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NWA742
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 95):
Thing is, he's not alone by a longshot.

Same concept could be applied here-- plenty of Christian leaders have publicly dissociated themselves with Phelps&Co; but how many have actively spoken and taken action against his message per se, as opposed to just decrying the venues wherein he and his people choose to deliver it?

 rotfl 

Give me a break, Concordeboy. Just about everytime we hear about these morons, everybody unites against them. What about the large group of bikers who show up to block them? I bet a good number of them are Christians.

What more do you want? And do you really need that confirmation that they have nothing to do with mainstream Christianity, or do you just not know that much?




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 99):
Its more a case of what hasn't been said, on here and in public. Phelps and his family/cult have been protesting and harassing gays for years, long, long before they truly came into the public eye. It was the very fact that no one in the 'mainstream' was paying attention to them that caused them to move their focus from funerals of people who died from AIDS to the more visible demonstrations that has everyone riled up today. Very few publicly condemned their actions when they stuck to the gays. So from that side of the coin, its not too hard to make correlation that its not the message, its how they go about spreading it.

Your entire post contradicts itself. A lot of people didn't condemn Phelps and Company at first BECAUSE THEY DIDNT KNOW WHO THEY WERE. In other words, you're complaining that people weren't condemning something that they did not know about, which makes zero sense. When the Phelps first started their movement, they weren't getting a lot of public attention. You even said that yourself. The Phelp's then shifted their focus to something that would get them attention (at which, they succeeded) and now the public is learning what an asshole Phelps is and that is why they are condemning him now.

And then there's the whole point that I haven't seen too many people say Phelps was right when he was only protesting at the funerals of gays or those who died of AIDS.

[Edited 2007-04-18 00:04:15]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
searpqx
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 101):
When the Phelps first started their movement, they weren't getting a lot of public attention. You even said that yourself.

You missed the point by a mile - you're right, no one knew about it, but that was because it wasn't reported widely. I assure you that there were plenty of press releases and attempts by the gay community to bring it to broader attention, but for the most part it wasn't picked up by the mainstream media. It was 'only the gays', so it wasn't deemed important enough to spend much air or print time on. Even his protesting at the funeral of Mathew Sheppard got limited exposure, and it certainly didn't prompt calls for laws restricting protests at funerals.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 101):
And then there's the whole point that I haven't seen too many people say Phelps was right when he was only protesting at the funerals of gays or those who died of AIDS.

And again, there weren't a whole lot saying he was wrong either. When he staged a protest in Seattle many years ago, it actually did get a fair amount of coverage in the local press. But there was a resounding silence from the pulpits on the matter that particular Sunday. In fact, there was even a minister who said that while he didn't agree with their tactics, he could understand where they were coming from.

That is the point that is trying to be made - no one argues that the vast majority think his methods are abhorrent, but the gay community is under no illusion that there aren't a number of people, who to one extent or another, agree with the basic concept of his message.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 98):
I think basing your opinions of all Christians from the couple or few that agree with Phelps is ridiculous.

Even more so is the fact that you completely missed the forest for the trees in that assessment.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 99):
its not too hard to make correlation that its not the message, its how they go about spreading it.

Bingo!  checkmark 

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 100):
Just about everytime we hear about these morons, everybody unites against them.

This isn't really that difficult, but here, let's dumb it down for you a little further:
YOUR STATEMENT:
"Just about everytime we hear about these morons, everybody unites against them"

MY QUESTION:
Exactly WHAT is "everbody" uniting against-- the fact that they're mindlessly desecrating gays, or the fact that they're crashing funerals to get maximum exposure for what they have to say? Hmm...
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 103):
Exactly WHAT is "everbody" uniting against-- the fact that they're mindlessly desecrating gays, or the fact that they're crashing funerals to get maximum exposure for what they have to say?

Did you read the posts about my encounter with these people?

It wasn't at a funeral.

I was at the Second Inaugural.

Show me one sentence in my fierce denunciation of these people where I mentioned that the location of there protests is the problem.

