begin peace talks with Syria if it withdrew support for Hamas and Hezbollah. Pelosi told Assad nothing to the contrary. Her bland comment on hoping for peace with Syria says nothing to the contrary either. The joker on the editorial board of the Post needs to have his head and his credentials examined if he equates that comment to a contrarian policy. If the Post is trying to walk a fine line between providing real news and appeasing its right wing critics, this was not the venue. Democrats do plenty of stupid things to criticize, but by going after Pelosi in this foolish manner and with this drivel of an argument, the Post is back to looking like the intimidated rag it had become between 2002 and 2004.

The only people who come out of this process looking like thuggish dolts is the White House (no big surprise there) and Olmert, who showed that he is basically a puppet who was was chastized by the White House after meeting with Pelosi. Unfortunately for Olmert (and his flailing administration despised by most Israelis), his own remarks to Pelosi were on the record and his attempt to villify Pelosi on command by the White House has made him look pathetic. In fact, the Israeli press is laughing at his buffoonery.

Actually, what this whole ludicrous attempt by the White House has done is to bring Democrats and moderate Republicans together against the White House. Frank Wolf and his group of Republican moderates in Congress have apparently been chastized by the WH in private and they are disgusted with the WH.

I say give up your nonsensical and laugheable crusade.

Or wait. Don't. Entertainment on these boards is sorely lacking now that certain members of the A.net right wing claque have quit, so we welcome your online minstrel show.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
Besides, as you mentioned, why is this brought up with her and not with the 3 Republican congressmen who met with with mr. Assad in Syria as well?

Because as the Washington Post pointed out:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
That's true enough -- but those other congressmen didn't try to introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East.

Quote taken from the Washington Post column.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
Nice try UAL...go get another cup of coffee and try again.

I said myself I was on the fence on this one. I was merely bringing it out for debate. Clearly, by your research the administration has decided that even IF there was a violation, they aren't going to pursue it. Not that it made much sense to pursue it anyway.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
I say give up your nonsensical and laugheable crusade.

Really! Who's the partisan here?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
I'm kind of on the fence here about the Logan Act. It might apply, it might not.



Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Nancy Pelosi has every right to go to Syria on a fact-finding mission, and debate on the floor of House of Representatives. In fact I applaud her for it, she ought to go and see exactly who we're dealing with. Additionally, as some others have pointed out in other threads some Republicans have also recently visited Syria.

I think I made it quite clear that I wasn't on any crusade, as you call it. I was on the fence as to the applicability of the law. Until recently I had never heard of the Logan act and was frankly, intrigued by it.

It's not nonsense if a lot of people questioned it. Enough to even have a mention on http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/a/217569.htm

So are you all about stifling debate Jaysit? Don't want to have a conversation about the Logan Act? Who's on a crusade, Jaysit? Seems like the only one here without an open mind is you.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
jaysit
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 6):
So are you all about stifling debate Jaysit? Don't want to have a conversation about the Logan Act? Who's on a crusade, Jaysit? Seems like the only one here without an open mind is you.

Who's stifling debate?

In fact, I'm encouraging you to babble on about the "Logan Act." I love it when folks like you trot out desperate arguments from assorted rightwing Freepers on here. It makes more wonderful entertainment and spares us the bother of visiting all those poorly presented right wing sites. The Logan Act nonsense has been all over rightwing blogs desperate to try and make their boy king's reign on his creaky throne seem credible. However, if you bothered to engage in any form of research on the Logan Act instead of cutting and pasting off the Free Republica blogosphere, you wouldn't have brought the Logan Act argument on here because there is enough on Lexis Nexis, the Congressional Record, Law Journals, legal websites, International Law sites, the State Dept site, etc. (most, if not all, free sites) to show that this nonsensical accusation is just more Swiftboating in the toilet bowl.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
In fact, I'm encouraging you to babble on about the "Logan Act." I love it when folks like you trot out desperate arguments from assorted rightwing Freepers on here. It makes more wonderful entertainment and spares us the bother of visiting all those poorly presented right wing sites. The Logan Act nonsense has been all over rightwing blogs desperate to try and make their boy king's reign on his creaky throne seem credible. However, if you bothered to engage in any form of research on the Logan Act instead of cutting and pasting off the Free Republica blogosphere, you wouldn't have brought the Logan Act argument on here because there is enough on Lexis Nexis, the Congressional Record, Law Journals, legal websites, International Law sites, the State Dept site, etc. (most, if not all, free sites) to show that this nonsensical accusation is just more Swiftboating in the toilet bowl.

