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BMIFlyer
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Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:14 am

Iran can now produce nuclear fuel on an industrial scale, President Ahmadinejad has announced, in a move likely to further strain tensions with the West

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6538957.stm

Hmm, is this just propoganda, or does he really mean it?

If this is true, isn't it time for action?

Initially, I don't think a military strike would be a good idea, but there must be someway we can stop this surely....
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jetjack74
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):
Hmm, is this just propoganda, or does he really mean it?

If this is true, isn't it time for action?

Ahmadinejad is hell-bent on acquiring nuclear weapons. If he isn't stopped, he will use them.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):
Initially, I don't think a military strike would be a good idea, but there must be someway we can stop this surely....

Initially, maybe not, but if it turns out he is developing nuclear weapons, a military strike maybe the only option, at least destroy what he has, and what is accessible by a targeted strike.
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cedarjet
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Ahmadinejad is hell-bent on acquiring nuclear weapons.

Yes indeed, and with the US having invaded and occupied neighbours on either side (Iraq, Afganistan), who can blame him? If I was Iranian, I would be begging my government to get a suitable deterrent so we aren't invaded and blown up too.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
If he isn't stopped, he will use them.

On the other hand, this is an absurd premise. Iran has never attacked or threatened another country. (And before you start, his line about wiping Israel off the map - well, who do you think translated it? A Bush appointee in the State Dept? Nooo, never! A more accurate translation would be, "The Israeli regime should be written out of the page of history.") Btw for those worried about Ahmadinejad, he's not the head of state, and he wouldn't have his finger anywhere near 'the button' - that's Grand Ayatollah Khamenei. Plenty of countries, far less stable than Iran, have the bomb. The only country to have used it against a civilian population is the USA. So surely they should be disarmed before they dictate to anyone why should have it and who shouldn't.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
a military strike maybe the only option, at least destroy what he has

You would never destroy any country's arsenal just by dropping bombs. Especially dropping them on wedding parties, as is the USA's habit.

I don't think anyone should have the bomb. But with the US acting so threatening and belligerent, and occupying neighbouring countries, Iran needs a deterrent - fast.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
You would never destroy any country's arsenal just by dropping bombs. Especially dropping them on wedding parties, as is the USA's habit.

Horsehockey. Pure flamebait, pure BS, pure nonesense and you know it. Habit? Perhaps you need an English dictionary to look up the word. Here's a habit for you: You're consistently anti-American posts. Now THAT is the appropriate use of the word habit.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
Yes indeed, and with the US having invaded and occupied neighbours on either side (Iraq, Afganistan), who can blame him? If I was Iranian, I would be begging my government to get a suitable deterrent so we aren't invaded and blown up too.

Yeah, well - as screwy as some of you THINK the US might be - we're not about to start nuking anyone. If I were you - and thank God I'm not - I'd be more worried about the nut jobs in North Korea and Iran . . . . one of which has already publically asserted their desire to eliminate Israel. How easy that would be with a nuke or two, eh?

Get a grip.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
I don't think anyone should have the bomb. But with the US acting so threatening and belligerent, and occupying neighbouring countries, Iran needs a deterrent - fast.

Iran wouldn't NEED a deterrent if they weren't out of the box on this whole Nuclear fiasco. Did that ever occur to you?
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FDXmech
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
The only country to have used it against a civilian population is the USA. So surely they should be disarmed before they dictate to anyone why should have it and who shouldn't.

Ignorance is no way to make a point. For goodness sakes man, you've got the Union Jack next to your name, learn its history.
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Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
Yes indeed, and with the US having invaded and occupied neighbours on either side (Iraq, Afganistan), who can blame him? If I was Iranian, I would be begging my government to get a suitable deterrent so we aren't invaded and blown up too.

Yeah, well - as screwy as some of you THINK the US might be - we're not about to start nuking anyone. If I were you - and thank God I'm not - I'd be more worried about the nut jobs in North Korea and Iran . . . . one of which has already publically asserted their desire to eliminate Israel. How easy that would be with a nuke or two, eh?