I hate everything there is about his message. He's wrong about gays He's wrong about 9-11, he's wrong about the Military the Guy is just F-cking WRONG. He's twisted religion into something about hate when it's about love.

He's no better than the Nazi Party, and I have never thrown that epithet out lightly.

Your paint with as broad a brush as Phelps and wrap yourself in the same sanctimonious BS that he does. Because the both of you are SURE you are right.

Your ignorance is no better than his. He and his followers are just more obnoxious.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 104):
Show me one sentence in my fierce denunciation of these people where I mentioned that the location of there protests is the problem.

...better yet, show me where I emphasize location over venue.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 104):
Your paint with as broad a brush as Phelps and wrap yourself in the same sanctimonious BS that he does. Because the both of you are SURE you are right.
Your ignorance is no better than his.

Get real. I asked how many take the step of decrying his message in addition to his methods, and I stand by that.

You've done thus-- good for you, seriously. Now show me a tangible source which depicts any "Christian leader", self appointed or otherwise, doing the same. Need time? ...I'm prepared to wait, will probably need to.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
NWA742
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 103):
This isn't really that difficult, but here, let's dumb it down for you a little further:
YOUR STATEMENT:
"Just about everytime we hear about these morons, everybody unites against them"

MY QUESTION:
Exactly WHAT is "everbody" uniting against-- the fact that they're mindlessly desecrating gays, or the fact that they're crashing funerals to get maximum exposure for what they have to say? Hmm...

Listen, I'm no expert on Christianity, and it's obvious that you aren't either - but I do know that mainstream Christians, although most may object to homosexuality - they tend to have stronger abilities of loving and forgiving rather than hating and objecting.

So as to answer your question, oh wondering one - could it perhaps be BOTH? I know people who don't approve of homosexuality, but I also know that they would never hate someone for who they are. They might not like it, but they would end up loving instead of hating, forgiving instead of objecting.

So there you have it - I think most people, whether tolerant of homosexuality or not, object to these radicals in the ways they hate AND the ways they spread their message.




-NWA742

[Edited 2007-04-18 03:58:36]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 102):
You missed the point by a mile - you're right, no one knew about it, but that was because it wasn't reported widely. I assure you that there were plenty of press releases and attempts by the gay community to bring it to broader attention, but for the most part it wasn't picked up by the mainstream media. It was 'only the gays', so it wasn't deemed important enough to spend much air or print time on. Even his protesting at the funeral of Mathew Sheppard got limited exposure, and it certainly didn't prompt calls for laws restricting protests at funerals.

So you blame Christians instead of the media for this? Way to go.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 102):
That is the point that is trying to be made - no one argues that the vast majority think his methods are abhorrent, but the gay community is under no illusion that there aren't a number of people, who to one extent or another, agree with the basic concept of his message.

Thinking homosexuality is wrong (not saying I do, but I will agree some Christians do though I wouldn't put them in a majority) and thinking "God Hates Fags" (Phelp's message) are two different things. Phelps and Company is a different world entirely than mainstream Christianity. I wouldn't even call Phelps and Company Christians.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 106):
could it perhaps be BOTH?

Perhaps it could, and maybe is... though little reason to conclude such, considering the overwhelming amount of tangible evidence that "mainstreamers" decry his method/venue-choice, but barely a shred of such when it comes to "uniting against" the actual message itself.

Take his stance on Katrina for example-- sure no one else delivered it in the fashion of Westboro; but Falwell, Dodson, Robertson, Swaggart, and even friggin' Haggard are all on record of basically agreeing with Phelp's assessement on the Storm's cause. Point being-- how many "amen"s do you think were said after that, hmm?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 106):
I know people who

You might, but not everyone associates in whatever socio-religious circles you do or do not patronize. Ergo, they might not "know people who..."

But if it's still truly that difficult for you to step outside of the comfort zone of your own relative experiences, and whatever logic may result from them: I suggest trying this for yourself. A simple Google (etc) search will yield dozens of opponents to Phelp's style of delivery in any venue--- now find (and post) more than one with any manner of non-gay Christian leadership figure (self appointed or not, representative or not) opposing the message core itself.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
searpqx
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 107):
So you blame Christians instead of the media for this? Way to go.