 checkmark 

...and I know Neil Peart has written lyrics condemning this sort of political bickering and grandstanding.  Wink
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Pope
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:42 am

This will go no where. There isn't a federal court in the country that would take up the claim as it is non-justiciable. This would only be the judiciary being interjected into a fight between the executive and legislative branches of government. I don't think you'd ever find a US attorney who would be willing to file the charge.

Furthermore, because it involves the Speaker of the House acting in her capacity as Speaker, the speech and debate clause give her huge protection.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:44 am

WOW!  Wow!
The sky must be falling!
Pope defends a Democrat!
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Pope
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
The sky must be falling!
Pope defends a Democrat!

Contrary to what you and Falcon like to write, I regularly defend democrats AND criticize the administration. Here there is nothing to defend. While I personally disagree with what the Speaker did here, I respect that her Constitutional Office gives her the right to do it.

I'm for upholding the Constitution, whether I agree with outcome or not.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Furthermore, because it involves the Speaker of the House acting in her capacity as Speaker, the speech and debate clause give her huge protection.

Surprised not many of you had mentioned this at all.

Saw the news days ago. Regardless of whether this was illegal or not (and frankly it does not matter to me), this is a major unreported faux pas by Pelosi that has been criticized by many.

When a dilettante takes on Hizbullah (Lebanon)

"We can thank the US speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, for having informed Syrian President Bashar Assad, from Beirut, that "the road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus." Now, of course, all we need to do is remind Pelosi that the spirit and letter of successive United Nations Security Council resolutions, as well as Saudi and Egyptian efforts in recent weeks, have been destined to ensure precisely the opposite: that Syria end its meddling in Lebanese affairs."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....n_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=81211

Has Pelosi Gone Bonkers? (Syria)

"The damage Speaker Pelosi is causing with her visit to Syria will be felt for many years to come."

http://www.reformsyria.org/index.php...content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=66

Olmert: We sent no message with Pelosi (Israel)

"Contrary to claims made by US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the Israeli government did not ask her to message Syrian dictator Bashar el-Assad that Jerusalem was willing to reopen peace talks with Damascus."

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/1868
 
OU812
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
"We can thank the US speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, for having informed Syrian President Bashar Assad, from Beirut, that "the road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus." Now, of course, all we need to do is remind Pelosi that the spirit and letter of successive United Nations Security Council resolutions, as well as Saudi and Egyptian efforts in recent weeks, have been destined to ensure precisely the opposite: that Syria end its meddling in Lebanese affairs."

You, Pope & others are spot on here!

Don't you just love how the far left libs give the benefit of the doubt to terrorists states. Yet, be so ruthless with their political counterparts over in the US. Countless partisan BS investigations & having no problem saying that conservatives are the cause of all the worlds problems. Yet, are incapable of seeing Syria & other terrorists states [which by the way are killing US soldiers in Iraq] for what they truly are - State Sponsors of Terrorism

These a-holes got it backwards. Plain & simple Pelosi is a Useful Idiot!!!

Can anyone please post the photo of Pelosi sitting next to the Syrian president, all bubbly & smiling. I want to throw up!

 vomit 

[Edited 2007-04-09 18:47:51]
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
However, if you bothered to engage in any form of research on the Logan Act instead of cutting and pasting off the Free Republica blogosphere

Interesting...

Considering I cut and pasted Wikipedia on the text of the law and the WASHINGTON POST. Those have been my only sources on this issue. Care to cite your sources as to my research habits?

You write this diatribe against me without reading a single word I wrote. You obviously made up your mind about me as soon as you read the title of the thread. Go ahead...show me anything I said about coming to a conclusion on this issue.

Way to show your open-mindedness. Good job.

You're so ready to jump down my throat with your left-wing rant, that you missed the opportunity to even try to change my mind.