Actually, ANC there is some logic to his point, though not from a "let's slag of the US" perspective. It's an unfortunate side effect of the last few years that extremist regimes are concerned that they might well be kicked out of power. Self-preservation being their number one interest, how best to ensure there is no prospect of a coalition of nations, viz. Gulf War Mk I, sitting on their doorstep ready to kick the living daylights out of them? Answer, acquire nuclear weapons. This is the problem, once they've got them, they're safe, and it's one reason why a regime like the one in Iran would like them.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
andessmf
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):

Excellent point!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
Actually, ANC there is some logic to his point, though not from a "let's slag of the US" perspective.

There's no logic. It's the typical anti-US ranting from Cedarjet . . . .

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
It's an unfortunate side effect of the last few years that extremist regimes are concerned that they might well be kicked out of power

No one seems to be threatening to go kick Syria's ass. I don't see a great big Army sitting on Mugabe's doorstep. There's no Naval Invasion Force sitting off the Coast of Myanmar . . . . last I checked, my friend, those "Extremist Regimes" tend to be quite ruthless . . . . either in their own back yard (Myanmar for example), or in someone elses (Syria vis a vis Lebanon).
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
No one seems to be threatening to go kick Syria's ass. I don't see a great big Army sitting on Mugabe's doorstep. There's no Naval Invasion Force sitting off the Coast of Myanmar . . . . last I checked, my friend, those "Extremist Regimes" tend to be quite ruthless . . . . either in their own back yard (Myanmar for example), or in someone elses (Syria vis a vis Lebanon).

No, but you're not thinking from the perspective of a pariah nation. There remains the possibility that, like Iraq, if you push too far then the US and others could well come and get you. If you have nuclear weapons, that's not going to happen. That's exact;y why North Korea made such efforts to get them; without them they are vulnerable, with them, let's be honest, they are not. Had Saddam possessed nukes, do you really think the invasion would have gone ahead? I'm not so sure. It's the irony of deterrence, and the point of them working for us to deter rogue states also applies the other way around, I'm afraid.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
tz757300
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Here's a habit for you: You're consistently anti-American posts. Now THAT is the appropriate use of the word habit.

I think someone still has some animosity toward the US since the Red Coats lost the war. Pity.  Yeah sure

I do think a nuclear Iran is a pretty scary thing. With the situation of crazy Ahmadinejad still in office wanting nuclear weapons, having any kind of nuclear development spells trouble for the area.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
If you have nuclear weapons, that's not going to happen.



I tend to think it will make it more likely to happen. More difficult, yes. But certainly more imperative to nip it in the belated bud.
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Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 9):
I think someone still has some animosity toward the US since the Red Coats lost the war.

Took you apart in the return leg though.  Wink

Anyway, I'm with you on this one.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 10):
I tend to think it will make it more likely to happen. More difficult, yes. But certainly more imperative to nip it in the belated bud.

My view would be that they're vulnerable during the period when they try to obtain them, but not once you actually have them. I don't claim any special knowledge on this, but it does seem to me that attacking a nuclear armed state is virtually out of the question for fear they'll use them.
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tz757300
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Took you apart in the return leg though

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead and think that.  Silly
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
My view would be that they're vulnerable during the period when they try to obtain them, but not once you actually have them. I don't claim any special knowledge on this, but it does seem to me that attacking a nuclear armed state is virtually out of the question for fear they'll use them.

My fear is that they'll use a couple nukes as guaranteed cover to build more and put us in an ever precarious situation. They'll either use them, proliferate them or more likely use them as nuclear blackmail. All of these situations totally unacceptable.
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tz757300
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 13):
proliferate them

Thats probably the most scariest thought right there. Ok, if its just Iran pbtaining nukes, that fine, we'll deal with it. But if Iran spreads the wealth and we don't know about it, thats just pure danger to the world's security stability. A very big no no, if you ask me
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
No, but you're not thinking from the perspective of a pariah nation.

I suspect not.

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
If you have nuclear weapons, that's not going to happen.

Actually, I think it would happen faster. Knowing there's a screwball in charge, and knowing that said screwball has his finger on the nuclear button would be a greater incentive for an invasion (by whomever) than leaving the screwball to self-destruct - or at least leave status quo.

I may be wrong.

Doesn't excuse the usual inflammatory anti-US rhetoric - laced with inanities such as "habitually blowing up Wedding Parties" by Cedarjet.
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andessmf
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:58 am

The initial issue is that the attempt to eliminate these situations is that it causes more problems at the beginning. Of course, the initial problems caused pale in comparison to the problems it would have for other states to have nuclear weapons.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 13):
All of these situations totally unacceptable.