Show me where I blamed anyone, let alone Christians? My point, for the third time, was that it wasn't a big deal to the rest of the country, until he took his protest show on the road to soldier funerals and the like. Now the rest of the country sees him for the crazed fanatic we've always known he is.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 107):
Phelps and Company is a different world entirely than mainstream Christianity. I wouldn't even call Phelps and Company Christians.

Again, show me where I've made any other claim? Phelps is a sick excuse for a man, representing only himself and the few twisted relatives he keeps about him. I don't know a soul, Christian or otherwise that would defend him. But I do know, people at most wrote him off as a harmless lunatic when he confined himself to protesting at gay funerals. Now that he's dishonoring fallen soldiers he's big news. His message hasn't changed, just his method. Put yourself in the gay communities shoes and do the math - what other conclusion is there?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 109):
My point, for the third time, was that it wasn't a big deal to the rest of the country, until he took his protest show on the road to soldier funerals and the like. Now the rest of the country sees him for the crazed fanatic we've always known he is.

Yes, and so now that people are finally realizing who this guy is, they're speaking out against Phelps.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 109):
Again, show me where I've made any other claim?

Um, right here:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 99):
So from that side of the coin, its not too hard to make correlation that its not the message, its how they go about spreading it.



Quoting Searpqx (Reply 102):
That is the point that is trying to be made - no one argues that the vast majority think his methods are abhorrent, but the gay community is under no illusion that there aren't a number of people, who to one extent or another, agree with the basic concept of his message.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 109):
Show me where I blamed anyone, let alone Christians?

Right here:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 102):
And again, there weren't a whole lot saying he was wrong either. When he staged a protest in Seattle many years ago, it actually did get a fair amount of coverage in the local press. But there was a resounding silence from the pulpits on the matter that particular Sunday. In fact, there was even a minister who said that while he didn't agree with their tactics, he could understand where they were coming from.



Quoting Searpqx (Reply 109):
Now that he's dishonoring fallen soldiers he's big news. His message hasn't changed, just his method. Put yourself in the gay communities shoes and do the math - what other conclusion is there?

And again: Blame the media for that then, not Christians. I had no idea who Phelps was until about a year and half ago or so.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
NWA742
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
Perhaps it could, and maybe is... though little reason to conclude such, considering the overwhelming amount of tangible evidence that "mainstreamers" decry his method/venue-choice, but barely a shred of such when it comes to "uniting against" the actual message itself.

What actual message, ConcordeBoy? In case you didn't notice, they aren't out there simply saying homosexuality is wrong. They take it many steps further - overall, they are hating on homosexuals, and hate is not something that mainstream Christianity practices, regardless of your perception of what people are objecting against when we hear about these extremists.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
Take his stance on Katrina for example-- sure no one else delivered it in the fashion of Westboro; but Falwell, Dodson, Robertson, Swaggart, and even friggin' Haggard are all on record of basically agreeing with Phelp's assessement on the Storm's cause. Point being-- how many "amen"s do you think were said after that, hmm?

I'd assume not many. Again I'm no expert, but I believe most consider individuals like Robertson and Falwell as quite hardcore/extreme bible thumpers - and you're extremely naive if you group the majority of Christians in with that group.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
You might, but not everyone associates in whatever socio-religious circles you do or do not patronize.

I never said nor implied that, Concordeboy - it was a simple example.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
But if it's still truly that difficult for you to step outside of the comfort zone of your own relative experiences

  

 

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
I suggest trying this for yourself. A simple Google (etc) search will yield dozens of opponents to Phelp's style of delivery in any venue--- now find (and post) more than one with any manner of non-gay Christian leadership figure (self appointed or not, representative or not) opposing the message core itself.

Edit, rephrase:

The message core, Concordeboy? What do you think his "message core" is? Is it simply homosexuality is immoral? Or is it more along the lines of "Fags are evil, I hate all fags, fags kill soldiers and cause everything bad in this country."