Dtwclipper brought up an interesting point, and he backed it up.

You just showed everyone what a partisan you are Jaysit, seething with hate. Sad, really.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:25 am

Now that it is clear that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi DID NOT violate any laws, the usual suspects can get back to there normal partisan bickering.  biting 
Bring back the Concorde
 
Pope
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Now that it is clear that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi DID NOT violate any laws, the usual suspects can get back to there normal partisan bickering.

Sure. While we're at it can we agree that the President can fire any U.S. Attorney for whatever reason he wants including politics?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Now that it is clear that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi DID NOT violate any laws

I find it amusing that so many from the leftward leaning side of A.net are so quick to say there is no violation of the law on Nancy Pelosi's part when they CONTINUE to claim there was a violation of the law when Valerie Plame's name was leaked.

I'm willing to concede that just in that case in this there is no technical violation of the law. Nancy Pelosi may have drifted a bit too far in her zeal to as the Washington Post put it:

introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East. "We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace," Ms. Pelosi grandly declared.

But since her visit was sanctioned by the Administration, although the message wasn't, then technically Pelosi was on a "fact finding" mission.

But logically if you can say Pelosi didn't violate the Logan act, you ought to be able to see that according to the USC Title 50 Section 421 (Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources) When the CIA failed to actively protect her identity she wasn't "covert."

But I'm not trying to redirect the thread, just making a point.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Now that it is clear that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi DID NOT violate any laws

It would not matter that she did not violate any law, the fact remains as stated on the news story above.

1. Lebanon is not happy with her trip.
2. Olmert did not give her a message for Syria.
3. Syrian reformers state:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
"The damage Speaker Pelosi is causing with her visit to Syria will be felt for many years to come."

The issue is not whether she broke the law, but that many different sides have expressed opposition to her trip.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
It would not matter that she did not violate any law...

The thread starter was trying to accuse House Speaker Pelosi as 'violating the law'.
She clearly didn't break any laws.

Again if you guys want to bellyache about her comments, go right ahead. I already said that in reply #15.
Bring back the Concorde
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
She clearly didn't break any laws.

Would not matter, whether she broke the law or not I would say that most here would not support prosecution. But the thread clearly shows that her defenders are ignoring the news stories of the criticism of her trip. I mean, even the Israeli PM has clearly stated that the message that Pelosi gave to Assad in his name was 'misspoken', a more diplomatic way of calling her a liar.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):

Again if you guys want to bellyache about her comments

Bellyache would insinuate that we are the only ones complaining, and that is clearly not the case.
 
Mir
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
While we're at it can we agree that the President can fire any U.S. Attorney for whatever reason he wants including politics?

Sure. Can we also agree that while it is legally acceptable for him to do so, whether it is morally acceptable is another matter, especially when the Justice Department seems to have been trying to keep the real reason under wraps?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
The thread starter was trying to accuse House Speaker Pelosi as 'violating the law'.

No I wasn't.

I made it clear I was only bringing this up as a potential. I didn't accuse anyone. I was asking a question.

AndesSMF is right the issue of legality, I agree now is iffy, the wisdom of her trip is an entirely different matter.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
I didn't accuse anyone. I was asking a question.

...and you got your answer.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Would not matter, whether she broke the law or not.....

Well that's what UALPHLCS was asking.  Yeah sure

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
But the thread clearly shows that her defenders are ignoring the news stories of the criticism of her trip.

I guess you just don't get it. I am not going to bother myself with the specifics of 'what' she said. UALPHLCS questioned if the law was violated and it wasn't. UALPHLCS already got his answer. At this point it appears that you and UALPHLCS just want an argument for the sake of an argument. Does anybody ever agree when it comes to these redundant Middle-East threads?
Geez!
Bring back the Concorde
 
cfalk
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:01 am

I don't think she has violated the law. She has simply revealed herself to be a clueless idiot when it comes to foreign policy.

Nancy, do yourself a favor and stay home promoting open borders, therapy for convicted criminals instead of prison, and other such wonderful ideas that got you elected.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AirportSeven
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 17):
I find it amusing that so many from the leftward leaning side of A.net are so quick to say there is no violation of the law on Nancy Pelosi's part when they CONTINUE to claim there was a violation of the law when Valerie Plame's name was leaked.



Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
While we're at it can we agree that the President can fire any U.S. Attorney for whatever reason he wants including politics?

In my opinion we have here the crux of all of the political discussions that have been going on here and in other forums, internet and otherwise.

The current administration is adept at straddling that fine line between legal actions and illegal actions. But just because a course of action isn't illegal, that course of action isn't necessarily ethical.

Was leaking Valerie Plame's name in order to smear her husband for questioning the administrations claims about Niger and yellowcake uranium illegal? Apparently, it was not. Was it an ethical course of action for a presidential administration to take? In my opinion, not by a country mile.

Is the President within his rights when he fires eight sitting US attorneys in the middle of a term? Sure. As the White House has reminded us repeatedly, US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the President. But when an unprecedented number of US attorneys are fired in the middle of a term and the the President claims no knowledge of the firings and the US Attorney General falsely claims they were fired due to poor performance, has the administration upheld a moral imperative to operate transparently? Once again, in my opinion it is not even close.

And since we are on the subject of Pelosi's trip to Syria, maybe everyone would like to review Newt Gingrich's trip to China when he stepped waaaay out on the Taiwan issue. Also, let's revisit Dennis Hastert's visit to Columbia when he worked to undermine Clinton's foreign policy and urged the Columbian military to bypass the White House and talk directly to the then Republican-controlled Congress.

Anyhoo, good day to all, and may God preserve the Republic - Seven
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
At this point it appears that you and UALPHLCS just want an argument for the sake of an argument.

There is argument for the sake of argument Superfly and then there is debate. People can debate, and so long as it's not rancorous let them.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 24):
She has simply revealed herself to be a clueless idiot when it comes to foreign policy.

Apparently even the liberals are beginning to agree with you there.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
At this point it appears that you and UALPHLCS just want an argument for the sake of an argument.

Can we at least be in agreement that her trip did not do good?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
the usual suspects can get back to there normal partisan bickering.

I made a point of providing sources that are not partisan.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 25):
In my opinion we have here the crux of all of the political discussions that have been going on here and in other forums, internet and otherwise.

The current administration is adept at straddling that fine line between legal actions and illegal actions. But just because a course of action isn't illegal, that course of action isn't necessarily ethical.

Was leaking Valerie Plame's name in order to smear her husband for questioning the administrations claims about Niger and yellowcake uranium illegal? Apparently, it was not. Was it an ethical course of action for a presidential administration to take? In my opinion, not by a country mile.

Is the President within his rights when he fires eight sitting US attorneys in the middle of a term? Sure. As the White House has reminded us repeatedly, US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the President. But when an unprecedented number of US attorneys are fired in the middle of a term and the the President claims no knowledge of the firings and the US Attorney General falsely claims they were fired due to poor performance, has the administration upheld a moral imperative to operate transparently? Once again, in my opinion it is not even close.

And since we are on the subject of Pelosi's trip to Syria, maybe everyone would like to review Newt Gingrich's trip to China when he stepped waaaay out on the Taiwan issue. Also, let's revisit Dennis Hastert's visit to Columbia when he worked to undermine Clinton's foreign policy and urged the Columbian military to bypass the White House and talk directly to the then Republican-controlled Congress.

Anyhoo, good day to all, and may God preserve the Republic - Seven

 checkmark 
Well said.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 27):
Can we at least be in agreement that her trip did not do good?

 faint 
Bring back the Concorde
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
And since we are on the subject of Pelosi's trip to Syria, maybe everyone would like to review Newt Gingrich's trip to China when he stepped waaaay out on the Taiwan issue. Also, let's revisit Dennis Hastert's visit to Columbia when he worked to undermine Clinton's foreign policy and urged the Columbian military to bypass the White House and talk directly to the then Republican-controlled Congress.

Well said.

Not good enough, Fly. If we point out that something that this administration has done is the same as what Clinton did, you would not accept our logic. The same applies the other way around.