But yet there are people willing to accept them. IF Iran is successful in obtaining a nuclear weapon, be ready to see a nuclear arms race in the ME start.
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 12):
Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Took you apart in the return leg though

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead and think that.

That was done to death in another thread a while back. But the popular history in the US is something of a myth, put it that way - though I'm happy to discuss with you on IM if you really want to!  Wink

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 13):
My fear is that they'll use a couple nukes as guaranteed cover to build more

Actually, I suspect not. Having nuclear weapons is one thing, but actually using them really will bring the world down on them, because of the fear that they would do so again. At that point, you'd have to take action, but as long as there's just a potential threat, you wouldn't.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
I may be wrong

Maybe. Or maybe right. There are endless numbers of analysts around the world trying to work these things through, but no-one has all the answers.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
tz757300
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
IF Iran is successful in obtaining a nuclear weapon, be ready to see a nuclear arms race in the ME start.

Is it possible we could see another Cold War start brewing because of this?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
IF Iran is successful in obtaining a nuclear weapon, be ready to see a nuclear arms race in the ME start.

Well, it's a tad late for ME Nuclear Arms race.

Israel has them.

Iran will have them.

Pakistan has them.

India has them.

Seems to me the race is already well and truly running.

Quoting Banco (Reply 17):
Having nuclear weapons is one thing, but actually using them really will bring the world down on them, because of the fear that they would do so again.

IF there's anyone in the world - of consequence - left to come down on you.

Quoting Banco (Reply 17):
There are endless numbers of analysts around the world trying to work these things through, but no-one has all the answers.

 checkmark 
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Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
IF there's anyone in the world - of consequence - left to come down on you.

A country like Iran (for example) isn't going to have hundreds to pop off around the world in a single strike the way the highly complex arsenals of the US, Russia or even Britain and France could, should they take total leave of their senses. They'd only be able to fire one or two. horrendous prospect, but we wouldn't (at least in the initial instance) be talking the end of the world
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 17):
Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 13):
My fear is that they'll use a couple nukes as guaranteed cover to build more

Actually, I suspect not. Having nuclear weapons is one thing, but actually using them really will bring the world down on them,

You misunderstood my point, sorry. I meant "use a couple" not in the context of exploding them but utilize them to cause paralysis of any response while they build more.
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Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 21):
You misunderstood my point, sorry. I meant "use a couple" not in the context of exploding them but utilize them to cause paralysis of any response while they build more.

Gotcha. Yes, I agree.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Well, it's a tad late for ME Nuclear Arms race.

India has them.

Seems to me the race is already well and truly running.

India is not in the Middle East.

Our weapons program predates that of all the others mentioned, with operational capability dating back to the 1960s.

The drive for the nuclear deterrent did not have any of them in mind, but focussed on the People's Republic of China, and still does.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
You would never destroy any country's arsenal just by dropping bombs. Especially dropping them on wedding parties, as is the USA's habit.

Interesting comment coming from some whose country firebombed Dresden.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 2):
But with the US acting so threatening and belligerent, and occupying neighbouring countries, Iran needs a deterrent - fast.

Ah yes, and tell when was the last time the US invaded an embassy and took the diplomats hostage for 444 days. If an embassy is sovereign soil diplomatically speaking, Iran has invaded the US more than the US has invaded Iran.

I swear comments like this make me feel like the isolationists have a point.

I'd love to pull out of everywhere, and everything. Let the world go to hell in a hand-basket while the rest of the world asks us to "re-engage."

Let the Europeans handle it. They are closer. If the Iranians toss a nuke, most likely it'll be Europe that gets hit.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
India is not in the Middle East.

Yes I know. I was waiting for someone to point that out.

However, your missiles could easily become part of the fray . . . and therefore, you ARE a player.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
I swear comments like this make me feel like the isolationists have a point.

I'd love to pull out of everywhere, and everything. Let the world go to hell in a hand-basket while the rest of the world asks us to "re-engage."

Let the Europeans handle it.

The penalty the leading power must always pay. To be fair, Britain has had several hundred years "handling" such things.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
However, your missiles could easily become part of the fray . . . and therefore, you ARE a player.