Personally I think the answer is obvious. Again, let's look at "message core" between mainstream Christianity and the WBC.

Mainstream Message Core - Homosexuality is immoral, but can be forgiven, Christianity is about love and forgiveness

WBC - Homosexuality is not only wrong - it's evil. All fags should die. Fags cause everything bad in this country.

Can you not see the difference?

Why is it not a given to you that mainstream Christianity doesn't share the core message of the WBC? Personally I don't need any reassurance from Christian leaders of this fact. Why do you? What is your motive in continously trying to establish a valid connection between these groups?




-NWA742

[Edited 2007-04-18 06:15:44]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
searpqx
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 110):
And again: Blame the media for that then, not Christians.

And again, where am I blaming anyone - I'm stating what's happened and whats happening. If you want to read blame into that, thats your prerogative I guess. The fact remains, Phelps was ignored, not unknown, ignored, until he changed his tactics. That is a fact. I've provided background, you draw your own conclusions.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
galapagapop
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 103):

MY QUESTION:
Exactly WHAT is "everbody" uniting against-- the fact that they're mindlessly desecrating gays, or the fact that they're crashing funerals to get maximum exposure for what they have to say? Hmm...


 checkmark 


When a Phelps thread pops up 9 times out of 10 it's merely about protesting at funerals. A disgraceful practice regardless of religion. But that has more to do with human contact and basic human emotions than beliefs. You can say it has to do with religion, but religious guidelines all stem from basic human nature in fair treatment and then go downhill from there. Also NWA please don't discern the fact that many either on A.net and in real life feel the same as the Phelps one way or another on many issues (not necessarily all at once). I don't see the flood gates opening in support for gay marriages in the US, now do I? The Phelps' degree of expression of how they feel about said issue is different than many most of ours, but the message is pretty much the same, it's just unlike the Phelps many of us have manners, political correctness, less passion for the issue, or any other possible variable. The reason the Phelps are on the A list of ass muffins is because their form of protest is an issue. 9-11 conspiracists don't protest as funerals, Eco warriors don't protest at funerals and the Democrats don't protest at funerals. The Phelps do, but like the rest mentioned they are all spreading a certain mainstream or nonmainstream message that we either agree or disagree on.
The problem here however indefinetly stems from their venue of free speech rather than the words that they speak.
 
NWA742
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 113):
Also NWA please don't discern the fact that many either on A.net and in real life feel the same as the Phelps one way or another on many issues (not necessarily all at once).

I want to see one member here who has stated one or more of these things:

1. That he/she hates gay people
2. Gay people are the cause of everything bad that happens in the world
3. Being gay is evil
4. Being gay should be a capital offense
5. All gays should die and burn in hell

Give me one member, just one.

Sure there are members here who consider homosexuality as immoral - but that is an extremely far-fetched and vague connection to the WBC Church, and it really means nothing. Hell by that logic, I could say many members on here feel the same way as Hitler did or Osama did just by connecting a single trait. It's bullshit.




A further note to Concordeboy as well:

I understand your argument and your point of view - I can see how you notice a lack of clear condemnation of the WBC's views rather than the way they express them. However you must remember that they are considered as an independent hate group. Whenever I hear people objecting to them - they aren't even considered as Christians because they practice hate.

Perhaps that's why many don't feel a need to say "FYI, we don't agree with this hate group's ideology." They are so far out there, It's just too obvious, IMO.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
777236ER
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting LogansGirl (Reply 88):
The twist to what you're saying, 777, is the Christian message is twisted. The Jewish god was a tribal, jealous god. Christianity is based on that message while trying to give a very different message of love and peace. Yes there are a lot of Christians with very conflicting thoughts and beliefs. However, believing someone is going to some imagined place of torture for the rest of eternity is just a belief. As long as they care about that, they are likely to say it out loud sometimes. I understand it is a negative thought of ill will. Phelps is not having negative thoughts. He is making completely asinine comments and actions in a very loud way, which is rude and infringes on the civil liberties of others. If they think God hates everyone so much, why do they give a crap whether or not the Hated get it? God's still going to Hate, according to them.