And the criticism still applies, as I did not provide ONE source of GOP criticism, but criticism from Lebanon, Syria, and Israel, to which you still have not provided a reply.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 29):
Not good enough, Fly

Well that's just tough. Sorry if you don't like my answers. Your buddy got his question answered.
Also that quote is from AirportSeven. I just simply agreed with him.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AirportSeven
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:39 am

I did not intend to engage in moral relativism by pointing out the trips taken by Gingrich and Hastert. You are right, AndesSMF, because it has been done by politicos on both sides of the aisle doesn't make it right, but those prior episodes might help everybody keep the current debate in perspective.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Sorry if you don't like my answers.

You haven't provided me one to respond to.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
I just simply agreed with him.

I know, but if I were to point out something that GWB did that was similar to something Clinton did, you would not accept that from me, and I would not accept that from you.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
"We can thank the US speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, for having informed Syrian President Bashar Assad, from Beirut, that "the road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus." Now, of course, all we need to do is remind Pelosi that the spirit and letter of successive United Nations Security Council resolutions, as well as Saudi and Egyptian efforts in recent weeks, have been destined to ensure precisely the opposite: that Syria end its meddling in Lebanese affairs."

I fail to see how Pelosi's comments work against previous UN and international efforts to help Lebanon. If you want to end Syrian influence in Lebanon, surely part of that mission has to involve going to Syria and convincing them to end their interference? Of course Damascus has to be involved!
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 33):
surely part of that mission has to involve going to Syria and convincing them to end their interference? Of course Damascus has to be involved!

No, they don't, and the UN has already said so. Damascus does NOT need to be involved, therefore "the road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus" is NOT required nor mandated, and any statement otherwise gives more weight to Syrian influence than they already have.

And the Lebanese already stated as much.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
Now, of course, all we need to do is remind Pelosi that the spirit and letter of successive United Nations Security Council resolutions, as well as Saudi and Egyptian efforts in recent weeks, have been destined to ensure precisely the opposite: that Syria end its meddling in Lebanese affairs.
 
OU812
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:53 am

The west has to some extent been engaging Syria & Iran for years. As a matter of fact, the EU took the lead role in dealing with Iran the better part of this decade. Well, where has it gotten them/us? Absolution no f-ing where! As we speak, the Iranian leader announced it had begun industrial-scale nuclear fuel production. Unfortunately, when dealing with terrorists states such as Iran & Syria, talking with them is a bit over rated. Showing repressive regimes like Syria & Iran weakness only emboldens them to do as they please. And Pelosi's trip, showed just that!

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=544292007

Iran announces "industrial" nuclear fuel work

By Parisa Hafezi

NATANZ, Iran (Reuters) - Iran announced on Monday it had begun industrial-scale nuclear fuel production in a fresh snub to the U.N. Security Council, which has imposed two rounds of sanctions on it for refusing to halt such work.

The announcement marks a shift from experimental atomic fuel work involving a few hundred centrifuges used for enriching uranium to a process that will involve thousands of machines.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 35):
Showing repressive regimes like Syria & Iran weakness only emboldens them to do as they please. And Pelosi's trip, showed just that!

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You're saying that because of Pelosi's trip to Syria (and let's not forget the Republicans who preceeded her by a few days), that led Iran to suddenly decide to develop industrial nuclear fuel?
International Homo of Mystery
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 14):
You write this diatribe against me without reading a single word I wrote

That's all he's capable of--don't even bother.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
OU812
Posts: 563
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 36):
t me see if I understand you correctly. You're saying that because of Pelosi's trip to Syria (and let's not forget the Republicans who preceeded her by a few days), that led Iran to suddenly decide to develop industrial nuclear fuel?

No!

Dealing with repressive regimes/terrorist states [ie syria/iran] as did the EU do with Iran & the Bush administration did years ago with Syria, did little to help matters in this part of the world. Did you miss Iran going into Iraqi waters & capturing the British soldiers? And Syria's meddling in Lebanon?

I wish it was as easy as offering a simple olive branch to these regimes. But unfortunately, it is not! Kissing their ass's & looking weak does very little to help matters. These 2 nations ask for so much, but give very little, if anything in return.

The EU delt with Iran for years in a very civil matter. Well, what good became of their efforts?