That applies to the US as well. So you too are a player, if anything, based on the strained US-Iran relations and the deployed air/land/sea based forces in the vicinity, much more so than India. In any case, we don't have a tiff with either Iran or Israel. They're both our friends. And the Pakis ? Well, as long as they don't lob anything at us, neither will we; our fundamental emphasis is fast economic development.
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 27):
Well, as long as they don't lob anything at us, neither will we;

India is a democracy. It makes a big difference in terms of how people view the matter.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
India is a democracy. It makes a big difference in terms of how people view the matter.

Absolutely. The public will not support initiation of any military engagement with anyone else today. However, it will require the government to respond punitively in retaliation to unprovoked aggression against us (e.g. against the Pakis in 1999).

Portraying us as a player in the Middle East is ridiculous; we're at best a status quo-ist observer who has good economic and military ties with multiple parties - Israel and Iran included. Our own priorities are entirely about our economic growth,and our deterrence posture is directed at our northeast, not westward.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 26):
The penalty the leading power must always pay. To be fair, Britain has had several hundred years "handling" such things.

Yeah and they did a bang up job didn't they.

Palestine, Afghanistan, Africa, Iraq...good show.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 30):
Yeah and they did a bang up job didn't they.

Palestine, Afghanistan, Africa, Iraq...good show.

You want a pissing contest about it?

Grow up. Attitudes like that are exactly what provokes the kind of comments you were complaining about.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
baroque
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 13):
My fear is that they'll use a couple nukes as guaranteed cover to build more and put us in an ever precarious situation. They'll either use them, proliferate them or more likely use them as nuclear blackmail. All of these situations totally unacceptable.

If this is not so good, then why did the US allow the Pakistan genie to escape the bottle. The US discouraged the Europeans from pursuing A Q Khan, one can only presume because of the manic obsession with getting what are now the Taliban, the Al Qaeda and the warlords to beat the Russians in Afghanistan. By many measures Pakistan is a more unstable and extreme regime compared with Iran. Just check the number of bombings in Pakistan since say 1980 and now and compare it with Iran. Until the US invented the Iraq problem, Pakistan lead the bombings league table for decades.
I am sure it will be interesting for someone to sit there in 2027 writing responses to a thread on blowback from the campaign to contain Iran at the turn of the century. Remember the law of unintended consequences, just because you dont know what they are, does not mean they will not be real - aacchhhh, now you have me sounding like Rumsfeld (again).

Quoting Banco (Reply 26):
The penalty the leading power must always pay. To be fair, Britain has had several hundred years "handling" such things.

If you took a vote around the world, I dare say they would vote for Europe to handle it.

While the US is hyperventilating about the nuclear program, remember that Iran's formal position is that it is for power generation. Between being ready for power generation and nuclear bombs there are many stages, and many ways of knowing that the products can go to weapons. For many reactor types, the plutonium is not suitable for weapons. And reactor grade U235 will not make much of a bang.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
Grow up. Attitudes like that are exactly what provokes the kind of comments you were complaining about.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because your right they are the kind of comments I complain about.

Seems to me that a lot of Europeans have very short memories or don't pick up history books terribly often. There a whole group of people who seem to think that the US has been responsible for every evil since 1776. In point of fact, after World War II with help from the United States, Europe was for once a peaceful place.

They've been killing each other in Europe pretty consistently for 3000 years. 60 years of peace and they are ready to blame the US for intimidating other countries.

When was the last time Europe was united? Oh that's right when they launched the Crusades against... oh, the Muslims. The only time before that was under Roman Empire.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 27):
That applies to the US as well.

Never disputed that.

Countries like the US, the UK, China, Russia - as examples - are players globally.

Further:

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
India is a democracy. It makes a big difference in terms of how people view the matter.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
While the US is hyperventilating about the nuclear program, remember that Iran's formal position is that it is for power generation

Yeah, like North Korea?! Please, tell me you don't buy that malarkey?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Banco
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 33):
In point of fact, after World War II with help from the United States, Europe was for once a peaceful place.

It was for most of the 19th century too. You see, the same point about not picking up history books can be levelled the other way. A lot of people find it hard to grasp that for virtually all the century, the US was basically irrelevant in world terms.

The same basic rule applies to both Pax Britannica and Pax Americana, that they were and are far from perfect, and have done some pretty bad things, but that in both cases, better that nation than any other.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
andessmf
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):

The same basic rule applies to both Pax Britannica and Pax Americana, that they were and are far from perfect, and have done some pretty bad things, but that in both cases, better that nation than any other.