The twist to what I'm saying really is that a lot of people take a lot of what's said in the Bible as allegory and metaphor, so they can put whatever spin they want on it. Consider that you're a middle-class, middle-aged loser with a wife you can't stand and kids you don't really like and a job you hate. How nice to know that by virtue of all these things you hate, you're going to heaven, whilst you condemn an unseen enemy. That's the mentality I think a lot of Phelps' followers have.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 90):

There is a big difference in the Catholic Church's "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner" attitude,and the hate espoused by Phelps. Can the Catholic Church disagree with people, and not HATE them. I not only think they can they do.

'Hate the Sin, not the Sinner' is a cop out. Imagine if a religious group hated the fact you had a wife or girlfriend you loved, hated the fact you had sex with her, hated the fact you had kids with her. It hated the life style you lived, hated your 'agenda' and hated you holding hands, kissing and cuddling. When an organisation publically (and repeatedly) condemns something so intimate then the lines between 'sin' and 'sinner' are blurred.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 93):
But God sent Hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans for its residents' sinful ways? Just further proof that Phelps is a nutter.

But why? God sent floods in the past to punish sinners, why not now? The Phelps have one interpretation on the Bible, but each church on Earth has another interpretation.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 94):
Only God can determine who will go to hell.

But the church decides who is condemned as a 'sinner' here on Earth.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 94):
Christians do not "wish" anyone to go to hell.

I'm not sure this stands up. God 'loves' us all, yet is quite happy to hide himself from us and allow us to commit sins (even create us with the ability to sin), then allows us to go to hell. God is in our image, so his concept of love can't be that different from mine. If I loved someone, I mean truly loved them, I wouldn't send them to hell for any crime, even if they didn't love me back. This essentially shows God's supreme absolutism, a trait which Christians should surely follow.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 96):
why do you feel the need to pick on four members in particular?

They were the first four I found when I did a search.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 114):
they aren't even considered as Christians because they practice hate.

Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC. If they're a hate group for condemning homosexuals to hell, aren't most Christian churches hate groups?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:06 pm

To those who claim Phelps' message is so different from mainstream conservative Christianity, consider this.
1) According to just about every Christian out there, sin is evil, especially conscious sin.
2) According to the Christian right, homosexuality is a sin, and a conscious sin at that (at least to those who haven't realized that gayness isn't a choice, which is a lot of people).
3) Ergo, even if gays are otherwise great people, in the eyes of the Christian right, they are committing evil acts, regardless of whether the individual Christian decides to love them regardless or condemn them, as WBC does.
4) "Mainstream" (aka right-wing) Christian theology holds that if you commit sins and do not repent of them, you go to hell.
5) Therefore, it doesn't matter whether or not gay people are forgiven by people, because humans don't do the final judging. If they don't repent and try to stop their sinning, they will be sent to hell.
6) In the eyes of liberal Christians, a loving God would not send anyone to a life of eternal suffering. The only thing that could motivate God to do such a thing would be hatred. Therefore, left-leaning Christians tend to perceive that fundamentalist Christians believe that God hates gayness, if not gay people.

If you don't think this is what many Christians, especially of the more fundamentalist persuasion, believe, please tell me where you think I went wrong.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:10 pm

Yeah with that kind of attitude why don't you hold your breath too.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108):
Falwell, Dodson, Robertson, Swaggart, and even friggin' Haggard are all on record of basically agreeing with Phelp's assessement on the Storm's cause. Point being-- how many "amen"s do you think were said after that, hmm?

Not one of them is from the largest Denomination in the US. They may be able to reach a large audience because of their TV shows and the like but that doesn't translate to a majority following.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
hate is not something that mainstream Christianity practices

Bingo.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 114):
I can see how you notice a lack of clear condemnation of the WBC's views rather than the way they express them. However you must remember that they are considered as an independent hate group. Whenever I hear people objecting to them - they aren't even considered as Christians because they practice hate.