Zip!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 38):
Dealing with repressive regimes/terrorist states [ie syria/iran] as did the EU do with Iran & the Bush administration did years ago with Syria, did little to help matters in this part of the world

Okay, well you've only made two posts prior to this in this thread. One was to call Pelosi an idiot, and the other seemed to blame diplomacy for what Iran is doing currently.

What are your alternate proposals for how these situations should be handled?
International Homo of Mystery
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
What are your alternate proposals for how these situations should be handled?

Diplomacy only works when you have BOTH parties ready for a compromise, and any compromises made by Iran or Syria would be assumed to be weaknesses on their part and a danger to the continuation of their particular system of government. Western governments should give them great pressure to somehow compromise on their end, to show how weak they really are, instead of dithering about how to deal with them, as this only gives the apparency of strength on the part of Iran and Syria.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
Western governments should give them great pressure to somehow compromise on their end, to show how weak they really are, instead of dithering about how to deal with them, as this only gives the apparency of strength on the part of Iran and Syria.

Okay. What are your alternate proposals for how these situations should be handled?
International Homo of Mystery
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
What are your alternate proposals for how these situations should be handled?

The West (mostly referring to NATO countries) should learn that they are dealing from a position of strength, both economic and military. After all, current migration trends tend to these countries for a reason. The West should learn to stand together against any type of subpar performance from many couuntries, as they can easily affect the fortunes of a country thru economic means alone. There is no real reason to deal or complain much about past deeds, as most, if not all countries, have periods that they wish to forget. We can only deal with present and affect the future.

The only real example I can show is how we successfully deal with situations with our children. When we both stand together against anything they do that is not beneficial to them or us, the perceived threat of punishment or retaliation is most often enough to make them stop.

Unfortunately, the West, as do many other governments or anything that involves group decisions, has a terrible history of doing just that.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 42):
The West (mostly referring to NATO countries) should learn that they are dealing from a position of strength, both economic and military.

So threaten boycotts (which have a questionable history) or military action (which have questionable histories as well)? I'm trying to boil this down to specific actions that should be taken. Not platitudes.
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andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 43):

Ban gasoline imports into Iran, that should stop them quick. Announce overt support to the opposition of the mullahs, that would be even quicker.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
No, they don't, and the UN has already said so.

To me, that seems as silly as trying to reduce illegal immigration without talking to Mexico, or to combat terrorists in Iraq without talking to Iran. At the very least, don't we have to send someone to Damascus to say, "Hey, f*** off""?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
andessmf
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 45):
that seems as silly as trying to reduce illegal immigration without talking to Mexico

But we don't talk to the Chinese about Mexican illegal immigration.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 45):
or to combat terrorists in Iraq without talking to Iran

But Iran IS involved with Iraqi terrorism.

The people of Lebanon are attempting to rid themselves of Syrian influence, and saying that peace in Lebanon goes thru Syria is against what the majority of Lebanese wish, the removal of Syrian meddling,
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 46):
The people of Lebanon are attempting to rid themselves of Syrian influence, and saying that peace in Lebanon goes thru Syria is against what the majority of Lebanese wish, the removal of Syrian meddling,

Here's my logic. Syria supports, in some fashion, Hezbollah. Hezbollah is one of the agents that often disrupts the peace in Lebanon. Therefore, it is in the interest of the Lebanese peace process for the Syrians to stop supporting Hezbollah. This requires talking to Syria.

I'm sorry, but I have to call you on your comparison to China. Syria has been involved in Lebanese politics for so long now that getting peace in Lebanon requires dealing with the Syrians, if only to convince them to butt out. Can't end Syrian meddling just by ignoring it.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
Syria has been involved in Lebanese politics for so long now that getting peace in Lebanon requires dealing with the Syrians, if only to convince them to butt out.

We are getting into the simple semantics of what was said, because as the story states, Lebanon peace goes thru Syria. Syria has nothing to offer except to butt out, but the story implied that Syria was being offered other options.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Pelosi In Violation Of The Logan Act?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 44):
Ban gasoline imports into Iran, that should stop them quick. Announce overt support to the opposition of the mullahs, that would be even quicker.

Okay, so a Cuban style blockade, and an Iran-Contra redux. Didn't work the first time, don't think it'd work this time.
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