The perspective some here seem to forget about. Regardless of the past, the world is still a much better place from the contributions of the UK/US.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
If this is not so good, then why did the US allow the Pakistan genie to escape the bottle.

Are you even familiar with the story? Because saying that is nothing but a blatant lie.

Let me give you a quick reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.Q._Khan
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:17 am

Did you forget about the Napoleonic Wars, the Finnish War, Mexican and South American Wars of Independence, Greek War of Independence, Anglo-Burmese War, Russo-Persian War, French invasion of Algeria, The Carlist Wars in Spain, Opium Wars, Crimean War, The Indian Rebellion of 1857, The Chincha Islands War, The Austro-Prussian War, The Franco-Prussian War, The Russo-Turkish War, The Anglo-Zulu War, The Boer Wars, The Sino-Franch War, Italo-Ethipoian War, and the Spanish American War.

I left out all 19th Century Wars I could find that did NOT involve a European Power. There might have been about 6 of those.

So while Britain only fought in Europe during the 19th century 3 times or so you guys where pretty busy elsewhere.

My point is just this. Look at how Europe just in the 19th Century screwed up the world, and the people of Europe have the gall to blame the US?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 37):
My point is just this. Look at how Europe just in the 19th Century screwed up the world, and the people of Europe have the gall to blame the US?

Maybe we should stick to Iran and Nuclear Fuel/Weapons and forget about the 19th century, eh? That is afterall the topic of the conversation.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
connies4ever
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):
Hmm, is this just propoganda, or does he really mean it?

From the perspective of someone in the nuclear business, I think irna is a ways away from having an industiral capacity. A proof of concept, lab-scale capacity, most likely. They need to scale up from a couple dozen centrifuges to at least a thousand and likely many more. They require constant support -- it's not like turning on a diesel and letting it run forever.

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
Actually, ANC there is some logic to his point, though not from a "let's slag of the US" perspective. It's an unfortunate side effect of the last few years that extremist regimes are concerned that they might well be kicked out of power. Self-preservation being their number one interest, how best to ensure there is no prospect of a coalition of nations, viz. Gulf War Mk I, sitting on their doorstep ready to kick the living daylights out of them? Answer, acquire nuclear weapons. This is the problem, once they've got them, they're safe, and it's one reason why a regime like the one in Iran would like them.

 checkmark  Tend to agree .. having a bigger stick is usually a good defensive tactic.

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Took you apart in the return leg though. Wink


Also quite right. Us colonials siezed what is now Maine. Should have kept it.  biggrin 

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
Ah yes, and tell when was the last time the US invaded an embassy and took the diplomats hostage for 444 days. If an embassy is sovereign soil diplomatically speaking, Iran has invaded the US more than the US has invaded Iran.

True enough, but did Iran ever try to topple a democratically elected government in the US and install the SHah ? No wonder there is so much resentment of the US (and Britain) in Iran, after what the Shah did to his own people.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
If this is not so good, then why did the US allow the Pakistan genie to escape the bottle. The US discouraged the Europeans from pursuing A Q Khan, one can only presume because of the manic obsession with getting what are now the Taliban, the Al Qaeda and the warlords to beat the Russians in Afghanistan. By many measures Pakistan is a more unstable and extreme regime compared with Iran. Just check the number of bombings in Pakistan since say 1980 and now and compare it with Iran. Until the US invented the Iraq problem, Pakistan lead the bombings league table for decades.

Quite agree, Baroque. Pakistan worries me much more than Iran. It is likely to fall down in chaos at any time. I can't see Musharraf surviving long. The Iranian mullahs seem remarkably conversative in contrast. Let's try to remember that Mr Ahmedinajad is not in charge.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2586
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):
Never disputed that.

Countries like the US, the UK, China, Russia - as examples - are players globally.

So why did your original list of dominos end with India at the start ? That list is incomplete. Here's how it happened in reality:

Israel has them.

Iran will have them.

Pakistan has them.

India has them.

PRC has them.

Russia/USSR has them.

US has them.


The 'race in the ME', as you call it, started with you, not us. Misleading arguments aren't going to help the US deal with the Iran crisis, or for that matter in Iraq.
 
baroque
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
Let's try to remember that Mr Ahmedinajad is not in charge.