You forgot to add that Concodeboy's must remember that all Christians are not in the Phelps camp.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115):
Imagine if a religious group hated the fact you had a wife or girlfriend you loved, hated the fact you had sex with her, hated the fact you had kids with her. It hated the life style you lived, hated your 'agenda' and hated you holding hands, kissing and cuddling.

There is a religious group like that. They hate the fact that I can demonstrate the love I have for my wife in public. They hate the fact that my wife can drive a car, leave the house without a male escort. They consider her naked if she doesn't cover her face and her hair with a veil. It's called Islam, and the Fundamentalist version of it has actually attacked western countries because of this hate.

Now look and see how a minority of one religion reacts to hate. They act on it. They attack their targets. And the Majority says nothing, or barely nothing.

Contrast that with the tiny minority of Fred Phelps. And how the Christian majority attacks him, even on this board.

Concordeboy and 777236ER you don't like Christians because you think that they only hate Phelps because he protests funerals.

Fine. It's obvious no amount of reason will change you mind of that. However, when Hitler had to be stopped, people went to war. Some fought him because he was anti-communist. Some fought him because he was anti-freedom. Some fought him because he was anti-semetic, Some simply fought because he was going to kill them, or take their homes.

Point is the motives behind fighting Fred Phelp's hate isn't important. The fact that people don't like his message is. Right now you have Christians decrying Fred Phelps. That puts them on your side. People you claim who are anti-gay see just where that kind of thinking leads and are discussed by it. Painting those people as just as bad as Phelps will lose your cause potential allies.

I hate Fred Phelps Group and his message. It's disgusting to me. By lumping me in with his group simply because I don't agree with you, isn't going to make me agree with you, it turns me off to you message.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
I never said nor implied that, Concordeboy - it was a simple example.

might wanna read that one again, as I never accused you of stating nor implying anything

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
The message core, Concordeboy? What do you think his "message core" is? Is it simply homosexuality is immoral? Or is it more along the lines of "Fags are evil, I hate all fags,

Both

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
fags kill soldiers and cause everything bad in this country."

Wrong. They claim that the non-gay populace's tolerance of them is what prompts God to allow "everything bad".
Simple but significant difference between that and what you just stated.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
Why is it not a given to you that mainstream Christianity doesn't share the core message of the WBC? Personally I don't need any reassurance from Christian leaders of this fact. Why do you?

Because in the (rather expectant) event that you aren't sharp enough to have already figured it out: I was raised in an enormous congregation that'd agree with 99% of Westboro's message, sans its presentation.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111):
What is your motive in continously trying to establish a valid connection between these groups?

...don't have to try all that hard

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115):
Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC.



Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 117):
Not one of them is from the largest Denomination in the US.

...yeah, they're only #2, with a few dozen million.

[Edited 2007-04-18 17:08:13]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 118):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115):
Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC.


Source please.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 119):

Source please.

...k, now that's a rather ridiculous request don'tya think-- as it's just a little tough to display what isn't there  Yeah sure

But it works well the other way around (just swap "Christian Leader" with "Church"), so in the event you missed it the first time:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 105):
You've done thus-- good for you, seriously. Now show me a tangible source which depicts any "Christian leader", self appointed or otherwise, doing the same. Need time? ...I'm prepared to wait, will probably need to.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 120):

Listen I've just about had enough.

You don't like Christians.

I get that. We all do. You're a bigot. I've given you the opportunity to see that portraying all Christians as agreeing with Phelps' message as not helping your cause.

You don't want to do that.

Maybe the reason people don't like you Concordeboy isn't because you're gay. It's because your a self-righteous bigot.

you sit at your computer and complain that EVERYONE who believes, hates gays. Evidence to the contrary is all around you, but still All Christians believe the same thing to you.

Guess what the Nazis played the same rhetorical tricks against the Jews, painting them all the same.
Phelps does the same thing painting all Gays as sinners.
You do the same thing painting all Christians as haters.

You no better than they are. In fact you're worse. Because while Everyone condemns Phelps and Hitler. no one dares to condemn you.

Well I do.

I'm disgusted with hate, and demagogues of any stripe. I particularly don't like hypocrites and Concordeboy you are the worse kind of hypocrite.

I've said my piece this thread is no longer about Phelps. It's about Concordeboy and his bigotry. We can do that in another thread.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 78):
Yes, I agree entirely. If a God exists I would hope he wouldn't care about who you had a consenting relationship with. But that's beside the point: it's clear in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination, and many if not most Christians think it is a sin.

where does it say that? Please tell me. I never chose to be the way that I am, and I do not care how many ignoramus - know it all Christians say otherwise. Did God drop down and appoint you to be universal supreme commander? Did God appoint you to condemn me? WELL

, in a 2000 year old book, which has been manipulated and translated of 10,000 times, yes , I am sure that is the word of God. Please just one passage which says homosexuals are going to hell. Do not read me something which can be argued and INTERPRETED as though they are, show me the passage which says they are ! .

For someone to believe in such foolishness really does not deserve to breathe. If a few members of Fred Phelps family were mowed down at Virginia Tech, i guess it would be because they are fag enablers, therefore must be burning in hell? God gave each and every one of us the gift of life, knowing what we will become. I am living proof that homosexuality is not chosen. Therefore, the bible thumping , GOD HATES FAGS, protests, really have no meaning, and just demote a group of people because of difference. Judge and be Judged.

I contribute and make the lives of those around me more positive. It is impossible to tell that I prefer the company of males. As for which, is NOBODY elses business. If you care so much about someone elses life... the way they LIVE their life, the way God made them, then you are virtually disagreeing with your .... God's decision. I am not a flaming homosexual, parading around like I have no manly hood, however the physical attractions themselves are NOT chosen. It is time for people to mind their own damn business, shut their holes, and not worry about what someone else may have which is different. Should the special needs and disabled burn in hell as well? If I am condemned to hell by your magical God then ok. I have my own beliefs, my own outlooks. I was raised as a Catholic, and I know that if this garbage from the WBC was true, God would be striking homosexuals down , now the innocent ones who are living the "right" life, as the WBC would say.

JUDGE AND BE JUDGED

[Edited 2007-04-18 18:17:50]
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:25 am

I can see that your argumentative abilities (*chortle*) have fully run out of steam, but oh well, I'll play along.....

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121):
Listen I've just about had enough.

So why then do you continue interacting?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121):

You don't like Christians.
I get that. We all do.

....you're so far in left field on that one that you're coming back around from the right!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121):
You're a bigot.

I could be very accurately accused of bigotry against a certain religion yes, but Christianity isn't the one.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121):
Maybe the reason people don't like you Concordeboy

...ya mean like here for example:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 120):
ConcordeBoy *** RR: 70

If not, what other examples did ya have in mind?


Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121):
you sit at your computer and complain that EVERYONE who believes, hates gays.

*BULLSH!T ALERT*
I have not stated, hinted, or implied (much less complained) that everyone who believes hates gays... and I CHALLENGE you to show otherwise.

[Edited 2007-04-18 18:27:53]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 122):
where does it say that? Please tell me.

Some would say Leviticus 20:13 would be the optimum example... though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 124):
. though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.

well gay sex comes with the life...
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 125):
well gay sex comes with the life...

...not necessarily. You'll actually find growing numbers of celibate religious gays who realize that they are what they are, but choose to abstain from having sex lives in order to comply with their beliefs.

I know plenty who've tried it, and some even maintain (almost always female). Most have failed, and went through horrific depression during the experience; myself included.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 124):
Some would say Leviticus 20:13 would be the optimum example... though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.

..... exactly, many would argue it ... but IT DOES NOT DIRECTLY SAY IT OR EVEN TOUCH ON A SOLID CONCRETE ANSWER ! The WBC is all pure evil interpretation
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Fred Phelps: God Hates America. Court: Suck It!

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:36 am

This thread has degenerated into personal attacks and he jumped the shark. It's done.
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