Indeed he is not. But let us count to the next post that assumes he is. Big grin  Wow!
 
EK156
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:23 pm

How come there is no fuss being made about Israel having them and there is alot of fuss being made about Iran or North Korea having them? Also North Korea was never under alot of threat to be invaded but Iran is now completely surrounded. I personally believe non of the countries in the world should have nukes but why does the US decide who should and who shouldn't have them?

Why is there no resolution against all the other countries that have them?

If you are my friend then you can have them... and a few of you are my very special friends and you will always get an automatic VETO at the UN so don't worry...but....... if you are not my friend then I will KICK your A$% for even considering having them? Is it like that?

Personally I think Europe should handle the issue with Iran but since the US has a massive army at the doorsteps of Iran then Europe's role has been diminished!

This situation keeps on hampering the economic efforts of the surrounding countries to pick up pace and get back into shape... when will this end? Never I guess.... or maybe when the role of World Super Power is passed on to the next state or nation in line!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
Quite agree, Baroque. Pakistan worries me much more than Iran. It is likely to fall down in chaos at any time. I can't see Musharraf surviving long.

Im sure the Big Democracies in the region have a backup plan to avoid the Nuclear button reaching the wrong hands in case of a coup.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:29 pm

The key to dealing with the Iranian situation, IMO, is to find a way to appeal to the western oriented, youth-culture-oriented people of Iran, the majority of which are under 30 and are culturally aligned more with America and Europe than with Islamic religious leadership.

If the young majority of Iran were calling the shots there, none of you would have any problem. How to accomplish this I do not know.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 43):
This situation keeps on hampering the economic efforts of the surrounding countries to pick up pace and get back into shape... when will this end?

Quite true that American (and historically European) meddling has only served to inflame the situation, and this should be stopped. HOWEVER, the other side of the solution is that certain Islamic countries and groups in the ME should accept their neighbors and stop exporting terror.

Cairo
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 41):
So why did your original list of dominos end with India at the start ?

Just a random order . . . no need to get your feathers ruffled. Not everyone here has an agenda. Take a breath.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 45):
If the young majority of Iran were calling the shots there, none of you would have any problem. How to accomplish this I do not know.

 checkmark 

Can't recall if I read this or watched it, but the younger majority in Iran is quite progressive. Not nearly as hardline as the older generation.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
Quite agree, Baroque. Pakistan worries me much more than Iran. It is likely to fall down in chaos at any time. I can't see Musharraf surviving long.

Im sure the Big Democracies in the region have a backup plan to avoid the Nuclear button reaching the wrong hands in case of a coup.
regds
MEL

Unless you like high odds Mel, you would not want to put a lot of money on that. I don't think they (we??) have a plan to deal with 20 million irritated locals let alone 180 mill of them. And they will be in an especially irritable mood having been knocked out of the World Cup by the Irish of all countries!!  Wow!  Wow!

Just playing the devils advocate, Mush dies in a plane crash tomorrow, the ISI puts one of their goons in charge, prepares for war with India and indicates it will sell nukes to Iran without strings attached. What happens next? Couple of heart attacks in Wash and London, not to mention Delhi, but not much else I suspect. India is not going to pre-empt, or is it? Not recommeded I think because you would leave your flanks open to you know who!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
I don't think they (we??) have a plan to deal with 20 million irritated locals let alone 180 mill of them.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
playing the devils advocate, Mush dies in a plane crash tomorrow, the ISI puts one of their goons in charge, prepares for war with India and indicates it will sell nukes to Iran without strings attached

On the Contrary.The Locations of the Nuclear Weapons is the concern not the population.With the weapons following in the wrong hands could be the worst possible senario especially for the US too.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Iran 'enters New Nuclear Phase'

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 48):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
playing the devils advocate, Mush dies in a plane crash tomorrow, the ISI puts one of their goons in charge, prepares for war with India and indicates it will sell nukes to Iran without strings attached

On the Contrary.The Locations of the Nuclear Weapons is the concern not the population.With the weapons following in the wrong hands could be the worst possible scenario especially for the US too.

Frightens the Willies out of me. Compared with that, old Ahmad is a walk in the park.

Surely the population AS WELL AS the location of the Pakistan nukes is a concern, I can see some pretty wild policies actually having popular support (50%+1) which is probably not likely the case in Iran.

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